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car leaking (steering) fluid, smoking, resolved with clutch replacement too

 
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The radiator hose pointed to above is #8 hose in this diagram.

To instal my #5 power steering hose, shown in this diagram,  it would make things imensly easier if I can temporarily disconect this from the radiator. I just want to verify that this would not create a problem. You know, cause I'm way out on a limb here, under the hood of any car.
 
Joylynn Hardesty
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By the way, #5 power steering hose is proving difficult to pry off. The end is shredding/torn/something. Hence yup, a problem. In the past I've been able to pry such things off by useing a wide flat screwdriver as a lever thingy. Is there  better/other thing to do? I really don't want to have to cut a slit in the end... But I could...
 
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Yes, #8 can come off. Unless that's a seriously alien car, it's non-pressurized and easy to remove.

#5, If you are replacing it it doesn't matter what you do to it as long as you don't mess up the fitting. Cutting it off is easier than prying a shredding hose.
 
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Other than anti freeze leaking out of the hose/radiator/engine no problem unhooking that hose. You may want to catch the anti freeze in a pan for re-use or be sure to add antifreeze after the job. Look at the reservoir can it be unbolted to make access easier? I agree that sometimes cutting the stubborn hose is easier than prying/leveraging against a component you don't want to damage.
 
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An alternative to cutting that sometimes works well with old stuck hoses is to take a pair of pliers (or ideally vice grips), grip the end securely, and rotate it until it loosens, or as you're pulling.

As others have said, you can definitely take 8 off, just keep in mind if it's old also it may be hard to do without damaging it (worth seeing if it's pliable or stiff first, if it's stiff, have a replacement on hand first). And of course plenty of antifreeze to replace what leaks out, which depending on how far down the hose goes, may be most of what's in your engine. (It looks like an upper hose though so probably not.) You will also want to be prepared to 'burp' your coolant system to get any air bubbles out, air bubbles in your coolant system can cause weird swings on your engine temperature gauge and issues with your heater.
 
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Anna Dunster wrote:An alternative to cutting that sometimes works well with old stuck hoses is to take a pair of pliers (or ideally vice grips), grip the end securely, and rotate it until it loosens, or as you're pulling.


I like channel locks for that maneuver
:D
And welcome to permies Anna!! :D
 
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Pearl Sutton wrote:
And welcome to permies Anna!! :D



Thank you :D I've been a member for a while but I'm not very active :o
 
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ive noticed that many Napa stores here in Tennessee have part of the store and a clerk or two devoted to nothing but hoses, all kinds of hoses, and make up custom hydraulic hoses while you wait.
 
Joylynn Hardesty
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Sooo. I got it all back together.

It seems the battery does not want to charge, so that gave me some heart palpitations... It did not do the usual rahr rhar of a dead battery. But it did start with a jump. No smoking. It ran for 20 minutes before I tried to put it in gear.

More bad news, it does not want to go. A friend suggests the clutch. Sigh.

Link to my car's transmission diagrams. It is a 5-speed manual car.

How does one troubleshoot a clutch?
 
Joylynn Hardesty
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Here is a picture instructional for removing the transmission. Looks like some kind of lift, way to make the car be raised off the ground is necessary. But how far? maybe a ramp would suffice?

WIS Online instructionals for the transmission here.

This is waaayyy out of my comfort level.
 
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Well, that sucks .....first things first. To test the Alternator, when the car is running, take a screw diver and see if it 'sticks' to the center-back of the alternator.
This is an old-school trick to see if the alt is creating a magnetic field. No stick probably means no charge (time for new alternator). If it sticks and still not charging, it could be a bad/dirty connection.
Could also be a bad fuseable link, sometimes they fail with age.

Don't panic yet on the trans, if it hasn't given you any touble in the past, it's probably something simple.

Keep us posted.

-Pete
 
Joylynn Hardesty
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Looks like The WIS instructions for troubleshooting is here. Maybe.

I do not understand how to find:

As a pre-condition the gearbox should have been removed as described in Section 431 "Dismantling, assembly".


Unless that means removal similar to the picture tutorial above.

Below is a conversion from automatic to manual transmission using some harvested parts.

 
Joylynn Hardesty
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Pete wrote:Well, that sucks .....first things first. To test the Alternator, when the car is running, take a screw diver and see if it 'sticks' to the center-back of the alternator.  



Does This have to do with the charging of the battery-correct? My memory on this stuff can be fuzzy.
 
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...a few clutch questions your you

-Do you feel any 'pedal' on that clutch? (does it feel like it's working)

-Any chance you can shift through the gears with the engine off?

-Is it safe to assume it's parked on flat ground and not on a hill?

-E-brake is on?

-I assume your foot has to be on the brake pedal in order to shift? (ie: is there a safety switch lockout?)


-Pete
 
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Yep, the alt charges the battery. Sometime a light will appear on the dash if it's not charging.

-Pete
 
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OK, let's not panic, so when you had the no start problem, did you hear anything clicks, buzzes. grunts, anything like that?  Does it start now that you let it run 20 minutes? if you have a volt meter a fully charged healthy battery will measure roughly 12.6 volts. When running the alternator will put out more voltage in the 13.6 area, maybe more if measured immediately after start up. Could your repairs have wiggled a battery cable while you were working? Do you have a light on the hood when you open the hood? If you do could that light have been on for an inordinate amount of time while you were working?, Door open while you were working?
Have you had any clutch issues prior to your leaky power steering hose? Your neighbor mentioned brake smell initially, that would also be the smell of a slipping clutch. You mentioned smoke. Could a slipping clutch caused the smoke and alerted you to the power steering leak? Is  it possible that the power steering fluid leak was close to where the clutch is? Did you loose much fluid during the hose change and if you did where did that fluid go?, could you tell? Could it be possible that the power steering leak repair has dripped fluid onto the clutch disc?
 
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I do not understand how to find:

  As a pre-condition the gearbox should have been removed as described in Section 431 "Dismantling, assembly".



Unless that means removal similar to the picture tutorial above.


That means to drop your transmission.
Suggestion: DO NOT put your fingers in the clutch until all other options have been checked! DO NOT drop your transmission. I have done lots of cars, and I have dropped a tranny, and it ain't fun, and it ain't easy, and there's nothing I will do (and I'm good with cars) that involves opening it. That's probably a good line of "what is over your head." It's over mine, I know that.

If your clutch wasn't having problems before, I doubt it's something you need to open up now. WAY more likely a cable or tube got moved, broken, or air bubbles in it. Or like Robert says, fluids got on it. If there's any kind of power that affects the transmission or clutch, something may have gone bad there.
 
Joylynn Hardesty
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Pete wrote:...a few clutch questions your you

-Do you feel any 'pedal' on that clutch? (does it feel like it's working)



Yes

-Any chance you can shift through the gears with the engine off?



Yes

-Is it safe to assume it's parked on flat ground and not on a hill?



Flatish, with bricks in front of the front tires, as stops.

-E-brake is on?



No. Because of bricks.

-I assume your foot has to be on the brake pedal in order to shift? (ie: is there a safety switch lockout?)



If you mean to shift out of reverse, where this model belongs when parked, yes.
 
Joylynn Hardesty
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Robert wrote:OK, let's not panic, so when you had the no start problem, did you hear anything clicks, buzzes. grunts, anything like that?



see video below
EDIT: video will post soonish below...

Does it start now that you let it run 20 minutes?



Yes!

if you have a volt meter a fully charged healthy battery will measure roughly 12.6 volts when running the alternator will put out more voltage in the 13.6 area, maybe more if measured immediately after start up.



No meter

Could your repairs have wiggled a battery cable while you were working? Do you have a light on the hood when you open the hood? If you do could that light have been on for an inordinate amount of time while you were working?, Door open while you were working?



I took the damn battery out to be able to reach things. So, no. But maybe removing it done it?

Have you had any clutch issues prior to your leaky power steering hose?



Yes. We thought it was to do with the clutch cable that we recently replaced. It had been reving at inappropriate times. Was slow to get up to speed... The cable is currently firmly in place. Also, after parking it, the car did not want to stay in place. Should have really taken note of that huh?

Your neighbor mentioned brake smell initially, that would also be the smell of a slipping clutch. You mentioned smoke. could a slipping clutch caused the smoke and alerted you to the power steering leak?



Yes.

Is  it possible that the power steering fluid leak was close to where the clutch is?



My green line way above trying to describe where the smoke was coming from initially is not a good representation of the shape. Ha! It is the transmission that the spot of fluid was on. So, um yes.

Did you loose much fluid during the hose change and if you did where did that fluid go?, could you tell? Could it be possible that the power steering leak repair has dripped fluid onto the clutch disc?



I think less than half a cup. Most of which was absorbed in a washcloth. But, maybe? See diagrams linked a few posts above to find out...
 
Joylynn Hardesty
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The horrifying sound of my car not starting.

The link.

The vehicle that you hear running, is attached to the end of those battery cables.
 
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Great, The no start sounds like a battery cable issue. The clutch issue sounds like it might be from oil on the disc. The slipping occasionally and then smoke with brake smell. Now, how bad has the disc been soiled. If there is any way you can spray brake cleaner on the friction disc that is what I would try next?
 
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You mentioned having replaced the old clutch cable. You may or may not know if you replaced it with an original auto adjusting style or a manualy adjusted improved type. You mentioned that the car would roll when turned off and in gear did I read that correctly? That might be an important tidbit.
 
Joylynn Hardesty
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Robert wrote:The clutch issue sounds like it might be from oil on the disc. The slipping occasionally and then smoke with brake smell. Now, how bad has the disc been soiled. If there is any way you can spray brake cleaner on the friction disc that is what I would try next?



Oh, and the steering fluid maybe was 1/4 cup low before I started tearing into the car.

Brake cleaner... Would this be different than B-12 Chemtool?

I'll have to look hard at the above picture, diagram links to see precicely where to look for the ummm gap?

You mentioned having replaced the old clutch cable. You may or may not know if you replaced it with an original auto adjusting style or a manualy adjusted improved type.



It was aftermarket from Autozone... I think manually adjusted. Just checked, yes, the manually adjusted type.

Good news. We got the loaner vehicle for another two weeks.

 
Joylynn Hardesty
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Pete wrote: To test the Alternator, when the car is running, take a screw diver and see if it 'sticks' to the center-back of the alternator.  



This test will need to be done tomorrow.

Robert wrote: Great, The no start sounds like a battery cable issue.



Also the battery cable is in bad shape. Some gunk on it. With a significant amount of insulation missing. Oh goody. We do not have any Coke to use to disolve the stuff off. Will try to get that tomorrow...

I'd decided to replace the cables, but thought I'd wait a couple weeks. This should be faily easy right? I do mean the actual cables, not the cable connectors/clamps.

After the borrowed vehicle has had a oil change. Not my workload, Hurrah!
 
Joylynn Hardesty
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My battery cables. The hot cable looks worse to me than the picture shows.

20210924_191707.jpg
[Thumbnail for 20210924_191707.jpg]
 
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Baking soda works on the cables too. and it's not sticky.
 
Joylynn Hardesty
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And I have that too!

I'm thinking a stiff toothbrush? Would a wire bruh be too much for the BARE copper wire?
 
Joylynn Hardesty
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Also, I suspect detatching from the battery would be a good idea, Hmmm?

 
Joylynn Hardesty
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Uh oh. The battery cable lists at $135. Ha! No.

How about wraping it with innertube? And cable tying it on? Or is this really not needed?

EDIT: If the wraping gets done, RED duct tape will also be involved!

 
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Those battery cables don't look too terrible. How many cables come off the back side of it?  Might be worth taking a look at the universal, spliceable options that autozone
or other parts stores sell. https://www.autozone.com/batteries-starting-and-charging/battery-cable

To be clear, what do you mean when you say the car 'doesn't go'? You were able to start the engine and leave it running if I understand right, but when you hit the gas, what happens? Engine revs and the car doesn't move, or?
 
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Is the graunch noise when the key returns to the running position? Is it possible the starter motor is failing to disengage? There could be a problem with the wiring to the motor, or within the motor itself.
 
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Joylynn Hardesty wrote:And I have that too!

I'm thinking a stiff toothbrush? Would a wire bruh be too much for the BARE copper wire?



Baking soda (make a paste with water) & wire brush is best, try to get the copper wire as shiny as possible. Rinse with water & repeat until it no longer foams.
If you removed the battery, that probably had something to do with it, likely just a bad connection.
Replace the cable end if you can't get a tight fit, sometimes they get finicky after awhile.

I'd agree that initial burning smell might have been the clutch.

On the upside - it's good to get all this maintanance out of the way before winter! ;-)
 
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You already have replacement ends on those cables. I'm sure there is a work around rather than a cable that costs 135.00. Don't forget to clean the battery terminals themselves and the inside of the terminals. Temps will be dropping and efficacy drops with the temps. I haven't seen where you commented on your car rolling when parked and in gear did I read that correctly?
 
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How many cables
come off the back side of it?  


2 off each terminal.

Anna wrote:You were able to start the engine and leave it running if I understand right, but when you hit the gas, what happens? Engine revs and the car doesn't move, or?  



It ran. Yesterday, it started without help after it had been left running for 30 mins. Haven't tried that again yet today.

The gear box goes to the correct gear, but pushing the gas it will only rev and move very very slowly. I travel ed 100 yards and back. On the trip back, the kid had to push to help it get going...
 
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Nancy wrote:Is the graunch noise when the key returns to the running position? Is it possible the starter motor is failing to disengage? There could be a problem with the wiring to the motor, or within the motor itself.



The noise starting was with the key turned to start it. There was a couple times a single pop, backfire, after releaseing the key.


I think having started with the jumper cables, the trouble w no ould be with battery, or alternator..?. It just didn't sound like a starter.
 
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Robert wrote:  I haven't seen where you commented on your car rolling when parked and in gear did I read that correctly?



Yes. Sigh.

me wrote: ... We thought it was to do with the clutch cable that we recently replaced. It had been reving at inappropriate times. Was slow to get up to speed... The cable is currently firmly in place. Also, after parking it, the car did not want to stay in place. Should have really taken note of that huh?



Me rephreasing and explianing above:

Maybe 6-9 weeks ago the clutch cable snaped, broken. We replaced it. Occaisionally the car would rev as we drove down the road, not having increased the pressure on the gas. This was also not associated with shifting the gears. We intended to get back under there and try to adjust it again.

In the week or two before the smoke happened, the car was having trouble getting up to speed from a stop sign, etc. Still thinking it was the cable.

The day of the smoking incident, after parking the car here at home, Hunny mentioned the car rolling when it had been placed in reverse, which is the proper position for park in this car. We put stoppers in font of the wheels. And left it there untill I replaced the steering lines yesterday.

 
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Joylynn Hardesty wrote:

The gear box goes to the correct gear, but pushing the gas it will only rev and move very very slowly. I travel ed 100 yards and back. On the trip back, the kid had to push to help it get going...



That unfortunately sounds very much like a slipping clutch, and probably the most expensive fix you have in front of you now. :(

I'm pretty handy with a car and worked in parts for ages, etc but I wouldn't be keen on replacing a clutch myself.  However, if you have a couple people to help it could be done. You would most likely need enough jacks and stands to a) get the car high enough to have space to work under the engine area with the transmission dropped, and b) lift the engine and the transmission separately.  Might also be worth checking for other potential failure items in that area while you are in there and be prepared to replace them (rear main seal for example).

Alternatively, if you're definitely doing the work yourself anyway, and since you have had power steering fluid leaking and possibly onto the clutch for a while (I'm not sure if there is any external access where your leak was - the bell housing is usually mostly sealed other than maybe a view port or two) it could be worth taking things apart, and spraying down the clutch and the disc with brake clean in case it's just oil - but if the surface is slick and not grabby even after that, then it'd be new clutch time.

Brake clean is not the same thing as the B12 chemtool but any parts store should have tons of it.
 
Robert Ray
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Bummer, An improperly tightened clutch cable could be the problem, but it sounds as if you may need to replace the clutch. The leaking power steering fluid making the slipping worse and the clutch sounds as if it was the smoking brake smell you experienced. The Saab 900se is like no conventional American car as you and I know the transmission is under the engine not behind it. The main shaft of the transmission runs parellel and bellow the crankshaft. Be sure to look at the endplay of the clutch cable if it is too tight it could cause clutch slippage. Hope it's that simple but I fear the worst.
 
Joylynn Hardesty
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Update: We took it to the shop for a clutch replacement. After a test drive by me, they went back and put a new clutch cable on it for me, no further charge. The one done in our driveway was too tight/stretched?

Thank you everyone for your help!
 
Robert Ray
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YEA, I was thinking it was going to be a more expensive fix. Glad it was only the cable.
 
There's no place like 127.0.0.1. But I'll always remember this tiny ad:
the permaculture bootcamp in winter (plus half-assed holidays)
https://permies.com/t/149839/permaculture-projects/permaculture-bootcamp-winter-assed-holidays
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