Are bad dogs worth training?

I'm moving onto my inlaw's property this month, we have big dreams for pastured chickens this year.

They currently have two "cattle dogs" that are actually just "killer dogs". They attack everything that moves except the family. This includes other dogs, coyotes, raccoons, and most of all their chickens. Inlaws had to build a high fence around the enclosure and god forbid if one gets out. They terrorize the neighbors' cattle and I am surprised no one has "taken care" of them yet.

They're 3 years old and hangin' tree is their breed mix. Are they worth training? I found a local trainer that offers 8 lessons in obedience and aggression, but it will cost at least $1000 for each dog. The dogs are egged on by the family currently living there, so I'm afraid that even with training they will just come home and be encouraged to terrorize.

Has anyone here brought "bad" dogs back and made them ok to be around chickens, other dogs, small children etc? I don't want to risk them around our chickens, but we're also hoping to make some babies in the next year, and I want an environment that I can set my baby down, outside, on our own property, without worrying about dog attacks. Any advice with convincing inlaws to get training or get rid of them?

I would never risk to try to change a killer dog and be confident that it will be safe for a domestic animal. I would never ever consider to put it by a child.. And two thousand dollars on top of that...

Most of my farm experience has been in the Dominican Repermies, where chickens run free and the dogs stay in pens. Dogs that kill chickens are enemy number one, followed closely by hawks. They are shot on sight by anyone who is armed. Being an avid birdwatcher, the bit about the hawks has been very saddening to me - but I think the dispatching of such dogs is not unreasonable. I like dogs and I don't much like chickens (except to eat), but in a place where a dog has been trained (even by neglect) to many bad habits, it seems reasonable to eliminate them.

Poisoning can be problematic because it is hard to "aim" and something else may be poisoned instead. Shooting is noisy but quick. They say onions, chocolate, and raisins are all poisonous to dogs in sufficient quantity, and they are not poisons that would kill lots of other animals. Benadryl tablets can also be used to put a dog "to sleep" and are not otherwise particularly toxic. These are all just food for thought . . .

Cade Johnson wrote:it seems reasonable to eliminate them.

Yeah... I think these are reasonable points and maybe they should be eliminated... they're not my dogs. I think I'll have to have a long conversation with the inlaws about it

It sounds like a precarious situation.

I'm moving onto my inlaw's property this month,

Is this a paid arrangement, or are they allowing you to move there for free? If the former, you might bring the issue up as part of the "contract," if the latter, it may be considered rather poor form to move there and start demanding them to change.

I suspect the odds of training them are quite dismal. Owners are egging them on, there are more than one (pack mentality), and they have been doing it for a while. I would think 8 lessons would be inadequate in the first place, but if the owners are not going to continue enforcing the training, there is virtually no chance of it taking.

I have the sweetest dog, but his prey drive is off the charts. He loves people, dogs (he has perfect doggy manners), adores children, but I don't think his prey drive could ever be truly trained away, even as smart as he is. As he has gotten older, I have been successful at times calling him off of a chase at just the right moment before it starts, but once the adrenaline kicks in, his conscious mind (which is so eager to please me) completely shuts off and the primal prey drive completely takes over. After that, there is nothing else in the universe to him other than the prey. I tried early on to change it by getting some chicks to raise in the house in a cage until they were big enough to need to go outside. What happened was while I was away from home, he laid on the couch as if they didn't exist. When I was at home, he stood guard at the cage making sure the baby chicks didn't murder me. So it appears his prey drive is intermingled with his protection drive, and I just don't know if it would ever be possible to train that out of him.

For the $2000, a fairly large area could be fenced in for your chickens.

I know it's an unpopular opinion, but dogs (and cats) are just livestock that we keep inside, and tend to get more attached to. A dangerous dog isn't worth having around. My wife found a stray cattle dog once, and it was incredibly dangerous. It had to have a muzzle on constantly, and even with the muzzle would constantly try to attack. One day it was outside on a tie out without the muzzle, and my son accidentally walked within distance of it, and it grabbed his leg and tore him wide open requiring 13 stitches. I refuse to have a dog around that I consider dangerous, they aren't worth the risk.

Jordan Holland wrote: Is this a paid arrangement, or are they allowing you to move there for free? If the former, you might bring the issue up as part of the "contract," if the latter, it may be considered rather poor form to move there and start demanding them to change.

We are moving there for free... but they've been begging for us to move there so we have a bit of leverage. We will have a contract for the land we "rent" to farm on, and may be able to negotiate it as part of that?

Jordan Holland wrote: For the $2000, a fairly large area could be fenced in for your chickens.

This is a good point, but I think I'm more concerned about them being immediately killed if they get out, or god forbid the dogs ever make it in there. We are going to sell broilers, and so if the dogs kill them, they're taking our income. The chickens aren't free-ranging, they'll be in chicken tractors in a 5 acre field. I've seen these demon dogs corner a raccoon and force it to drown itself, so I feel like they'll be smart enough to dig under the tractors.

I'm also concerned because I would like to get a livestock guardian dog (and a family dog that's ours) and I'm worried that these dogs will kill them too. Maybe the inlaws will understand if we just explain all our concerns.

Hayley Brown, are you sure that moving there is a good idea?

Psycho dogs often indicate psycho owners. The dogs (which should be put down) are a big red warning flag of the situation you are walking into.

If your intuition / gut feeling seems "off" you should listen to it. Just looking at this situation has my spidey sense going off like fireworks.

First, be safe. Luck to you!

Dogs that "will attack everything that moves", are dogs that will attack anything that moves.

Douglas Alpenstock wrote:Hayley Brown, are you sure that moving there is a good idea?

Psycho dogs often indicate psycho owners. The dogs (which should be put down) are a big red warning flag of the situation you are walking into.

If your intuition / gut feeling seems "off" you should listen to it. Just looking at this situation has my spidey sense going off like fireworks.

First, be safe. Luck to you!

Thank you for the concern!! My inlaws are kind, loving people, they just really wanted "protector" dogs and have encouraged that mentality while training literally nothing else. They are more retired and preppers than homesteaders, so they never thought about the long term consequences for livestock or if we ever moved out there.

We're moving our first truckload this weekend, so we will sit down and have that hard conversation with them.

I am NOT sure if moving is a good idea. But we're young, we have free land, and there's nothing to lose. If we hate it or it's a toxic environment, we can always go somewhere else. But to be honest, I'm scared shitless, we live 1500 miles away currently and this is the scariest thing I've ever done. I might be fixating on the dogs because it is one thing I can't plan until I get there and everything else is all settled.

Maybe just tell them the dogs terrify you. I would assume that’s probably your only chance. They clearly have encouraged this terrible behavior so they obviously see the attacking animals as no problem.

How do you expect customers to come get chickens or produce etc with a couple vicious dogs? Heck how do know the dogs will look at you like family if you’re from across the country.

I would seriously try to have this conversation as soon as possible. People get weird about animals. My ex mil would put dogs down that bit animals or livestock but some stupid dog her husband had bit a grandchild and what do you know there’s some bs story about how dog didn’t mean too. If only the 7yo hadn’t ran… I wish this was made up. Was not my kid so I stayed out of it and made it very clear what would happen if that dog was ever in site of my children.

The thing that will make this worse is nobody will take dogs like that so you’re pretty much asking them to put the dogs down. Which sounds like is the right decision anyways.

Good luck.

Hayley Brown wrote: If we hate it or it's a toxic environment, we can always go somewhere else. But to be honest, I'm scared shitless, we live 1500 miles away currently and this is the scariest thing I've ever done.

I would put a time limit on my plans for that move, and a list of things which are non-negotiable. Like: if the dog kills my dog, chicken etc, I move out. I would let the inlaws (and anyone involved) know about it, without expecting much empathy from them.
The inlaws might believe that their dogs aren't as bad, or may be that type of owners who think like "if I didn't see it, it didn't happen" (I'm dealing with that type too, very destructive to my garden).

Training aggressive dogs is another issue, I would be very careful with choosing a trainer who decides to do that. Often they use dominance/intimidation which is meant to suppress the dog, and as a result the aggression doesn't go away, it's just "hidden" under sort of resignation. I think it's not effective and often close to animal cruelty (the dog is still suffering inside). Many times it's better to put down the dog, than train it with these methods. Either way, it's an investment of time and money, which I wouldn't do for someone else; it's their responsibility.

Joe Hallmark wrote:Maybe just tell them the dogs terrify you. I would assume that’s probably your only chance. They clearly have encouraged this terrible behavior so they obviously see the attacking animals as no problem.

I agree. especially if you can make it about "I really want to live here with the baby but I'm afraid". I would hope grandparents (or potential grandparents ) would be moved by that and maybe help come up with a solution.

Also 2000 is a lot. There are no guarantees with aggression, I found with trainers, and even if they do have some sort of success whatever you learn in "school" goes out the window if they dogs come home and the owners don't keep up the work.

Honestly I'd want a bombproof fence to even think about having children around dogs like that, and i wouldn't even try chickens. A chicken is a great motivator for dogs to come up with new craziness, like scaling fences.
I've got this crazy Malinois... It's been a few months since he's killed or come close to killing anything. I have been working obedience hard for a year now and I can trust him with children (if they don't scream or hit him), but he will kill my rabbits if i give him half a chance, no matter how obedient he is.... his genetics speak louder than whatever i can make him do. Hunters are going to hunt. Especially if they're encouraged by their people. And if you have a pair that does mischief together.... yikes.

I understand and share your concerns about the chickens.

However, moving for free onto someone else's property and wishing them to get rid of their dogs is pretty low behavior. Your chickens will be safe if you fence the chicken area correctly, and you do your part with closing gates/repair of the fence, etc.  The dogs will probably ensure that no other critters get to your chickens, and in fact, those critters are probably long gone from the area.

Many of the rest of the posters seem to have forgotten in their sweet suburban Norman Rockwell daydreams  that for millennia people living on homesteads far away from other people have kept dogs partially as alarms and protective family members. These days people seem to think that a dog that isn't "nice" is a bad dog.  Nothing could be further from the truth.  I bet the in-laws have never had a problem with two or four leg varmints  around their place. That sort of security is worth the trouble.

I notice that none of you called out the guy talking about poisoning dogs.   That's disappointing but I guess to expected when the basic theme of the thread is to have these older people get rid of their dogs so the person moving there free can have chickens more easily.

Edit- I do agree with almost everyone that you shouldn't move there. You definitely shouldn't move on to their land and repay their hospitality by encouraging them to kill their dogs.  I further suggest you let them read your posts on the matter, see what they think about your plans for their dogs.  

Jeff Lindsey wrote:I understand and share your concerns about the chickens.

However, moving for free onto someone else's property and wishing them to get rid of their dogs is pretty low behavior. Your chickens will be safe if you fence the chicken area correctly, and you do your part with closing gates/repair of the fence, etc.  The dogs will probably ensure that no other critters get to your chickens, and in fact, those critters are probably long gone from the area.

Many of the rest of the posters seem to have forgotten in their sweet suburban Norman Rockwell daydreams  that for millennia people living on homesteads far away from other people have kept dogs partially as alarms and protective family members. These days people seem to think that a dog that isn't "nice" is a bad dog.  Nothing could be further from the truth.  I bet the in-laws have never had a problem with two or four leg varmints  around their place. That sort of security is worth the trouble.

I notice that none of you called out the guy talking about poisoning dogs.   That's disappointing but I guess to expected when the basic theme of the thread is to have these older people get rid of their dogs so the person moving there free can have chickens more easily.

I understand that a good guard dog is a valuable thing, bit theres a difference between a guard dog and a dog that just likes to bite and attack. One will keep your family safe, the other is likely to tear a kid's face off given the chance, nevermind the chickens.