Tooth remineralization quandary

I absolutely love this conversation since I am very curious about the idea of remineralizing teeth. Earlier this year I listened to a talk between Marjorie Wildcraft of the Grow Network and Dr. Michelle Jorgenson of TotalCareDental.com. They mentioned the use of horsetail (equivitum hymale, in particular) and cell salts to remineralize teeth and avoidance of glycerin in toothpaste. Look for mineral carriers such as bentonite clay or calcium carbonate for tooth powders. Dr. Jorgenson also made a strong and compelling argument against the use of root canals. She said tooth removal would be better than a root canal.

When I previously researched the idea of remineralization, I came to recognize the importance of vitamin K2 in particular for rebuilding teeth and bones. Even if you get plenty of vitamin K, you may be deficient in K2. It is mainly found in organ meats.

Earlier this year I came across information about the herb bloodroot, which is supposed to be excellent for general oral health and possibly the prevention of tooth decay. So perhaps it could play a role in remineralization as well. Warning:  I am not an herbalist, and it is my lay understanding that the herb is toxic and should not be ingested. But I have used it as tincture rinse with no adverse effects.  

Finally, rinsing your mouth with a baking soda rinse after meals is a recommendation I've heard suggested by a couple of alternative health experts. I have found that it is especially helpful after eating highly acidic foods like pineapple.

Brian Stretch wrote:FWIW, I hadn't been to the dentist for well over 2 years (was trying to wait out the Covidiocy) but went because I couldn't decide if I was having sinus or tooth issues (it was sinus). My teeth had built up an impressive amount of "scale", enough to show up clearly on X-rays. But... even with the ultrasonic scrubber used to blast off the scaling my teeth were much less sensitive than the last time I was there. The big difference? I went (mostly) carnivore a year and a half ago. Ditched the last of the high-oxalate plant foods thinking low carb good and got a surprise when oxalate crystals started dumping. Oxalate is a common plant toxin that binds to minerals but especially calcium. BAD for teeth and bone. Bad in general. Mitochondrial toxin. Bad bad bad. Worse for some than others. Very bad if you're on the autism spectrum. I suspect that some of us have pre-agriculture genetics, agriculture not making its way to Britain until 2,000 years ago via the Roman Empire, and will not thrive on modern plant foods much less the plant-derived industrial food-like products that are so prevalent today. New world plant foods tend to be particularly bad.

Anyhow... removing high-oxalate plant foods from your diet will help to heal your teeth.

I attended a talk by Sally K. Norton on oxalates. And while she did speak against high-oxalate foods in the strongest terms, she did add that you can use an acid to counter the effects. So if you want to have a spinach salad, add some vinegar or lemon juice.

Janice Carey wrote:I had an open tooth that I thought I'd try remineralizing.  It allowed an infection to the root of the tooth.   I did not want a root canal. I made it so it was a root canal or take out the tooth. I now have a slight swelling in my jaw right that area.  Pretty sure it is unhealthy,mmy conservative dentist doesn't see anything wrong.  No one can find a problem.  I wish I had crowned it right away and had not listened to the remineralization hype.  

Yes 👍 home remineralization does not work for even a small cavity, unfortunately. Once the enamel is gone, your chances of doing that are gone. Take care of your teeth ASAP, in general.
The tooth paste doesn’t really matter, though sweetened fluoride filled pastes are crap.

However responding to the primary post:

Though you may not want save this tooth, you can *help* (but not completely) prevent both future cavities and osteoporosis by making sure your Vit D3 levels are mid to upper range of normal (test to be sure, it’s dangerous to over supplement), and take Vit K2 as directed on bottle- NOT Vit K as previously posted. A good well researched brand that contains both forms of Vit K2 is Omega Via. That website answers all your questions too. Really cool. 👍

In addition, stopping all sugars, desserts, sweeteners, very sweet dried fruit like raisins (better to eat fruit fresh), etc is very helpful. Vinegar erodes enamel quickly too. Lemon too, but is significantly ameliorated by olive oil and other fats in say, dressing, coating teeth. Lemon has a buffer in it. .

Oxalates’ negative effects can be counteracted two ways: by cooking, and by eating a fatty calcium source along with it, like cheese (which in fact tatted very nice with these foods).
When one eats a calcium-rich fatty food with oxalates, the calcium binding occurs in the intestine and gets excreted without being able to form kidney stones and so forth. This will not work as well for someone who is genetically predisposed to kidney stones however (not common). Those folks should not eat any oxalates.

“A good well researched brand that contains both forms of Vit K2 is Omega Via. That website answers all your questions too.”

Sorry forgot the links:

This is the OmegaVia information site on Vit K2:
https://omegavia.com/vitamin-k2-part-2/

Their Vit K2 is on the Innovix Lab website:
https://innovixlabs.com/products/full-spectrum-vitamin-k2/

No I am not in ANY way affiliated with them. Just like their products, which are incredibly well tested and researched. 😁

In terms of an additional dental tip, after flossing use hydrogen peroxide as a mouthwash.

Mario Lazetti wrote:In terms of an additional dental tip, after flossing use hydrogen peroxide as a mouthwash.

Careful about the *concentration*  of hydrogen peroxide. The 3% solution in the brown bottle is OK, but too much can also hurt your teeth. Hydrogen peroxide is the main ingredient in all teeth whiteners, so if you want your teeth to be whiter, yes, that's good... in small amount. Also, don't swallow: It is a poison, even the "food grade" kind. [It can cause stomach problems.]
https://www.healthline.com/health/hydrogen-peroxide-teeth-whitening#takeaway
For that clean feeling after brushing, I prefer baking soda. It has just the right amount of grit to brush off daily plaque, and you are certainly right about flossing. I have to do the flossing after every meal because some teeth are misaligned and stuff always gets caught in the nooks and crannies. I floss before brushing: brushing cannot remove stuff from the nooks and crannies.

Angel Hunt wrote:I attended a talk by Sally K. Norton on oxalates. And while she did speak against high-oxalate foods in the strongest terms, she did add that you can use an acid to counter the effects. So if you want to have a spinach salad, add some vinegar or lemon juice.

Yes, but you're still taking damage. It's strictly for people who refuse to give up toxic foods.

Sally's latest interview with Dr. Anthony Chaffee is really good. Her description of high tartar buildup and eye gunk fits with what happened to me. I had several large crystals come out of my eyes when I started dumping.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bl5OngSFaHw&ab_channel=AnthonyChaffeeMD

Her book is to be released late December. I've had it on preorder for over a year.

I haven't done anything to remineralize beyond going carnivore and supplementing unrefined salt and Lugol's 2% iodine (4 drops currently, relatively low dose for my weight, suspect that long term high dose is problematic but undecided on correct long-term dose). I seem to need more salt than average. Coffee might be counterproductive but I drink it anyhow (the good stuff, burr grinder, etc) and at least I drink it black. I do try to buy local pasture-raised meat and eggs not least because of the K2 content but will eat the cheap stuff. Critters convert K1 from grass into K2. I have big, well armored teeth so outside of rotting out my wisdom teeth with Mountain Dew I don't get cavities and I quit soda long ago.

Brian Stretch wrote:

Angel Hunt wrote:I attended a talk by Sally K. Norton on oxalates. And while she did speak against high-oxalate foods in the strongest terms, she did add that you can use an acid to counter the effects. So if you want to have a spinach salad, add some vinegar or lemon juice.

Yes, but you're still taking damage. It's strictly for people who refuse to give up toxic foods.

Sally's latest interview with Dr. Anthony Chaffee is really good. Her description of high tartar buildup and eye gunk fits with what happened to me. I had several large crystals come out of my eyes when I started dumping.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bl5OngSFaHw&ab_channel=AnthonyChaffeeMD

Her book is to be released late December. I've had it on preorder for over a year.

I haven't done anything to remineralize beyond going carnivore and supplementing unrefined salt and Lugol's 2% iodine (4 drops currently, relatively low dose for my weight, suspect that long term high dose is problematic but undecided on correct long-term dose). I seem to need more salt than average. Coffee might be counterproductive but I drink it anyhow (the good stuff, burr grinder, etc) and at least I drink it black. I do try to buy local pasture-raised meat and eggs not least because of the K2 content but will eat the cheap stuff. Critters convert K1 from grass into K2. I have big, well armored teeth so outside of rotting out my wisdom teeth with Mountain Dew I don't get cavities and I quit soda long ago.

I followed the link, thanks Brian for mentioning that oxalates could be a factor to consider. I watched the whole video, despite frequent interruptions for commercials nearing the end of the interview, reminded me of watching movies on tv in the 70s…..

Interesting information, but kind of off topic to pursue oxalates in depth on this thread.  It probably deserves its own dedicated thread.

(Switching to Brave browser will eliminate the commercials from videos, by the way...in addition to supposedly giving one more privacy from Big Brother...)

Here is an article on nano or not for hydroxyapatite:  https://orawellness.com/nano-or-no-no-hydroxyapatite-particle-size-matters/

They also sell plain hydroxyapatite (I use it to make my own tooth powder, with salt, baking soda, clay, xylitol, and essential oils), plus other things for natural dental care.

My more holistic dentist put hydroxyapatite into a deep cavity when replacing a mercury filling.  I asked if he had seen other teeth that deeply filled heal.  He said he had.  I asked how long it takes.  He said 2 weeks.

Mine is still sore, and it's been months now, but I haven't given up hope.

I HAVE had a small cavity (brown coloration on the side of a molar) heal, just by using my tooth powder (brush after every meal) and reducing the amount of sugar and starches I eat, and eliminating grains, for the most part.

(I don't remember how long that took, but I was happily surprised)

This may help you find a dentist:  https://iabdm.org/location/

Forgot to mention I've read on a heal-your-child's-cavities type of forum, that rinsing with salt water after eating was something one mother found helped her family the most.

I think one of the main issues is that eating acid-containing foods (or sugary/starchy ones) will reverse the normally alkaline pH of the mouth, so the baking soda or salt rinse helps reverse that, back to alkaline.

At least, that's my understanding of part of the problem. The other is having the building blocks to create/heal teeth, including protein (to provide a matrix in which minerals sit), and minerals, including calcium, silica, magnesium, boron, and other stuff (ditto for bones/osteoporosis/osteopenia--again, at least, that's my understanding.)

Anyway, lots to do your research on.

Please come back and let us know what happened, so we can learn from it!  

Thanks, Alina, for the reference on nano particles of HA (hydroxyapatite). I suspected that based on what I knew of nano-zinc oxide.  I guess I can go ahead and generalize on nano particles being a hazard , unless I see specific information to the contrary.

Now, about grains.  It was my understanding that their contribution to tooth decay was through the physiological route, the phytates present and their role in mineral metabolism, that they make calcium (and maybe phosphorus) unavailable, causing a demineralization process as the body extracts the needed calcium for life processes from bones and teeth.

Fermenting and or sprouting, I thought, made grains into wholesome food.  Is that not the case?  Does anyone know the physiological basis why grains are warned against while trying to remineralize teeth?

Due diligence  time 😊.

I did order toothpaste from risewell, because I had seen a recommendation for it.  It has not yet arrived.

I checked the link supplied in a prior post (many thanks, Alina) to learn about nanoHA, and no, I don’t want that, which took me back to risewell’s website, to see if what was coming is nano or not.  

I emailed risewell and await a reply about nano or not in their product.

Of course the process that followed took me between the two websites.  

https://orawellness.com is a wonderful site, with a choice between shop or learn, a wealth of information under the ‘learn’ heading.  Learn  about eg, plaque itself, its life cycle, how at some stages it’s an ally, other stages it harbors pathogens.

The information that cinnamon essential oil decreases  the numbers of the unwelcome members of the oral microbiome.

By contrast, the risewell site offers recommendations from bloggers who are also extolling their latest cosmetic finds, eyeliner and bronzer and “barely there” eye shadow.  Good hard information (by my definition) is difficult to find if indeed it is there, like the nano or not particle size.

I have a lot more exploring todo at the orawellness site, but so far my feeling is that I will find a wealth of solid information, exactly the information I need in the process of trying to save my tooth.

And I can buy source identified non-nanoHA to add to my own remineralization powder, unless I want to skip that step for now and just buy their products while I am in the intensive phase of this process

I'm just adding anecdotally to this thread. I've done mostly conventional dental work but my teeth are not a huge problem area for me in the main.

I had metal fillings out about 12 years ago with conventional but careful dentist. I could have mercury issues but overall, glad I did that.

I have one crown that I am not fond of. It broke about 15 years ago but wasn't bothering me so I asked the dentist to leave it alone. Lately I am realizing that it must be remineraling. It has a smooth surface that used to be rough and there is More of it. It is nearly whole tooth size.

I currently clean fast 20 hours most days which is helping my overall health and also seems to be good dental wise. We are getting to where we are eating about 50% what we have produced, meat and veggies though I still eat some "junk food" but when I stay away from sugar and wheat, I am much better.

Interested in the remineralizing tooth paste and will look into that. I need to cut out the commercial stuff which I only use about 3 times a week now.

I have mostly my own teeth. I had a bad issue with a back upper molar a couple years ago and instead of another root canal, I just had them take it out. My teeth were close together so any movement has only been a good thing for me. So far, excellent decision.

A brief status report:
this is not as simple a process as I would like!!! 🥴

There are the considerations of the environment in my mouth, and the calcium phosphorus balance/metabolism which is hormone mediated (D and K) and then probably related to what’s my mineral status overall, and my general health.

And then there are the anti-nutrients that like phytic acid disrupt that mineral balance .

And yet another consideration is that some foods and I think that book specifies foods that are acid (pH lower than 7) such as wine and many fresh fruits.  The acid softens tooth enamel .  The book “cure tooth decay” advises not to brush while the enamel is softened by such foods as it erodes and or abrades the softened enamel.

So, I am trying to maintain the right conditions in my mouth for secondary dentin to form.  I imagine the process like a crystal growing, the ions fitting together because of their shade and electrical charges…. just my personal image after so much research.  The dentin likely has other components.  It just is taking me a while to assimilate so much information.

Anyway, I think the process proceeds in an alkaline environment.  I received my risewell toothpaste, and when I read the ingredients, glycerin is included.  One thing I need to fact check is whether glycerin really costs the teeth in such a way that the minerals in the saliva are prevented from attaching to the tooth surface.  This week I should be receiving my package of HA, and I plan to make a new batch of tooth powder and incorporate that in place of the dolomite and calcium carbonate.  I’ll have to see

Soooo, I have read a LOT, and am struggling with how to put it all together.  Unfortunately, the book puts forth ideas backed by convincing research, but doesn’t put forth definitive answers.  

For example, there isn’t ONE method for eliminating or decreasing the phytates, different cultures soaked and fermented their grains and pseudo grains and seeds by different methods, so it’s trial and error.  Nixtamalize corn, but not rice or wheat or millet.  Ferment wheat, soak rice, and save some of the soaking water to increase the phytase in the next batch of soaking water.

I’ve begun to wonder if I could not just buy some phytase.

As far as the tooth goes, it is still there, I don’t notice a change in the one sharp edge, and nothing bad has happened!😊

Thekla McDaniels wrote:A brief status report:
For example, there isn’t ONE method for eliminating or decreasing the phytates, different cultures soaked and fermented their grains and pseudo grains and seeds by different methods, so it’s trial and error.  Nixtamalize corn, but not rice or wheat or millet.  Ferment wheat, soak rice, and save some of the soaking water to increase the phytase in the next batch of soaking water.

Easiest way is to go carnivore. Let herbivores take the hit. Just watch out for oxalate dumping while you adjust. Best to take it slow.

I had a rotten tooth in the back and it started to poison me,so I took oregeno oil pills for over a week and it cured it right up

Pooks Paxton wrote:I had a rotten tooth in the back and it started to poison me,so I took oregeno oil pills for over a week and it cured it right up

I've used oregano essential oil for a sore throat and it was no joke. Stung like I had swallowed a bee but cleared it up fast.

Pooks, how’s the tooth now?

I am declaring this project a success. The tooth sensitivity of last fall went away.  I was eating soaked, or fermented grains, and following the remineralization food guidelines, i e  a non-industrialized diet, and brushing two or three times a day with hydroxyapatite tooth powder or paste, not rinsing it out after I brushed.

I was using an oral irrigator water jet type thing from Oral Breeze.

In May I went on a trip. I was away from home for three weeks, and could not follow my regimen.  

I noticed there was just a little tiny bit of sensitivity.  I am looking at an up coming 12 to 18 months of  vagrancy.  I do not want to face a dental emergency having no familiarity with the available resources.

I went to the local dentist (the good one, not the bad one ).  He x-rayed and compared it to the eight month old x-ray.  There was less of the demineralized shadow that they call decay.  He did the exam with the pick, you know where they poke it into every surface.  If it is softer and it’s sticky and it’s sensitive, they also call that decay. There wasn’t any where it had been softer, sticky and sensitive last fall.  To me that is proof of remineralization.

I told him I was going on the road for a year to a year and a half and I didn’t think I could keep up my regimen. I asked him what was the status of the tooth and should I schedule an extraction from the oral surgeon that I know in Colorado.  Or what did conventional dentistry have to offer.  He said if it was him, he would fill it, and that’s what he did. He filled it without any drilling (proof of a sound surface.).

No anesthesia because it wasn’t sensitive.   I think he painted the inside of the cavern in my tooth with fluoride and he used a filling substance that he said emits fluoride.   His belief is that fluoride suppresses decay.

I am not crazy about fluoride and probably I’m not as sensitive as many people are. I do know it is considered a “compliance substance”, that human populations become more tractable and manageable if they’re on fluoride. I don’t know about that , but I don’t think that’s gonna be a problem with me. 🤣

I want to say I think if I could have stayed in one place I could have managed over time to fill in that cavern through remineralization. And beneath that filling, the same cavern exists, so, theoretically I could recommence the remineralization process in the future.

I also want to say you might notice I am being very careful not to call the hole in my tooth a cavity.  And maybe everyone already knows this but when demineralization happens whether because of diet or microbial action, they call that decay but there’s no cavity there until a dentist drills one.  When they drill it, they have to create a boid that when filled, the material will be retained.  They drill a big cavity that is shaped so that the inside is bigger than the opening on the surface of the tooth that we see.  The more material is removed, the more difficult to remineralize!

As a result of my experiment, I highly recommend the oral wellness shine remineralizationpowder. I already was a great fan of the Oral Breeze oral irrigation system.  They have a product that can be attached to the spout in your bathroom or kitchen.  There’s a quick coupling fitting to take it on or off.  And another product which can be “permanently” installed in your shower, before the shower head with a valve that you can turn the oral irrigator on or off. What I like about these products is you can regulate the force of the water jet and the temperature.
I got an implant in about 2007 (back upper molar) which extends into a large sinus.  When ever I had any kind of a cold or runny nose, there would be a little bit of drainage, coming down around that implant and crown.  After I got the oral irrigator, no more drainage or discharge around it anymore.  

Elsewhere, people have asked about the gumline, receding gums and periodontal disease. I think that the oral irrigator has prevented periodontal disease for me.  I have not had any infection or inflammation around my teeth, and , when dentists have checked, they have said I do have “deep pockets”. (That’s not the kind with lots of money I can assure you). Deep pockets are a risk for periodontal disease.  They provide a place where  micro organisms can grow and flourish, protected from brushing and such.  

The oral irrigator I think flushes the pockets clean. I think the pressure stimulates circulation similar to a massage. I think the warmth of the water also stimulates circulation. I can’t recommend it highly enough.

I want to thank everyone for their contributions and helping me on this discovery process and let you all know that for now, I have closed out the experiment.

I’m an ardent believer now, in tooth remineralization through diet and hydroxyapatite tooth care products.

Thanks for posting an update, Thekla!  You've inspired me to dust off the water-pik type device my husband bought years ago and only used a few times.  I have a few deep pockets myself (and I sincerely wish I could say they are the financial kind!) and I think this will help me keep decay and gum issues at bay.

Take Epsom salt baths. You probably don't need more calcium, but need to balance your calcium to magnesium ratio. Most people are calcium dominant, and magnesium is arguably a more important mineral. In addition, getting enough 10am-2pm sunshine depending on your location (some locations the UV rays are heavily filtered based on the angle of the earth, higher latitudes you will need more). And also a high quality vitamin K2 supplement to help prevent calcium being deposited in the walls of your arteries, and storing it in your bones and teeth where it belongs. Drink acidic beverages through a straw. Don't avoid acid though, helps with digestion, just don't bathe your teeth in it and put it down the gullet...

AND FYI I have had dentists tell me I had cavities, and then later it is shown they are gone. Teeth are not kitchen knives, they are living things, being constantly bathed in a mineral bath of vitamins, saliva, soda, food, and more. That's a terrible analogy. And if they are like kitchen knives, then Vitamin K2 is an electrochemical plating method that adds layers of metal via a chemical process. It would be like saying skin is like paper, once it's cut, it's cut!! No...

If I were you I would weigh the benefit of trying to heal yourself vs the potential damage of the healing not working. If the tooth is a goner what do you have to lose? Can it spread to other teeth? Have you gotten a second opinion?

You could even have your saliva tested for vitamin K2 levels.

Source: DYOR and I'm 30 and never had a cavity.