Guerilla Gardening some Fruit Trees? Worth it?

Ben Zumeta wrote:I have lived in and worked in the densest cougar country on earth for most of my life. While I try to be alert for them, I do not fear or worry about them at all. I walk and water my trees alone at night often, and a fall or vehicle accident is far more likely to get me than any predator. If one is unwilling to accept the risk of walking in the woods due to fear of being attacked by a cougar, then it would only be consistent to never travel by car to a trailhead, or ever. If you see a cougar, it is not hunting you (you don't see the one that gets you;), so enjoy the fortunate and beautiful experience.

Agreed. Cars and people are far, far more dangerous than any predator in the forests. BUT, try telling that to a victim that has survived an attack or to someone who didn't survive.  

I don't necessarily think it is a requirement to "accept" the risk that was created by others. But at some point acceptance has to be confronted or else one has to leave the woods for good. I don't always think of cats or bears around every corner. But then again, I do. If I'm exploring a section of the woods that I'm not familiar with, I am cautious. I clap a lot. I bang my walking stick against trees. I stop frequently and look around, look up. I make a point not to crawl into holes or caves (something this guy did not realize was a potential hazard). I avoid walking around in or out of camp in the early mornings or late evenings. I don't walk around in the woods at night (anymore).

I've gone through the statistics. Strictly based on the numbers and the odds, you are absolutely correct. I have a better chance of getting injured driving my car or paddling my kayak to camp than actually being attacked or killed by a wild animal. Plus, the slim likelihood is additionally reduced given my size and height. Then again....they take down elk. Not usually. But they can and do.  

Circling back to the original post, I think it boils down to interacting with the immediate environment. Planting fruit trees draws in bears in some instances. I think it certainly would in my case. Likewise, having chickens or goats or sheep would bring an extra risk in drawing in cougars, especially given the external circumstances that have caused an increase in their population in this area (though in my immediate area I can't say they are over populated - but in relation to when I was a kid, they definitely are for my taste).  

Walking around at night in the woods I consider tempting fate. Running in the woods at any time for any reason - tempting fate. Some would say I'm foolish for going into the woods without bear spray. But I've tried taking it once and hated having to carry it. One day I might regret that. Yet, despite all of this activity in cougar country, there are only a handful of people who have been attacked in the PNW in the last 100 years and fewer still who have died. Then again, I do everything I can (aside from staying out of the woods) not to be included in that unlucky group.  

IH

Ben Zumeta wrote:I have lived in and worked in the densest cougar country on earth for most of my life. While I try to be alert for them, I do not fear or worry about them at all. I walk and water my trees alone at night often, and a fall or vehicle accident is far more likely to get me than any predator. If one is unwilling to accept the risk of walking in the woods due to fear of being attacked by a cougar, then it would only be consistent to never travel by car to a trailhead, or ever. If you see a cougar, it is not hunting you (you don't see the one that gets you;), so enjoy the fortunate and beautiful experience.

Thank you for the reminder.. 😊 I have anxiety and my mind often skips to the worst case scenario when I'm staring at the ceiling at night. But when I'm actually outside in the woods, I feel peaceful and calm and don't worry about predators besides being aware of my surroundings and being respectful of the power of nature. The exception is when the coyotes are nearby and they are making a ruckus howling and yipping at night- then I don't really feel very peaceful going outside in the dark.

I have to second Ben here, there is a ton of fear about cougars that is unwarranted.

"People all over the PNW are being killed and stalked by them (cougars, not bobcats)."  
"Washington is home to some 2,100 cougars; over the past century, the state has experienced two fatal cougar attacks. In the same period, all of North America has seen 95 nonfatal attacks and 25 fatalities."
https://www.sierraclub.org/sierra/fatal-washington-mountain-lion-attack-postmortem

I am in BC, Canada, where there are approximately 4,000 cougars; I live on Vancouver Island, where an estimated 600-800 live; the highest density in all of North America.  
https://www.discovervancouverisland.com/wildlife-on-vancouver-island/cougars/

The TRUTH is that even encountering a cougar around here is rare, and a negative encounter even more rare.  

"In the past 100 years, a total of five people have been killed by cougar attacks in B.C. (in comparison, bees kill upwards of three Canadians every year). All but one of these fatal cougar attacks occurred on Vancouver Island. During the same period, there were 29 non-fatal attacks in B.C – 20 of which occurred on Vancouver Island. The vast majority of these attacks were on children under the age of 16."  

If you meet a cougar:

   Never approach a cougar. Although cougars will normally avoid a confrontation, all cougars are unpredictable. Cougars feeding on a kill may be dangerous.
   Always give a cougar an avenue of escape.
   Stay calm. Talk to the cougar in a confident voice.
   Pick all children up off the ground immediately. Children frighten easily and their rapid movements may provoke an attack.
   Do not run. Try to back away from the cougar slowly. Sudden movement or flight may trigger an instinctive attack.
   Do not turn your back on the cougar. Face the cougar and remain upright.
   Do all you can to enlarge your image. Pick up sticks or branches and wave them about.
   Don’t crouch down or try to hide.
   If a cougar behaves aggressively, arm your self with a large stick, throw rocks, speak loudly and firmly. Convince the cougar that you are a threat, not prey.
   If a cougar attacks, fight back! Many people have survived cougar attacks by fighting back with anything, including rocks, sticks, bare fists, and fishing poles.

https://vancouverisland.com/about/facts-and-information/safety-guide-to-cougars/

What I tell folks is treat a stalking cougar like a foul mouthed teenager; advance, be aggressive, angry, use every swear word in your vocabulary (it has been proven cursing makes you "feel" stronger).  I also caution one about riding a bike in the bush; often the swiftness of a bike is enough to incite a cougars prey drive.

NEVER BACK AWAY
NEVER TURN YOUR BACK, OR OTHERWISE LET THEM THINK FOR A MOMENT YOU ARE EASY PREY.  
NEVER, EVER, NO MATTER WHAT, NEVER RUN!
(Next time you see a house cat, crumple up some newspaper, and toss it, then watch how this triggers their prey drive!)  

DO NOT ACT LIKE PREY, IF YOU DO NOT WANT TO BECOME PREY.

With a bear it is the opposite.  Treat them with respect, like that grumpy old uncle at family gatherings.  Do not antagonize, engage or otherwise interact; slowly, calmly, gracefully, retreat and remove yourself from his presence - don't be thrown off by a false charge, this is fairly common.  Never run (they will outrun you in a heartbeat!), or act aggressive with a bear, UNLESS or UNTIL he gets "handsy", then nail him with everything you have, and keep fighting until he takes off.

I am also a firm believer of packing an air horn to scare off threatening critters, sadly, they are not very effective against threatening humans; those may need stronger measures.

Jenny Wright wrote:... lots of native crabapples so I wouldn't feel bad planting another type of crabapple in place of an invasive tree...

Except that apples (crab or otherwise) are not native to North America to begin with.
But the sentiment is good.

there are 4 species of crabapple that are considered native to north america: M. coronaria in the great lakes region, M. fusca in the west, M. ioensis in iowa/the prairies, and M. angustifolia in the low-altitude southeast. while it is thought that all apples originated in kazahkstan, it’s unclear when or how these species got here, but they’re definitely endemic now. (though some may now be considered endangered).

Thomas Dean wrote:

Jenny Wright wrote:... lots of native crabapples so I wouldn't feel bad planting another type of crabapple in place of an invasive tree...

Except that apples (crab or otherwise) are not native to North America to begin with.
But the sentiment is good.

http://nativeplantspnw.com/pacific-crabapple-malus-fusca/

5 species of crab apple are native to America. We have Malus fusca. No apples, yes crab apples. I was also surprised by that fact when I first learned about them. ☺️

Jenny Wright wrote:
http://nativeplantspnw.com/pacific-crabapple-malus-fusca/

5 species of crab apple are native to America. We have Malus fusca. No apples, yes crab apples. I was also surprised by that fact when I first learned about them. ☺️

greg mosser wrote:there are 4 species of crabapple that are considered native to north america: M. coronaria in the great lakes region, M. fusca in the west, M. ioensis in iowa/the prairies, and M. angustifolia in the low-altitude southeast. while it is thought that all apples originated in kazahkstan, it’s unclear when or how these species got here, but they’re definitely endemic now. (though some may now be considered endangered).

Hmmm... I might have to eat crow.  Thank you for the food for thought.  I was pretty convinced they were all asian... I could be wrong.

On a side note... we have some sort of "apple" around here that I can't figure out.  Small, round, green "apples" Trees have spines.  Leaves are not shaped like any apple I recognize.  Now I'm wondering if perhaps it is M. coronaria.  

got any pics? are the leaves kind of ‘cut’ like hawthorn can be? i feel like the line between those two can seem a little blurry (i.e. i’ve found thorny trees with hawthorn-y leaves that i swear are crabapples of some sort. but the two aren’t all that far apart phylogenetically, so maybe some crossing does happen.

Thomas Dean wrote:

Hmmm... I might have to eat crow.  Thank you for the food for thought.  I was pretty convinced they were all asian... I could be wrong.

Define native? How long ago have those species been in America? We're starting to find evidence that humans migrated here from Asia far earlier than we had thought, and humans have a habit of travelling with foods they like and spreading them!

greg mosser wrote:got any pics? are the leaves kind of ‘cut’ like hawthorn can be? i feel like the line between those two can seem a little blurry (i.e. i’ve found thorny trees with hawthorn-y leaves that i swear are crabapples of some sort. but the two aren’t all that far apart phylogenetically, so maybe some crossing does happen.

No photos, sorry.  I'm in the same boat - I thought they were hawthorn, but then I keep coming back to the conclusion that they must be some weird apple.
I was going to play with grafting this spring to see if I could put standard apple stock on them.  I've never grafted before.  

Jay Angler wrote: Define native? How long ago have those species been in America? We're starting to find evidence that humans migrated here from Asia far earlier than we had thought, and humans have a habit of travelling with foods they like and spreading them!

I love this line of thinking.  "Native" is a flexible term - depends on perspective.  BUT, my thought was that apples were brought with European settlers when I made my initial comment.  But your comment is probably right on track.