Advice for starting a food forest/permaculture from scratch

Hi Everyone,

We are new to the idea of permaculture and would like to turn our 8 acre property in the South Carolina Midlands (Aiken County) into a healthy, food-producing acreage.  Right now, about 2 of the 8 acres acres are cleared, but the rest is new growth mix of pines and oaks.  It is on a downward incline with fairly sandy soil.  

We are so new to this that we really don't have a good idea where to start.  I've tried reaching out to the local universities and gardeners without any luck.  

Any advice on this would be greatly appreciated,

Maureen

Welcome to Permies from another South Carolinian!
While I've been aware of permaculture for awhile, I've been very slow to learn and apply it, so I'm probably not the best one to give advice. However, it would help to know your short and long term goals with the land.

The first step is usually to simply observe. I'm not asking for answers to these, but they're questions to help with your observations. What path does rain water run? Where are the dry areas and flood zones? What plants thrive where? Where are the frost pockets and microclimates? Is there a path that deer tend to take? Other animals to contend with? What resources do you have with the land for mulch, chop and drop, edible weeds, etc?

Many people say the next step is to get trees started, just because they take so long to produce. If your soil is poor, working on that is a great next step, too. There's an awesome soil series on this site by Bryant RedHawk - https://permies.com/wiki/redhawk-soil

hi Nikki,

Thank you for the warm welcome and helpful link.  

So far our biggest decision is fence the place off and plant deer resistant/sound absorbing trees and hedging.  I hate to send the deer packing but I'm not sure there is a way around that.  When we bought the place, it was a quiet, peaceful haven where it was wonderful to leave apples for the deer and always a thrill to watch them.  I didn't even mind the snakes.  However, civilization is encroaching in ways we would rather avoid.

We are in the process of trying to figure out the things you've mentioned.  It would be so helpful to find someone who could come look at the place.  If there is someone in our area who is actually into permaculture, I have yet to find them.  

Thank you again for a place to  trying to figure all of this out!

Maureen

This isn't too far away from you...

https://www.motherearthnewsfair.com/spring-conference/

This opportunity already happened for the year but if you look at their schedule of speakers and classes, you'll see they had a lot about permaculture. When we lived in North Carolina about 8 years ago, we went to the Mother Earth News fair and we learned a lot of things that helped us as we first started learning about permaculture.

Edited to add: I shared this to show that there are people and learning opportunities in the region even if the local universities aren't helpful.

Probably very first steps, along with observation as mentioned above, is to write out your goals. Get as specific and broad as you can. Just saying you want to do permaculture on your land is like saying you want to become an educated person- there are so many ways to go about it.

Then draw a site map. You can go on Google Earth and print out pages of a view of your land and start drawing what's there. Then make a copy and start drawing out what you want to have and where. It's easier to make changes on paper than on the land itself. I like drawing stuff out on the computer because I can zoom in and out to see the small details and the big picture. Then I just save a copy each spring and make updates so I can look at my old plans and compare to my new plans.

White you are planning out the big stuff, start practicing with a small garden near your house. Maybe make a mini hugelkultur bed or a mini food forest guild. As you learn what works on a small scale, you can apply it to the larger land.

https://permies.com/t/174517/garden-plan-Garden-Master

You can look at my post here to see some of the ways I make my plans, along with some nifty things I've recently learned.

Hi there!

Fellow newbie here, we've just moved to the south western area of Virginia and are attempting to do something similar to you!

I don't have a lot of advice but I thought maybe you'd like to know you're not the only one in the newbie boat.

We've just been observing and learning what we have around us for the last six months so far, and I've started a small hugelkulture herb spiral, as well as a small no till/no dig kitchen garden (I've yet to plant anything in it yet because I'm scared that there will still be another frost here soon). We've planted a few fruit trees to start my tree guilds and are slowly but surely planning out exactly where we want to build our various farm structures and what not.

I wish you the best of luck in your endeavors! Maybe we'll be able to learn from each other along the way, too!

Thank you for the link and info, Jenny.  

My guess is that most of the people around here tend to go with more traditional farming and aren't ready to try this new-fangled stuff.  More people are at least starting to go with the organic foods or growing foods organically, I just haven't been able to connect with anyone who goes the permaculture route--yet!  

Thank you again!

Elizabeth Stan wrote:Hi there!

Fellow newbie here, we've just moved to the south western area of Virginia and are attempting to do something similar to you!

I don't have a lot of advice but I thought maybe you'd like to know you're not the only one in the newbie boat.

We've just been observing and learning what we have around us for the last six months so far, and I've started a small hugelkulture herb spiral, as well as a small no till/no dig kitchen garden (I've yet to plant anything in it yet because I'm scared that there will still be another frost here soon). We've planted a few fruit trees to start my tree guilds and are slowly but surely planning out exactly where we want to build our various farm structures and what not.

I wish you the best of luck in your endeavors! Maybe we'll be able to learn from each other along the way, too!

Hi Elizabeth,

I will be sure to keep you in mind as we move forward with our projects.  So far, I only have a small flower garden for the bees and butterflies that is holding its own.  It gets the late morning and afternoon sun.  I also have another small garden near it mixed with food and flowers.  We got a handful of cherry tomatoes last year, the rabbits got most of my kale and spinach this year, but the irises are doing great.  I'm glad we're dependent on my farming skills for food!

Maureen

Jenny Wright wrote:https://permies.com/t/174517/garden-plan-Garden-Master

You can look at my post here to see some of the ways I make my plans, along with some nifty things I've recently learned.

Thank you, Jenny.  Our county website allows us to get different kinds of maps of our property that have been helpful with broad overviews of elevations and so on.  I definitely understand your ideas there and see where i can take them to different levels.  

Thank you for the tips!

I suggest you go up to the search box at the top of this page and type in the words....."food forest". It currently shows 195 threads on the subject. It can give you lots of interesting ideas that you haven't thought of. Happy gardening.

Thank you, Debbie Ann!  I'm still learning my way around the site and appreciate your answer!

In addition to the above, I'd encourage anyone with an acre or more to build one or more nursery beds for perennials. This allows you to let inexpensive or free small plants, seedlings and cuttings grow while you observe and do your earthworks. I built both an air-pruned (off the ground) bed for tap-rooted plants like nut trees, and in-ground beds. The latter I put on a north facing slope to delay plants' breaking dormancy, and on shallow soil just above bedrock to make it easier to remove their entire root system intact for planting.

Thank you, Ben, for your advice.

We plan on replacing the woods we have with privacy/sound absorbing trees on the perimeter with fruit and nut trees along the inside.  I hate to lose the woods, but neighbors are cutting down their woods leaving us with little choice but to become more proactive in addressing the serenity of our property.

We were looking at transplanter containers for the trees until they were ready to plant.  We don't have bedrock to do it your way, but the tip on facing them to the north until it is time to plant is tremendous help.  

Thank you again,

Maureen

Hi Maureen, I started my food forest 3 years ago by planting some pecan and apple trees, and since then I have been adding as much diversity around the initial plantings as money and time will allow.  I have also been guilty of paralysis by analysis more than a handful of times while trying to figure all of this out.  Yes, observation of your land is crucial as well as learning from your mistakes.  I found the book Gaia's Garden: A Guide to Home-scale Permaculture by Toby Hemingway a great resource for creating a food forest on the homesteading level.  Good luck!

I would try to leave some larger canopy trees if I could to hold soil, reduce wind, and provide dappled shade for establishing your young trees. Especially in hot climates, most young trees are evolved to do best in dappled shade, as most tree seeds fall in forests. The trick is then felling them without harming the young trees, but I bet you could find benefit from leaving some oaks on the north side of the property.

Are you on FB by chance?   There is a "South Carolina Permaculture" group on FB if you search for it.    Not a big group, about 150 members.   But it might lead to some in person help or local resources for you!   Good luck.  

I’d also leave trees providing shade to the west side of a structure/house, nursery or garden.

Ben Zumeta wrote:I would try to leave some larger canopy trees if I could to hold soil, reduce wind, and provide dappled shade for establishing your young trees. Especially in hot climates, most young trees are evolved to do best in dappled shade, as most tree seeds fall in forests. The trick is then felling them without harming the young trees, but I bet you could find benefit from leaving some oaks on the north side of the property.

Pawpaws are one of those trees that do best in the canopy as young trees.

I'd go about removing and replacing trees very slowly, especially in South Carolina. If you try to remove a bunch of trees at once, the first good thunderstorm that comes along afterwards wIll wash away all your topsoil and then the sun will bake what's left into a hard shell.

Instead of getting rid of your pines and oaks, you could start growing a understory hedge of food-producing vines and bushes that would also provide privacy and a barrier from your neighbors. For example muscadine grapes can provide a very thick screen and so many grapes that you'll be giving away shopping bags full. They can grow all over your existing trees.

If you do go ahead with removing the oaks and pines, depending on the size and shape of the tree, you can get some money for the oaks- I would look into that before using them in a hugelkultur mound for example. The pines are worth a little less- when we had some pines removed, the price of removal was a little less because the company got some money for the wood but not a ton.

Pines can be extremely useful for pine straw for mulching the garden. You can even sell bundles of it- there is a market for it for crafts as well as mulch. The oak leaves provide awesome mulch and compost too. And there are some threads on here about harvesting and baking with the acorns that you might want to look at.

Joshua LeDuc wrote:Hi Maureen, I started my food forest 3 years ago by planting some pecan and apple trees, and since then I have been adding as much diversity around the initial plantings as money and time will allow.  I have also been guilty of paralysis by analysis more than a handful of times while trying to figure all of this out.  Yes, observation of your land is crucial as well as learning from your mistakes.  I found the book Gaia's Garden: A Guide to Home-scale Permaculture by Toby Hemingway a great resource for creating a food forest on the homesteading level.  Good luck!

Thank you for the references, Joshua.  Among the first food trees we're looking at are pecans, apples, and peaches.  It's good to hear someone else started out with the same plans!

Heather Staas wrote:Are you on FB by chance?   There is a "South Carolina Permaculture" group on FB if you search for it.    Not a big group, about 150 members.   But it might lead to some in person help or local resources for you!   Good luck.  

Thank you, Heather!  I just joined!

Ben Zumeta wrote:I’d also leave trees providing shade to the west side of a structure/house, nursery or garden.

We had planned on leaving 2 of the big oaks on the west side, but are going to have to remove some of the treeson the east side because erosion problems are so bad we are going to have to put up retaining walls trying to put in swales.  I wish we could find another way around it but have not come up with another solution.

Jenny Wright wrote:If you do go ahead with removing the oaks and pines, depending on the size and shape of the tree, you can get some money for the oaks- I would look into that before using them in a hugelkultur mound for example. The pines are worth a little less- when we had some pines removed, the price of removal was a little less because the company got some money for the wood but not a ton.

Pines can be extremely useful for pine straw for mulching the garden. You can even sell bundles of it- there is a market for it for crafts as well as mulch. The oak leaves provide awesome mulch and compost too. And there are some threads on here about harvesting and baking with the acorns that you might want to look at.

We do have a lot of muscadine but it doesn't block out the neighbors or sound in the winter.  

Our plan was to use the pines as posts for wire fencing around the perimeter and use the oak for firewood as we heat our place with a wood burning stove.   And a mulcher is on the shopping list.

Thanks for the tip about the acorns!  

Ben Zumeta wrote:I would try to leave some larger canopy trees if I could to hold soil, reduce wind, and provide dappled shade for establishing your young trees. Especially in hot climates, most young trees are evolved to do best in dappled shade, as most tree seeds fall in forests. The trick is then felling them without harming the young trees, but I bet you could find benefit from leaving some oaks on the north side of the property.

I hate losing any of the forest we have.  Thanks for the tip about the north side.  We do need wind protection

Jenny Wright wrote:

Ben Zumeta wrote:I would try to leave some larger canopy trees if I could to hold soil, reduce wind, and provide dappled shade for establishing your young trees. Especially in hot climates, most young trees are evolved to do best in dappled shade, as most tree seeds fall in forests. The trick is then felling them without harming the young trees, but I bet you could find benefit from leaving some oaks on the north side of the property.

Pawpaws are one of those trees that do best in the canopy as young trees.

I'd go about removing and replacing trees very slowly, especially in South Carolina. If you try to remove a bunch of trees at once, the first good thunderstorm that comes along afterwards wIll wash away all your topsoil and then the sun will bake what's left into a hard shell.

The game is to do it in sections as erosion is a big problem for us.  There's no question that some trees will have to go and retaining walls put in.  We just had a bad thunderstorm that actually helped with giving us ideas on where we can put in swales to help water the plants.