The 18 MINUTE FULL VERSION that you must log in with name and email address to see.

The short version:

Thanks for posting this short version!

Also a side note.

Am I the only one who thinks Geoff needs to improve his delivery system for his content?

It seems as though there is no sign in for his website. You effectively have to sign up everytime a video comes out.

Not only that but the email I got from after signing up was so poorly worded and sounded like shady phishing spam or something like that. I was in my iPhone so I knew there wasn't to worrie about and I clicked through and it was indeed legit.

Anyway, thanks for all that you do Paul.

I absolutely hate the lack of a simple sign-in option instead of constantly redoing the access requests. It feels like data mining, even though I know it isn't. I actually forgot and used the wrong email once and ended up receiving it under two different accounts thereafter. I would drop them, but don't want the statistics to show people walking away.

I unregistered from their email list because of exactly what you just said. I wonder how many people have gotten that far but were deterred by the shifty looking site.

Complete with large drawn arrows pointing where to give them you email and name. Geoffs face is everywhere on the site but it's also not very hard to get ahold of someone as high profile as Geoffs pic.

Anyway, I don't think they will do anything about it anytime soon. I replied with a recommendation for them to change because even I was wary of giving them my info.

On the other hand, Permies! This is how you do it.

I had absolutely no reservations about signing up for the dailyish emails. That's because it doesn't seem shady at all. In fact the lack of the aesthetic look and feel of most modern website is what gives permies it's charm but also it couldn't be nefarious looking like this right?

You aren't the only one. Everytime I've tried to share one of Geoff's videos, I spend more time trying to convince people that he will not spam them with emails than I do talking about permaculture with them. I think it is really sad because his videos are so awesome, but the only people that are going to watch them are people who already believe in Permaculture and not the people who need to be convinced.

This is why Paul's videos are better. He gives you the content with no requirements or obligations and just a brief blurb at the end telling you where you can find out more. It is such a better way of doing things.

Paul, is there any chance that you can convince Geoff to let you re-share his videos (maybe after they've been out for a month or two and he's already collected all the emails he can off of them?)

Josh Pasholk wrote:I unregistered from their email list because of exactly what you just said. I wonder how many people have gotten that far but were deterred by the shifty looking site.

Complete with large drawn arrows pointing where to give them you email and name. Geoffs face is everywhere on the site but it's also not very hard to get ahold of someone as high profile as Geoffs pic.

Anyway, I don't think they will do anything about it anytime soon. I replied with a recommendation for them to change because even I was wary of giving them my info.

On the other hand, Permies! This is how you do it.

I had absolutely no reservations about signing up for the dailyish emails. That's because it doesn't seem shady at all. In fact the lack of the aesthetic look and feel of most modern website is what gives permies it's charm but also it couldn't be nefarious looking like this right?

The biggest difference would between Geoff and Paul's would be the tech "savvyness" (yup its a word, sort of) that Paul has. Paul is a "f*@#%$g awesome software engineer" (his words, but I verily believe them) and Geoff is not. Geoff is awesome in other ways.

I get annoyed too. And my husband never gets around to seeing the videos because the process is so stupid.

Besides - his skills as a permaculture designer far outperform his skills as a narrator...

I download them to my computer so I can watch 'em whenever I want without re-signing in plus no buffering issues. It also makes it easier to convince my husband to watch...

What did you use to download them?

Here is the funny thing about requiring emails and the big arrows and stuff like that: it works. Companies will spend millions of dollars on "A/B testing" where the site will flip flop all day between two different pages and they will note which one resulted in more income. Big ones like amazon will go through 30 different page designs in a month.

Which site will work better for permies? Maybe it will be a bit different.

I am glad that there are lots of different things being tried in permaculture. And I'm glad that Geoff is trying lots of different things.

Hi everyone.

As CJ and I can attest to, the site is legitimate. It is the same software as Geoff used to deliver his online PDC which was one of the most incredible learning experiences of my life.

If you have specific requests, questions, etc., please post them here. I've let Geoff know about the concerns and he or one of his staff may read and appreciate some of the comments here. I know he always strives to try to reach people where they're at and improve on the process all the time.

If you're wondering - no, I don't work for Geoff or PRI - I'm a student of his and I really admire his work and the fact that he's making a huge effort to help spread the word about permaculture in general and these excellent examples in particular. As a drylander, I was hooked when he released his original "Greening the Desert" video, and I've been impressed ever since. There are lots of good people out there doing great work. It's really wonderful to see some of these efforts showcased in this way.

Josh Pasholk wrote:What did you use to download them?

I use Download Helper which is an add on for Firefox. I was a little reluctant to install that extension because that page seemed a little sketchy but it seems legit and I've used it without problems for well over a year.

Note that DownloadHelper does not break any real protection implemented on the sites. It gives easier access to available content that will be downloaded by your browser anyway. With some exceptions, downloaded videos must be kept on your disk for personal use and are not to be shown on other websites.

Like Jen said, Geoff's site is legit. My cousin thought about taking the PDC this summer but was turned off by the "hard sell." He'll either take the next one (which I think he should) or I'll do his design for him!

BTW, I've been to Ben's place and it is awesome. My only question with the video is I can't understand why you would place your cold storage right next to your greenhouse??? Maybe it keeps items from freezing in the winter? But then you couldn't use it for cold storage for half the year???

To login to his site I just type my e-mail address and hit enter. Those boxes are used for registration but using them to login works.

Cheers

I've been waiting for this one since Geoff started putting out videos. I like seeing temperate zone permaculture, as that is where I'm at, along with many others.

I liked the cold-climate rice paddy. Sounds like I will be adding rice to the seed catalogue.

I am not as set against greenhouses as Paul is, but my ideal four-season hothouse design is larger, features a pond, replaces the small woodstove with a RMH, and is buried into the hillside.

I would also love to see if Geoff can find enough material for a part two, including such things as four-season grazing in a cold climate, special considerations for animal welfare, or perhaps the use of specially adapted breeds, and considerations for adding diversity starting with an acidic boreal forest environment. As many can attest, while there is life in boreal forests, there is much less diversity and many fewer numbers than, say, even transitional zones where you find diverse species of deciduous tree living in warmer microclimates right alongside boreal species. Compare that to warmer, more varied situations and the boreal starts to look deserted.

I just hope he keeps them coming.

-CK

Hey Chris - did you post something like the above comment on Geoff's site under the video? I know he is actively interested in seeing what interests people have. Your comment above is really informative and I'm sure he'd appreciate reading it!

Cj Verde wrote:BTW, I've been to Ben's place and it is awesome. My only question with the video is I can't understand why you would place your cold storage right next to your greenhouse??? Maybe it keeps items from freezing in the winter? But then you couldn't use it for cold storage for half the year???

I don't know Ben's real answer, but I can think of a couple logical reasons:

1. Building on a south facing slope with lots of bedrock, you are limited in where you put what.
2. The greenhouse was not part of the original plan, but an evolution.

Lawton's site is pretty boilerplate these days, mildly irritating but effective--especially on the lower points of the Wheaton scale. Face it, Geoff isn't marketing to US. We are already in the choir, so to speak. He is trying to get more people in the door.

Paul Pilon wrote:To login to his site I just type my e-mail address and hit enter. Those boxes are used for registration but using them to login works.

Cheers

Good to know. I think they could do a better job for returning visitors so as not to confuse people.

Thanks!

R Scott wrote:
Lawton's site is pretty boilerplate these days, mildly irritating but effective--especially on the lower points of the Wheaton scale. Face it, Geoff isn't marketing to US. We are already in the choir, so to speak. He is trying to get more people in the door.

But that is my problem... People who are not already Permies, who don't know who Geoff is and trust him not to spam them, are less likely to be willing to sign up. At least that has been my experience. I try to get my family to watch the videos and they all say that they are unwilling to hand over their emails. I don't know if my friends and family are the norm or the exception, but based on my anecdotal evidence, I don't see how his strategy is effective in getting new people in the door.

I think in the future, I will just download his videos and host them privately for people I want to show them to. It sucks because I would love to make it easy for them to see the other stuff in Geoff's empire, but he seems to want to keep the barrier to entry to high to make it appealing to the people I know.

I agree, but market research shows otherwise. I guess we are all goofballs..

For the people who aren't comfortable using their real email there is a disposable email service you can use for occasions like this: 10 minute mail.

or you can get a second gmail or yahoo account. I have one just for things like this.

Just watched it with the kids, the long version. Ben's farm looks great, for sure. Thing is, I walk away from the video wondering when he's going to get technical and get down to details. Geoff's presentation is inspiring, definitely. With background music like that I can feel the eagles soaring. But I can't say that I really learned much of anything specific that I could work to implement on my farm.

Am I missing something? Is there somewhere else that Geoff gets into the nuts and bolts of it all, rather than just the dramatic overview? I have not signed up for his PDC, I would be interested, but only if it really goes about five levels deeper than this 18 minute inspirational video.

My curiousity is insatiable, and I want to learn more every day. This video was interesting but not really informative, to me. Just my thoughts there. ymmv.

Adam Klaus wrote:Just watched it with the kids, the long version. Ben's farm looks great, for sure. Thing is, I walk away from the video wondering when he's going to get technical and get down to details. Geoff's presentation is inspiring, definitely. With background music like that I can feel the eagles soaring. But I can't say that I really learned much of anything specific that I could work to implement on my farm.

Am I missing something? Is there somewhere else that Geoff gets into the nuts and bolts of it all, rather than just the dramatic overview? I have not signed up for his PDC, I would be interested, but only if it really goes about five levels deeper than this 18 minute inspirational video.

My curiousity is insatiable, and I want to learn more every day. This video was interesting but not really informative, to me. Just my thoughts there. ymmv.

That's how I've felt with the last three videos - nothing really have I learned from them, just a sales pitch (stagin Geoff Lawton in the role as the messiah - what with all the angelic music an all).

I think these videos are supposed to be demonstrative, not, strictly speaking, educational. That's what the PDC is for, and the reason why he's doing the videos is to popularise permaculture by showcasing what is possible, and explaining only the general ideas so that those not steeped in it already don't get bogged down and lost before they ever see the point, all with a view to getting those who really crave the nuts and bolts to go and take an online PDC with him.

-CK

Definitely these are supposed to be demonstrative. Think of how many, many hours of observation, design and implementation Ben went through to create that lovely farm. The nuts and bolts would take hours to explain even to people like those here who have worked their own projects and understand basic permaculture principles of design. If one doesn't have a PDC behind them - that would be the next logical step - the "how".

@Dawn, I think you may have misinterpreted the goal of these videos as they are an effort by Geoff to showcase what is possible with good permaculture design and an attempt to make permaculture more accessible to the mainstream - and yes, to ultimately enroll interested people in his online PDC. Geoff definitely walks the walk and has a great breadth and depth of information to share. Go read some of his posts on permacultureglobal.com if you are put off by the "sales pitch" - you will find a LOT of information on projects and consultancies he's been involved with across the globe where he has nothing at stake but adding more information and experience to the permaculture movement. Many of those posts go into great detail on methodology.

On a personal note, before taking Geoff's online PDC, I knew he was experienced. However, during the PDC, he revealed just how well versed he was in climates and settings all over the world. And yes, there were very concrete examples of his work and the work of others with far greater detail than one can get to in 18 mins of video. Plus, not only did the class include the traditional 72 hours of coursework but there were over 50 hours of Q and A videos presented answering student questions. AMAZING. Where else would someone almost double the length of the course to answer people's questions?

So I encourage you to look beyond the dramatic music and look again at the intention of the video - to share what is possible with permaculture design by showcasing Ben's beautiful example. How to create a similar example for yourself can take many paths - PDC, Wwoofing, interning, personal research and experimentation, getting information from forums like this, or a combination of all of the above as permaculture is an intriguing and diverse field of study that stimulates inquisitive people to ask new questions and find new answers.

All the best on your own project!
Jen

Cj Verde wrote:BTW, I've been to Ben's place and it is awesome. My only question with the video is I can't understand why you would place your cold storage right next to your greenhouse??? Maybe it keeps items from freezing in the winter? But then you couldn't use it for cold storage for half the year???

I had the same thought, CJ. I have not been over to Ben's place, but my wife took a Permaculture class and tour there about 4 years ago, and we had Ben over to our place assist us with planning our PCD about 6 years ago. - Looks like his hugel-swales and water works have matured very nicely since then.

I think Jennifer has it right -- looks like the greenhouse was added on after the root cellar was established. Was it there when you visited? I'd want a LOT of insulation between the cold storage and the hot-house -- especially with those corrugated metal walls, which can get mighty hot. There are also a number of moisture issues to deal with when bringing hot, very humid air into our living spaces.

I also feel that Geoff could coarse-tune his delivery and fine-tune his content. There is a LOT of self-promotion, which really turns me off. He is spontaneous and passionate, but he also rambles and repeats himself quite a bit. When I learned that his on-line course would cost over $1000, there was not even a tiny chance that I would -- or could -- consider it; that's just WAAAY too much money for a course that can be taught at little expense, and which is the sort of essential information that should be shared widely -- and quickly. I have no problem with the guy earning a living at this, but the Earth's inhabitants need this information if we are to save ourselves and survive the coming century. The clock is ticking and time's running out. Get a few hundred people to pay $250 each and get on with it -- rinse & repeat multiple times at very low cost, so once the on-line content is established, small bits can be updated, and the model be rolled out to thousands and even millions of people at a lower cost each time. For those using the class interactions to work on their own designs, perhaps a higher cost would be needed to guarantee adequate feedback and round-table discussion, so I'd suggest a 2-tiered pricing structure for learners vs. doers.

Anyhow, its good to see Ben and Geoff working together, and hopefully a lot more people can be reached that way. They both have such excellent information and experience to share; hopefully in a more affordable way.

Give it away and people will throw it away. It could be the cure for cancer or eternal life, most people won't perceive it as valuable if it didn't cost anything to get it.

As with Chris and others I find it very exciting and interesting to see Geoff looking specifically at a northern, 4 season climate and its really great to see some of Ben's place (I only just learned of him and what he's up to).

Though I do understand where Geoff is coming from with respect to the purpose of the videos...introductory at best; trailers designed to entice/ create curiosity in an uninitiated audience and ideally gain PDC students... I DO NOT think the production style/ values are helping the cause. My girlfriend cannot stand his pace and delivery...frankly neither can I but I suffer through it for the info with headphones on so as not to cause chaos. The website stuff is a bit Bobo BUT it works once you learn you can trust it...agreed though that the layout does not inspire confidence or clarity. The videos themselves I think with a little direction, COULD be far more successful. Maybe if produced with an aesthetic somewhere between the strict INFO DELIVERY of say a classic Paul Wheaton shakey cam video, and the artful yet lofi production of the Farmstead Meatsmith videos in mind it could actually be a desirable AND informative video to watch able to bait young and old alike into learning about this permaculture thing.

I have my own issues with the info delivery in the FS MS vids (particularly the white text is too hard to read) but they draw me in, and everyone I've shown them to was immediately compelled to watch more and in the end watched every FS MS video available then cursed them for not making more! Geoff's videos, though they are interesting for me, definitely don't seem to do a very good job of drawing in the uninitiated in my experience. Lose the over the top triumphant score, lose the ridiculous 'everything is amazing' tone of voice and stop lingering on the delivery of every single word! He's worse than Stuart MacLean!!! (Canadian Content Joke)

Don't get me wrong, Geoff clearly knows permaculture and I appreciate what he's trying to do here..but these videos need a more solid outside/directorial eye if they're going to capture the imagination of the uninitiated. As it is they come across as some guy (if I've never heard of Geoff Lawton) grandstanding and if you aren't looking close enough at the content it seems like a snake oil pitch or joke/segment on the Colbert report. Needs tuning IMHO.

Having said that I do really want to take a PDC with the man; any parts of videos I've seen where he's in front of a whiteboard explaining something are great. I just don't know if these vids as they are will convince anyone who hasn't heard of Geoff or Permaculture to buy in and do the same..or even get a complete view.

Brad Vietje wrote: When I learned that his on-line course would cost over $1000, there was not even a tiny chance that I would -- or could -- consider it; that's just WAAAY too much money for a course that can be taught at little expense, and which is the sort of essential information that should be shared widely -- and quickly. I have no problem with the guy earning a living at this, but the Earth's inhabitants need this information if we are to save ourselves and survive the coming century. The clock is ticking and time's running out. Get a few hundred people to pay $250 each and get on with it -- rinse & repeat multiple times at very low cost, so once the on-line content is established, small bits can be updated, and the model be rolled out to thousands and even millions of people at a lower cost each time. For those using the class interactions to work on their own designs, perhaps a higher cost would be needed to guarantee adequate feedback and round-table discussion, so I'd suggest a 2-tiered pricing structure for learners vs. doers.

Hi Brad and others who want a lower or no-cost PDC. If you look around the web, you will find tons of free stuff including forums like this one that spread permaculture goodness.

There are even people claiming to offer free PDCs - for example on this thread discussing Geoff's online PDC - scroll down until you get to the comment by Christine Baker - she says she teaches for free. Clicking on her name will take you to her website. I don't see mention of her teaching there but I didn't spend a lot of time looking. Perhaps you could contact her? Another resource that is a free-ish PDC is the one by the Regenerative Leadership Institute. I, personally would beware this option due to the fact that several well-know permaculturists have spoken out against the leader of this org. There is also this thread here on permies about this class. It seems contrary to claims that there are "no strings attached" that you have to pay if you actually want to be certified.

There really are many costs associated with teaching of all kinds - even online courses - maybe especially online courses. You have to have videos made, create or buy an interface and hosting, have staff to help monitor questions, answer billing questions, tech questions, etc. In Geoff's class - you also got a full set of dvds of the whole class mailed to you as well as his 5 films he's put out to date plus Food forest 2. And he added as an extra bonus a new course on earthworks. There was no book required for the course but he did work a deal with Tagari Publishing to make the Manual available to students at a reduced price. Plus there were no travel fees, no meal fees, no one missed work to attend, etc. That course was a STEAL for the price.

At least some of monies generated went to such things as upgrading the permacultureglobal site (a free resource), scholarships for students in developing countries and to further the spread of permaculture in other ways. The revolution does need to be funded to have any lasting effects and to be taken seriously!

Jennifer Wadsworth wrote:
There really are many costs associated with teaching of all kinds - even online courses - maybe especially online courses. You have to have videos made, create or buy an interface and hosting, have staff to help monitor questions, answer billing questions, tech questions, etc. In Geoff's class - you also got a full set of dvds of the whole class mailed to you as well as his 5 films he's put out to date plus Food forest 2. And he added as an extra bonus a new course on earthworks. There was no book required for the course but he did work a deal with Tagari Publishing to make the Manual available to students at a reduced price. Plus there were no travel fees, no meal fees, no one missed work to attend, etc. That course was a STEAL for the price.

It really was worth the price due to the DVDs and the q&a sessions. I did have to ask many questions (which were all answered) because some of the info is a little vague. Example: He gives a recipe for a mineral mix to give to your livestock and it calls for dolomite. Well, there are all sorts of dolomite so I needed some clarification! I did ask the question in the forums and he or staff could've answered that way but he answered via the video q&a.

At some point Geoff did explain that the purpose of the PDC was to get you thinking in a certain way and not really like a recipe book.

Somethings were very specific - like how to make compost in 18 days.

It wasn't till the very end, in the Earthworks course (added at the last minute as a bonus) that the whole "swales and uncompacted mounds" was made clear when he put his arm into a mound of soil soooo uncompacted it gave no resistance for several inches. That really had to be seen to get it.

Wait... here it is:

@CJ - there was so much good stuff in that class - I'm going through a second viewing of all of it - I have to say the information was so dense I missed 75% or more on the first pass. And it was still the most amazing class I've ever taken.

I get that classes are not for everyone for various reasons, so here is.....

ANOTHER GREAT FREE ACTIVITY!!!

Join us in reading Bill Mollison's seminal work, "Permaculture - A Designer's Manual" starting Jan 1st here on this site. The forum for this is HERE. By reading through the design manual, you will get all the information (and then some) provided in a PDC. Don't have the book? Buy a used one or borrow one from a friend or library. Even if you buy one new, it's way less expensive than a class. And you get to participate in lively discussions.

If you respond to this thread you will receive updates on when we start each chapter.

Wow! Thanks for posting that Jen!

I have to say that there were things that Geoff mentioned in the PDC that are in the PDM which I had sort of glossed over when reading but were super interesting when told in narrative form.

Best example? Page 96, Figure 4.26.
"An experienced man lowers his testicular sac into the sea to accurately gauge water mass temperature."

Honestly, I may have glanced at the drawing and the text but it did not make the same impression at all as when Geoff explained that and the reasons for it!

OMG - I'd forgotten all about that!

One instance that stuck in my mind was all about how to get adequate oxygenation into ponds and there was the discussion of small waterfalls and flow forms. Several students had additional questions on flow forms (they are pretty cool). In one of Geoff's Q and A videos, he revealed (somewhat sheepishly) that the human buttocks makes a great mold for a flow form.

Ever since that comment I've been visualizing all my friend's rear ends and which one's have the best booty for an imprint. Would I use multiple buttocks in decending order from small to large? Do the butt cheeks have to be uber defined or will a broad, flattish buttocks be equally effective? THESE are the questions....! I guess I'll just have to create a buttock flow form and see for myself.

I think a really experienced man would either first check to see that nothing carnivorous is living in that water, or would get an appropriately equipped WWOOFer to volunteer.

Seriously, the inside of the wrist or arm is sufficient to check milk temperature for an infant, I think the scrotum temperature check might be a little excessive.

-CK

Jennifer Wadsworth wrote:. Several students had additional questions on flow forms (they are pretty cool). In one of Geoff's Q and A videos, he revealed (somewhat sheepishly) that the human buttocks makes a great mold for a flow form.

Ever since that comment I've been visualizing all my friend's rear ends and which one's have the best booty for an imprint. Would I use multiple buttocks in decending order from small to large? Do the butt cheeks have to be uber defined or will a broad, flattish buttocks be equally effective?

This photo of the flowform in Tamera looks completely different to me having read that...

Rotflol! Asses: not just for sitting on any more.

Burra - EXACTLY!!

And....looks like it's already been done! See: http://forums.permaculturenews.org/showthread.php?17379-Aquaponic-amp-Flowforms-Attn-Helenlee

Thank you Jennifer - I must admit that I have been wrong I have not been able to find much quality stuff about permaculture online (perhaps it drowns in all the bad stuff?). I've run into many "buy my book" or "take my course" pages and saw Geoff Lawton in that same light. I was wrong.

Hey Dawn - thanks for your generous response! I hope you'll be joining us in the forum to discuss the Design Manual. Warning - it could degrade into silliness at some point (esp. if I'm involved). Really, I'm obsessed with buttock flow forms....

I digress.

Here's to everyone finding the learning opportunities that suit their tastes and budgets complete with appropriate music.....