The Sad Legacy of Modern Ag

Such high wind soil erosion events occur 3-5 times every year here, mostly in winter, fall, and spring.

I know there are other folks out there in the world who think like me, but around here it is very lonely being completely encircled for mile after mile by ignorant people who just do not care a whit about how they are destroying the land and make absolutely zero effort at mitigation.

Topsoil depth of the cropland around here now around 6 inches, all rises and hillocks are already exposed subsoil clay.  The topsoil is burned out and can no longer produce acceptable yields without massive inputs of chem ferts.  Soil depth used to range up to 24 inches 130-150 years ago.  Do the math to desertification.

Used to make me angry, now I find it just sad and pathetic.  My grandfather, an early and true environmentalist, fought this unwise stewardship of the land back in the 1940s and 1950s, and he was ignored and ridiculed into silence.  Nothing has changed in 80 years.

Care for your soil, people, because without it you have nothing.

This is just to get folks to think.  I will not discuss the politics of it, and Permies.com rightly will not allow it anyway.

I feel your pain, we spoke to the owners of this house from the 50's the house had been bought by her parents in the 30's and they had started planting the windbreaks in this area, which made the entire area farmable, (entire villages have been lost to sand up here) it's still nicely protected by these mature windbreaks, but the farmers are ripping them out to get bigger machines onto the land. the wind hasn't stopped blowing and we get huge dust storms in late spring or winter if we get a dry one. One end of my field is 80-90% sand that it has captured from the surrounding land.

That stuff used to bother me tremendously.  Now, I do my best to ignore it.  I probably can't have much effect on what other people are doing, especially large farmers.  What I can do, is try very hard to make my piece of the world better, and at a bare minimum, just protect the parts I'm not actively using.  My thoughts are, I can be angry or sad or whatever at others, or I can find joy in the fact that I'm one person working to make my part better.  I have dozens of species of mammals living on my land, untold number of birds and bees and little creepers.  That makes me very happy.  Like Paul says about wasting time being angry at the bad guys...  You can only do what you can do.  Your mindset decides if you find joy in it, or are miserable.

If you can't do anything about this, don't destroy yourself with it.

If what the neighbors are doing is affecting you in a negative way that you can not mitigate, you should consider moving; if not, then you can, and I believe you should, do thing for yourself, to make things better.

If their toxic s*ù$ reach your place, maybe it's time to move. If however, you can plant windbreaks, start building soil again, at least on your piece of land, well maybe you should do that.

To be honest, posting about these things on permies is preaching to the choir in my opinion. I don't think a lot of people here will congratulate the neighbors about their bad practice. I'm just saying though. Sometimes it feels good to vent.

Mike Lafay wrote:If you can't do anything about this, don't destroy yourself with it.

If what the neighbors are doing is affecting you in a negative way that you can not mitigate, you should consider moving; if not, then you can, and I believe you should, do thing for yourself, to make things better.

If their toxic s*ù$ reach your place, maybe it's time to move. If however, you can plant windbreaks, start building soil again, at least on your piece of land, well maybe you should do that.

To be honest, posting about these things on permies is preaching to the choir in my opinion. I don't think a lot of people here will congratulate the neighbors about their bad practice. I'm just saying though. Sometimes it feels good to vent.

I am trying to educate people who might not be aware of the realities of modern agriculture, especially the younger generations who have much more at stake than folks like me.  This stuff will not affect me in what remains of my lifetime, but I still care about such things.  Everybody should.  To turn a blind eye just doesn't make sense to me.

Preaching to the choir, yeah I get that, and if people really do not like to see stuff like this here then I will happily delete and move on.  This is reality and believe me I know a lot of people just cannot deal with it.  But I wonder how many urban folks are really aware of what is happening out there so they can have their mega marts full of produce and meat, and their gas station pumps full of ethanol.  It cannot continue, it is unsustainable, all of us are living on borrowed time.  Fact.

As I stated in the original post, I am well over the anger issues.  I just think it is a sad and pathetic statement of the modern human condition.  I  live in my little eco-bubble that I have created for myself, like all permies, but it does not make reality go away.  It lies just beyond our property lines.

I will never throw in the towel and leave the land my family has owned since the 1880s.  Too many memories and too much history.

Tom Knippel wrote:
I am trying to educate people who might not be aware of the realities of modern agriculture, especially the younger generations who have much more at stake than folks like me.  This stuff will not affect me in what remains of my lifetime, but I still care about such things.  Everybody should.  To turn a blind eye just doesn't make sense to me.

Preaching to the choir, yeah I get that, and if people really do not like to see stuff like this here then I will happily delete and move on.  This is reality and believe me I know a lot of people just cannot deal with it.  But I wonder how many urban folks are really aware of what is happening out there so they can have their mega marts full of produce and meat, and their gas station pumps full of ethanol.  It cannot continue, it is unsustainable, all of us are living on borrowed time.  Fact.

As I stated in the original post, I am well over the anger issues.  I just think it is a sad and pathetic statement of the modern human condition.  I  live in my little eco-bubble that I have created for myself, like all permies, but it does not make reality go away.  It lies just beyond our property lines.

I will never throw in the towel and leave the land my family has owned since the 1880s.  Too many memories and too much history.

Some people are not reachable. Some people however, are more open. Some will gladly try without much incentive, others will need to see more success before trying. I personally don't plan on actively "converting" people, but I believe that if I end up making a lot of good stuff with my place, I will inspire others, and some will actively try to mimic and get into permaculture, forget about the toxic agriculture etc. It's not about turning a blind eye, it's about choosing your battle. I won't try to convince a proponent of toxic agriculture, because either that person won't try anything else, or can't. My time is much better spent talking with people much more open with the idea. I'm not sure if I'm clear with what I mean here.

What I think is nice with permies, is that it seems more focused on doing things instead of being angry at bad guys. Yes, a lot of s*%t happen just so we can all have SUVs, full wallmart and brand new phone every year, but personally, I prefer to focus on trying to depend less and less on that. Talk to people who are in the same mindset, and also try to talk about solutions to people who are open about trying new stuff.

In the end, I think it's essential to grow that eco-bubble. Show that it works. Help others who want to do something about it. Maybe find some other people who share your beliefs, and then start making a few, incremental, small changes. And then build on that, little by little. Maybe it can be teaching to younger generations. Maybe high-schoolers won't care, but as far as I know, kindergarten kids are much more open, and show them good agricultural practice, teaching them about ecosystem etc will plant a seed in a few of them. Then a few decades later, a few of thoses will become some kind of Sepp Holzer or Geoff Lawton or...

I was born with computers. Yet today I'm trying to understand soil more, and turn that thick, garden clay into rich humus, in which earthworms have no issue digging in.

Is there any way you could expand around your place, and gradually improve things ? Is there anything YOU can do to change this ? Some people just won't listen, so trying to help them change is not worth the effort.

Skandi Rogers wrote:I feel your pain, we spoke to the owners of this house from the 50's the house had been bought by her parents in the 30's and they had started planting the windbreaks in this area, which made the entire area farmable, (entire villages have been lost to sand up here) it's still nicely protected by these mature windbreaks, but the farmers are ripping them out to get bigger machines onto the land. the wind hasn't stopped blowing and we get huge dust storms in late spring or winter if we get a dry one. One end of my field is 80-90% sand that it has captured from the surrounding land.

I am sorry but this just sounds so sad to me.  I find it heartbreaking to hear that this is more of a common thing around the world than even I realized, and I consider myself an informed person.

I have been the subject of ridicule and scorn many times for bringing up this subject locally.  I am a pariah in my local community, and I wear this as a badge of honor.   I have experienced the same scorn that my grandfather faced so many decades ago by the grandfathers of the very same people who are farming around me today.  They are fools.  I take it as a badge of honor, with immense personal pride knowing I am living in the shadow of my grandfather, and for knowing without hesitation that I am right and they are wrong.  Doesn't change anything out in the real world, though.

Thank you for posting, it is imporant to me on a very personal level.

Another thing I'm thinking, it's that if all those that lives around you won't change by a iota (which seem to be the case as even their own grandparents didn't care), you could still use the internet to share successes, failures and the lessons that come with them, or even some history about the place...

I watch videos, read blogs entry from people whom I have no idea if they are surrounded by assholes, open-minded people, or permaculturists. What is happening none the less is that I, who live miles and miles away from them, can try things, get inspired, and so do a lot of other people.

Mike Lafay wrote:

Tom Knippel wrote:
I am trying to educate people who might not be aware of the realities of modern agriculture, especially the younger generations who have much more at stake than folks like me.  This stuff will not affect me in what remains of my lifetime, but I still care about such things.  Everybody should.  To turn a blind eye just doesn't make sense to me.

Preaching to the choir, yeah I get that, and if people really do not like to see stuff like this here then I will happily delete and move on.  This is reality and believe me I know a lot of people just cannot deal with it.  But I wonder how many urban folks are really aware of what is happening out there so they can have their mega marts full of produce and meat, and their gas station pumps full of ethanol.  It cannot continue, it is unsustainable, all of us are living on borrowed time.  Fact.

As I stated in the original post, I am well over the anger issues.  I just think it is a sad and pathetic statement of the modern human condition.  I  live in my little eco-bubble that I have created for myself, like all permies, but it does not make reality go away.  It lies just beyond our property lines.

I will never throw in the towel and leave the land my family has owned since the 1880s.  Too many memories and too much history.

Some people are not reachable. Some people however, are more open. Some will gladly try without much incentive, others will need to see more success before trying. I personally don't plan on actively "converting" people, but I believe that if I end up making a lot of good stuff with my place, I will inspire others, and some will actively try to mimic and get into permaculture, forget about the toxic agriculture etc. It's not about turning a blind eye, it's about choosing your battle. I won't try to convince a proponent of toxic agriculture, because either that person won't try anything else, or can't. My time is much better spent talking with people much more open with the idea. I'm not sure if I'm clear with what I mean here.

What I think is nice with permies, is that it seems more focused on doing things instead of being angry at bad guys. Yes, a lot of s*%t happen just so we can all have SUVs, full wallmart and brand new phone every year, but personally, I prefer to focus on trying to depend less and less on that. Talk to people who are in the same mindset, and also try to talk about solutions to people who are open about trying new stuff.

In the end, I think it's essential to grow that eco-bubble. Show that it works. Help others who want to do something about it. Maybe find some other people who share your beliefs, and then start making a few, incremental, small changes. And then build on that, little by little. Maybe it can be teaching to younger generations. Maybe high-schoolers won't care, but as far as I know, kindergarten kids are much more open, and show them good agricultural practice, teaching them about ecosystem etc will plant a seed in a few of them. Then a few decades later, a few of thoses will become some kind of Sepp Holzer or Geoff Lawton or...

I was born with computers. Yet today I'm trying to understand soil more, and turn that thick, garden clay into rich humus, in which earthworms have no issue digging in.

Is there any way you could expand around your place, and gradually improve things ? Is there anything YOU can do to change this ? Some people just won't listen, so trying to help them change is not worth the effort.

You know, without knowing you I feel I do know you on a personal level.  You are intense in your beliefs and opinions, which are really not that much different from mine.  I wish you were the neighbor down the highway from me.  Unfortunately there is nobody down the highway from me who thinks like you and I do.  I would find it fulfilling to have a personal, face-to-face conversation with you or folks like you, without it devolving into politics, and that usually becomes the problem.  I think we are more alike than you or I might think.  The problem is there are not enough of folks like us to network locally, yet.

I am working on it.  I started a seed library at the local town library, and committed seeds, time, garden tours, etc.  It was an abject failure because nobody cared.  I switched to mentoring young adults with young children, with some success.  The children are incredible, being little sponges craving knowledge and the opportunity to learn.  I think I have had an effect, but I think I need to move on to the school systems because I think I can reach more children that way.  I love helping adults learn to garden and provide healthy food for their young families, but I am absolutely convinced that giving the children the opportunies they need is 100% the way to go.  The children still have the wonder that is needed to try new things.  A child seeing a seed sprout into a plant is a wonderful, magical thing, and that is how we get people to our side.

Seeing the awe in children's eyes as when they harvest their own beans or tomatoes or pumkins or popcorn, or when they dig carrots or potatoes, well I tell you I cannot even describe the personal satisfaction I achieve from such simple things.  Pure magic.  This is how I find joy in my life.

Thank you for posting, it matters to me...

Sometimes the sky is brown with the dirt blowing away. It makes me sad too. I trap some of it on my own property but most of it is lost. Sad.

My area was the same way for most of the last century.
The last 15-20 years has seen a lot of improvement though. Mostly with cover crops planted after harvests and tons of gin trash compost being spread on fields.
I believe the farmers are making these changes to save money on fertilizers, pesticides and herbicides. Using legumes for the nitrogen fixing, reducing weed seed banks with hairy vetch and clovers, using mustard's to kill off nematodes etc...
I have even been seeing turnips and clovers planted in-row under grapevines rather than herbicides and bare earth.
 Perhaps the savings in costs will be the way forward with big-ag.  Money is what they are after and many good soil practices save money...(and the farmland).

Greg Judy mentions in one of his books that the best way to get through to people like that is by example. In a rural community, you can bet your life that folks will notice changes in your property, and when those changes become blaringly obvious and a vast improvement compared to surrounding properties, they will come to you with 1000 questions.

Just focus on what you can change.

Some people are not reachable. Some people however, are more open. Some will gladly try without much incentive, others will need to see more success before trying. I personally don't plan on actively "converting" people, but I believe that if I end up making a lot of good stuff with my place, I will inspire others, and some will actively try to mimic and get into permaculture, forget about the toxic agriculture etc. It's not about turning a blind eye, it's about choosing your battle. I won't try to convince a proponent of toxic agriculture, because either that person won't try anything else, or can't. My time is much better spent talking with people much more open with the idea. I'm not sure if I'm clear with what I mean here.

What I think is nice with permies, is that it seems more focused on doing things instead of being angry at bad guys. Yes, a lot of s*%t happen just so we can all have SUVs, full wallmart and brand new phone every year, but personally, I prefer to focus on trying to depend less and less on that. Talk to people who are in the same mindset, and also try to talk about solutions to people who are open about trying new stuff.

In the end, I think it's essential to grow that eco-bubble. Show that it works. Help others who want to do something about it. Maybe find some other people who share your beliefs, and then start making a few, incremental, small changes. And then build on that, little by little. Maybe it can be teaching to younger generations. Maybe high-schoolers won't care, but as far as I know, kindergarten kids are much more open, and show them good agricultural practice, teaching them about ecosystem etc will plant a seed in a few of them. Then a few decades later, a few of thoses will become some kind of Sepp Holzer or Geoff Lawton or...

Some are set in their ways, most are apathetic, and some may be receptive.  Doing what you believe in and showing others a different way might grab the few who might be receptive or lead to like minded people.  I see people people a few years younger who are now buying land and seem receptive to more natural and less destructive ways so I think there is still hope.  I'm late to this game but I came here because I am inspired by the people here and not necessarily by anger.

Skandi Rogers wrote:I feel your pain, we spoke to the owners of this house from the 50's the house had been bought by her parents in the 30's and they had started planting the windbreaks in this area, which made the entire area farmable, (entire villages have been lost to sand up here) it's still nicely protected by these mature windbreaks, but the farmers are ripping them out to get bigger machines onto the land. the wind hasn't stopped blowing and we get huge dust storms in late spring or winter if we get a dry one. One end of my field is 80-90% sand that it has captured from the surrounding land.

😓 so sad! Haven't we learned from the U.S. "dustbowl," the desertification that killed Lake Chad?

Nick Kitchener wrote:Greg Judy mentions in one of his books that the best way to get through to people like that is by example. In a rural community, you can bet your life that folks will notice changes in your property, and when those changes become blaringly obvious and a vast improvement compared to surrounding properties, they will come to you with 1000 questions.

Glad to see this name mentioned. There are videos on the web of Greg Judy presenting to ranchers and he has charts and data that demonstrate that the farmer will save money by following the principles he teaches.

Tom Knippel wrote:

I am working on it.  I started a seed library at the local town library, and committed seeds, time, garden tours, etc.  

Would the library order copies of Greg Judy's books?

Years ago now, I managed to convince my Library Administer to buy Shepherd's Restoration Agriculture. Later when I wanted to re-read a section, there was a 9 mnth wait list on it!  I managed to convince them to buy another copy! I just checked - they're down to a single copy again, but there are 3 reserves in line for it. That represents a likely 3 month wait. We have a "regional" library system, so the books can travel a long way to get to a reader. However, that tells me that at least some farmers are starting to think we need new management practices. It may not have reached your neighborhood yet, but if you're starting with children and maybe young teens, I think there's a chance. The weather's been soooo... weird here in British Columbia this year, people are starting to realize that the problem *is* in their back yard!