Fasting: I find it easier to "not eat" than to "eat less"

John Suavecito wrote:Trace Oswald says, "No carbs, you can live a long healthy life. "

That is exactly what the evidence is showing is not true.  You have decided to dismiss one study. Many people dismiss studies when they don't like the conclusion. Keto can lead to a short-term, rapid weight loss.  No one disputes that.  It's not healthy in the long run.  It's not one study.   The evidence is overwhelming that a plant-based whole foods diet leads to a long healthy life.  The history of civilization shows that. How many Blue Zones feature keto diets? Zero. People get addicted to high calorie food hits, just like they get addicted to drugs, sugar, processed foods, and flour.   I have no problem with people going keto, I just don't want people to be steered away from a much healthier diet, without hearing the evidence and deciding for themselves.  

Joel Fuhrman, Neil Barnard, Dean ornish, Michael Greger, and others have compiled numerous studies on this material.
https://nutritionfacts.org/
https://www.drfuhrman.com/health-concerns

John S
PDX OR

I'm dismissing the study that recently came out showing that low carbs diets increase your risk of death.  I'm not dismissing it because I don't like the conclusion.  I don't have a vested interest either way.  I'm dismissing it because it is a poorly done study.  As far as evidence showing that you can't live a long healthy life without carbs, the most extensive studies showing this have been done on the Inuit and they are readily available, and harder to dismiss than the study I mentioned earlier.  Again, I have no vested interest either way, I've just come to a different conclusion than you have.  Many people, especially vegans it seems, have an almost religious zeal over diet.  I'm just not one of those.  I just try to eat what we give me the best quality of life.  I judge that by tracking what my blood test numbers show during my physicals.  If the numbers improve, I assume I'm on the right track.  If they get worse, I assume I need t make changes.  I'm not trying to convince anyone otherwise, I just don't think it's as simple as plant based diet = good, low carb, meat-based diet = bad.

I only have my own numbers and results to look at.   I've been low carb for 20 years.   I've been keto for 5.   I've been intermittent fasting for just 6 months.  

My bloodwork looks great and my GP says my kidney and liver values are that of someone a decade younger.  

I'm not the least bit worried.   They have a bit of hard time diagnosing my joint pain struggles since I don't have any inflammation markers in my bloodwork,  another purported benefit or a fat-based metabolic process vs. carb-based.   Turns out bursitis was a culprit and PT has resolved it, but it took a long time to figure out.  My dentist, fwiw, was also blown away by my first exam in close to 15 years.    I had to replace some worn fillings from childhood, but that was it.   They asked a lot of questions about my oral health routines.   IMO,  no sugar and low carb gets all the credit for that,  since what I know from my genetics would not support that being a strong factor.   I realize this is anecdotal, but for me at least, I know what a difference it makes in my day to day life and I've done my research.   Everyone needs to decide for themselves in the end.  

Clearly, you can eat vegan junk food.  Soda, candy, oreos, snack foods are largely vegan and terrible for one's health. I agree with you on that.  I have met and am married to a vegan who is not obsessive at all.  I have encountered very dogmatic vegans as well, and I try to avoid those vegans.  I have also heard from many who insist that keto is the only solution.  I don't listen to them any more either.  Dr. Greger has a video about the Inuits and their short life span if you're interested.  Keto may be the best solution for those living in the Arctic.  I don't live there.  I guess we'll just have to find the evidence that gives us the best direction and go with it.

The evidence I've seen is that some will do better with a more vegetarian/vegan lifestyle and that others will do better with more of an omnivore lifestyle. I'm not saying "I have the truth!" It's just my best guess based on the evidence I've seen.  I do think that the details matter, and that how those details apply in your life matter a lot as well.  My wife complains because I change my diet based on what I've read and what I'm trying.  Anecdotal evidence is valuable too, because we know that an individual isn't pushing some corporate advertising hype. They're just sharing their story.

John S
PDX OR

Maybe the best approach is to grasp mainly from the things we agree on.  I think most people would agree that processed foods, refined sugar, preservatives, artificial sweeteners, food colorings, excessive alcohol, meat that is full of injected hormones and antibiotics are all bad.  It may be that just eliminating those is the 95% factor.  Maybe John wants to eat vegetables and fruit almost exclusively, and Heather and I want to eat lots of meat with some vegetables, and maybe no matter which you do, it only makes the 5% difference.  I know very healthy people that eat little meat, and I know very healthy people that eat lots of meat.  My ex-BIL Roy is one of those.  He doesn't do it to follow any particular diet, he just doesn't like fruits or vegetables.  I've seen him eat potatoes and other than that, I don't recall him eating anything except meat in front of my ever.  Last time I ate at his house, his wife went out and caught one of their free range chickens, butchered it, and it was our dinner.  As I said, I've never seen him eat anything except meat, but I've also never seen him eat anything that came from a package, can or bottle (except beer, he likes beer).   He doesn't eat processed garbage ever as far as I can tell.   I think we are well designed by evolution to eat a wide range omnivorous diet.  I don't think we are designed to eat a lot of processed shit-food.  Maybe a 90-95% solution is good enough.

I am someone who read about how eating food that is all whole food from plants is really so healthy and working effectively against epidemic diet related diseases and problems to health and wellbeing, and I turned to this way, while I had been vegan for some while and just not knowing if there was really anything healthy about that. I would really doubt that I am just one of the lucky ones who is not having any problems from this way I learned was healthy, as I do hear from some others. Why would I act on something that I learn is good for me and benefit just from being lucky with it? I would not choose anything for having to be lucky with it. The same for other things I benefit from that others say I was lucky and those things don't work for others. No, I am not at all a lucky person. Nothing has worked by luck and things going by chance have created great problems for me, informed choices only have been helpful to me.

It happens that this healthy way I found is with what can be growing for that, and I could have it with land where I would be growing everything for it, and this would be so sustainable a way to live, with simplicity in living included. So land for doing this is what I look for, with any others I can be with included in this.

I am looking to talk to anyone who has helped their cancer stop growing, spreading or eradicated it completely through fasting or other means. I have gone the conventional way and am going through it again. I am stage 4 b. Any advice will be greatly appreciated.

Anne, welcome to the forum.

I have no personal experience though I thought these threads might help.  If you have seen them then maybe the threads will help other folks:

https://permies.com/t/1742/reports-beating-cancer-week

https://permies.com/t/143154/cure-childhood-cancer-projects

https://permies.com/wiki/143178/Podcast-Projects-Cure-Childhood-Cancer

https://permies.com/t/32423/Food-Cure-documentary-cancer

Revisiting this topic while currently learning about 'autophagy' research and findings.   Cool stuff.  If it's a new concept for you,  basically during times of fasting your body judiciously begins to recycle older broken down amino acids, etc.  cleaning up the effects of aging, oxidation, injury, etc.   This is purported have a lot of healing health benefits.  I can say I find I have way less loose skin than you might expect with this much weight loss.  Can't say the same for new wrinkles ;)  

I'm 6 months in to my fasting journey and this has become an easy lifestyle now.   Many days I'm naturally OMAD with maybe a snack of nuts, or a handful of berries browsed while I'm gardening, etc.   I'm steadily losing about 4-5 lbs a month, but I'm almost at my weight goal so that may slow down.   At 52 I have more lean muscle than I ever have in my life, it's really interesting.   More than just weight loss or feeling good my shape is very different than it's ever been,  even when I was running, lifting weights, etc.   In good ways.  But pilates is new to me also and I suspect that has as big a role.   I'll update next time I have bloodwork done ;)

I did a first deliberate 24 hour fast as a test run for wanting to try a 36 hour.    Usually I daily do around 18 hours, with a heavy cream 'cheat' in my morning coffee.

Anne Cline,
I would check out the medicinal herbs forum.  https://permies.com/f/9/medicinal-herbs
Also "Chris Beat Cancer" and "The Truth About Cancer".
There are many resources out there.  Dr.  Joel Fuhrman has written a lot about both fasting and what foods decrease cancer.
Fasting helps people to tolerate chemotherapy better.  Also, as said, autophagy in fasting kills cancer cells and helps your immune system spot them.
When you fast, you get proper stomach acid for killing unhelpful aspects of your food, and it helps you get the proper nutrition, which makes you stronger.
Cancer is a metabolic disease.  I would highly recommend this book, Mercola's #1 book of that year: Tripping over the Truth, by Travis Christofferson.

https://www.thriftbooks.com/w/tripping-over-the-truth-how-the-metabolic-theory-of-cancer-is-overturning-one-of-medicines-most-entrenched-paradigms/19408879/item/27898112/?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=pmax_high_vol_scarce_%2410_%2450&utm_adgroup=&utm_term=&utm_content=&gclid=Cj0KCQjwtO-kBhDIARIsAL6LorciDbkIVj-FBuppR5B5ecT9QkAt4UrtgYg4jQbhFGLoEhMo4hWhnJYaAl0nEALw_wcB#idiq=27898112&edition=13212699


John S
PDX OR

I figured it was time to post an update on my intermittent fasting journey. I can't remember the last time I did this, so to briefly recap: in 2018 I got plantar fasciosis and couldn't run/walk/hike and I gained a lot of weight, going from size 12 to size 14 and then at the end of the year I was going to have to buy size 16. 1/1/2019 I started with OMAD and effortlessly dropped the weight. It worked beautifully until 3/15/20 or so (when COVID shut everything down). Then I slowly regained all the weight (but stayed in my size 14 pants, so some of it was muscle) despite continuing to eat one meal a day.

I spent time being frustrated, and then in the summer of 2023 I stopped doing the same thing every day. I eat all the meals on Sunday, no full meal on Monday (I tend to have a "fasting mimicking" meal that is less than 400 calories, like kimchi and some hummus), one meal on Tuesday, fasting mimicking on Wednesday, one meal Thursday, one meal Friday, two meals Saturday. That is harder but did stop the weight gain.

I started lifting weights and I think that helped quite a bit. I am now taking "BodyPump" group weight lifiting to music classes two days a week at 24Hr Fitness. I'm going to yoga twice a week as well. The BodyPump is great, I recommend it highly. I've been doing that for a few months and I've been able to increase the weights that I put on the bar. The class is hugely diverse in age, size, race, body type and I find that inspiring.

I've done a 9 day fast, I lost weight but gained it back. In August I did a 7 day "fasting mimicking" thing prior to colonoscopy. So, I did the micromeal every night, like just blueberries or kimchi or watermelon and that time I lost a few pounds and kept them off, like, it reset my baseline weight (my starting point in 2019 is now my goal weight, that and staying in my current wardrobe with size 14 pants). So I'm telling myself I'm going to do that again, but we still have duck from Thanksgiving and I want the duck ravioli my kid is making tonight so I'll see when I can do it!!

I guess TLDR - OMAD works really well, but maybe not forever. You can never go wrong with resistance training.

Having had luck with water fasting, I understand the "easier to not eat, than to eat less."
I am a grazer 3 meals and snacks and multiple coffees with high calorie content. But I can also stop cold turkey on coffee and eating.
My longest fast was 20 days, and to sympathize with the gal from 5 or 6 years ago in this thread, "nausea and feeling sick" are part of the game. If she only put up with it for a few more hours she would have reached the other side.
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Upton Sinclair (some famous person from long ago) wrote a book and said the same thing your title says when he was asked, "Can't you just eat less?"

The upside of having a yard full of healthy food is I get great, nutritious food almost for free.  The downside is that I just eat too much.  I continue to find that I need to fast in order to not get too fat.  The discipline of it definitely helps.  When I'm not working (I'm mostly retired now), I find I need to make an extra effort to fast.  Fasting while working is easy for me.  I am just very busy, so I focus on that. When I'm not working, I go out in the yard and graze, or stare into the refrigerator.  It probably sounds rather shallow to say that my wife is such a great cook, that it's hard for me to resist.  That's why committing to fasting works for me.

John S
PDX OR

I wonder what everyone is doing now that it's six years later!  I was recently diagnosed with diabetes, even though I thought I was doing everything right.  I had eaten only whole foods and avoided processed food and the "white" foods like sugar, flour, potatoes and rice. I rarely had a drink and I grow a lot of my own food.  Even my doctor was stymied.  I decided that I didn't want diabetes (!) so I started looking around on the internet where I stumbled across Dr J. who is a cardiologist and just amazing.  I've been binge-watching his videos because he explains so clearly the process of fasting and what it does within your body.  He knows his stuff.  There are a lot of posers out there.  One guy ran a clinic where he supervised people fasting and sold his supplements...I wonder what his daily rate was!  When asked he couldn't field the questions with any true understanding.  I went back to Dr. J. and a few others who seemed to know the physiology and science behind it and who could explain it clearly so that the audience could also understand.  I learned that many small meals keeps your insulin up and soon your body becomes resistant and rather than shuttling the energy in food to my cells, it was being put into storage as in fat storage.  I've put a few links below.

I started with the 18:6 a few weeks ago, and found it remarkably easy.  I was a snacker, but it was something to do while watching TV, not hunger! I then started OMAD or one meal a day.  Not hard. Then, I tried a 24 hour fast.  I've done that about three or four times, and it too, was quite easy.  Even before, I used to put breakfast off until 10-11, so eating, let's say lunch, skipping dinner, going to bed, and not needing to eat until lunch wasn't too much of a stretch.  Today, I just finished a 48 hour fast.  I was pretty hungry, so I let myself have an early dinner--done by 5:30 and done for the day. Tomorrow, I'll be back to OMAD, and hopefully, I can put that meal off until the 24 hour mark!  

When I want to eat, I just think about all of the good it's doing inside me not to eat for a longer window.  I have heart failure and high blood pressure, obesity, arthritis, brain fog, and now diabetes among other possible things.  Fasting helps all of those. I will put a link here in case anyone comes back to this page.  I truly believe that Dr. Pradip Jamnadas saved my life.  He is very entertaining and easy to watch!  I've started taking notes, so that I can reference them if I want to review the information quickly.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZazbYHmq4I&lc=UgwmcDWQnZk7BryStt94AaABAg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gryta3KZKU4&t=256s

I was recently diagnosed with diabetes and have had heart failure for a number of years.  Not really a big surprise, being I'd been pre-diabetic for a few years and have always been overweight.  I asked my doctor if there was any way to reverse it, and she said no, and that it was progressive.  I was not willing to settle for that.  The thought of losing a limb or going blind terrifies me, so I started to do some research.  I soon stumbled across a video by Dr. Jamnadas, who is a cardiologist in FL and prescribes fasting to many of his patients as a way to help rid the body of diabetes, heart issues, as well as treat the gut microbiome and a multitude of other issues. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gryta3KZKU4&t=256s

Much has been learned about diet and food since this post began, but I was very excited to try fasting after seeing the above video.  I, too, find it easier to go without than to try to limit how much I eat. I will admit not eating for such long stretches did have me nervous, but he talks about easing into it by starting with a whole food diet, going on to skip one meal a day, and then two before leaping into a 72 hour fast perhaps once a month. I had always eaten well, using lots of fresh fruits and vegetables, and carbs were only complex carbs not simple ones like pasta, bread and the like.  I don't eat processed food and I've stopped having deli meats, bacon, sausage, etc. or (diet) soda.  I rarely drink, and when I do, it's usually wine that I've made myself from fruit that I grow.  "Slow food" or "Whole Food" has been the way I've always eaten for the most part.  Once in a great while, like maybe twice a year, I'd get a gallon of ice cream, but sugar has always made me feel terrible and I couldn't control it.  I was restrained if that ice cream lasted more that two days--not good.

What I hadn't known is that the idea that one should eat many small meals rather than one or two larger ones is horrendous for our bodies.  That was the last medical advice I'd been given around eating, but it turns out that that is horrible advice because your body releases insulin when you eat, and if it's never given a break, more and more will be released and hence, you become insulin resistant, and all of that food gets stored in fat cells or long term storage, making it impossible to lose weight.

After trying fasting, I quickly and pretty effortlessly lost 15 pounds--about five pounds a week. Thanksgiving has come and gone, which threw me off a bit, but I'm now back to it, starting again with 18:6 or 18 hours fasting and having a six hour eating window.  I've never liked eating first thing in the morning, so going without food until noon or one is not a hardship.  I do find it difficult to stop eating after dinner.  It is quite important to do so though, and especially in winter when it's dark.  It somehow effects out circadian rhythm.  Again, this was new information for me.  A sacrifice is to drink my coffee black.  I used to always drink it with real cream and it was so good, but it's a small thing and I'm adjusting. It would be silly to break the fast over that, and coffee has a much better medicinal effect without fat surrounding certain molecules.   As I'm writing this I'm drinking a cup of tea, also without cream--first time ever, and I'm realizing that I like it as well.  I cut open the tea bag and dumped it into a tea strainer to steep to avoid microplastics.  When did food become such a minefield?!

I'm still learning what works and what doesn't.  I'd been missing potatoes, so I got a bag to use in the annual turkey soup I make after Thanksgiving.  I've discovered that they must have too many carbs because in my eating window yesterday, I had some black bean soup that I'd thawed a few days ago along with a slice of sourdough bread and then for dinner, I had a bowl of hearty turkey soup: celery, onions, carrots, string beans and potatoes added. This certainly is not overeating, yet, when I climbed on the scale this am, I realized that I'd put on three pounds.  I'd heard that some simple carbs can be made into complex carbs by refrigerating overnight--This supposedly works with rice and a few other ingredients. (The loaf of sourdough has been in the freezer and has lasted much longer than I would have expected: bread=carbs=sugar=addiction.)

Maybe the weight gain was from the salt I added to the soup, but unlike every other time I've tried to lose weight, I wasn't discouraged to the point of  giving up, nor am I going to toss out the soup.  I will eat it and enjoy it, and then get back to low carb restricted eating because it works for me.  I had been able to fast for 24 and 48 hours and was trying to do a 72 hour fast, but didn't follow through on that one.  I will work up to that again, although I think it might be easier in the summer time.  Autophagy and mitochondrial health benefit abundantly so it will be worth it to try, but I'm not in a huge yank to get there.  The money I'm saving by skipping so many meals allows me to put that saved money toward better quality food like real ingredient, fermented sourdough or good seafood.  I am much more forgiving of myself with this way of eating, and for that I am grateful.

Barbara Simoes wrote: I'd heard that some simple carbs can be made into complex carbs by refrigerating overnight--This supposedly works with rice and a few other ingredients. (The loaf of sourdough has been in the freezer and has lasted much longer than I would have expected: bread=carbs=sugar=addiction.)

Maybe the weight gain was from the salt I added to the soup, but unlike every other time I've tried to lose weight, I wasn't discouraged to the point of  giving up, nor am I going to toss out the soup.  I will eat it and enjoy it, and then get back to low carb restricted eating because it works for me.  I had been able to fast for 24 and 48 hours and was trying to do a 72 hour fast, but didn't follow through on that one.  I will work up to that again, although I think it might be easier in the summer time.  Autophagy and mitochondrial health benefit abundantly so it will be worth it to try, but I'm not in a huge yank to get there.  The money I'm saving by skipping so many meals allows me to put that saved money toward better quality food like real ingredient, fermented sourdough or good seafood.  I am much more forgiving of myself with this way of eating, and for that I am grateful.

Yes, resistant starch is part of my strategy. You don't digest the carbs in your stomach. They give you medium chain triglycerides for more energy. I also try to throw some green leafies in there and some spices like hot sauce and even yogurt, to ease the glycemic spike.

John S
PDX OR

The morning OMAD produced the best results for me.  Caveats: No alcohol and only whole foods, which is a minefield because many whole foods have been compromised with varietals that spike your blood sugar.  I’m old enough to know how sweeter veggies are today.  Corn, apples, and now the carrots are getting sweet.  So growing/sourcing older varietals is important.  I don’t think beans have been ruined yet like the grains, but with grains you can try ancient varietals on the market like einkorn.

I did keto, blue-zone, carnivore, 6/18 and then OMAD.  From all this, my working hypothesis is that we evolved to have a slow release of carbohydrates in our gut, and when that runs out, we go into nutritional ketosis burning fats until the next bounty is found.