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eco witch hunt

 
                            
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Eco Witch hunt, Zealots? Intolerance of others beliefs...

Ok, I shouldn't open my mouth here, but I seem to have difficulties keeping it shut.

I don't think that the EcoWitch Hunt is an isolated issue. What I perceive, rightly or wrongly is tremendous intolerance of belief's which differ from one's own. I'm not saying that everyone is like that, but it seems to me that it's an unfortunate part of the emotional makeup of many people. It is very pervasive and insidious and occasionally I've found myself guilty of it. I am a big believer that humans need plenty of personal space and that right now, the earth is overcrowded with humans. There have been experiments done regarding aggressive behaviors in overcrowded rats. It is interesting, and sad to see how our human behavior parallels rat behavior. I'm not wanting anyone to get upset over my perceptions, they are mine, whether or not others share them.

Most people who have read my postings are well aware that I have standard poodles. Through the years I've spent in "Poodledom", I've gradually drifted away from the "Big hair" show dog look (I don't need my ego stoked, and don't need to pay for someone else to give me their opinion in regards to the structure of one of my poodles), to the basic essentials of what makes a poodle, poodle personality, relationships with humans, etc. I'm interested in how I can utilize that poodle hair (clothing, insulation), what "jobs" my poodles can do or assist with. Talk about witch hunters! Many of the show people would willingly burn me at the stake!

Bottom line, the bigger the distance, the less the conflict.

Back on topic, regarding people working toward mutual eco goals... humans also tend to be followers. When one is enthusiastically passionate about their beliefs and respectful towards others, regardless of their beliefs... people start listening, learning and following!
 
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Feral wrote:
Back on topic, regarding people working toward mutual eco goals... humans also tend to be followers. When one is enthusiastically passionate about their beliefs and respectful towards others, regardless of their beliefs... people start listening, learning and following!



I think humans tend to be followers, but that they almost always think they can do better than the leader as well.  Sometimes this is veiled behind a "this way works better *for me*" wording, but while people like to look to others for instruction, they rarely follow it verbatim.  I'm definitely guilty of that in many cases, and I'm not sure it's a bad thing.  I think experimentation is the key to innovation.  But it can cause the instructor/leader folks to be rubbed the wrong way as generally those willing to teach don't want to be questioned.  That's when you get into the messy debates about beliefs, dogmatism, etc.

It's often easier, less stressful, and definitely a better lesson learned for somebody to try something wrong and learn from their mistake, than to have the opinion that it is wrong forced down their throat when they are not allowed to try.  So unless a person is putting themselves at risk, I think it's generally better to encourage trial and error of ideas.

I think ultimately, we should all realize that every single person, including ourselves, has some unique insights worth teaching others.  Yet we should always try to remain humble and while it is good to be willing to instruct others, we should never expect them to follow our choices blindly.  Easier said than done.
 
steward
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and I think we're painting with a pretty broad brush.  despite the increasing reach of globalized culture, there are still plenty of distinct cultures around the world.  some are very homogeneous and the vast majority folks don't feel any need to distinguish themselves from everyone else.  others cultures praise individualism as the very highest virtue.  others are someplace in between on that spectrum or maybe on an entirely different spectrum altogether.  that suggests to me that a lot of what we call "human nature" is actually just human culture.  not suggesting anyone here has thrown "human nature" out there recently.
 
C Shobe
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tel jetson wrote:
and I think we're painting with a pretty broad brush.  despite the increasing reach of globalized culture, there are still plenty of distinct cultures around the world.  some are very homogeneous and the vast majority folks don't feel any need to distinguish themselves from everyone else.  others cultures praise individualism as the very highest virtue.  others are someplace in between on that spectrum or maybe on an entirely different spectrum altogether.  that suggests to me that a lot of what we call "human nature" is actually just human culture.  not suggesting anyone here has thrown "human nature" out there recently.



Good point!  Yet even with diverse cultures and isolated pockets within them, I'm guessing that statements made about "most humans" is still accurate.  But indeed, I think a lot of things things that often get attributed with human nature are indeed just the result of acculturation.  People are capable of great change, but it is perhaps easier to say "that's just my nature" than to admit our capability to ourselves.
 
                                              
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Scott Reil wrote:
snip..........We are beyond live and let live and well into live and let die. We have been for some time; our disregard of our fellow species is as long as our history on this planet. ........



WOW what a neat thread!!!

Heres where this goes for me. and all thing being connected they circle back in on eachother....  hopefully I say what Im going to try to well, because i thinks its a good point.....

Are we going to have more progress transitioning to a balance with our world by telling folks they are wrong or by showing them others ways? Look how much division there is WITHIN a movement. Let alone those outside of it.

The more a group tries to define itself the more people it drives a way. So why define it? Just show folks various paths towards balance.... 

sure discussing issues is great, its how we learn. But Id argue that part of the way a forest works, and permmaculture (atleast how I see it) IS diversity. where one plant fails another doesnt. this also happens within the genetic range of a single species.

hmmm I think I could of made the point better, but I think you can see what I meant to get at within this.
 
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When I read about these types of situations all I can think of is Life of Brian. The revolutionaries were busier hating the other anti-Roman groups than they were subverting the Romans.
 
                                
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You know, this thread is awesome, but I have to say my two cents (of course)

I want to live "eco-friendly" and "eco-conscious". But I'm a single Mom working with 35-40 hours weeks at 10.30-13.30 hr.

Rent takes up about  1/2 to 3/4ths my income. Gas, medical, electricity, etc, takes up a whole lot more.
CFL bulbs? Might not be great for the environment, but they use less energy which means less of my money goes to provide my home with light. Turn em off if they're not needed and get by without heat when you can dress warmly.
And shopping? Goodness, I would love organic, it tastes better, but I can't afford it with my kids and salary.
Grow my own? I can't afford to start or the time as I would have to have 100% indoor container grown  food.
But I want to live Eco-ly! Buy local? When I can find it on sale.
Have a homestead! When I finally scrimp enough together to buy property!

My point in this post is so many people would go BAH!! Burn HER, she bought something with styrofoam!!! and She didn't recycle either!!!
But, I'm human, and trying. I don't recycle plastics except for food storage, I buy big name brand clothes on sale but I also recycle them into new clothes when my children outgrow them. I make my own cheese and butter from raw milk and cream I buy at 4.95/ 1/2 gal and 7.99 quart.


Some things however make me feel a little better, recently I took my daughters to a big restaurant to celebrate my birthday. We ate almost all the food we could and took the rest into to go containers (Microwaveable, and dishwasher safe yet compostable!)
The parents next to us chided their children to finish all their food, yet left more than half of their own on their plates. My four year old saw this and freaked out.
What are they going to do with that food? Why are they wasting it?!?! She actually called the waiter over and asked him their policy on food waste. She scolded him for throwing it away and the waiter felt bad.
At least I taught her to eat all her food, and to not waste it.
 
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If  scoring a "ten" means you are a veritable boddhisatva of permaculture, this should suggest that your skills extend to working within human community and not just relating well with plants, trees, chickens and goats.

And that in turn suggests that while your understanding far surpasses that of us half-blind fours, fives and sixes, that very understanding enables you to interact with others in such a way as to unite, energize and motivate us to do some basic things that are really necessary and not so avant-garde as to be scary/weird/threatening.

Even ones, twos and threes would probably agree that they would prefer to drink clean water, breathe clean air and eat healthy food.

If we can't engage others and consequently end up doing it all alone, then our impact will be small. And if we are not engaging others, we are not emulating nature as permaculture teaches we should. We know that a healthy ecosystem is not based on an unconnected assortment of isolated individual elements in physical proximity, but rather on elements densely interrelated and interconnected. Why would we believe otherwise about healthy human communities?

For me this is the hardest part of it. Much easier to get a plant guild going than bring together a connected group of humans that work together well and meet each other's needs.
 
Lee Einer
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Scott Reil wrote:
And those of us here making any effort are drowned in the din of "not damaging the economy", as if depleting natural resource and destroying reproductive systems that are providing free services we cannot replicate made some sort of economic sense (it DOESN'T).



It does make economic sense, in a twisted way. It is the terrible conclusion arising logically from a demented premise.

The global economy is an interest-based economy. Because capital is private, and must return interest on investment, production and consumption must constantly increase.

But an economy which requires constant growth is on a collision course with finite resources.

I'm going to put this out there; I think at the root of much of this is capital and the private, interest-driven economic system as the unregulated commons. This is the invisible structure driving us to derangement and destruction of our physical surroundings.

It is a system which will inevitably collapse. The question is, how much damage will it do before it collapses, and what sound structures can we create that will survive it?

Unfortunately, much of the "green" talk seems to be about continuing to feed the monster, just switching the feed from petroleum to solar, wind, biomass, whatever so we can continue on the present path of endless growth. I think this is greenwashing, or at least myopia. But I have good friends committed to the environment who think me a heretic and a bastard for suggesting that transitioning the present system to big on-grid solar/wind/biomass without addressing the problem of continual growth simply perpetuates the root problem.
 
tel jetson
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LasVegasLee wrote:
But an economy which requires constant growth is on a collision course with finite resources.



and you're on a collision course with paul wheaton's discomfort zone.  just so you know.  for what it's worth, I'm right there with you.  paul has a certain fondness for capitalism, though, and won't brook much criticism.  one notable exception is this thread in the meaningless drivel forum.  ended up going in circles after a while, which is probably to be expected.
 
Lee Einer
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Thanks for the link, Tel. I enjoyed reading that thread.

FWIW, I think talking about peak oil, the coming collapse, and the multiple human-created environmental crises we face without talking about the global growth-driven economy and alternatives to it is metaphorically ignoring the elephant in our living room.
 
Lee Einer
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Scott Reil wrote:
MT Goat raises the salient issue, the tragedy of the commons.

I think of it as the tragedy of the unregulated commons.

When common resources are governed by those who depend upon them, the phenomenon referred to to as "the tragedy of the commons" becomes much more unlikely.

We have a good model of this with the acequias of the southwestern US, where "acequia" refers both to the physical water-carrying ditch and to the political body of ditch users which governs the acequia for their common good.

 
master steward
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I think the point of this thread is about how some people are so passionate about waving the eco flag that they will knowingly smack people in the head with the flag.  In the name of eco.  And I think that is not okay.
 
Lee Einer
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paul wheaton wrote:
I think the point of this thread is about how some people are so passionate about waving the eco flag that they will knowingly smack people in the head with the flag.  In the name of eco.  And I think that is not okay.



I agree.

I can think of any number of activists I have known that were passionate about their causes, and often factually correct, but terribly ineffective and sometimes counterproductive because they could not work effectively even with those people who were on the same side of the issue.

I have heard that this is the difference between an activist and an organizer. That an activist typically acts out while an organizer brings people together.
 
                                
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I do my darnedest to never argue the "I'm right, you are wrong" with people.  In my opinion it really doesn't matter.

It doesn't matter if climate change is our fault or a natural temperature trend.  It's a fact that there are difference in the climate.  No argument needed, and it's silly to scream at each other to decide "why".

It doesn't matter if we are running out of coal, natural gas or oil.  We all can agree that there is only so much available.  The argument is why the sam-hell are we not conserving it at every possible turn? 

It's when we get caught up in the "right-fight" that the real meaning gets lost.  I can't stand when something so simple as to conserve the air, water and life on this planet is lost in the fight that I'm right and you are wrong. 

Sometimes it's so hard to find all the facts.  Today we should eat more fish, but the reality is that the fish are disappearing now that we are eating more fish.  Today we should buy organic, the reality is that the word "organic" is losing its meaning. We should use more efficient light bulbs, the reality is that they may end up polluting the earth after their use.  So which is worse, the light bulb that lasts longer and uses less electricity, but is worse when it is discarded or one that uses more electricity but doesn't contain heavy metals?  Even I'm confused over that issue.  Catch 22.

The moral of the story is to do what you can do, we all can conserve.  First reduce your overall usage, then re-use all you can, then re-cycle everything else.  Infinite consumption is the death of us all. 
 
master pollinator
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Chefmom wrote:
I can't stand when something so simple as to conserve the air, water and life on this planet is lost in the fight that I'm right and you are wrong. 



But it isn't simple to folks who don't think there's any reason to conserve.   
 
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Big +1 to what Paul's saying here...

But I had this same problem when I first came to this forum and made a post about GMO seeds... So it happens everywhere. I've learned to just smile, debate intelligently, and shut up when people don't want to have the discussion anymore. Life's too short to argue with inflexible people.
 
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Chefmom wrote:
The moral of the story is to do what you can do, we all can conserve.  First reduce your overall usage, then re-use all you can, then re-cycle everything else.  Infinite consumption is the death of us all. 



Yes, these are good things.  I would add that bartering/trading/time banking something LOCAL would be THE best place to start - that and growing your own food.

Changing our programmed behaviour is VERY difficult.  Try putting on your other (right/left: from what you normally do) pant leg or shirt sleeve first - it feels awkward. 

It took me several years to unlearn electrical and car usage habits.  I now measure the quality of my life (one of many) by how many days I do NOT get in any car.
 
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Diana Leafe Christian wrote:

First, the folks at Earthaven who wanted to dig a well in their neighborhood did not, as Paul's comment suggests, also insist that the permaculture teacher agree with or also use their kind of irrigation or agricultural systems. They were fine for her to employ her preferred methods on her homesite and in her neighborhood. This was not a conflict between two parties who each had the view, "Do it my way; the right way!" Rather, it was a conflict between a party who said, "Do it my way, the right way, and I'll block proposals that will allow you to do it your way," and those who said, "Let's each do it the way we prefer and see how it turns out, share the information, and all learn from all these agricultural experiments."



I would hate to live with this woman, but could  she perhaps have been concerned that the well would lower the watertable affecting everyone on the community?
 
Fred Winsol
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Pignut wrote:
I would hate to live with this woman, but could  she perhaps have been concerned that the well would lower the watertable affecting everyone on the community?


a bit judgemental?  Diana's entire post ends with 'compassion exhaustion' ...  i think 12+ years of trying to empathize and work with someone is plenty. 
What i learned at a short stay at Sieben Linden was three magic words:  communication, communication, communication... endless dialogue and loving kindness/compassion are keys to successful community.
 
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This is one of the best threads on this forum.

No matter how we live our lives individually, we are still a part of a system. It feels like a runaway train and sometimes it feels like I am stuck on the track in front of it.

Like the fellow that so passionately lived in the trees to save them, we are doing our best to make a difference. I think we are.

But what do we do about the System! 
 
Fred Winsol
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i have 'evolved' to follow two sound bites by Bucky Fuller:

“You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete.”
and
“You may assume that you are fulfilling your significance if you apply yourself to converting all your experience to the highest advantage of others.”
 
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Fluorescent bulbs are great and I couldn't say anything bad about them, until I needed a brooder bulb for my chicks.  Sometimes things serve a purpose other than light.  When we as a people or Govt. ban something we should step back and examine all of the uses of a given item before we eliminate its existence.
 
steward
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The ban does not include 'specialty' bulbs.  Heat lamps are 'specialty' bulbs.
 
Mike Guillory
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Then I found out the flourescent bulbs were not even made here in America.  How many thousands of jobs sacrificed so that mercury from the flourescent bulbs can enter into our ground water stream.  We must also be very careful with the fluorescent bulbs so as not to break them and subject our children to mercury poisoning.  On the bright side however, my utility bill was lowered by a few dollars per month.
 
Tyler Ludens
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Industrial fluorescent tubes with mercury  in them have been used in schools, grocery stores, etc for decades and nobody cared.  Why suddenly care because the bulbs have been made smaller and have less mercury in them?

 
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Thank you for those quotes, Winsol3. I have heard and try to live by the first, the second I think I'll need to work on.
This thread made me think of an article about black and white thinking on the Archdruid Report. http://thearchdruidreport.blogspot.com/2011/10/trouble-with-binary-thinking.html

"Human beings, according to the teaching you’re about to receive, normally think in binaries—that is, polarized relationships between one thing and another, in which the two things are seen as total opposites. That habit is universal and automatic enough that it’s most likely hardwired into our brains, and there’s good reason why it should be. Most of the snap decisions our primate ancestors had to make on the African savannah are most efficiently sorted out into binary pairs: food/nonfood, predator/nonpredator, and so on. The drawbacks to this handy set of internal categories don’t seem to bother any of our primate relatives, and probably became an issue—like so much that’s part of magic—only when the rickety structure of the reasoning mind took shape over the top of the standard-issue social primate brain.

The difficulty, like so many of the difficulties that beset humanity, is one of overgeneralizing a good idea. There’s no significant middle ground between food and nonfood, say, or between predator and nonpredator, and so the reactive response we’re discussing excludes the possibility of middle ground; it’s either edible (or considering you as edible), or it’s not. The more complex classifications that the reasoning mind can use, though, admit of a great deal of middle ground, and so do the equally complex relationships that develop in societies once the reasoning mind gets to work on relationships between social primates. When we have the opportunity to consider such things carefully, it’s not hard to see this, but the hardwired habit of snap judgments in binary form is always right below the surface. In most cases all it takes is a certain amount of stress to trigger it. Any kind of stress will do, and over the years, practitioners of mass thaumaturgy have gotten very good at finding ways to make people feel stressed so that the binary reaction kicks in and can be manipulated to order. "

So trying to evolve ourselves beyond binary thinking to spectrum thinking will probably help us react with less anger/passion/negativity and those we are discussing issues with will be able to hear us better if we are calm.....
 
pollinator
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Paul has been very busy on the farm and delegating more, so I thought that his presence might be felt by reviving an old thread where he had quite a bit of input. I'm going to search out some other good old threads for another look whenever I notice that he can't be here. ------- I thought this discussion went pretty well. It seems that the "eco scale" thread and this one are close cousins. -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I just read the whole thing. --- The witch hunt thing has always bothered me. I was once hurrying to remove the T and G flooring and other valuables from a house that would be crushed by an excavator in a few hours. A pair of sissy boys stopped by to tell me that it was a horrible thing that I was doing. They wanted the old house to remain. (That was never a viable option on a large downtown site that contained a little house that had to go in order to clear space for a nursing home.)

Even when I explained that anything left behind would be in the dump tomorrow, they insisted that nothing should be salvaged, as this would only encourage future destruction of nice little houses. I went back to my work, while they yelled obscenities from the sidewalk. They tried in vain to gain support from people who passed buy on the sidewalk. Some of those people came in to view items that were for sale.

Everyone involved, wanted to prevent the waste of resources.
I salvaged a whole bunch of stuff. My customers bought stuff, which has to happen if I'm to continue. They saved money and trips to Home Depot. Our two zealots got absolutely nothing done, although they appeared to be the most passionate of all the people that I met that day. The approach chosen and their choice of "enemy" made no sense. They weren't just "preaching to the choir", they told the choir to go straight to hell.
 
pollinator
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I think intolerance of others is one of the big issues with the increacing globalisation of the planet. Does not matter weather it is over religion , politics or what other belief system you have .
Same old same old .
Me, I just try to keep to myself and do what I can, if others follow my example all to the good ,it bothers me not . If I see someone doing something I like ,I copy them .

and I sleep well at night

David
 
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Thanks for the bump here, Dale.

Very thought provoking thread. The three or more sides to so many stories are brought out. Fortunately I have grown out of much of my own zealotry. Wanting something so much can be blinding. My zealous days were still days of education and learning. I still feel just as strongly about what I wanted in my younger days. I'd still love to witch hunt down whoever bombed Judi Bari. I'm just a bit more careful of what my own actions will mean to any progress I would choose.

I loved the Bucky Fuller quotes a few posts back.

I'm a tree worshiper with a sawmill. When I make my own lumber, it gets done the way I want it done and doesn't finance the total destruction I am looking at out my window. Crossing the creek to spike a tree won't stop it, but it could stop me. You can't lead a horse to water when it's thinking about only a paycheck. Goodbye to them. I am heading for a forest garden.
 
Dale Hodgins
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Here's a link to the Wheaton Eco Scale --- http://www.permies.com/t/3069/toxin-ectomy/Wheaton-Eco-Scale
 
Evacuate the building! Here, take this tiny ad with you:
permaculture bootcamp - learn permaculture through a little hard work
https://permies.com/wiki/bootcamp
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