12V Portable LiFePO4 unheated battery recommendations?

Hello all,

I am looking to replace some 12v deep cycle batteries that I haul back and forth mostly for pumping water. I bring them home and recharge them after each use.

I was looking at the 100AH unheated 12v LiFePO4 drop in replacements like this one...
https://battlebornbatteries.com/product/12v-lifepo4-deep-cycle-battery/

and this one...
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0F2HPR6JG?th=1

I know Battle Born are supposed to be good. I can buy 5 of the other one with similar specs for the price of one Battle Born. I haven't looked around too much yet. There seem to be lots of other brands on Amazon with similar specs and price.

To throw in one more wrench, I wouldn't mind having a replaceable BMS and making a battery to avoid just the brain from turning the rest into a brick.

Does anyone out there have any recommendations for a durable off the shelf battery that they have used that would stand up to being moved around alot or where to look to build a very simple one.

Thank you!

Have you considered buying components and putting a battery together yourself and saving some money? Then you save money and know your parts and how to fix / replace them.

larry kidd wrote:Have you considered buying components and putting a battery together yourself and saving some money? Then you save money and know your parts and how to fix / replace them.

I sure have. So far I've not found a way to save money doing that compared to the off the shelf Amazon prices at least. I'm open to suggestions on where to source cells and parts though. I've watch a youtube video or two. I very much like the idea of being able to replace a failed BMS on otherwise good cells.

EVE cells from the 18650 battery store or whoever has the current best price. Quality cells versus unknown cells from whoever.

Never forget for just a few dollars you can add your own heat and thermostat in to your battery build. Since my battery bank is fixed in place I simply used heat tape for water pipes that come with a built in thermostat on at 35f off at 50f.

larry kidd wrote:EVE cells from the 18650 battery store or whoever has the current best price. Quality cells versus unknown cells from whoever.

Thanks for the recommendation. I wouldn't have known that EVE cells were any good.

It seems like a big project for what I'm looking for and this seems like it might be all I need and hard to beat in price. With a 5 year warranty it might be worth taking a risk. Assuming I'll be able to get ahold of the company if anything were to go wrong. It's cheaper than a deep cell AGM or lead acid.

Super Empower 12V 100AH LiFePO4

Les Frijo wrote:

larry kidd wrote:EVE cells from the 18650 battery store or whoever has the current best price. Quality cells versus unknown cells from whoever.

Thanks for the recommendation. I wouldn't have known that EVE cells were any good.

It seems like a big project for what I'm looking for and this seems like it might be all I need and hard to beat in price. With a 5 year warranty it might be worth taking a risk. Assuming I'll be able to get ahold of the company if anything were to go wrong. It's cheaper than a deep cell AGM or lead acid.

Super Empower 12V 100AH LiFePO4

Hope you have better luck than I have IF warranties are needed! I didn't think much about warranties until I called a couple of them in and found out they weren't worth the paper they were printed on!!! Since then I'd rather handle things myself.

This is kind of build it yourself.
Has everything you need, just put it together.

https://yixiangpower.com/collections/12v-battery-box

A place to get familiar with what's currently being used.
https://diysolarforum.com/

I wouldn't get battleborn.

Even though the OP here posted about unheated LiFePO4 batteries, I'm hoping a related question on heating might be answered here.  Is it possible when using a heated LiFePO4 battery to program the battery management system (BMS) to maintain the battery temperature above some minimum even when it is not going through a charging cycle?  My impression is that when the charging system is called upon to initiate a charge when batteries are cold, the BMS will prevent initial charging.....first initiating a heating period to bring the batteries up to an acceptable temperature for charging....and then beginning the charging run.  My question pertains to a 48V parallel-connected battery array that would be semi-permanently plugged into grid-powered charging unit that would sense when the batteries were getting below a certain threshold before initiating a charge.  But I'm not clear on whether such a battery array, in an unheated building, could be maintained above a certain temperature simply by virtue of being charger-connected....and in some way using that fact to keep the internal battery heating circuit active to maintain the batteries near the minimum charging temperature.  The point being, having that battery array never dip down for any length of time to a temperature (~ -30F to -50F) potentially damaging to the battery.  Would it be better just to heat the whole enclosure/shed that the batteries were being kept in? Thanks!

Unheated lipo4 batteries might not be doable.
I don't think they can be charged when it's below 32F.
It's dangerous.
I think discharging them at cold temperatures might be stopped by the BMS. battery management.
I know my phone won't work when it's cold enough.

It would be nice to have a circuit that when the charger comes on it heats the batteries to a safe level then begins charging.
Not sure if this is available.

We have 3x 10 kWh EG4 self heated batteries.
They work but it is, so far, tough to figure out the power consumption of the self heating.
I think/fear it just keeps the batteries above a setpoint whether charging is imminent or not, which was an issue during a prolonged cold/dark stretch last year.

'BattPack' sells all in one portable units for low temperature.

Look at Will Prowse's page on youtube for teardowns of cheap LiFePo4 batteries.

Dumfume is a VERY cheap (<10 cents a wh on Amazon) LiFePo4 brand with really decent capacity and build quality. No heaters, but with low temp protection.

Douglas Campbell wrote:We have 3x 10 kWh EG4 self heated batteries.
They work but it is, so far, tough to figure out the power consumption of the self heating.
I think/fear it just keeps the batteries above a setpoint whether charging is imminent or not, which was an issue during a prolonged cold/dark stretch last year.

'BattPack' sells all in one portable units for low temperature.

Thanks for responses to my query.  

The concept I'm thinking of is derived from the fact that (a) I'm a cheapskate, (b) we have a transfer switch at the grid-provided power pole in the yard, (c) wife is hesitant to have a large stack of batteries in the basement of the house when said battery chemistry has even a minor reputation for catching fire, (d) we are both in our senior years and may have limitations on system maintenance, and (e) the garage best suited for batteries is unheated.  Although lately mid-winter temperature has not gone lower than -30F, it is prudent in the region to plan for nights near -40F as this has occurred in the past 30 years of our living here.  I'm looking into placing a hybrid inverter (48VDC) near the power pole and be enclosed within a shed that would house both inverter and batteries.  Initially, the system would run power from the grid into the batteries for back-up and keep them topped-up for times when being on battery power makes more sense (outages, other reasons...).  Solar panels will be added to the system over time, providing prioritized charging power for the batteries.  So if the self-heating circuit is not too demanding, I would be fine....for now....with grid power providing that juice for heating, *provided* that they will be maintained above a threshold temperature at all times so that the battery is not damaged.  Your statement, Douglas C., that "I think/fear it just keeps the batteries above a setpoint whether charging is imminent or not..." is exactly what I was wondering.  In my scenario, keeping the batteries heated and 'safe' is the priority over the fact that they will indirectly be using grid power and hence adding to the electrical bill.  With a properly insulated shed or battery center, however, this draw from grid power may be pretty minimal....?   With the shed positioned near the power pole, I was envisioning simply using the same cable that I now use between gas/diesel generators to feed into the transfer switch  So I will need to determine if the outlet (AC) leads from the hybrid inverter can be wired into a proper receptacle for that cable.  An addition issue, perhaps trivial, is that the generator and cable combination currently provide both 120V and 220V power to that transfer switch....this combo allows low level 120VAC to the house plus enough power for the 220VAC well-pump.  Thanks again!.....additional comments/criticisms welcomed.

A completely different option is an EV with vehicle to load option.

John: If connected to the grid the EG4 battery self heat would be a minimal draw.

As a side note, Battleborn batteries have been popping up with some really shoddy manufacturing that they're passing off as a "safety feature." Would not recommend them.

Douglas Campbell wrote:A completely different option is an EV with vehicle to load option.

John: If connected to the grid the EG4 battery self heat would be a minimal draw.

Thanks for additional comments....and yes, I've enjoyed and gotten good information from many of Will Prowse's videos on LiFePO4 batteries.

Douglas C., the EG4 batteries look interesting and I'd not really delved into the 'Powerwall'-style of batteries at this point.  But with the configuration in mind, I think that could work well for our needs and I will keep researching that angle.  Also, I had not really considered vehicle-to-load option as we don't have an automobile EV per se......but we do have an electric Polaris Ranger for farm chores (48VDC X ~300 Ah).  Just now it's still running on the stock configuration of 8 X 12V lead acid batteries, but the hope with the declining price in LiFePO4 or other advanced battery tech is to replace these old batteries soon.  I had rigged up those batteries to be charged by solar and so already have that battery pack feeding into a plug receptable into which I plug a solar PV/MPPT controller combo for that purpose.  Seems like this circuit could be used to at least feed 48VDC into a hybrid inverter as well for low-level house power.

As always, lot's of good and helpful info running through these threads....much thanks!

Since the original post has a specific target goal of being able to run a specific system, it's best to start with the electrical demands of that system, to narrow down which route to go.

I often/usually see "marketing" claims that are misleading or confusing to the average person, because they accentuate the positive, and/or overstate it, while not mentioning the negatives at all.  When you see "12Vdc/100 Ah" as the battery specs, keep in mind that all are NOT the same, primarily because some (usually the cheaper ones) will have a pathetically low current capacity, even if their 100 Ah claim was true - a battery that can easily provide 5 amps for 20 hrs is truly a "100 Ah battery", but that doesn't mean the same battery could provide 20 Amps for 5 hrs, and may not even be able to provide 20 Amps at all!

Have to start with what does the pump need, to work properly, and work backward from there for best results.  What is the peak current draw from the water pump, and what are the peak current capacities of the choices in batteries?

LiFePO4 batteries are not known for having super high peak current, so while they have excellent long lives, their peak discharge rates are often only 2C (2x the capacity of the battery), with the recommended discharge being only 1C or 0.5C, for optimal lifespan.  LiFePO4 battery chemistry can often safely be discharged down to -30C with no damage, but they have to be warmed back up to 0C or above to recharge.  

If your pump system can run fine on less than 314 amps, then building your own 12 V battery system out of 4 EVE MB31 cells may make a lot of sense, as those have an expected service life of 8000+ cycles.  I have these cells already and was considering building such a box for a few different uses - as a replacement for my car battery (turns out that my car may need more than 314 amps to crank, so that's on hold pending further research), and also as a battery supply for my BB entry attempt at https://permies.com/wiki/140481/pep-electricity/Charge-Carry-lithium-battery-power until I realized that it can't meet the requirements of meeting or exceeding the 1100 Kwh capacity - a stack of 4 of those is only rated at 1006 Wh...

If I'm going to build something for that, it will either end up being large enough to have/need wheels, or need to switch to lithium-ion polymer technology.

About that...  LiIonPoly batteries have many advantages over LiFePO4 - specifically in weight, energy density, and and usually maximum discharge/charge current, but it's not all sunshine and roses, because their downsides have to be weighed too.  They typically will have service lives of only 400-500 cycles, and as expected with the much higher energy density, they are more prone to bad things happening when something goes wrong (and in ways that you can't put out with a fire extinguisher).  That being said, they're ideal for small portable devices and/or mobile applications.  Their cold-weather performance isn't great either, as they'll also need to be warmed up to 10C to charge them, and IIRC, they don't usually work very well as far below freezing either.

Here's an example of a LiIon datasheet describing the specs of one particular cell (other batteries with the same chemistry will be similar):  https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0697/3395/files/Green_GA6W_datasheet.pdf?v=1716315904

Bottom line, find out what your pump needs, and then it's much easier to sort out from what is best to make it happy and make your wallet happy in the long run.

(Edit:  Each EVE MB31 is 1006 Kwh, so a stack of 4 of them would be over 4K, and I could use such for the BB submission)

The new sodium ion batteries can handle very cold weather, -40C and still have plenty of power.
They are becoming affordable,.. compared to lead acid car starting batteries.
And sodium beats lead, or even lithium as far as toxic gick.

They are about the same price as LA starting batteries now:
https://www.aliexpress.us/item/3256808924809169.html?spm=a2g0o.order_list.order_list_main.4.54d31802bpcON7&gatewayAdapt=glo2usa
4 of those will get you 12 volts.
That's kind of a kit so you'd have to build the box.
And use a BMS (battery management system) if you don't use it in a car.

Because they are new and expanding.
You could easily watch the price drop substantially after you buy them.

Are the majority of BMS's currently available LiFePO4-specific or can they be programmed to monitor and maintain sodium ion cells and battery pack?  Or are BMS's for sodium ion cells as readily available as the cells are currently?  Thanks......

Most commonly available BMS will support Lead, LiIon(poly), or LiFePO4.  Some of the newer ones will support LTO too, but that's way too new and expensive for serious consideration (for most of us) yet.

I don't think sodium batteries are far enough in the mainstream to be in the market as much as the others, or at least I'm not seeing them or compatible parts for those systems when I'm browsing.

I've also been told if one has to buy directly from China (which I've done before), it's much safer to buy from alibabba.com, NOT aliexpress...  Less chance of getting ripped off?

12 Volt sodium batteries can be charged to a higher voltage.
I think they like 15.6 volts.
I'm not sure what most lead/acid battery chargers go to.
I have an old one that goes to 16 volts.

There was a guy on utube who charged/discharged a sodium motorcycle battery.
Charging it to 14.4 (or something close to that) didn't seem to change the power curve when he discharged, compared to a 15.6volt charge.
A couple fewer AH (amp hours).
The curve isn't as flat as lithium so using voltage as a reference for charge level will probably work well.

I don't think I've ever been ripped off on alliex.

craig howard wrote:
I don't think I've ever been ripped off on alliex.

I have. A vendor shipped me the wrong product and I asked for a refund. I provided mountains of photographic evidence. The vendor denied everything, so I escalated the problem to AliExpress. They initially sided with the vendor but after reviewing all of my documentation agreed that I was due a refund. The problem? I had to return the item. I thought long and hard about this, but being a trusting sort by nature, I went ahead.

That was my mistake. I shipped the unit back to the supplier, and it ended up stuck in customs in Wenzhou. AliExpress said this amounted to nondelivery and denied my refund. An appeal was also shot down. $500 later, all I have to show for the experience is a stack of receipts. I might be able to get my bank to do a chargeback, but I'm not holding my breath.

Never again.

Sorry, wrong thread...

craig howard wrote:I don't think I've ever been ripped off on alliex.

I have also, with proof that that they delivered to the wrong address to some place 3 states away, to a recipient I'd never heard of, but I got my credit card company involved, and after 4 months, they ruled in my favor and I got a full refund. The vendor started by insisting that I return the product that was mis-shipped...

Never again!

A few months later, that vendor was nowhere to be found on aliexpress.

Use alibabba.com, AND use a credit card that will have your back if things go south, the consumer protections we take for granted in the USA don't exist in most of the rest of the world!

The 4 batteries are shipped and on their way but I am getting messages that the shipper says I live in a remote village and need to send an extra $30.
Not true and that's the first time I've heard that.
We'll see how it works out.