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Differential windlass

 
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This morning's rabbithole was on differential windlasses.
Basically, by making the shaft of the windlass asymmetrical and winding the rope different ways on each section you not only need less force to lift it, but it doesn't fall if you let go of the crank, which may be the best part as far as I am concerned.  
Neat tech!

a screenshot from the video below


 
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Pearl, have you heard of LowTech Magazine? It is a website devoted to this kind of stuff, but they have print-on-demand books of their entire website available as well. I think you'd love it!
 
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I've always seen it called a "Chinese windlass." It is a remarkably simple piece of engineering. Though I've never heard the part about it not unwinding, I suppose that would require a certain amount of friction in the bearings without some form of pawls or ratchet.
 
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Almond Thompson wrote:Pearl, have you heard of LowTech Magazine? It is a website devoted to this kind of stuff, but they have print-on-demand books of their entire website available as well. I think you'd love it!


Yup. I read it often   And have quoted it here on permies a lot
 
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Jordan Holland wrote: Though I've never heard the part about it not unwinding, I suppose that would require a certain amount of friction in the bearings without some form of pawls or ratchet.


Nope! Has to do with the rope winding going one way and the other. Check the video, all I can manage to  explain is it's all working on the shaft itself, the lift is as the rope moves from one side to the other, not off anything involving the how the axle turns.

And yeah, I tripped over this while thinking about ratcheted winches. I LOVE the fact that it doesn't take a ratchet to do the same thing. Saves me thinking about ratchets this morning :D
 
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Pearl Sutton wrote:This morning's rabbithole was on differential windlasses.
Basically, by making the shaft of the windlass asymmetrical and winding the rope different ways on each section you not only need less force to lift it, but it doesn't fall if you let go of the crank, which may be the best part as far as I am concerned.  
Neat tech!




That's really neat. And just in time for deer season too! We have a simple hoist and it is a pain to try and lift the deer while holding it. we don't have a rachet. It takes 2 people as someone has to prevent the slack and the deer coming back down! It seems that the less difference in radius between the 2 cylinders, the less effort it would take to lift the deer?
I am wondering if suspending the whole contraption from the ceiling will operate differently, rather than having it rest on the ground [I'm referring to the 2 As that were used as a frame] The winding cylinders would have to hang down horizontally low enough to allow the crank to rotate.
I'm really pumped to try and build something like this. Hubby should love it too!
Thanks!
 
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Cécile Stelzer Johnson wrote:


That's really neat. And just in time for deer season too! We have a simple hoist and it is a pain to try and lift the deer while holding it. we don't have a rachet. It takes 2 people as someone has to prevent the slack and the deer coming back down! It seems that the less difference in radius between the 2 cylinders, the less effort it would take to lift the deer?
I am wondering if suspending the whole contraption from the ceiling will operate differently, rather than having it rest on the ground [I'm referring to the 2 As that were used as a frame] The winding cylinders would have to hang down horizontally low enough to allow the crank to rotate.
I'm really pumped to try and build something like this. Hubby should love it too!
Thanks!




Your idea of using it to hoist a deer is brilliant! I have the same problem, as well as the need to lift/lower the animal as I am skinning and butchering.  However, I cannot picture how to do it with placing the winding cylinders below.  If you work it out, please post your solution in this thread.  A sketch, along with description, is most helpful to those of us (like me) who have trouble picturing things from verbal descriptions!

Thanks so much!
 
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Cécile Stelzer Johnson wrote: And just in time for deer season too! We have a simple hoist and it is a pain to try and lift the deer while holding it. we don't have a rachet. It takes 2 people as someone has to prevent the slack and the deer coming back down! It seems that the less difference in radius between the 2 cylinders, the less effort it would take to lift the deer?
I am wondering if suspending the whole contraption from the ceiling will operate differently, rather than having it rest on the ground [I'm referring to the 2 As that were used as a frame] The winding cylinders would have to hang down horizontally low enough to allow the crank to rotate.


I saw a picture like this a long time ago, and never thought of how useful it would be for deer hoisting!

Yes, the less difference in the radii, the less effort - but you need more room for the rope to pile up and more rope. Hubby used a combination of pulleys to build what I think is called a "block and tackle", and the amount of rope adds up fast! At least with this contraption, the rope is under control.

One of the problems I immediately noticed with the examples given, was how it needed to be attached some where to some thing that would give you the height you need, but you could still reach the crank. So your idea of hanging it from a ceiling - particularly a high ceiling - seems excellent.

The other issue with the whole concept is the ability to move such a thing around. We have a bunch of commercial ratchet pullers (also called "come-alongs" locally), but they have to be attached to something that can handle the stress of what you're trying to accomplish. If the attachment point wasn't in a convenient place, we'd have to use more rope, but more rope had more stretchiness that had to be taken up, so then the ratchet would run out of distance. So now Hubby uses a bunch of big pulleys, a larger roll of wire rope, and usually the tractor to do the pulling. The system still needs a solid starting point.
 
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Jay, it could be flipped around where the crank and drums were the movable part and the sheave block the stationary part. Here's a highly professional drawing to clearly illustrate. I added an extra sheave to make the rope wind more evenly. With the hooks on each end, you can see how it could be easily reversed to whichever way is more convenient.
Screenshot_20231107-181210.png
Super awesome drawing of hypothetical Chinese windlass
Super awesome drawing of hypothetical Chinese windlass
 
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Jordan Holland wrote:Jay, it could be flipped around where the crank and drums were the movable part and the sheave block the stationary part.


That's what I want to do, why I was looking it up. I want something I can pedal that will take me up a sloped surface on wheels. Think winch on a soap box derby car. Something along those lines. So the pedals would be with the different sized spindles, and the rope goes around a stationary thing with a pulley.
 
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Pearl Sutton wrote: So the pedals would be with the different sized spindles, and the rope goes around a stationary thing with a pulley.

Are you thinking you'd put spindles between your legs and have a crank on each end offset by 180 degrees, or set up a short chain?

And wrote:

 I want something I can pedal that will take me up a sloped surface on wheels. Think winch on a soap box derby car.


Theoretically, wouldn't you be able to pedal yourself back down as well? You'd need to be able to, or the "car" would be stuck at the top once you pedalled up there?
 
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Jordan Holland wrote:Jay, it could be flipped around where the crank and drums were the movable part and the sheave block the stationary part. Here's a highly professional drawing to clearly illustrate. I added an extra sheave to make the rope wind more evenly. With the hooks on each end, you can see how it could be easily reversed to whichever way is more convenient.



I love your highly professional drawing, Jordan.  I can actually see how it works!  However, it also makes me realize there is another problem to solve   Although you have brought the crank down to within reach when you begin hoisting, it will inevitably still have to rise above the highest part of the deer, well out of reach.  Is there a way to secure the cranking mechanism within reach and run the rope being lifted (as in the video of the windlass) over another pulley so that it can lift the deer (or whatever other weight) overhead without the operator having to follow it upward?  
 
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Freyda Black wrote:
I love your highly professional drawing, Jordan.  I can actually see how it works!  However, it also makes me realize there is another problem to solve   Although you have brought the crank down to within reach when you begin hoisting, it will inevitably still have to rise above the highest part of the deer, well out of reach.  Is there a way to secure the cranking mechanism within reach and run the rope being lifted (as in the video of the windlass) over another pulley so that it can lift the deer (or whatever other weight) overhead without the operator having to follow it upward?  



Thank you Freyda, I surprise even myself sometimes. Yes, what you describe would be the likely way people would have done it. Like they would have done on wooden ships, there would be a stationary capstan built into the deck, since such a thing could not be easily movable. Blocks and tackle could then be used to route the pulling power anywhere it was needed. The thing about simple machines is that they can be combined in any way you can imagine.
 
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I love it. I remember seeing this in a book years ago. It's something you can easily recreate and use for all kinds of things. The kids will have fun with this.
 
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Jay Angler wrote:

Pearl Sutton wrote: So the pedals would be with the different sized spindles, and the rope goes around a stationary thing with a pulley.

Are you thinking you'd put spindles between your legs and have a crank on each end offset by 180 degrees, or set up a short chain?


Pedals in the middle, shaft has the big drum on one side, small one on the other. Rope that goes up to a pulley at the top.

And wrote:

 I want something I can pedal that will take me up a sloped surface on wheels. Think winch on a soap box derby car.


Theoretically, wouldn't you be able to pedal yourself back down as well? You'd need to be able to, or the "car" would be stuck at the top once you pedalled up there?


Yup, exactly, controlled movement each way.
That's why I was looking at ratchets, to move it only the way I wanted to go, when I found this instead, MUCH more my speed of tech! I like things I can modify to suit myself.
 
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Pearl Sutton wrote:

Jordan Holland wrote:Jay, it could be flipped around where the crank and drums were the movable part and the sheave block the stationary part.


That's what I want to do, why I was looking it up. I want something I can pedal that will take me up a sloped surface on wheels. Think winch on a soap box derby car. Something along those lines. So the pedals would be with the different sized spindles, and the rope goes around a stationary thing with a pulley.



So, is this why I was thinking of the "Chinese windlass" a few days ago?! WTF.

There is a chain hoist version of this as well, a hook and double pulley at the top with the two different sized chain gears, and a smaller chain pulley at the bottom with a hook for the load. An endless loop of chain goes over one gear, down to the pulley , back up and over the smaller gear, and down again to complete the loop. the loop outside the pulleys is how you operate it, pull on one side to raise, the other side to lower.

Pearl, you must already know about the bicycle treehouse elevator... Like most elevators it is using a counterweight as well as mechanical advantage. Possibly applicable to you if your needs are A-->B, B-->A or maybe even "anywhere" the rope reaches to/from "A"
 
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Kenneth: Yeah I took notes on the chain hoist too.
I'll look up the bicycle treehouse elevator, been a long time since I thought of it or read about it.

And I probably psychically sent the idea to you, hoping you'd have input  :D
 
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Kenneth Elwell wrote:
There is a chain hoist version of this as well, a hook and double pulley at the top with the two different sized chain gears, and a smaller chain pulley at the bottom with a hook for the load. An endless loop of chain goes over one gear, down to the pulley , back up and over the smaller gear, and down again to complete the loop. the loop outside the pulleys is how you operate it, pull on one side to raise, the other side to lower.



Kenneth,
your description sounds like exactly what I need to build. Unfortunately, I cannot follow the text explanation and picture it.
Could you provide a sketch, or a link to something like what you describe so that I can get an idea of how to put that together?
Thanks
 
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Kenneth Elwell wrote:There is a chain hoist version of this as well, a hook and double pulley at the top with the two different sized chain gears, and a smaller chain pulley at the bottom with a hook for the load. An endless loop of chain goes over one gear, down to the pulley , back up and over the smaller gear, and down again to complete the loop. the loop outside the pulleys is how you operate it, pull on one side to raise, the other side to lower.



If this is a chain fall hoist, all I have seen are a different mechanism. They have gears, clutches, ratchets, etc.
chain-block.jpg
[Thumbnail for chain-block.jpg]
 
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This is what I put in my notes about chain hoists:
differential_pulley_windlass-Comparison.jpg
Differential windlass--Differential chain hoist comparison
Differential windlass--Differential chain hoist comparison
 
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Thank you for this great illustration! If I am reading it properly, the differential pulley has one continuous chain can run in grooves on the "gears" and one pulls the chain that runs to the larger gear by hand.  It could be mounted on a crossbeam above and used two left I heavy object like a deer for processing.

One more question. Since the gears are above one's head, can there be excess chain so that it can be reached from below? I would also assume that this arrangement would require something hook the pulley chain to in order to hold the object aloft?
 
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Freyda Black wrote:Thank you for this great illustration! If I am reading it properly, the differential pulley has one continuous chain can run in grooves on the "gears" and one pulls the chain that runs to the larger gear by hand.  It could be mounted on a crossbeam above and used two left I heavy object like a deer for processing.


Yes. They use these for engine hoists.

One more question. Since the gears are above one's head, can there be excess chain so that it can be reached from below? I would also assume that this arrangement would require something hook the pulley chain to in order to hold the object aloft?
Length of extra chain is irrelevant, use the amount you need. You can probably buy one sold as an engine hoist, you might check.  
The load should not unwind on it's own. That's what these are made for. You might want to put a secondary line just so butchering motion doesn't move it, but they hold up engines without a back up (although I'd put a backup, just because, I'm a belt and suspenders type. )
 
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Pearl Sutton wrote:You might want to put a secondary line just so butchering motion doesn't move it, but they hold up engines without a back up (although I'd put a backup, just because, I'm a belt and suspenders type. )

And because your a safety first type as well. If the consequence of a failure is ugly, please everyone, put safety first! There's a reason some accidents are labelled "preventable". In the case of cars, Hubby refuses to call them "accidents" and uses the term "collisions".
 
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Pearl Sutton wrote:
One more question. Since the gears are above one's head, can there be excess chain so that it can be reached from below? I would also assume that this arrangement would require something hook the pulley chain to in order to hold the object aloft?
Length of extra chain is irrelevant, use the amount you need. You can probably buy one sold as an engine hoist, you might check.  
The load should not unwind on it's own. That's what these are made for. You might want to put a secondary line just so butchering motion doesn't move it, but they hold up engines without a back up (although I'd put a backup, just because, I'm a belt and suspenders type. )




Aha, thank you, Pearl, for causing me to consider the chain hoist diagram again in relation to the length of the chain.  I think I finally understand how it works.  Please let me know if I am correct.

When the small cylinder (holding the hook) is at its lowest point, the chain has no slack.  As you pull the chain going to the large gear, it lifts the cylinder/hook  and slack is created in the chain as the smaller gear does not move. When you want to raise the hook, you would need to pull the chain running from the hook/cylinder to the small gear, not the slack part of the chain.   This would necessitate reaching above the hook, unless you had an additional piece of chain or rope attached to that section of chain above the hook cyclinder. Is this correct?
 
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Freyda Black wrote:
Aha, thank you, Pearl, for causing me to consider the chain hoist diagram again in relation to the length of the chain.  I think I finally understand how it works.  Please let me know if I am correct.

When the small cylinder (holding the hook) is at its lowest point, the chain has no slack.  As you pull the chain going to the large gear, it lifts the cylinder/hook  and slack is created in the chain as the smaller gear does not move. When you want to raise the hook, you would need to pull the chain running from the hook/cylinder to the small gear, not the slack part of the chain.   This would necessitate reaching above the hook, unless you had an additional piece of chain or rope attached to that section of chain above the hook cyclinder. Is this correct?



In the pic of the differential chain hoist that Pearl posted, the total length of the chain can be as long as you wish. Imagine the slack part hanging down where the hand is holding it, that part can hang down as long as you wish. As the load is raised, the amount of slack will actually increase and hang down lower, and vice versa.
 
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Jordan Holland wrote:In the pic of the differential chain hoist that Pearl posted, the total length of the chain can be as long as you wish. Imagine the slack part hanging down where the hand is holding it, that part can hang down as long as you wish. As the load is raised, the amount of slack will actually increase and hang down lower, and vice versa.

It's also drawn with the "pink" moving part very close to the toothed gears to keep the picture small. If you picture the pink part 10 inches down so there's room for the hand to pull it up, along with the longer chain Jordan's describing, that might help also.
 
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When my kids were young,  we tended to buy them toys which could grow with them - in other words, things like lego and K'nex. When the kids grew up, they went into bins on a shelf.

So tonight my now close to 30 year old Mechanical Engineer son and I, built a differential windlass out of K'nex. Not as easy as the guy in the video suggests.

The issues we ran into: 1. I really needed to have extra string wrapped around both sizes of the barrel. Things tended to go weird when one side ran out of rope.
2. The rope I had in the drawer had too much twist. I'm thinking a braided rope would have less tendency to spin the weight. Once the rope twisted on itself, the windlass stopped working.
3. We were just using a couple of K'nex wheels as the weight and I think it would have worked better with a heavier weight. Maybe I'll test that hypothesis tomorrow.

It was absolutely worth experimenting with the model to see how different factors affected how it worked.

I was hoping to build one of the chain hoist gizmos, but we don't have "chain" that fits the K'nex pieces in the bin. I may have some the right size elsewhere, so I'll have a look tomorrow.

 
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I forgot to post here that for Christmas, I bought myself a chain hoist! Not a high end one, but what I could afford. Northern tools, about 70.00, the brand is Ironton and it will lift 1100 pounds up 10 feet.
Honestly, I haven't even opened it yet, as I have no way at this rental to even hook it up, there's nothing structural I trust in this place. But I will get there.  

I have plans, she said darkly....



 
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Pearl Sutton wrote:Honestly, I haven't even opened it yet, as I have no way at this rental to even hook it up, there's nothing structural I trust in this place. But I will get there.  

I have plans, she said darkly....

A friend of mine built a tripod (unless it had 4 legs... maybe) out of metal well pipe and various fittings to hold his chain hoist. He was working on old diesel engines as he's into biodiesel. I don't know if it's still assembled, but I can ask questions if it would help.
 
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I'm back to this idea again, after getting something out of my neighbor's trash. She threw away a cheap hose reel, with wheels, like this one

I snagged it because I have a long heavy gauge extension cord that could use a storage thing with wheels, as it's not easy to move around.

But then I started thinking....

If you double wound it to be a differential windlass, it has wheels, you could take it to where you wanted it, and it has a handle etc, you could tie it to a tree and crank whatever you wanted to move to where it's tied.

Then I thought more....

It's cheaply built out of plastic, needs bigger wheels to cope with my terrain, and the handle is too low to the ground to get good leverage, and too short to geed good force on it.

So.
Design something that has good wheels, a solid frame designed to strap to trees or posts easily, and a crank at a good height that has a dual length handle so you can either get torque (longer handle) or move it quickly (shorter handle.) Make the turning shaft diameter at least 6 inches so you don't end up with a lot of useless cranking.  

Everyone can solve it their own way, personally, I'm visualizing something like my favorite box moving dolly I use all the time that I put much better wheels on. It would need a shaft and crank on it, that actually, could be removable... hmm...

Interesting thoughts!!
:D
 
Jay Angler
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That rescue does look great for moving and storing a heavy gauge extension cord, but I totally agree that it needs a wheel upgrade.

I once had something similar and found it too wimpy/tippy for even a decent quality hose. If I want to store hoses, ideally I put a rounded form about 5 ft off the ground on anything firm like a shed or post. Then I just do large loops over it with each accounting for almost 10 ft of hose. Very quick. A car tire rim can be upcycled for the "rounded form" if there are used ones kicking around.  
 
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