looking for a dowser in missoula

Anybody know of a dowser in the missoula area?

Not personally, but a google search shows several.

I would imagine there are independants and non-members, but some would say that you should only seek a dowser from the American Society...

The American Society of Dowsers
184 Brainerd Street PO Box 24.
Danville, VT 05828.
Phone: (802) 684-3417.
Fax: (802) 684-2565.
Email: asd@dowsers.org

I'm interested by your last post, Paul. When you first posted in the Drinking Water thread about dowsers, I thought you were joking until I saw this thread. I kept my mouth shut for fear of saying something disparaging that my offend someone here, but with you posting the Dawkins video, I'm wondering if this is a serious request? Or are you just grasping for straws here?

Personally, I'd think you'd be better off asking if there are any hydrologists in Missoula. I also think my suggestion in the other thread about examining the publicly available geologic maps is a good first step also. I'd be happy to offer up any geologic expertise I can (Geology is my academic background) in the way of subsurface mapping and analysis although there is only so much I could do remotely. I'd also call up the Montana Bureau of Mines and Geology and ask if they have any specific data for your area.

The provide lots of GIS data packages for many areas. http://www.mbmg.mtech.edu/gis/gis-datalinks.asp You should be able to find water table depths in there.

I'd be happy to do some data digging here if you want. If that would be helpful, you can PM me the location of TL and I can see what I can dig up.

I hear a lot of support for dowsers and a lot of folks that think it is hooey. At this point, I've dug two sixteen foot holes, both in spots where I felt certain I would find water within 10 feet. I was wrong.

I'm open to the idea of a dowser picking a spot and seeing if their spot is more productive. It might be because of their skill with the rods, or it could be because of their own subconscious guesses.

This is a valley between some mountains and nobody lives close by. And the geology changes dramatically (one hole was pure silt and clay, the next hole was pure sand and rocks - no silt or clay).

You might try contacting local well drilling outfits. Where I live, they often work with a dowser since groundwater is a bit scarce. Local knowledge+skilled professional+voodoo hunch just might be enough for the win, hope so.

We have very spotty groundwater and highly variable geology, to where some wells hit water and some dont. My well hit a low flow of good water at 250', my neighbor to the north dug two dry holes. My neighbor to the west hit water at 80', but not potable and dirty. Russian roulette for well drillers. I do know that a dowser comfirmed water where my well was dug before they brought out the drill rig. He was so confident that the well had to be located at the exact spot of the well that they dug it outside of the drilling envelope approved by the state, knowing that the state approved site would be dry. The state wasnt happy but still approved the well. So that's one anecdotal success story, WFIW.

Often the well driller will take *some* responsibility for successfully hitting water, and work that into what they charge you. If their dowser guy comes out and says no way, then they may not be inclined to even try and dig a hole. Conversely, if their dowser is confident, then they may drill a test hole and split the cost with you. Or something along these lines. Good luck, I am really excited for your project and hope that you can hit a rich vein of water hassle-free.

The soil types might change dramatically, but the geology doesn't...

Based on your earlier description of your holes, it sounds like you are digging in an alluvial fan. What you found is exactly what you would expect to find; Silt and clay in the low spots and sand and rock higher up. You stated that you thought that there would be water running beneath the surface, but that doesn't happen unless you have bedrock near to the surface that the water is flowing upon. It is very unlikely that you will find water at shallow depth in alluvial fan deposits.

Definitely an alluvial fan (I always thinking of it as a sort of delta made by meandering - then the creek creates a new path that under all of that). So I went closer to the mountain, thinking that there would be no fan. That's where it was all sand.

I found on this page that they have an online map of all statewide monitoring network wells and Ground Water Information Center wells: http://data.mbmg.mtech.edu/mapper/mapper.asp

You have to zoom quite a way into an area to see most of the well sites but it will tell you the depth of the well as well as the amount of water that the well yields.

In case you haven't yet found a dowser, I know a fantastic one! He is the President of the ASD here in Western Montana, Bitterroot Valley and he works all over!

Contact Michael Hoefler (Victor, MT): 1-406-642-3630 and tell him I sent you!

Jesse and Ryan went out and did some dowsing. It was their first time. They did notice stuff happening. So I tried it - the rods moved for me too.

I'm generally a sceptic about dowsing - at least the more nutty "let me dangle a pendulum over a map and locate the lost child" type.

That said I have tried the classic form, walking along with a pair of bent coathanger wires. There were some definite strong signals in places, although I our case I manged to locate a sewer pipe and a buried cable!

Our geology is about 500m of chalk, with the water table about 40m below the surface. Dowsing for water is pretty irrelevant here because any well you drill will hit at pretty much the same depth. We had a bore put in last year for irrigation - it can put out around 80 litres a minute (the pump's maximum) indefinitely.

Mike

On the subject of the video " Dawkins debunks dowsing ".

There are such things as lay lines.
Generally they have to be checked out first, for the dowsers awareness of the area. After which discrepancies and variation in the lay-line grid will indicate water. People gifted and experienced may be successful with the dowsing without working first on the lay-lines, is my understandng.

Hence the experiment by Dawkins is narrow - and pretty hopeless in proving anything unfortunately. <- that's just in my opinion.

It wasn't nice to see the disappointment in people when they failed - and hopefully they don't give up on their belief in their abilities because of that experiment.


Anybody used dowsing-rods on old properties? Houses of the 100+ years of age. Their walls will often follow lay-lines.

And what about Damanhur - on the subject of lay lines.

OK, so maybe I am the "nutty" type of dowser haha! Basically? I dowse just about everything - except for where to drill for water on land!

It isn't about space so much for me as it is about TIMING. There are other things I use it for of course, but timing is the main use and that is something I am good at. If I was good at the type of dowsing that Paul needs on the farm, I would have stepped up.

One crazy example of timing: So while I wasn't permitted to find a lost child in the woods near Bozeman in 2008, I was told by my pendulum he would show up in exactly two hours and that he would be perfectly healthy. Search and Rescue was already looking for him, and others in our group stayed behind to help (and I would have too had I been granted permission hehe). However, I was given permission to tell the boy's mother and that made me nervous as I didn't know her belief system. I am sure I sounded completely awkward when I told her who I am, what I do and all that stuff, then told her that her son is fine and he would show up in exactly two hours. She thanked me and I left. Later that evening, some of our group members found me and were astounded - despite Search and Rescue's and everyone's efforts, the boy just showed up for his mother at the very MINUTE that made it two hours! I honestly wondered if he was in a vortex or a wormhole or something, not even knowing he was lost or anything, as it was reported he wasn't scared or anything. In any case, the group members told me that I ended up comforting the mother by giving her hope. So did I create this? No, since I am a mother and every second would have been excruciating if it were me and I would have returned him immediately if not the day before! I align myself with the highest good and did what my pendulum told me to do. The source of that information was apparently from a higher place than me! I should note that in the past I have changed time-tables with the highest good's permission (like if I need a check in the mail faster) but this time I was not permitted at all.

Other examples usually involve me in a store needing to choose between foods, beauty needs, and oh - you name it! Or when I lived in a larger city, to find the best driving route for that time of day that would be the fastest, or to find a parking space. It never steers me wrong and is always what I need at that very time (or for the person I am dowsing for as it isn't always for me). There are other ways to do this, but I prefer a pendulum (or something that swings freely in all directions if my pendulum is not with me). Some people change the weather, but I usually don't mess with nature very much (sometimes too high a price to pay!)

For those of you who are Christian in belief, the part of the Lord's Prayer that says, "Thy rod and thy staff, they comfort me," is actually addressing dowsing. For those of you who like science (nowadays its own belief system), it seems every day something shows that these things are possible. When you experience it constantly over and over after you discover it, you don't need science or anything else to prove it to you anymore

Vern Bandy is the guy you want. He's Bozeman based but he travels all over. I'm sure you could convince him to come to your place. A google search on him comes up with this article.

He's an incredibly sweet and knowledgeable guy. He's in his 80's but still in the most incredible health. He's a third generation dowser. I got to see him work in Livingston a couple of weeks ago and everyone around here knows about him. Some drilling companies won't drill without having him pick the spot first.

Dowsing rods don't work for me. In California Sepp said they don't work for him either. What I found most interesting was when I had one end of the dowsing rod and Vern had the other all he had to do was touch my arm for it to point again. I don't feel comfortable posting his number on a public form without his consent, but if people PM me for it I will send it to them.

I wonder what became of the search for a dowser and what is the latest on the water?
It may have been addressed in a more recent podcast, I don' know. My interest was recently peeked while listening to an older podcast with Paul, Jesse, and Ryan discussing their own dowsing experiences.

I'd like to know too! My dad, a civil engineer (water, waste water) often used dowsing for such diverse applications as locating spots for wells in mountainous areas to finding buried drip irrigation tubing at home. Granted, being an engineer, he had some clue as to the hydrology and geology of a site prior to dowsing - so, at least for him, there was science involved.

I'll tell you too that my mother and I have also used iron rods and the ever-popular freshly-cut branched twig and have located parts of the irrigation system. It's an interesting little experiment. My mom has more luck with the iron rods. For me the fresh cut twig works best - really weird to see that thing bouncing away when you get near a water source! And I'll admit to being skeptical about dowsing - very skeptical! I want to know what makes it work or seem to work!

We used the excavator to dig a 16 foot deep hole in nearly every spot that the dowsing rods said to dig. In a couple of spots we dug a pit next to the hole, so we could drive the excavator into the pit and dig an even deeper hole.

Nothing.

So we tried the mud pump in two spots. I think Jesse got one of those down to about 25 feet.

Nothing.

We are about to launch a new kickstarter. If the kickstarter does well, we will buy some new equipment and try again.

Wow. So where does the water come from right now? Is it all precipitation?

-CK

When you say "where does the water come from", what do you have in mind as "the water"?

Currently, yes, there is rain and snow on the land.

Sorry Paul, I was just referring to the moisture that keeps the trees alive and the soil from blowing away as dust.

The last time I checked the situation out, you were talking about having not dry soil down 16 feet. I guess I interpreted that as moisture.

I hope you have better luck soon.

-CK

Oh, and Lisa, the line, "Thy rod and staff doth comfort me," is from a hymn called "The Lord is my Shepherd," and not the Lord's Prayer.

I think that if it is a reference to dowsing, you should be able to offer better evidence than you have.

-CK

There is rain and snow of course.

No creek or lake or pond. Not even a seasonal creek. Sometimes there are mud puddles in places.

I think there is a creek that is underground. But it could be hundreds of feet deep.

Did you find a dowser? I dowse water wells, gas lines, contaminates, locate missing people, and locate dig sites for minerals on maps, etc... It seems there is little faith here on the usefulness of dowsing. I get repeat and referral business and that would indicate some type of success. Sadie Hack was one of my instructors who dowsed here locally ( Western Montana ) for the last 50 years.... she has since moved on.

People have located water for centuries by this means. Dowsing covers many topics but was popularized through the need for agricultural water.

Water is not located in all spots. Land pricing is often linked to water's availability and quality... did you explore anything about the water in the location you purchased?...Did you have a Realtor? Did they provide well logs in the area or historical info? or Contact the water testers or GWIC?

Did you research prior to digging your holes? Maybe you all think the water is at 40' feet and it is 400'

Paul, you have given so much to man,y many, people and if you still plan to dig or drill a well, send me a map and I will give you a $300. gift of dowse by email to see if there is any water at the level you wish, gpm, and potable quality, warm cold or hot and artisian. All of that is available by dowsing. Dowsing is a talent and when practiced it can be useful. I am a registered dowser with The American Society of Dowsers and I teach dowsing at Deep Bay Center in Lakeside Montana www.deepbay.org if any one is interested, contact Deep Bay Center and ask for the next Dowsing class, when there are 20 people I will teach a class.

I can say from personal experience that dowsing works. I not only found the water, I was able to predict the depth to hit the water exactly confirmed by the professional driller we used. In our case the spot we chose was only 25 feet to hit water, however I also mapped out a vein of water on the property that was 140 feet down. Paul if you plan on digging any more wells, I would really recommend finding someone skilled to find it because knowing depth is essential and would be faster and probably cheaper in the long run than digging a lot of holes where a rod wiggled.

Sometimes it is good to use two different dowsing methods, the two metal rod type can be misleading on occasion. If you get strong movement and no water, that can be from being off the lay line energies.
If using metal rods, they should cross strongly, when this happens it's time to go to the willow crotch to confirm the hit by the rods.

My personal preferred dowser is a willow crotch, I like to have 20-24 inch wands from the crotch. I also like a diameter of 1/2 to 3/4 inch at the crotch, larger just doesn't work as well for me.
I also whittle the crotch end to a point.
I learned this skill from an old guy in the Appalachians way back in 1966, he spent three hours just on how to pick the right crotch and he said that if I was to use two metal rods, they needed to be copper.
I have used other sets of metal rods, but the copper ones work far better for me than any other metal. With the willow, I can predict not only where but how deep and how much water will be found there.

I also offer up prayers and burn some cedar and white sage before I begin a session of dowsing. I only dowse for water but I know a couple of dowsers that locate oil and gas also.

Paul,

Please watch this scientific explanation of water dowsing.
No purple what so ever. Simple science - it should make sense.

Knowing this info may make a good dowser out of one who thought otherwise.
It's mentioned that a water dowser should know this info. if not, don't hire them.

Water Locating, Water Well, Water-Witching, Magnetic truth


Water Locating, Water Wells Part 1 of 4 "Where Should I Drill"


Website:
WaterLocating.Com

etc.