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permanent really?  RSS feed

 
Russ White
Posts: 35
Location: north eastern us
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Lots of recent post about deer eating plants from our gardens. I recently started bow hunting. While out in the woods, state land. I have come across old orchards that have been choked out by vines and trees growing around them. I found old blueberry patches that do not produce any berries due to same type of over growth. Where there was once well maintained gardens and fields there is just the forest trying to take over with small trees and vines. Seems our ancestors who were growing all there own food on these lands thought that there hard work would live on. It did but only for a short time. The state has a hands off policy when it comes to maintaining the land these days. Seems the work we are doing may some day also be for naught if we are unable to convince others to maintain what we are planting. Sad for us, but the deer that also enjoyed that fruit now are coming into our yards because they need to eat. While out on these state lands i often think what a waste it is that this land could be producing so much food with out removing all the trees. Instead of acres of pines we could plant more hardwoods, nut trees, fruit trees. Add some random clearings to create edges and plant the berries. Maybe even add some herbs and flowers in these clearings. The deer would have no reason to come to us for food and if we planned it wisely they would have some left to share with us.
 
Xisca Nicolas
pollinator
Posts: 1300
Location: La Palma (Canary island) Zone 11
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I really like what you point out!
I wrote something a little similar, talking also that I like the book "tending the wild".
What men thought to be wilderness was a tended garden.
Even anthropologists did not see it at once...

so, this led to the belief of nature that should be left alone, and on the other side, there is agriculture...
We destroy, so we think we are bad for nature, though we have to cultivate and breed for eating!

I proposed in a post, maybe the one about indigenous permaculture, and I wrote in big letters, that it would be a great challenge for permaculture, to propose to tend a wild place in a permy way! And also, this message that man can be good to nature has to be spread. I believe it can be done through the example of California. Read tending the wild if you have not read it yet!

Thanks to the theme of Looby's book, we've got the big part to deal with... how can some people get to work WITH "the state"?
They just do not know what good man can do in a wild garden of Eden...
And this would profit to animals, and protects cultivated gardens, you are right I think. California Indians were doing this for animals as well, long time ago, not so long ago...
 
Tyler Ludens
pollinator
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Location: Central Texas USA Latitude 30 Zone 8
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My main focus these days on the land I'm tending (I hesitate to call it "my land") is to plant things for the people who may come after me. I'm planting both domestic and wild plants. Likely the wild plants, being better adapted to the locale, may do better over time, but there are some ancient fruit trees about 20 miles from here, that must be many decades old, still fruiting heavily even in drought. So I have hope.

 
Judith Browning
Posts: 5723
Location: Arkansas Ozarks zone 7 alluvial,black,deep loam/clay with few rocks, wonderful creek bottom!
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I like how you are looking at this...but I've always understood that with more food there would be more deer and I think they would still eat my sweet potato vines. Some of what humans grow in their gardens is just tastier than available browse. I think the deer population in our area is well controled by availability of food, hunters, disease and death by vehicles so I'm just not sure what more food would do to the balance.
 
Tyler Ludens
pollinator
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More food might make more deer which would require more hunters or allowing deer predators (cougar are the main predators of deer - folks get nervous about having cougars around......) to keep the balance.
 
Brenda Groth
pollinator
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Location: North Central Michigan
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doing that here as much as I can. I have a wooded area and I have been putting things in there for the wildlife..

I have a couple apple trees that are producing, some berries and am putting in acorns for future oak trees (there are a few baby oaks already growing)..The oak I took the acorns from has some super large acorns that it produces, I got them from my sister's house and grew it from an acorn and this was its first year for a large acorn crop, and the acorns were gigantic from it.

I am planting all of them around our property this year.

we also have taken an old abandoned field we own and have been reforesting it..right now it is mostly evergreens and nitrogen fixers, but we are putting in fruit and nut and berry trees and bushes.
 
Russ White
Posts: 35
Location: north eastern us
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I think the state has a responsibility to better manage the lands it acquired. There was food there. Plus there were great numbers of chestnut trees. The chestnuts were all killed off by a blight. Many large hardwoods were forested. Our state chose to plant vast acres of pines to fill the void. With less food in the forest there were large die offs of game. The game moved to our yards because of lack of food. The mono cultures of pines are barren. Sure it sounds romantic that we should plant for the animals, but it might be there end if we do not. Was reading a recent survey put out by state were they are tracking for location and mortality rate. The state said in there survey that there is about a 50% mortality rate of fawns, it went on to say that does have young an average of 113 yards from a road and an average of 124 yards from a home. then there is the fear that the deer will get chronic wasting disease. It does not matter how many deer they say we can kill on state property the deer are not there in large numbers, they are close to our homes.
 
Judith Browning
Posts: 5723
Location: Arkansas Ozarks zone 7 alluvial,black,deep loam/clay with few rocks, wonderful creek bottom!
323
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As far as I am aware, in Arkansas, the state park land and National Forest lands are managed in a way that encourages wildlife..including burns and selective thinning. I don't agree with all of their practices...sometimes chemicals are used. Here the unfortunate mono crop is pine for pulp. Companies bought up cheap land here, logged it, poisoned any other growth and planted pine and apparently it's still a profitable business. This state relies on tourism so maybe that is the force determining how state land is maintained.
 
Russ White
Posts: 35
Location: north eastern us
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Judith
I thought the same. Permaculture has changed the way I look at ever thing. If I was to take a walk in the woods before, I would not have been looking to see what was growing. People who watch birds look for birds. I find my self counting how many. Are there squirrels and how many. I some times stop to look to see how different plants are grouped and where they are growing. Heck I even look at the dirt. My initial thought of the loss of things that were growing some time ago seems to have been missed. There was this one old farm that I came upon with the choked out orchard, that hit me pretty hard. It most have been quite beautiful in its day. It was set slightly higher than it surroundings with steps leading up to it. Surely it was someones pride and joy. When I am gone the next person to take over this property may not care that it took me years to assemble the plants I have. Who knows that person may remove them all for lawn.
 
Tyler Ludens
pollinator
Posts: 9695
Location: Central Texas USA Latitude 30 Zone 8
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If those orchard trees were still alive, a little care might bring them back into productivity. That's one of the lessons of the food forest, that it is durable and can be neglected for at least a decade and then brought back into productivity. In "Establishing a Food Forest" geoff lawton returns to a food forest he planted ten years previously at Tagari Farm. The fruit trees are still there doing fine and bearing fruit, completely abandoned and overgrown.



 
Martin Pelletier
Posts: 12
Location: Montcerf-Lytton, Qu├ębec, Canada
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Xisca Nicolas wrote:I really like what you point out!
I wrote something a little similar, talking also that I like the book "tending the wild".
What men thought to be wilderness was a tended garden.
Even anthropologists did not see it at once...

so, this led to the belief of nature that should be left alone, and on the other side, there is agriculture...
We destroy, so we think we are bad for nature, though we have to cultivate and breed for eating!

I proposed in a post, maybe the one about indigenous permaculture, and I wrote in big letters, that it would be a great challenge for permaculture, to propose to tend a wild place in a permy way! And also, this message that man can be good to nature has to be spread. I believe it can be done through the example of California. Read tending the wild if you have not read it yet!

Thanks to the theme of Looby's book, we've got the big part to deal with... how can some people get to work WITH "the state"?
They just do not know what good man can do in a wild garden of Eden...
And this would profit to animals, and protects cultivated gardens, you are right I think. California Indians were doing this for animals as well, long time ago, not so long ago...

It is funny you suggest to manage the forest because I wanted to do that about 9 years ago. In fact where I live, their is a course at public school I had where we learn to do that. As an example how to provide natural shelter for rabbits to help them to have more babies. It always begin with how to manage the forest to help them provide food, nesting, shelter etc. I did that kind of things before and the customers was always satisfied. Some of them even claim results as fast as year after but usualy it takes between 3 to 5 years. Maybe we should had a new topic for that but in wich category?
 
Judith Browning
Posts: 5723
Location: Arkansas Ozarks zone 7 alluvial,black,deep loam/clay with few rocks, wonderful creek bottom!
323
bike chicken fungi trees urban woodworking
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I do think I understand your point. I don't hunt but hike on both state and national park land. There are few but some old homesteads that are sad to see neglected...but most are so old that fruit trees that grow well here, like peaches and plums, would be long gone unless replanted. I have understood that you shouldn't try to revive an old apple orchard without checking for arsenic first. In the mountains here though, you are likely to find beautiful bearing pear trees in the middle of nowhere, likely all that was left of an old home site. Our forests have abundant oaks, hickory, some chestnut, wild plum, persimmon, pawpaw, muscadine, mulberry, blackberries, raspberries etc Other than the sadness of seeing someone's long labor disrespected in that way I don't see where domestic crops would be better for wildlife than native or at least what we think of as native.
I do notice that iris and jonquils and spireas and some roses are the last plants remaining at some abandoned homes. An old house site on our land has all of those and a peony that I cherish.
I am trying to understand...maybe my own experience in this state is getting in the way.
 
Russ White
Posts: 35
Location: north eastern us
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Let me say it just a little differently. Many years ago when I was just a kid people here in CT. still had full use of the state forest. Now most of the roads are blocked off. We would go blueberry picking and see our neighbors out there doing the same. If you had a problem with your well pump you could go and get water from one of the many natural springs. Fishing and hunting were the norm. Now if you want to go fishing you better be prepared for a hike. Parking is often poor with barely enough room to pull off the main road. When once we knew the names of the wardens who would stop by to chat with you, now if you see one they are ready to fine you for something. What once was a productive active plus is now getting run down with the excuse that this is more natural with native plants. If you still have it better where you are be prepared to fight for it or you to will see what I mean. Not all of our forest are this way they maintain some areas, where they charge for camping. Funny thing is these are also the same areas where they're head quarters are. Of course the economy probably has something to do with it. We are blessed to have public areas. If I could convince enough people how permaculture could work on these public lands it will change for the better. But my personal experience is most people are just too busy or think I am just weird to even care.








 
Tyler Ludens
pollinator
Posts: 9695
Location: Central Texas USA Latitude 30 Zone 8
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There's very little public land in my state, you are certainly blessed to have the public land, even if it isn't as nice as it was. I agree permaculture principles would help a lot.

 
Russ White
Posts: 35
Location: north eastern us
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Tyler
Thanks for following along. Hope my story has shed some light on where I live. I have read many of your post. They have surely shed light on what you have to deal with.
 
Burra Maluca
Mother Tree
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Location: Portugal Zone 9 Mediterranean Climate
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Martin Pelletier wrote:
It is funny you suggest to manage the forest because I wanted to do that about 9 years ago. In fact where I live, their is a course at public school I had where we learn to do that. As an example how to provide natural shelter for rabbits to help them to have more babies. It always begin with how to manage the forest to help them provide food, nesting, shelter etc. I did that kind of things before and the customers was always satisfied. Some of them even claim results as fast as year after but usualy it takes between 3 to 5 years. Maybe we should had a new topic for that but in wich category?


How about in the woodland forum?

 
Tyler Ludens
pollinator
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Location: Central Texas USA Latitude 30 Zone 8
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I would definitely like to see that thread!

 
Burra Maluca
Mother Tree
Posts: 9489
Location: Portugal Zone 9 Mediterranean Climate
785
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Martin has started a thread on wildlife management in the woodland forum. Here's a link - http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/list/18239#155724

Thankyou Martin!
 
You can thank my dental hygienist for my untimely aliveness. So tiny:
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https://permies.com/t/65247/permaculture-design/permaculture-design-alternative-technology-live
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