decreasing our dependence on . . . ELECTRICITY!

Seeking like minded visionaries . . .  

I believe that before or along with wanting to reduce our dependence on fossil fuels, we should be making a push to decrease our dependence on electricity.

I believe we need to invest in researching direct uses of solar, wind, & water that do not require electricity (cut out the middle man). Similar to how wind and water used to power various mills, but now with applying advanced technology, and using in many diverse applications.  

I believe that if we invested in research (time, $$$, and effort) for solar heat (space, water, cooking, cooling, etc.) even a tiny fraction of what we have and continue to invest in solar and wind electric, the return in investment would be far far greater. Solar heat is very efficient, very low cost, and requires very little tech., however it has been all but ignored except among DIY and tiny start-ups . . . even though heating (space, water, cooking) uses a large majority of the energy consumed in every home in the US.

If you would like to join me in making a push for a number of different ways we can reduce our dependence on electricity and fossil fuels, let's start this conversation.  I have a number of ideas of my own, and certainly welcome others.

I believe that there are enough people that feel the same way, and that together we can change the world, much quicker than we ever would on our own.

Look at this US Energy Information Administration page that shows household energy use stats:  https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/use-of-energy/homes.php#:~:text=Electricity%20is%20used%20in%20almost,use%20energy%20consumption%20in%202021.
It mentions that over half is used for (space) heating and cooling, but when you look at the graph you see that space and water heating uses even more, and adding cooling and cooking combines to 75% or more of household energy consumption!

If we used less electricity, we would need much smaller PV(or wind) systems, less battery storage, etc.

Thoughts?

Thanks!

All humor aside.. I agree. We need to use less electricity, and everything else that separates us from the natural world. The majority of human existence was free from electricity.

It's definitely insane that we are not building passive solar buildings on mass. We already know everything we need to know to eliminate the need for air conditioning and heat in homes--in the majority of climates where most of the population lives.
We also know what we need to know to eliminate the need to artificially light interiors during the day.

I would love to have some way to directly power my washing machine. It's one of my biggest uses of electricity and I already only line dry the clothes so I wash when it's sunny. I hadn't thought about using some kind of mill! that would make sense as rotation is exactly what the washer needs. My Monday-Friday house likely doesn't have enough space as it's an urban row house type of place but I would love to see plans to run a clothes washer--even an old fashioned-y one, with a windmill or water wheel.

There are certainly ways (with a little ingenuity) that a vertical axis windmill could be used to power not only a washing machine, but provide the rotating portion of a dryer, while a solar heat collector provided the hot air.

Is your discussion ONLY in terms of US energy usage for our homes? IF so, it may be better to encourage OTHERS to do so as that would have a far greater impact. The USA makes up only 5% of the global population. IF EVERY US home went to 100% solar and wind, the global impacts would be near zero.



But by far the greatest usage of electricity in the USA is in the manufacturing/business sector so if you wish for a difference, that too is were efforts should be put to better use.

I fully support and personally strive for reduced dependence on the electrical grid but only for a monetary sake.  

I've seen this kind of stuff in Low-Tech Magazine and No-Tech Magazine.

https://www.lowtechmagazine.com/site-map.html

https://www.notechmagazine.com/

I'm in the process of setting up an off-grid home now, and it's made me very conscious of all the excess electricity I use, often without even thinking about it.  Most of the devices in our house use electricity even when they are "turned off".  Even the water filter has a little disposable electric gadget on it to tell us when to change the filter!  It's got an LED in it, and batteries, and maybe even some kind of tilt sensor?

Anyway, I'm looking at things like making a passive solar sand battery to store heat and then when I need electricity I can use the "strange engine"  which is unbelievably simple, to convert the heat gradient to electricity.

If I need more energy than that more some reason (earth moving maybe?  whatever) then I'm looking at alcohol fuel.  Making alcohol fuel actually improves the food quality of the inputs (yeast are protein) and the byproducts can be feed to livestock, the alcohol is made from water and air and sunlight, it's liquid sunshine.  It burns clean, etc.  Small-scale integrated alcohol fuel production is a no-brainer.

I want to avoid solar panels and chemical batteries (and to some extent electric motors too) as much as possible.  They are sooooooo convenient, sure, but they are made of gnarly materials, gotten in gnarly ways, and then they are gnarly waste.  It's just more of the same thinking that got us into this mess in the first place, in my opinion.

That said, I'm almost certainly going to get some solar panels and batteries (they really are so incredibly convenient-- if you can ignore the side-effects and externalities!) But only for a bootstrap phase...  I'll probably get a generator too, and burn fossil fuel in it (unless and until I can tweak it to use alcohol), but again, only as part of a bootstrap phase to get off fossil fuel for good.

To sum up, yeah, use less electricity.  I think we have already gotten to the point where we (in N. America anyway) are using more electricity per person than we really need to live well.  Vaclav Smil points out that we just have to go to 1960's levels of energy use, and things weren't so primitive then, eh?

Use less electricity and energy, and what you do use should be as direct as possible: e.g. passive solar design for climate control.  Instead of hulking SUVs let's make and drive Hypercar ( Hypercar_(concept_car) ) etc.

I think that all of the technology is there, we just have to "get 'er done!"

Alexis Ziegler has done a lot that may interest you at Living Energy Farm in Virginia.

Living Energy Farm: A Community Free of Fossil Fuels?

Douglas Alpenstock wrote:I've seen this kind of stuff in Low-Tech Magazine and No-Tech Magazine.

https://www.lowtechmagazine.com/site-map.html

https://www.notechmagazine.com/

Okay, many similarities or overlaps to what I am preaching, but some key differences too.  I believe that the primary reason for our overdependence on electricity and burned fuels(fossil, wood, bio, anything that produces emissions) and grossly underwhelming utilization of solar heat is because the profit sector (followed by the government) does not want us utilizing solar heat or anything that is simple and low cost because they see it as a threat to their more profitable path. Therefore, there has not been the investment and utilization of tech in solar heat applications that would advance them to where they were utilized by the vast majority of the population.  Technology isn't the problem.  Not applying technology and significant investment into solar heat  is the problem.  Same goes for direct use of power . . . we need to invest in ideas and technology to make direct use of wind and water a common thing in the majority of buildings without first inefficiently converting it to electricity.  There is a good deal of research going into "gravity" batteries for generating electricity, so why not invest in research for using gravity batteries to perform more efficient direct power transfer functions such as running fans, pumps, machines, and other rotation devices?

Richard Kastanie wrote:Alexis Ziegler has done a lot that may interest you at Living Energy Farm in Virginia.

Living Energy Farm: A Community Free of Fossil Fuels?

They are definitely doing some outstanding things compared to the mainstream, but I would not consider them anything close to a poster child example of what I am pushing for.  I believe that the problem with the current focus of the world right now is "decrease dependence on fossil fuels", when we should be pushing hard to decrease our dependence on electricity just as much. Instead, we are engrossed with increasing our dependence on electricity, and not harvesting the very low hanging fruit available through solar heat and direct power transfer (wind & water without converting to electricity). The profit centered corporations have among other things blinded us on how dependent the wind and solar electric industries are on fossil fuels, when you consider the big picture.
In theory any stationary device whose function is to rotate or generate heat could be operated by wind, water, and/or solar heat (again, in theory).  Light, communication systems, and vehicles of any kind are the three primary elements of modern existence that do seem to be totally dependent on electricity and/or fossil fuels.
We should be working hard and investing in reducing our dependence on electricity in any and every totally practical way that we can.  And ways that don't seem practical right now, could become totally practical through an investment in research and tech.

Ron Kulas wrote:Is your discussion ONLY in terms of US energy usage for our homes? IF so, it may be better to encourage OTHERS to do so as that would have a far greater impact. The USA makes up only 5% of the global population. IF EVERY US home went to 100% solar and wind, the global impacts would be near zero.



But by far the greatest usage of electricity in the USA is in the manufacturing/business sector so if you wish for a difference, that too is were efforts should be put to better use.

I fully support and personally strive for reduced dependence on the electrical grid but only for a monetary sake.  

I am only looking at the US initially because the data for household energy use is so readily available.  If investment in research was applied to reduce our (US) dependence on electricity, that would spread and impact the entire world, and much of it would certainly spill over into business and manufacturing . . . and the global impacts would be very substantial.
"but only for a monetary sake. "     what about environmental sake?  Wasn't sure exactly what you meant there.

Ken Carman wrote:Seeking like minded visionaries . . .  

I believe that before or along with wanting to reduce our dependence on fossil fuels, we should be making a push to decrease our dependence on electricity.

I believe we need to invest in researching direct uses of solar, wind, & water that do not require electricity (cut out the middle man). Similar to how wind and water used to power various mills, but now with applying advanced technology, and using in many diverse applications.  

I believe that if we invested in research (time, $$$, and effort) for solar heat (space, water, cooking, cooling, etc.) even a tiny fraction of what we have and continue to invest in solar and wind electric, the return in investment would be far far greater. Solar heat is very efficient, very low cost, and requires very little tech., however it has been all but ignored except among DIY and tiny start-ups . . . even though heating (space, water, cooking) uses a large majority of the energy consumed in every home in the US.

If you would like to join me in making a push for a number of different ways we can reduce our dependence on electricity and fossil fuels, let's start this conversation.  I have a number of ideas of my own, and certainly welcome others.

I believe that there are enough people that feel the same way, and that together we can change the world, much quicker than we ever would on our own.

Look at this US Energy Information Administration page that shows household energy use stats:  https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/use-of-energy/homes.php#:~:text=Electricity%20is%20used%20in%20almost,use%20energy%20consumption%20in%202021.
It mentions that over half is used for (space) heating and cooling, but when you look at the graph you see that space and water heating uses even more, and adding cooling and cooking combines to 75% or more of household energy consumption!

If we used less electricity, we would need much smaller PV(or wind) systems, less battery storage, etc.

Thoughts?

Thanks!

I think your goals are noble but it will be a hard row to hoe as the saying goes. This is not my area of focus since my climate simply does not lend itself well to the all direct solar model you seem to be advocating for. When I got started on my journey there were a great deal of passive solar and low tech active solar tech publications and research. As I digested them I found most of it was aimed at that middle latitude grouping of population with fairly mild climates. When you moved them far south or further north they fell apart. My conclusion was that Some wood heat or battery storage can eliminate a great deal of over building required if you want to live in a direct solar and wind world. I made my peace with the electrical complexity required due to the extreme flexibility it offers.
Cheers, David Baillie

I have been living without electricity, car or other modern conveniences for a bit over a year now. My only energy use is a minuscule amount of firewood for winter heat and cooking Iin your private life it is quite easy to accomplish if you are reasonably fit. Ride your bike, hand wash your laundry, carry your water from the well...

If you only buy things you sorely need, shopping is pretty modest. Charge the phone in the library once a week. Grow and catch your food.

But out society is whirring on energy. Brightly lit roads, shopping centers, industry manufacturing a lot of stuff nobody actually sorely needs, folks travelling around...

Quitting fossil fuel use for myself was easy. Convincing others that it can be done with very little sacrifice is another thing.

Kaarina Kreus wrote:I have been living without electricity, car or other modern conveniences for a bit over a year now. My only energy use is a minuscule amount of firewood for winter heat and cooking Iin your private life it is quite easy to accomplish if you are reasonably fit. Ride your bike, hand wash your laundry, carry your water from the well...

If you only buy things you sorely need, shopping is pretty modest. Charge the phone in the library once a week. Grow and catch your food.

But out society is whirring on energy. Brightly lit roads, shopping centers, industry manufacturing a lot of stuff nobody actually sorely needs, folks travelling around...

Quitting fossil fuel use for myself was easy. Convincing others that it can be done with very little sacrifice is another thing.

Very inspirational Katrina.. you are a champion in my book!

The grid is a very complex machine, THE MOST intricate in all the world and operating within a set of very finite parameters, so it is not easy to balance something that is so fragile, all inclusive, life-dependent and powerful. With that comes greed, but also power, and sadly there are so many back-door shady deals on both sides that it becomes disgusting quickly.

Myself, I know hydro-power, and happen to live on a pretty big river, enough so there is generating stations above and below me. That is another way of saying I have significant flow. But like the original poster mentioned, I really don't consume a lot of electricity. My bill is high here, but only because in Maine, 50% of my residential power bill goes to subsidizing solar electric start-ups. My biggest energy consumption is actually in heating water.

Heating water for domestic hot water
Heating water for my heating system

So I designed a hydro-kinetic hydronic heater that hopefully will prove viable for at least heating my domestic hot water needs, but I hope to make a significant dent on my heating energy needs. Because of where I work, it needs to be patented, but I am in hopes to build this new design and see how many btu's it can generate.

Richard Kastanie wrote:Alexis Ziegler has done a lot that may interest you at Living Energy Farm in Virginia.

Living Energy Farm: A Community Free of Fossil Fuels?

That's wild!  Living Energy Farm they really have their act together.

We really do seem to have all the technology we need already, eh?  So what's the limiting factor?

Shop for used high-voltage panels on Craigslist.  I routinely see 250-260W panels on sale for ~75-80$ right now.  By purchasing used, you are not contributing to the further extraction of raw materials from the Earth, and you are re-using something that would otherwise go into a landfill.  Buying locally off of Craigslist also gets around the very expensive shipping costs that are built into every new panel sold.  Your best deals will be with cash and carry purchases.

I find myself totally self-sufficient with the panel arrays I've built, for 6 years now.  I'm not living a deprived lifestyle.  I have a regular frig/freezer, TV, lights, and internet, all on just <4kWh of my own power per day.  Easy to make that much with recycled panels.  I put my panels on rotating array frames, so they can be positioned East in the morning, and West in the afternoon.  I'm finding that I can make >5kWh of power with just one 1000W array, even in the winter, if it's a sunny day.

Michael Qulek wrote:Shop for used high-voltage panels on Craigslist.  I routinely see 250-260W panels on sale for ~75-80$ right now. .....

Michael, I've been curious about doing this...and maybe it's been discussed before in a different thread....but is there an easy way to 'validate' the quality and remaining power output of used solar panels?  What should one have on hand during a visit to a local supplier of used solar panels to get a feel for what is a 'good deal' and what is not worth the price?  Thanks!

John Weiland wrote:

Michael Qulek wrote:Shop for used high-voltage panels on Craigslist.  I routinely see 250-260W panels on sale for ~75-80$ right now. .....

Michael, I've been curious about doing this...and maybe it's been discussed before in a different thread....but is there an easy way to 'validate' the quality and remaining power output of used solar panels?  What should one have on hand during a visit to a local supplier of used solar panels to get a feel for what is a 'good deal' and what is not worth the price?  Thanks!

Yes, bring a voltmeter with you.  What I've found is that the difference between the measured Voc, compared to the Voc documented on the back of the panel, is a quite good indicator of how much life is left in them.  Voc is the "open circuit" voltage, that is the measured voltage when the panel is not connected to anything, besides the voltmeter.  The Vmp, is the voltage of the panel when under load.

A bit harder to do in the field, but you can measure the amperage the panel puts out when under load.  What I myself have done is connected two 12V batteries in series, and then connected a 60-cell 30V panel to those, and measured the amperage with a clamp meter.  Maybe that is just too much work.  Sticking with just Voc only, I have yet to find a bad panel I was disappointed in.  And that's amongst 3000W of used panels I've bought and brought on-line.

Keep in mind that the real-world amperage is almost always lower than what the nameplate says.  I've seen brand-new Renogy panels put out 87% of nameplate.  I've however seen used REC panels put out 92%, better than other brands new.

Watch though for cracks in the glass, or other physical defects.  I would avoid those.