Emergency heat, no fireplace, wood stove nixed by insurance

Propane/Natural Gas Heater
3KW of fossil fuel = 3KW of heat inside the house

Electric Heat Pump
3KW of fossil fuel at a power plant is converted to 1KW of electricity. The heat pump then takes that 1KW of electricity and pump in 3KW of heat. So heat pumps are not more efficient than a regular propane heater. (They are however better than an old fashion resistive heater, which would have only given 1KW of heat from the 3KW of fossil fuel at the power plant).  In some location like say Iceland that generate all of there electricity from renewable sources, it would be truthful to say that one is heating without any fossil fuel. As an average only 20% of the US grid is renewable so it would be more accurate to say that 20% of the heat pump would be from renewable.

S Bengi, I am surprised coal is 19%, so many other countries have a much higher figure.
In Australia everybody has piled money onto renewables, much of it from overseas which I dont like because the profit benefits dont stay in Australia.

Accordingly we have problems of congestion points, lack of transmission lines and other technology to spread the power around.
So the community has to finance new transmission lines for foreign owned companies to use!
It seems a pity.
BUT, with the right policies in place it has become an area of improvement, even with political parties who support coal because of jobs.
[and donations]

Cath Chirgwin wrote:If you want a long term solution you could look into geothermal heat. A ground source heat pump is a significant up front investment but you'll not be relying on fossil fuels once it's up and running and the ongoing cost is minimal.

Heat pumps are excellent tools in the right time and place. They require electricity to operate though. The OP is looking for emergency heat in the event of another failure of the electrical and natural gas grids. Unless the OP has a fossil fuel powered generator, a heat pump doesn't really help.

Thanks to all who chimed in with more help and good thoughts after my last check-in: Lorinne, William and Cath. Totally love these ideas, including the small guesthouse that could be our own Air B&B in a grid-down, kerosene (of course...so appreciated your thoughts), geothermal, etc.

At the moment I have 2 Big Buddy heaters, and a wall/freestanding heater that can be used with either gas or propane. I thought of plumbing that one into natural gas to start, and having the propane units as backup. A friend also gifted us with a BriteLyt lantern, which I know can produce heat as well as light. So, we are getting there!

The 5K generator would be the next step, plus a bigger propane tank.

And maybe by next year, we can do a wood stove if that still seems worthwhile...

I guess if everything went off in the summer, we would just sweat like pigs...so that is another frontier to navigate! LOL.

So grateful for everyone's input!

Pearl Allan wrote:

I guess if everything went off in the summer, we would just sweat like pigs...so that is another frontier to navigate! LOL.

Considering how many people in BC died last summer due to the "heat dome", that is a very serious frontier. It wouldn't be a bad idea to start a new thread: "Emergency cooling, no electricity..." or whatever words would describe this sort of problem. In BC during that week, it peaked our electrical system at a new high and I've heard of brown-outs in areas of the States on many occasions. Having a *lot* of water stored and some solar panels large enough to at least run a fan or two would be the low-hanging fruit, but planting trees now to shade areas of your property for future use seems good - start from seeds or cuttings to keep them cheep since you're unsure of how long you'll stay there.

It may sound looney, but maybe an air tower along the lines of what its used in the middle east can be built.
I use them, and I am aware they have experimented in Germany with them in plazas.
Basically they are tall hollow towers the cross section being will be about 10% of the size of the house, in the Middle East.
Mine are about 9 sq ft. because It took me 45 years to find that rule about the sizes.
Mine rise about 30 ft and draw from the lower part of the house.

In the hottest summers I always have a draft of moving air.  Yes it may be hot, but its moving.
In the Middle East they draw the air over ponds before it goes inside the house, so it creates a cooling effect.
No power is used to operate.

Modern take on wind catchers

thomas rubino wrote:Hi Pearl;
I think the Big Buddy is the way to go this winter.
Maybe get 2 tanks of propane, a 100 pounder and a smaller 20 pounder.
Run the big tank and if it runs out you have the smaller one to use while you get your large tank refilled.

Next year build an outdoor wood heater just outside the house and start cutting firewood.

I have a big buddy and have loved it for a few years. There are calculations you can do before you decide to get any sort of propane heater (my new personal choice would be a diesel heater, far, far more efficient). With a #100 tank, they HAVE to be transported standing upright per federal and state laws so you need a pickup to move them around.

Assuming that you run it 24/7, here's how it breaks down:

Propane produces 92,000 BTU per gallon

Assuming that you run the big buddy at max output, 18,000 btu

92,000 btu x
23.6 gallons, #100 tank =
2,171,200 btu output /
18,000 BTU output =
120.6 hours of heat /
24 hours = 5.0 days run time

Lowest setting, 4,000 btu

92,000 btu x
23.6 gallons, #100 tank =
2,171,200 btu output /
4,000 btu output =
542 hours of heat /
24 hours = 22.6 days of runtime.

Jay Angler wrote:@ Abe Coley and Bruce Fine - you've left out the critical part. If something happens while the "gorilla wood stove" is in use, the insurance company could refuse compensation even if whatever needed compensating had nothing to do with the wood stove. If the OP can afford to self-insure, that may not be an issue.

But, in many of those cases, as long as it really wasnt the woodstove... remove it from the property altogether before calling the insurance co. Unless there is a suspicius woodstove-shaped char mark, how would they ever know?


The risk of the stove itself being the issue is not zero. Caution is key.

The risk of a catastrophe so great that you have no ability to remove the stove is also not zero.. but seems pretty slight from my safe distance.



I think I would go with a trifuel generator, plumb it to the nat gas and use it to keep the existing furnace going... but also get some propane storage, so if the gas goes out you can at least run a few kw of spaceheaters... and once you have propane, maybe a propane heater. If you drive a gas car, a siphon and a jerry can would let you transfer fuel from the car to the generator..

Then I would collect the parts for the emergency woodstove.

Don't forget to store some wood... scrap lumber or disassembled pallets neatly piled as if for reuse seems much less likely to incite insurance inspector suspicion. Maybe not ideal fuel, but this is for emergencies..

Being dishonest with your insurer is a waste of an insurance policy - they will look for ANYTHING to disallow a claim.

We rescue and foster dogs, cats and wildlife. A point I made a special trip IN person, and sent an email regarding, with our home insurance. When an electrical fire in the attic (cause unknown but thought to be incorrect installation when home was new, the year before - professionally installed AND inspected by authorities) caused significant damage the first comment from the adjuster was "are these all your dogs?". When I explained that yes, at the moment, but not always as we fostered she shut down and informed us that we "had a problem".

Fostering dogs "raises our risk" and invalidated our policy was her statement. Obviously the dog(s) had NOTHING to do with a fire IN the attic - no matter, this alone was enough to effectively cancel our policy, according to her. When I explained there had been full disclosure, and provided the email and showed where I had insisted the agent write it ON the policy, she still tried to disqualify us, but eventually failed.  

I still wonder if this had anything to do with the outrageous delays we experienced - a 2 week repair did not even get started for almost three months and further nonsense stretched the repairs out for a total of NINE MONTHS!

There is absolutely no point in paying for insurance if you do not play 110% by their rules. Full and detailed disclosure, get permissions IN writing.  They do not operate on "forgiveness", not even a tiny bit!!!

Lorinne Anderson wrote:Being dishonest with your insurer is a waste of an insurance policy - they will look for ANYTHING to disallow a claim.

We rescue and foster dogs, cats and wildlife. A point I made a special trip IN person, and sent an email regarding, with our home insurance. When an electrical fire in the attic (cause unknown but thought to be incorrect installation when home was new, the year before - professionally installed AND inspected by authorities) caused significant damage the first comment from the adjuster was "are these all your dogs?". When I explained that yes, at the moment, but not always as we fostered she shut down and informed us that we "had a problem".

Fostering dogs "raises our risk" and invalidated our policy was her statement. Obviously the dog(s) had NOTHING to do with a fire IN the attic - no matter, this alone was enough to effectively cancel our policy, according to her. When I explained there had been full disclosure, and provided the email and showed where I had insisted the agent write it ON the policy, she still tried to disqualify us, but eventually failed.  

I still wonder if this had anything to do with the outrageous delays we experienced - a 2 week repair did not even get started for almost three months and further nonsense stretched the repairs out for a total of NINE MONTHS!

There is absolutely no point in paying for insurance if you do not play 110% by their rules. Full and detailed disclosure, get permissions IN writing.  They do not operate on "forgiveness", not even a tiny bit!!!

I think we have similar opinions about insurers.. what an annoying experience.

I absolutely agree they will look for anything, and they don't care if it had a damned thing to do with the problem. Their goal is to not pay. And, if I had insurance and the woodstove in question lit a fire, I wouldn't file a claim.. my fault, my problem.

But, I am reasonably confident that a woodstove that is no longer on the property, and has left no trace, is unlikely to be noticed...

D Nikolls: best hope the fire department does not show up before you get that stove "off the property" - they make reports on all fires, reports the insurance Co. are certain to look at.

That of course is assuming they were called due to fire, not storm damage, or flood...no matter, the illegal stove or any indication of it's presence would stil hoop you; along with ant stray photo's such as Google Earth that might "show" anything undeclared.

Lorinne Anderson wrote:D Nikolls: best hope the fire department does not show up before you get that stove "off the property" - they make reports on all fires, reports the insurance Co. are certain to look at.

That of course is assuming they were called due to fire, not storm damage, or flood...no matter, the illegal stove or any indication of it's presence would stil hoop you; along with ant stray photo's such as Google Earth that might "show" anything undeclared.

Yep, totally. The house happening to catch fire from an unrelated cause, while the woodstove is in place during a serious emergency, would definitely be the sort of thing that would end with voided insurance.

A fire dept report for something like a tree on the house, or a car smashing into the house, etc.. a nosy neighbour with a grudge.. lots of options!

Anyone facing this set of choices should think hard about their risk tolerance. But, having the woodstove in a shed does not mean you must use it, just that you have the option.


It's not a scenario I will face; I am self-insured. If I burn my tinyhouse down, and survive mostly intact, I will move into my camper, and build another one..

I grew up on a tiny farm 30 miles up a logging road from the nearest town and, while we mostly heated with wood, we also had a 500-gallon(?) propane tank for all of our light, cooking, and some heating.  I remember the big truck only coming out a few times a year to fill it.  (I don't think that it ever occurred to my mother to get a dual-fuel propane/gasoline generator; for power, we mostly used banks of 12v batteries that we hauled into town to be charged at a friend's place.)  As depending on only a single source for anything is a really bad idea, I would suggest getting such a setup if you are concerned about losing power/NG for an extended period.  (It might also be possible/legal to have a buffer tank for NG that is filled from the main line and feeds your house.)  You can also get tri-fuel propane/gasoline/natural gas generators for maximum flexibility.