Help me fix this land, what would you do?

Thekla McDaniels wrote:Maybe I am repeating what I said here, maybe I said it elsewhere, but I once used an auger to drill 12 inch diameter post holes almost 4 feet deep.  I scratched and abraded the polished sides, filled the holes with wood chips…

If nothing else, it increased the surface area for water to penetrate, and the wood chips provided habitat…

I hope it’s a fun project for you…

Interesting, put them in vertically filled with chips to absorb then turn to organic matter. It would make the water go away quicker, hmmm, so these are the pipes with holes, but instead of horizontally, you put them in vertically? Or what are these post holes? I'm curious to get a full picture of what you did

Kris Nelson wrote:

Thekla McDaniels wrote:Maybe I am repeating what I said here, maybe I said it elsewhere, but I once used an auger to drill 12 inch diameter post holes almost 4 feet deep.  I scratched and abraded the polished sides, filled the holes with wood chips…

If nothing else, it increased the surface area for water to penetrate, and the wood chips provided habitat…

I hope it’s a fun project for you…

Interesting, put them in vertically filled with chips to absorb then turn to organic matter. It would make the water go away quicker, hmmm, so these are the pipes with holes, but instead of horizontally, you put them in vertically? Or what are these post holes? I'm curious to get a full picture of what you did

I've read of this concept and do a variation of it. Essentially, you're just digging a hole which water can fill up, but to stop if from collapsing, you fill it with whatever biodegradable material you can access cheaply. I have too many rocks on my land to use a post-hole digger to do this. I dig a shallower, larger diameter hole and fill it with punky wood, veggie scraps, dead animals, animal bedding etc. This attracts free-range worms which help to loosen the surrounding clay and biodegrade the fill. I top up the fill when I see it getting below grade. This does wonders in my dry summers for keeping young trees alive if I build them 3-6 ft from the baby tree.

If you did a layout plan for garden beds and drilled a line of these holes 3-5 ft apart up-slope from the beds, there's a good chance they'd keep the beds dryer by infiltrating the rain, but the deep water, would hold the moisture during dry spells reducing the need to water.

Also, with heavy clay, I'd be very careful with tilling, unless I'm using the tiller to incorporate organic matter like fall leaves or wood chips. My friend with heavy clay soil tills without adding carbon and it tends to turn into concrete.  

Jay Angler wrote:If you did a layout plan for garden beds and drilled a line of these holes 3-5 ft apart up-slope from the beds, there's a good chance they'd keep the beds dryer by infiltrating the rain, but the deep water, would hold the moisture during dry spells reducing the need to water.

Thanks for the explanation. I've read of this before in my research for improving clay soil. It seemed laborious and takes a long time to get result, so I was opting to fill in the area instead

I may do it in the first field with the issue, I'll mull it over. The second field doesn't have that issue as it slopes on both narrow sides from the middle, while the long end starts higher in the west and slopes slightly downward as it goes east. I can't see where there is water build up right now since the whole area is covered with dead tall grasses. I will need to rake up a lot to see if there are issues. I suppose that is required or best to do... alternatively just leave the ground cover of dead grasses/straw and build hugels or beds and see if the base earth has issues getting rid of the water... hmmm... what do you think?

Jay Angler wrote:

Kris Nelson wrote:

Thekla McDaniels wrote:Maybe I am repeating what I said here, maybe I said it elsewhere, but I once used an auger to drill 12 inch diameter post holes almost 4 feet deep.  I scratched and abraded the polished sides, filled the holes with wood chips…

If nothing else, it increased the surface area for water to penetrate, and the wood chips provided habitat…

I hope it’s a fun project for you…

Interesting, put them in vertically filled with chips to absorb then turn to organic matter. It would make the water go away quicker, hmmm, so these are the pipes with holes, but instead of horizontally, you put them in vertically? Or what are these post holes? I'm curious to get a full picture of what you did

I've read of this concept and do a variation of it. Essentially, you're just digging a hole which water can fill up, but to stop if from collapsing, you fill it with whatever biodegradable material you can access cheaply. I have too many rocks on my land to use a post-hole digger to do this. I dig a shallower, larger diameter hole and fill it with punky wood, veggie scraps, dead animals, animal bedding etc. This attracts free-range worms which help to loosen the surrounding clay and biodegrade the fill. I top up the fill when I see it getting below grade. This does wonders in my dry summers for keeping young trees alive if I build them 3-6 ft from the baby tree.

If you did a layout plan for garden beds and drilled a line of these holes 3-5 ft apart up-slope from the beds, there's a good chance they'd keep the beds dryer by infiltrating the rain, but the deep water, would hold the moisture during dry spells reducing the need to water.

Also, with heavy clay, I'd be very careful with tilling, unless I'm using the tiller to incorporate organic matter like fall leaves or wood chips. My friend with heavy clay soil tills without adding carbon and it tends to turn into concrete.  

I like the idea of  using an auger to drill deep holes into the clay.  6" or 8", or if you can find someone with a tractor with a post hole digger auger attachment they might be 12" or wider.  Go as deep as you can, of until you hit good soil.  If you could space them evenly when you will them with wood chips and top soil you could plant something in each hole.  Even if you don't till in wood chips and just do the top soil these holes would allow the roots to go deeper, faster.

And, is there something you could use the clay for elsewhere?  Making berms, a raised circle around trees to hold water when you do have to water in the dry times, making pottery?  Just a thought.

Michael Fundaro wrote:]
If you could space them evenly when you will them with wood chips and top soil you could plant something in each hole.  Even if you don't till in wood chips and just do the top soil these holes would allow the roots to go deeper, faster.

And, is there something you could use the clay for elsewhere?  Making berms, a raised circle around trees to hold water when you do have to water in the dry times, making pottery?  Just a thought.

I had issues trying this though I planted gooseberries and currants, not trees. My plants stayed alive but were stunted and didn't grow. I suspect it had to do with the woodchips and stuff breaking down and starving them of nitrogen. Either that, or maybe water just sat too long in the holes.?  I finally dug them up after a few years and moved them to new homes.

Jenny Wright wrote: I had issues trying this though I planted gooseberries and currants, not trees. My plants stayed alive but were stunted and didn't grow. I suspect it had to do with the woodchips and stuff breaking down and starving them of nitrogen. Either that, or maybe water just sat too long in the holes.?  I finally dug them up after a few years and moved them to new homes.

Yes, when I have done this, the 'compost hole' has been 3-5 feet away from the plant - the idea is to encourage the roots to travel through the clay and take any goodies they want, but not to have them growing in it. I can easily imagine water pooling in the compost hole in some clay soils and drowning the plant roots. That said, in places I've used a lot of wood-chips, I will sometimes water with 10% Liquid Gold (human urine) to help with the nitrogen issue. I don't do that anywhere that the run-off could contaminate ground water - there has to be plants/mycorrhizae  nearby that will access the wood-chips and utilize that nitrogen.

Kris Nelson wrote:

Interesting, put them in vertically filled with chips to absorb then turn to organic matter. It would make the water go away quicker, hmmm, so these are the pipes with holes, but instead of horizontally, you put them in vertically? Or what are these post holes? I'm curious to get a full picture of what you did

I just drilled holes and broke up the polished surface on the sides of the holes, and filled with chips and other plant material.

I was thinking you might do this under your filling operation.  And the clay soil that came out of the holes could be mixed in with the layers that went on top.

I was thinking it might create more of a transition rather than a bottom or pan or impermeable layer beneath your fill.

Sometimes water collects because compaction creates an impermeable layer, and beneath the compaction layer you find anaerobic conditions.

If you DO have some of that going on, the drilling usually goes beneath the impermeable layer and brings aerobic conditions.

I don’t know if your situation HAS an impermeable layer, just saying it works where compaction has developed.

Create a small pool in lowest area.   Rack up cut stuff and compost it.  

I bury all paper that comes in mail, keep out plastic windows, and shiny ads.   I bury them in the yard to build up soil.

get garbage cans, or plastic ones, drill 3 one inch holes in bottom of trash cans.  Load up with 100% greens or all the brown material, put lid on and park in sun.  Easy composting.

Michael Moreken wrote:Create a small pool in lowest area.   Rack up cut stuff and compost it.  

I bury all paper that comes in mail, keep out plastic windows, and shiny ads.   I bury them in the yard to build up soil.

get garbage cans, or plastic ones, drill 3 one inch holes in bottom of trash cans.  Load up with 100% greens or all the brown material, put lid on and park in sun.  Easy composting.

Simple and to the point, on my way there. I've been composting since last fall, and I will be making the corner the collection pool/pond area for everything else to drain into and not be left sitting to slowly seep into the soil everywhere. The trash can and let sit seems like it would be easier and work better than my attempts to mix greens and browns and get the heat started in my compost piles. Thanks.

Just throwing in my 2 cents, after reading through this thread.

Thanks for posting the 'problem', it has inspired some very interesting exchange! (Thus already productive)

Were it my patch, I would dig the cat tail bog deeper and make an actual pond there. Since it's a relatively small area in total, I would use the drier time over the summer to regrade the whole field while digging the pond, and create a stronger slope towards the pond, while spreading the soil removed to make it deeper back over the surrounding field.

That would enable me to have a nice biodiversity focus while planting something like arrowroot on the margins...I could leave or dig and eat the roots as I chose later. I would make at least part of the pond margin into a boggy zone that I would then plant with cranberries and blueberries. Maybe some elderberries.

I'd also get a few dumps of wood chips to mix into the clay while the regrading operation was happening.

If I removed the willow, I would be sure to chip it so the pieces dry and die faster. I would not put any logs or branches into my hugel beds until they were definitely dry enough not to resprout.

Kris Nelson wrote:I have two small fields. The soil is quite heavy in clay.

You need to provide some additional info, like size of the property, climate, your preferences and amount you are willing to spend.
Like if you have no funds to spend, suggesting that you dig a pool and start fish farming wouldn't be a good idea, right? In the same time, if you want to do it, you will be able to put the "clay" you dig out to raise the rest of the land.
Also, mushrooms (as you raise them essentially off the ground, so they don't depend on soil quality, and you can use waste to raise the land).
There is a road nearby as I can see, so make sure pollution is low. Or else try building storage space or farm store there - again, depends on funds you have. Or at least dig ditches and make sure water goes off your land, not on from the road and to your land.

Erik van Lennep wrote:Just throwing in my 2 cents, after reading through this thread.

Thanks for posting the 'problem', it has inspired some very interesting exchange! (Thus already productive)

Were it my patch, I would dig the cat tail bog deeper and make an actual pond there. Since it's a relatively small area in total, I would use the drier time over the summer to regrade the whole field while digging the pond, and create a stronger slope towards the pond, while spreading the soil removed to make it deeper back over the surrounding field.

That would enable me to have a nice biodiversity focus while planting something like arrowroot on the margins...I could leave or dig and eat the roots as I chose later. I would make at least part of the pond margin into a boggy zone that I would then plant with cranberries and blueberries. Maybe some elderberries.

I'd also get a few dumps of wood chips to mix into the clay while the regrading operation was happening.

If I removed the willow, I would be sure to chip it so the pieces dry and die faster. I would not put any logs or branches into my hugel beds until they were definitely dry enough not to resprout.

Thanks for the tips, that was one of my ideas I originally had (to get rid of the tree, and gradient/slope the land to the corner where the cattails are), and adding what others have said about wood chips and digging it out to be a bigger pond

There is a drainage of some kind from under the driveway, water wasn't coming out last summer since it was dryer than normal, but this spring it was higher last week, so it seems water comes out of there.





My new strategy idea was to dig trenches on the sides from the road downward to the low end, and make two pools/ponds on both sides so that the water goes there instead of flowing to the middle and low end where I made the rectangle last year which is now flooded. And also elevate it with wood chips maybe I'd have to see how the trenches/ditches and ponds work out to keep the water away first I think.

Kris Nelson wrote:

My new strategy idea was to dig trenches on the sides from the road downward to the low end, and make two pools/ponds on both sides so that the water goes there instead of flowing to the middle and low end where I made the rectangle last year which is now flooded. And also elevate it with wood chips maybe I'd have to see how the trenches/ditches and ponds work out to keep the water away first I think.

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And some inspiration- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86gyW0vUmVs
Chinampas

I'd put an edible plant around the "pond", so you don't need to mow it. Personally I'd do a hedge row of rhubarb so I can mow it, and not worry if some leaves get hit.