Has anyone had luck raising goats without chemicals?

Hi,

I would love to hear from anyone who has been successful at raising goats without using chemical dewormer or other medications. Is this possible? What did you do to accomplish this?

Thanks!

Prevention and keeping the animal healthy enough to carry a subclinical wormload works well.  It's providing the best environment we can and trusting the animals know what they need (and learning how to listen when they ask for something)

See ths book, Natural Goat Care by Coleby as a good starting place.

Or just as good, but an easier read, https://permies.com/t/111481f6/Backyard-Dairy-Goats-ebook

I've been raising goats 100% naturally for 12 years now. It definitely is possible.

We've built up a herd over time that thrives on our land without chemicals.

Some things that have been helpful:
Understanding that goats are browsers and not grazers by nature - many of the worm problems that people think are common in goats are because they are forcing their goats to graze grass that is too low or has not been rested long enough. Goats have high mineral needs, and by providing mineral-rich feed, either from access to trees, or through a mineral lick, will help them become resilient to parasites and other health problems. Keeping their food well off the ground, either by keeping them as forest animals, in pasture at least 6” high, or fed hay in hay racks, will help them to avoid ingesting parasites.

Understanding that you don’t need a zero worm count to have a healthy goat. Some parasite load can be OK if the goat is healthy in other ways, so it’s always best to just observe your goats first for signs of health rather than relying on worm counts.

It’s far easier to prevent health issues in the first place with good management, than it is to deal with full-blown health problems. Backyard Dairy Goats goes into a lot of detail about signs of health to look for, preventative remedies, and simple natural remedies you can use to nip a problem in the bud.

The ideal situation is to start with goats from a breeder who has been raising them without chemicals - that way you are starting out with the best genetic potential for your needs rather than having to do many years of selective breeding like I have. Some of the best goats we’ve bred have come from “no-name” bucks of random origin rather than pedigree animals, because the best breeding animals have not necessarily been selected to thrive without chemicals - different breeders will take different approaches to that. So if you’re looking for your first goats, it’s best to ask a lot of questions of breeders about whether they use chemicals, how they deal with health issues, and how they manage their goats.

Tori Escobar wrote:Hi,

I would love to hear from anyone who has been successful at raising goats without using chemical dewormer or other medications. Is this possible? What did you do to accomplish this?

Thanks!

yeah it hard  but possible.  It’s a lot of management, good pasture rotation, low stocking, c lean ground and breeding for parasite resistance.

Kate Downham wrote:I've been raising goats 100% naturally for 12 years now. It definitely is possible.

We've built up a herd over time that thrives on our land without chemicals.

Some things that have been helpful:
Understanding that goats are browsers and not grazers by nature - many of the worm problems that people think are common in goats are because they are forcing their goats to graze grass that is too low or has not been rested long enough. Goats have high mineral needs, and by providing mineral-rich feed, either from access to trees, or through a mineral lick, will help them become resilient to parasites and other health problems. Keeping their food well off the ground, either by keeping them as forest animals, in pasture at least 6” high, or fed hay in hay racks, will help them to avoid ingesting parasites.

Understanding that you don’t need a zero worm count to have a healthy goat. Some parasite load can be OK if the goat is healthy in other ways, so it’s always best to just observe your goats first for signs of health rather than relying on worm counts.

It’s far easier to prevent health issues in the first place with good management, than it is to deal with full-blown health problems. Backyard Dairy Goats goes into a lot of detail about signs of health to look for, preventative remedies, and simple natural remedies you can use to nip a problem in the bud.

The ideal situation is to start with goats from a breeder who has been raising them without chemicals - that way you are starting out with the best genetic potential for your needs rather than having to do many years of selective breeding like I have. Some of the best goats we’ve bred have come from “no-name” bucks of random origin rather than pedigree animals, because the best breeding animals have not necessarily been selected to thrive without chemicals - different breeders will take different approaches to that. So if you’re looking for your first goats, it’s best to ask a lot of questions of breeders about whether they use chemicals, how they deal with health issues, and how they manage their goats.

Thank you for this input. It is very encouraging.
Here’s the deal with my setup.
I have had goats for just about 2 years. They are rotationally grazed through our land which includes lots of trees, bushes and browsing options. They are never in one place more than 2 days.
They go in a shed at night and when weather is very bad. I only have three right now. They have only received herbal dewormer and have access at night to a full mineral bar.
My one milk doe who kidded in December is so thin. She is a nubian but looks to be just loosing weight since kidding. I’ve been milking her but decided to stop because of her condition. She gets some supplemented oats and alfalfa pellets but it doesn’t seem to make a difference.
What would you do?
Is this a situation where she’s just not a good fit for the farm or do I use chemical dewormer to save her from continued weight loss?
Her doeling I hope will be more suited to our management.

Do you deworm for symptoms only or on a schedule. I'm a big fan of keeping wormers (hebal or other) for when the animals ask for it.  It makes the wormer more powerful and if the animal is used to a sub clinical worm load (worms with no symptoms), then worm sign becomes the canary to indicate there is a subtle but more serious issue in the flock/heard.

How are the gums and undereyes and other signs? Do you have a vet that can give a fecal teast for worms (or a microscope to save money and do it yourself).  Quite often we get fixated on one specific problem (usually becase a local farmer who don't know goats but has lots of loud opinions decided that was the problem and convinced us) that we become blind to other possibilities.

Goats look so thin when first milking.   The farm i helped out at when considering dairy goats was big into prevention and thought medicine a waste of money unless the goat truly needed it.  

I was amazed at how much grain she fed her goats while milking.  Almost a gallon (but not suddenly, grain is introduced gradually).  She used half goat tex which is a mix with added molasses and vitamin,  and half barley (oats in cooler weather).  She kept the goats healthy and milking for about 6 years between kidding.  She said working goats need nearly double the nutrients of non working goats...i haven't read anywhere to confirm it's that much, but her goats were very happy.

I didn't end up getting dairy goats in the end as my hands couldn't handle the arthritis pain, but I ended up helping from time to time at various goat farms and seeing different approaches.  Her goats seemed the healthiest of the ones I met and she was very good at listening to what each individual goat needed.  And if se couldn't tell from expierence, she would run tests like fecal sample and bloodwork, before treating.

Not easily, they are very sensitive and delicate. You'll lose animals to preventable deaths if that's a hard line you don't want to cross, especially if you're new to goats.

Modern methods of raising goats does make them seem fragile, which helps us give them more modern treatment, which makes them appear more fragile,  it's a difficult cycle to break,

And yet, for most of written history, goats were considered one of the hardiest livestock one could care for.  We can also see this from pre history and the archeological record.  From desert to forest, goats thrived under human stewardship for thousands of years.  In my university days, i specialized in history of agriculture in the middle ages (and adjacent regions) and never did I find reference to goats being delicate.  

Why then, i asked myself, are they suddenly considered fragile in the last 40-ish years?

Part of it is breading.  Some of the newer breeds have limited genetics and as many farmers are soft (like me), we keep an animal that isn't suitable for breeding.   However, instead of setting up a retirement heard/fock (this applies equally to sheep), many farmers keep breeding poor genetics and this amplifies problems.

Another big problem is to think if some medicine is good, more is better.  Thus the worming on schedule (every 6 months is common here), thus breeding a parasite population that is immune to worm meds.

We forget that most animals naturally have worms all the time (including humans), but we don't mind because the rest of our body is healthy, we can manage to control a few parasites.  My vet calls it a sub-clinical worm load and recomends it so the worms can grow weak and easy to kill if needed.  This means we can keep wormer for time when they show worm symptoms (under eyelid colour, gum colour, lethargy, depression....if someone here doesn't know the usual checks for wormsign, please ask.).  If we keep the treatment for when needed, it has a stronger effect and we save money.

Treating livestock with our time and attention.  Educating ourselves on how to do regular health checks.  Using observation tools to accurately diagnose before treatment (like a fecal worm count).  These human actions are what gives goats live long and healthy and productive lives.   Medicine is no substitute for accurate diagnosis.  Modern farming methods often cut lives short as it requires the goats adapt to human expectations instead of the human learning to observe and act only when needed.

r ransom wrote:Do you deworm for symptoms only or on a schedule. I'm a big fan of keeping wormers (hebal or other) for when the animals ask for it.  It makes the wormer more powerful and if the animal is used to a sub clinical worm load (worms with no symptoms), then worm sign becomes the canary to indicate there is a subtle but more serious issue in the flock/heard.

How are the gums and undereyes and other signs? Do you have a vet that can give a fecal teast for worms (or a microscope to save money and do it yourself).  Quite often we get fixated on one specific problem (usually becase a local farmer who don't know goats but has lots of loud opinions decided that was the problem and convinced us) that we become blind to other possibilities.

Goats look so thin when first milking.   The farm i helped out at when considering dairy goats was big into prevention and thought medicine a waste of money unless the goat truly needed it.  

I was amazed at how much grain she fed her goats while milking.  Almost a gallon (but not suddenly, grain is introduced gradually).  She used half goat tex which is a mix with added molasses and vitamin,  and half barley (oats in cooler weather).  She kept the goats healthy and milking for about 6 years between kidding.  She said working goats need nearly double the nutrients of non working goats...i haven't read anywhere to confirm it's that much, but her goats were very happy.

I didn't end up getting dairy goats in the end as my hands couldn't handle the arthritis pain, but I ended up helping from time to time at various goat farms and seeing different approaches.  Her goats seemed the healthiest of the ones I met and she was very good at listening to what each individual goat needed.  And if se couldn't tell from expierence, she would run tests like fecal sample and bloodwork, before treating.

I was giving the herbal dewormer on a schedule but haven’t in the last couple months since I ran out. I have ordered more and will administer asap.
Eyelids and gums seem pale. Energy and friskiness are normal. She is very selective with her food but I dont want to give her too much oats because it seems to cause clumpy poop. I’ve increased alfalfa pellets to see if that improves weight. And we just stopped milking which I hope will allow her to gain some weight back. The two kids that run with her are robust.  
It is encouraging to hear about people who are successful at raising goats more naturally. It’s really the only way that makes sense. It’s the getting to a place where your animals have adjusted to your land and management that makes you feel uncertain.
Thank you for the input! It’s so helpful!

I would love to hear from anyone who has been successful at raising goats without using chemical dewormer or other medications. Is this possible? What did you do to accomplish this?

This *really* isn't the kind of answer you're looking for, but since I don't have goats yet, I can't really chip in anything short of philosophy born of history.

Nature ... has successfully raised goats without industrially synthesized dewormers. If it weren't possible -- if goats were really as fragile as they are sometimes portrayed, they wouldn't exist at all.

Tori Escobar wrote: ... doesn’t seem to make a difference.
What would you do? .

Unless you see worms, I free your goat has something else going on so a trip to the vet might be in order.

If nothing else try feeding molasses with grains, oats, etc. and see if that helps.

Tori Escobar wrote:Hi,

I would love to hear from anyone who has been successful at raising goats without using chemical dewormer or other medications. Is this possible? What did you do to accomplish this?

Thanks!

I’ve been raising sheep - a very “goaty” breed of sheep, for more than 10 years. And I do it very well. My sheep are very healthy.
I’ve not used chemicals at all in terms of dewormers, antibiotics, etc, only because I’ve made it so I don’t need to.
I do vaccinate yearly for tetanus as its prevalent in my area.

However I don’t “guess” about anything in order to do this well. I have systems set up that mimic what sheep and goats have evolved to thrive on. And I   *test*, in order to obtain *actual data* to see how my animals are doing outside of the visual and palpable.

1/
I’ve set up a great pasture system where browsing and grazing are available each place they are moved to. The schedule is according to forage growth and health, and no over browsing or overgrazing occurs. The schedule also ensures that minimal parasite infection occurs in my sheep - ie, the schedule works against the parasite life cycle. (Look that up in wormboss.com.au). Haemonchus contortus “Barberpole” is the big one to learn about. The constant moving back and forth from barn and water/minerals to pasture also ensures exercise and fitness.

I’ve planted lots of extra browse that doubles as food for us and also wildlife. Plus sometimes these are nitrogen fixers or have other multi-stacking benefits. And if it’s evergreen that’s even better. Plus planting C4 grasses helps for the warm season when the cool season grasses are dying.
It means I have year round forage for the difficult seasons - in our case that’s the Summer and Fall.

2/ I test fecal samples regularly at key periods yearly on all my animals, to SEE and count what their parasite loads are, and what type…to be sure I’m continuing to do things correctly. And whether I need to modify or tighten up my rotations etc…
or maybe I bought a ewe who just did not turn out to have a great immune system and got infected w a lot of parasites despite a good grazing rotation schedule (no longer than 2-3 days in any one place and don’t return for 3 months to same area). In this case, I would cull this animal.

3/ related to above: I carefully select the animals I keep or sell as ONLY the best animals. The ones who grew the best on our conditions here (with good amounts of forage, hay, browse and pasture), had the lowest parasite counts, had great temperaments, and very importantly, had excellent maternal qualities - that is independent birthing, ability to nurse twins without supplements, good care and mothering skills, and good reliable fertility. I never keep animals who are not healthy or need a lot of help. We eat meat (acting as the predator in our system), so that is a natural use for animals that don’t tally up.

4/
I also test 1-2 liver samples at slaughter and do a mineral analysis to be sure the minerals they are getting are effectively giving my sheep what they need. (You can look this up and learn about it; minerals are a REALLY important factor not to guess on, but to know and understand). I make adjustments on the mineral mix they get based on these analyses. Generally this is most important in the first few years. Once you have the right mix and liver tests are great, you only have to check once in a while to be sure levels are still good.
I do wonder if climate change will change these parameters a bit by changing soil and forage…🤔

5/
I don’t feed grains or feeds because this is not what ruminants evolved to eat. But also, I don’t milk them anymore, so they don’t require extra nutrition. (If I did milk them I would probably figure out an alternative to lots of grain).
Importantly also, I make sure that I have *only* the *right number* of animals that my property and its forage can support. I never stress the system or my animals, with too many.
I do buy surplus (unsprayed) hay, not because we can’t make enough hay by cutting between grazing rotations, but because we simply don’t have time to cut our own.

6/ I chose the right animal breed for my climate, property conditions, topography, size of land, etc.
I did not choose Highland Cattle for flat lowland Mediterranean climate with mild winters and no snow. I chose a primitive, grassfed-type sheep breed that was used to rainy weather, browse and pasture, who was also is a smaller size for my few acre place. And it’s a breed I can milk if I want, as they twin reliably (tho it’s not a dairy breed).

I wanted goats originally, but we have soggy winters, flat land with no rocks, and more pasture than browse (although I have planted a lot of that as my sheep are a browse-y breed). And I liked our place and didn’t want to move.
So I decided against goats, and in favor of a more appropriate animal and breed for these conditions.  
This makes happier, more comfortable animals, less work for me, and a better functioning farm.

7/
I make sure that all the animals i bring onto my farm are healthy, so they don’t bring disease to the rest of my flock and so that I’m not starting with sick animals. Sick animals are a lot of unnecessary work and unhappiness. (Permaculture doesn’t condone that 😉)
That means testing *each* animal before purchase and also researching the farm I am buying animals from, to be sure they test their animals too and maintain good biosecurity.

FYI: 70% of ruminant flocks and herds (goats, sheep, and cows) in USA have 1 *or more* of these three chronic HIV-like diseases: OPP/CAE, Caseous Lymphadenitis, and Johnes disease.
Look these up and learn about them.
They are incurable and *incredibly prevalent* in USA, especially in goats.

You said you have some issues with thin goats. I would check them for these diseases - especially Johnes. Weight loss in middle aged animals is the first sign for all of these diseases though.

Cleaning up one’s farm if these diseases are present, can be difficult as some of these organisms last up to 18 months in the soils. But it is very important to do this well, and cull all positive animals immediately.

This is why BIOSECURITY is also important. If you are bringing in shearers and folks from other farms, make sure they have non-farm boots on, clean clipper blades and equipment, etc etc. You can read and learn about this. Most of these kinds of chronic diseases can be spread on feces stick to boots and body fluids on hands and clothing, etc…


Ok, that is a short (yes!) glimpse of the way I keep animals without chemicals. And my animals are REALLY healthy and happy. As is my silvopasture, meadows and orchard - all of which benefit from the animals and good browse/grassfed management. (And good permaculture design).

Happy to answer questions

r ransom wrote:Modern methods of raising goats does make them seem fragile, which helps us give them more modern treatment, which makes them appear more fragile,  it's a difficult cycle to break,

And yet, for most of written history, goats were considered one of the hardiest livestock one could care for.  We can also see this from pre history and the archeological record.  From desert to forest, goats thrived under human stewardship for thousands of years.  In my university days, i specialized in history of agriculture in the middle ages (and adjacent regions) and never did I find reference to goats being delicate.  

Why then, i asked myself, are they suddenly considered fragile in the last 40-ish years?

Part of it is breading.  Some of the newer breeds have limited genetics and as many farmers are soft (like me), we keep an animal that isn't suitable for breeding.   However, instead of setting up a retirement heard/fock (this applies equally to sheep), many farmers keep breeding poor genetics and this amplifies problems.

YES! Well said!

The answer is multifactorial.
Modern breeding for most all domestic animals SUCKS (to use a non-technical word!).

1/ We humans tend to breed for looks and how we think they should look like, instead of how well they function!
(See German Shepherds who can barely walk anfter the ange of 6, or the English Bulldog - who can no longer birth on their own. Compare that to a coyote).

2/ Farm animal breeding animals are now selected from animals in grain-fed, housed, super-pampered, highly medicated conditions, whether they are sick or not. (Ruminants, esp goats, traditionally were not fed grain and they were valued for health and ability to survive on whatever was out there to browse and graze). All animals are bred. There is no culling of unhealthy, ill-functioning animals.

3/
Ruminants are no longer selected for *health and easy care qualities*. They are selected for the largest massive form, or the biggest udder with a monstrous amount of milk production on soy and corn based feeds (despite the fact that they have diabetes at age 3 and are usually culled for burger meat at that time).
Vigor and health are not priorities at all anymore.
(Best to look for more indigenous non-commercial breeds that are still hardy and thrifty).

Ability to remain healthy and not be susceptible to infections like pneumonia and parasites, is a completely irrelevant quality now, for animals who are again, housed and pampered mother wazoo with all kinds of medications. Big Farmers now, care not a whit for hardiness, thriftiness and easy care qualities, that are such important, valuable, useful, original qualities of ruminants.

4/ Being the predator (who is part of keeping animal species vigorous and strong) is an important responsibility to take on and learn well, when we decide to keep farm animals.
It’s not that a favorite ewe or doe can’t be kept if she’s not as good as your best. It’s that she should not be bred. And she should not be sold. It just weakens the breed here in USA.

Christopher Weeks wrote:
This *really* isn't the kind of answer you're looking for, but since I don't have goats yet, I can't really chip in anything short of philosophy born of history.

Nature ... has successfully raised goats without industrially synthesized dewormers. If it weren't possible -- if goats were really as fragile as they are sometimes portrayed, they wouldn't exist at all.

That’s very true…

I just want to point out one thing though, in case new-to-ruminants-folks misunderstand what you’re saying.

It’s very true, Nature definitely doesn’t use chemicals (outside of those naturally occurring in plants 😅)

But, the conditions in Nature are very different from those where goats are just stuck on some pasture and expected to thrive without any thought about how to make this plot of land and the management of goats and property, more nature-mimicking. (Exception is if it’s an HUGE amount of diverse land and a smaller herd of goats - but this mimics nature fairly well on its own anyway).

Nature has vast expanses where goats and sheep are constantly moving. There are huge varieties of plants to graze, browse, and medicate themselves with regularly.

In the situation of goats-stuck-on-some-land-without-plans, none or very little of that exists. Dewormers, at least, will be necessary for smaller plots of land with a herd of goats and no management plan. Unfortunately, there’s no doubt about that.

Even if one were to take 10 wild hardy goats and confine them to say a 5 acre piece of land, without managing that land and the flock, and planting it out, they would need help too. Though they probably would do better than some of the highly bred goat breeds...

What climate are you in?  Drier climates harbor fewer parasites than wet humid ones.  We’ve gone long periods without chemical worming, but never have been able to get completely away from them.  We rotationally graze and feed brush/trees.  Never tried a copper bolus, but, from what I recall, they are said to help.

tuffy monteverdi wrote:

Tori Escobar wrote:Hi,

I would love to hear from anyone who has been successful at raising goats without using chemical dewormer or other medications. Is this possible? What did you do to accomplish this?

Thanks!

I’ve been raising sheep - a very “goaty” breed of sheep, for more than 10 years. And I do it very well. My sheep are very healthy.
I’ve not used chemicals at all in terms of dewormers, antibiotics, etc, only because I’ve made it so I don’t need to.
I do vaccinate yearly for tetanus as its prevalent in my area.

However I don’t “guess” about anything in order to do this well. I have systems set up that mimic what sheep and goats have evolved to thrive on. And I   *test*, in order to obtain *actual data* to see how my animals are doing outside of the visual and palpable.

1/
I’ve set up a great pasture system where browsing and grazing are available each place they are moved to. The schedule is according to forage growth and health, and no over browsing or overgrazing occurs. The schedule also ensures that minimal parasite infection occurs in my sheep - ie, the schedule works against the parasite life cycle. (Look that up in wormboss.com.au). Haemonchus contortus “Barberpole” is the big one to learn about. The constant moving back and forth from barn and water/minerals to pasture also ensures exercise and fitness.

I’ve planted lots of extra browse that doubles as food for us and also wildlife. Plus sometimes these are nitrogen fixers or have other multi-stacking benefits. And if it’s evergreen that’s even better. Plus planting C4 grasses helps for the warm season when the cool season grasses are dying.
It means I have year round forage for the difficult seasons - in our case that’s the Summer and Fall.

2/ I test fecal samples regularly at key periods yearly on all my animals, to SEE and count what their parasite loads are, and what type…to be sure I’m continuing to do things correctly. And whether I need to modify or tighten up my rotations etc…
or maybe I bought a ewe who just did not turn out to have a great immune system and got infected w a lot of parasites despite a good grazing rotation schedule (no longer than 2-3 days in any one place and don’t return for 3 months to same area). In this case, I would cull this animal.

3/ related to above: I carefully select the animals I keep or sell as ONLY the best animals. The ones who grew the best on our conditions here (with good amounts of forage, hay, browse and pasture), had the lowest parasite counts, had great temperaments, and very importantly, had excellent maternal qualities - that is independent birthing, ability to nurse twins without supplements, good care and mothering skills, and good reliable fertility. I never keep animals who are not healthy or need a lot of help. We eat meat (acting as the predator in our system), so that is a natural use for animals that don’t tally up.

4/
I also test 1-2 liver samples at slaughter and do a mineral analysis to be sure the minerals they are getting are effectively giving my sheep what they need. (You can look this up and learn about it; minerals are a REALLY important factor not to guess on, but to know and understand). I make adjustments on the mineral mix they get based on these analyses. Generally this is most important in the first few years. Once you have the right mix and liver tests are great, you only have to check once in a while to be sure levels are still good.
I do wonder if climate change will change these parameters a bit by changing soil and forage…🤔

5/
I don’t feed grains or feeds because this is not what ruminants evolved to eat. But also, I don’t milk them anymore, so they don’t require extra nutrition. (If I did milk them I would probably figure out an alternative to lots of grain).
Importantly also, I make sure that I have *only* the *right number* of animals that my property and its forage can support. I never stress the system or my animals, with too many.
I do buy surplus (unsprayed) hay, not because we can’t make enough hay by cutting between grazing rotations, but because we simply don’t have time to cut our own.

6/ I chose the right animal breed for my climate, property conditions, topography, size of land, etc.
I did not choose Highland Cattle for flat lowland Mediterranean climate with mild winters and no snow. I chose a primitive, grassfed-type sheep breed that was used to rainy weather, browse and pasture, who was also is a smaller size for my few acre place. And it’s a breed I can milk if I want, as they twin reliably (tho it’s not a dairy breed).

I wanted goats originally, but we have soggy winters, flat land with no rocks, and more pasture than browse (although I have planted a lot of that as my sheep are a browse-y breed). And I liked our place and didn’t want to move.
So I decided against goats, and in favor of a more appropriate animal and breed for these conditions.  
This makes happier, more comfortable animals, less work for me, and a better functioning farm.

7/
I make sure that all the animals i bring onto my farm are healthy, so they don’t bring disease to the rest of my flock and so that I’m not starting with sick animals. Sick animals are a lot of unnecessary work and unhappiness. (Permaculture doesn’t condone that 😉)
That means testing *each* animal before purchase and also researching the farm I am buying animals from, to be sure they test their animals too and maintain good biosecurity.

FYI: 70% of ruminant flocks and herds (goats, sheep, and cows) in USA have 1 *or more* of these three chronic HIV-like diseases: OPP/CAE, Caseous Lymphadenitis, and Johnes disease.
Look these up and learn about them.
They are incurable and *incredibly prevalent* in USA, especially in goats.

You said you have some issues with thin goats. I would check them for these diseases - especially Johnes. Weight loss in middle aged animals is the first sign for all of these diseases though.

Cleaning up one’s farm if these diseases are present, can be difficult as some of these organisms last up to 18 months in the soils. But it is very important to do this well, and cull all positive animals immediately.

This is why BIOSECURITY is also important. If you are bringing in shearers and folks from other farms, make sure they have non-farm boots on, clean clipper blades and equipment, etc etc. You can read and learn about this. Most of these kinds of chronic diseases can be spread on feces stick to boots and body fluids on hands and clothing, etc…


Ok, that is a short (yes!) glimpse of the way I keep animals without chemicals. And my animals are REALLY healthy and happy. As is my silvopasture, meadows and orchard - all of which benefit from the animals and good browse/grassfed management. (And good permaculture design).

Happy to answer questions

Thank you for all this information and advice!
I can at least say I’m doing some of what you have outlined. The goats are moved daily to new paddocks in electric netting. A lot of the property is browse and we give them trees weekly since we are selectively clearing for more pasture. They go in a shed at night which has hay and a mineral bar plus a salt mix from Redmond.
Since this is our beginning in husbandry, I think it’s just hard to know the signs of something being wrong vs normal for goats.
I’m grateful for your description of your place and management because it lets me know that this is possible! It can be discouraging when you think your not doing enough but also wanting to support more hardy animals.

Tori Escobar wrote:
I have had goats for just about 2 years. They are rotationally grazed through our land which includes lots of trees, bushes and browsing options. They are never in one place more than 2 days.
They go in a shed at night and when weather is very bad. I only have three right now. They have only received herbal dewormer and have access at night to a full mineral bar.
My one milk doe who kidded in December is so thin. She is a nubian but looks to be just loosing weight since kidding. I’ve been milking her but decided to stop because of her condition. She gets some supplemented oats and alfalfa pellets but it doesn’t seem to make a difference.
What would you do?
Is this a situation where she’s just not a good fit for the farm or do I use chemical dewormer to save her from continued weight loss?
Her doeling I hope will be more suited to our management.

Sounds like an excellent setup. How long are you resting each space for after they’ve been in it?

Dairy goats often go through a skinny phase shortly after birth, but if they’re healthy, they bounce back over time. Most dairy goats will lower their milk production on their own if they are not getting enough calories or if there are serious health issues.

You could try feeding sunflower seeds in with her treats, these will provide fats as well as extra calories. How much oats are you feeding her each day?

The most important thing about any change in feed is to do it gradually - start with a small amount (or small increase) and work it up gradually to whatever amount seems right.

If you’ve done a worm count and it looks like worms, feeding herbs, diatomacious earth, and tannin-rich plants such as oak leaves can help.

If she has trouble with lots of oats, you could consider feeding barley instead. My goats don’t seem to show any difference between oat, barley, or wheat feeding though. Probiotics might help too.