Your advice on guns please (Only non-political discussion)

I have a nice 20 guage Mossberg 500 Super Bantam.  I love this gun because it fits my body and gets the job done.  I'm a rather petite, stumpy-armed female and trying to "stretch-out" to make a shot was not enjoyable.  Especially when you consider how long and heavy your average 12 guage is. 

Whatever your choose, make sure the gun fits your body and you'll be much happier with your purchase.

We talk about this in a podcast:

http://www.richsoil.com/permaculture/371-podcast-054-jack-spirko-modern-survivalism/

Mustang - This is good to know.  I didn't think about my small size, great point.
I'm going to look into your suggestion.

Thanks for the link Paul 

Back when I was young I had several guns, shotguns, varmint rifle (220 swift), 22 (Weatherby of all things!) a 30/30.

I loved the 30 / 30. I liked to load my own shells too. Enough power to take down something large, but wouldn't remove your shoulder.

If I were to have deal with coyotes, I probably would want a varmint rifle. The 220 Swift is a very hot cartridge, but then again, I could hit a wood chuck at over 600 yards. I used to make money from farmers who wanted to get rid of them because the damage the holes would to to their livestock. Now, I prefer an electric fence with bacon... the coyotes just think they are going to die. 

I don't hunt anymore though I don't have problems with those who do as long as they don't shoot me in the process... after all, I kill our own animals for food.

One thing, make sure you have a lock for the trigger, or a gun vault. I lost a friend when I was a teenager because he and another kid where playing around with a loaded shotgun. Don't ever assume kids, or even young adults, will do the right thing around a gun.

just my two cents.

If you are going for simplicity and utility you cant go wrong with the Rossi matched pairs. Now before you rossi haters come out of the woodwork know that they have come a long way from what they used to be, they are solid, accurate, single shot weapons with a low price tag.

for the same price as a Remington 870 shotgun [$270] you can get four calibers. rossi has SEVERAL matched pair sets and if you have a favorite caliber you can probably get it an a matched pair. My suggestions would be the .22LR/12 gauge combo, and the .223/.30-06 or the .223/.308.

I chose these because:

.22: good for cheap close range pest control. you can get 500 rounds for $20 at walmart.

12 gauge: great versatile shotgun shell. You can get everything from birdshot [tiny pellets good for hinting birds] to buckshot [larger pellets good for hunting small deer] and even slugs and sabots [good for hunting larger deer] The 12 gauge is a low pressure round with a max range of around 100 yards, less for smaller shot.

.223: a great varmint round for longer range than a .22 with enough punch to down a coyote. You can find military surplus 5.56x45 rounds relatively cheap too.

.30-06: is a great larger game round out to longer ranges [the .30-06 is used in accuracy competitions out to 1000 yards!] It was used by the military in WWI and WWII and was phased out for the .223 as the battle rifle round. the .30-06 was still used as a sniper round until it was replaced by the more compact .308 or 7.62x51.

the .30-06 is the same bullet size as a .308/7.62x51 with a more compact case so the user could carry more rounds on them. Because of this, you can buy a shoulder adapter to change your 30-06 rifle to shoot .308 or 7.62x51

The adapter is prone to popping out on semi automatic weapons but for single shot rifles such as the rossi it will work just fine.

as for pistols the Heritage Rough Rider .22lr/.22 magnum pistol covers all of your pistol needs. It is more accurate than any of my semi automatic .22 pistols. It can shoot the snake shot rounds without jamming unlike some semi automatics, so it is a great trail/snake gun.

if you were to buy everything here [the 12 gauge/.22lr combo, the .223/.30-06 combo, the heritage rough rider .22/.22magnum, and the .30-06 to .308 adapter you would spend less than $500. The Rossi combos cost around $150, the heritage combo is around $150 and the adapter is around $50

Total you are looking at $84 per caliber with two .22 platforms. You will certainly get used to the big bang the more you shoot and always wear eye and ear protection [I have hearing loss because I didn't use protection]

You said that you didn't want to hunt so you could save $200 and get a 12 gauge/.223 combo and the rough rider and bring your cost down to $75 per caliber.

Hope this helped!

Unless I have missed a post or two in the thread, you still haven't explained what you expect to be shooting...

There are several cartridges that are all called .22 What most are probably referring to is the .22 LR (long rifle).

Although there are several posts in favor of the .22 (LR?), IMHO this is much too light a caliber if you want to be as humane as possible!

The .22 LR would be good for squirrels, but on anything larger than a cat, a heart lung shot will likely not kill cleanly except at very short range. You can kill fox and groundhog with a 22, but if you want to be sure it will die and, especially, that it will not suffer needlessly, only with a head shot, which you can likely not guarantee!

It has also been suggested that a shotgun would be less safe than a 22, because of the pattern spread, but you need to remember that a 22 theoretically can travel over a mile! Even off a ricochet, well over half a mile!

There are a lot of options, but if you are sure you will never want to take up hunting, I would recommend a medium bore shotgun or, if you can shoot it easily, go for the 12 guage.

If you do decide to go for a rifle, I wouldn't go smaller than the 223 or, even better, one of the .243s.

Jami, Mr. Innovation is spot on w/ his advice on the Rossi Matched pairs.. The options are limited for switching barrels.  I picked up the youth version for a "backpack" gun for hunting grouse in the BWCA.  Skip the Springfield M6... The "doomers" have picked up the trail on that gun, and typically gouge to all ends w/ that gun.

cheers

Thanks so much ♥ Mr. & all - great advise!

It is true I don't want to hunt, just protect.

Good info in this thread, I'm printing my copy now.

since you aren't going to be hunting you can bring down your costs alot by just getting a 12 gauge shotgun.

I have a mossberg maverick 88 shotgun with a 20" barrel. It cost me $200 out the door [tax and everything included]

here is a link to some online:
http://www.google.com/products/catalog?q=maverick+88&hl=en&safe=off&prmd=ivnsfd&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&biw=1024&bih=462&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=shop&cid=17572199641993513728&sa=X&ei=rTdgTo_XCoPjsQK7zOUU&ved=0CGQQ8wIwAQ#start=10


I also bought some adapters so that I would be able to shoot different calibers of ammo as well.

you can find them at
http://shotgunadapter.com/

these adapters can allow you to shoot 20 gauge, .410 caliber/.45 long colt, .357/.38 and even .22lr!

they are fun to shoot but they don't have as much power due to the wider barrel.

since you are using it just for protection I would say just the plain maverick 88 will do you just fine. [or you could get the .20 gauge and .410 adapters so you could shoot all common loads]

They used to be crap guns but since mossberg bought the company they are great guns [look for the mossberg stamp on the receiver]  I have fired 3000+ rounds through mine without a single hiccup.

1)
for use in rural lands: use a revolver (cannot get stuck with dust. mud, etc.)
2)
if you carry a gun be prepared to shoot first

  You mean before the skunk does....

I'm afraid you have the wrong thread, probably the wrong forum altogether.

The advise given here is for protecting ones veggies and homestead livestock.

Thanks anyway

I gotta go with a open choke shot gun for the best farm weapon. A foster style rifled slug will drop around 5 inches at 100 yards. That's one oz of lead moving at 1500 feet per second. Bird shot for smaller critters, and hunting. I like the Mossberg 500 pump. They are cheap, around 100$ used. Take a beating, I did not clean mine for 14 years. They are what the Army uses. A 18 year old G.I. can be mighty inventive on ways to break things. And IMHO they rain supreme as home defence weapon. If something goes bump in the night I always grab the shotty. If I run out of rounds I can always use it as a club. You can diy a slug from any shot shell there are videos on the youtube.

I would vote for a 22 caliber rifle in the action of your choice.

A bolt action, lever action or single shot requires a bit less maintenance than an automatic would be easier and safer for a novice (spouse or child) to use.

Most bolts, levers and single shots are capable of functioning with 22 shorts, 22 longs, 22 CBs, 22 long rifles and 22 caliber shotshell ammunition.  Automatics are generally limited to one cartridge length, most commonly 22 long rifle.

A 22 caliber rifle is inexpensive to learn to use not to mention great fun.

Ammunition is common.  In this area you can usually find it in most convenience stores, gas stations, groceries and maybe a box or two in most pickups.

You can purchase a large amount of 22 ammunition economically. 

It is easy to carry and store a large amount of ammunition.

And for versatility, you can feed, defend or entertain yourself!


If you opt for a shotgun or a centerfire caliber rifle, purchase ear plugs or muffs.  When you learn to use it, use the hearing protection and wear glasses ( sun, shooting or prescription ).  The ear and eye protection with help with what most people consider 'recoil'.  If you need to use a gun in the field, you don't notice the noise or muzzle blast but shooting recreationally will bother the ears as well as the pocketbook on large caliber or gauges.

I'd also recommend ear protection for shooting a rimfire rifle.  It will allow you to concentrate on shooting accurately without anticipating the noise each time you pull the trigger.

Another add on to purchase regardless of what you choose, would be a universal cleaning kit.  It should include a cleaning rod, oil, patches and a bore brush.  The universal kit will work on pistols, rifles (including rimfire) and shotguns.  In most cases all you need to add is whatever caliber or gauge bore brushes you need.

Good luck with whatever you choose.  You are going about it correctly by doing the research and as someone said in an earlier post, shoot different guns if you have an opportunity and that will help you make an educated choice.

I carry all the time here a .45 caliber, double barrel, muzzle-loading pistol-- but that's only because its the most handgun I can legally get in Slovakia without having a gun license, which test requires I understand and speak Slovak quite a bit better...  I have a variety of guns at my mother's house in America, but my only farm experience with guns so far was from my internship one summer in Tennessee.

Shotguns work-- the farmer I worked for heard something bothering the chickens, took shotgun, and one shot later dead skunk.  On the other hand, that requires that you either have the shotgun with you all the time, or are standing by the house and can grab it quick.  I was told I could shoot at the deer eating the garden there-- I saw them several times on my way to do chores, but the gun was in the house, and by the time I was back, they were gone.

In my view, a pistol is best, because you can always have it with you-- good if you need to protect yourself.  I always carry mine up to the field, it weighs about a pound, but I have a nice front pouch holster (which also conceals it if I'm in town), and I don't even notice I have it on most days.  There's no way I could hit a critter with it 100 yards away, but if a wild boar or wolf heads towards me I have hope at 25 yards I could hit it, likewise if I stumble upon a fox or weasel after the chickens.

A gun in the hand is worth two back home in the safe.  Carrying a rifle or shotgun around while doing other chores seems like it would be a real burden, even if it is slung over one's shoulders, but maybe for others it isn't.

Some sort of repeating mechanism seems to me a must.  Even if you're good hitting a paper target at the range, hitting a moving, potentially dangerous critter is a different matter-- I'd hate to be fumbling in my pocket for some .22LR rounds if the wildcat, intruder, etc. decided to keep coming after a missed shot.  Whether its a revolver, semi-auto, pump, level, bolt-action, doesn't seem as much the issue as long as you can get quickly a second, third, etc. shot.

Once I get my gun license here, I may well be carrying a 9mm if I can import mine from the U.S.  CCI makes rat/snake shot for 9mm.  I had some and it cycled the action flawlessly in my Glock.  It seems to me that keeping a shotshell in the chamber with the magazine full of regular bullets would be a good solution for farm use-- if you see a rat or snake you can get it, if something bigger comes along shoot twice "double-tap".

On the issue of shotguns and neighbors, birdshot is the safest thing if you have neighbors nearby.  I remember as a child being on a road 200 yards from where people stood shooting skeet.  The individual birdshot pellets, being very light, quickly succumb to air resistance-- there are good physics reasons for this which I can't recall at 11PM.  There's no hope of breaking a clay pigeon 100 yards away, though from what I've read shot could travel up to 400 yards-- if shot up in the air like artillery.  Obviously the smaller the shot, the sooner it looses energy, but at the same time, the less range you have.

You know what your saying is so true.... and I would eventually put down that shotgun because I see something that needs fixed and then I would forget about it - 
Or as you say never have it around when I need it.  I like the idea of being able to carry it in a holster on my person with my autistic son around.

And I definitely need semi-auto.

You know they make some super air pellet riffles - semi-auto, with clips, scopes and laser light.  Great for in the city vermin shooting, but they are a lot of $$$

This is one that I would like to have for around the yard.

"The "Taurus Judge ® " is so named because of the number of judges who carry it into the courtroom for their protection. Capable of chambering both .410 2-1/2" shotshell and .45 Colt Ammunition, this amazing combo gun is ideal for short distances - where most altercations occur, or longer distances with the .45 Colt ammo. We have finely tuned the rifling to spread the shot pattern at close quarters or to guide the .45 cal. bullet to the target. Fully customized with fixed rear sights, fiber optic front sights and Taurus Ribber Grips®, the "Taurus Judge" is one decision-maker that lays down the law. "

http://www.taurususa.com/product-details.cfm?id=200&category=Revolver&toggle=&breadcrumbseries=

Shawn Bell wrote:
This is one that I would like to have for around the yard.

"The "Taurus Judge ® " is so named because of the number of judges who carry it into the courtroom for their protection. Capable of chambering both .410 2-1/2" shotshell and .45 Colt Ammunition, this amazing combo gun is ideal for short distances - where most altercations occur, or longer distances with the .45 Colt ammo. We have finely tuned the rifling to spread the shot pattern at close quarters or to guide the .45 cal. bullet to the target. Fully customized with fixed rear sights, fiber optic front sights and Taurus Ribber Grips®, the "Taurus Judge" is one decision-maker that lays down the law. "

http://www.taurususa.com/product-details.cfm?id=200&category=Revolver&toggle=&breadcrumbseries=

that would be a damn fine rabbit hunting gun loaded with .410 bird shot

if I could shoot straight with a pistol that is unfortunately I shoot better off the hip with a long gun than braced up with a pistol

For the accuracy impaired, I suggest using a laser sight.  Point and click.

hehee

I could just see the reaction of the fish and wildlife accuracy to someone hunting squirrels or bunnies with a laser sighted revolver

Get a Mosin Nagant.  Your threats/problem critters will be instantly dispersed into a fine mist that will drift over your fields and help fertilize them. 

Why spend a fortune, get what you like and are comfortable with. If you're good with a handgun it will kill a varmint as dead as a rifle or a shotgun will. Go to a good gun shop and talk to the owner. Anybody else will recommend their favorite gun which may not suit you at all.

I can't see any good reason for owning a farm gun with an effective range more than 100 yards or so, unless you own some serious prairie type acreage!  A friend of mine shoots feral goats and foxes on a large farm - he took a fox at 450 yards or so.  Longer shots on a small farm (especially one with a food forest) just seem ... improbable to me.  That being said, if you own more than one (as I do) well, you can take your pick.

I don't own a shotgun, but I think if I had to choose one gun for the farm, it would be a double barrel 12ga.  In Australia, it is essentially illegal to own a pump or semi auto shotgun, but I think if you miss with 2 shots, you probably wouldn't make it with 3 or more (eg: you're probably getting less accurate from adrenaline and recoil, and the critter is going to be moving rapidly by then).  If you've got a thing for rifles (like me) then the 30-30 would be my pick.  I currently don't own one - I traded up for a 45/70.  Fun, but the novelty of getting knocked around wears off soon enough

Phil H wrote:
... I think if you miss with 2 shots, you probably wouldn't make it with 3 or more (eg: you're probably getting less accurate from adrenaline and recoil, and the critter is going to be moving rapidly by then).

Its really true.  I was with a friend in the city (in the U.S.) and there was a poisonous snake in his driveway which he wanted killed.  I shot it with my .380 and the first shot hit, but didn't kill, just badly wounded.  The next 6 shots, from 10 feet away, left a bunch of marks on the driveway but totally missed the snake.  (I have mixed feelings now about shooting poisonous snakes, especially since the ones in Georgia and the one species here aren't exactly deadly poisonous, but it is an example of how adrenaline really ruins ones aim...)

freedomlives wrote:
Its really true.  I was with a friend in the city (in the U.S.) and there was a poisonous snake in his driveway which he wanted killed.  I shot it with my .380 and the first shot hit, but didn't kill, just badly wounded.  The next 6 shots, from 10 feet away, left a bunch of marks on the driveway but totally missed the snake.  (I have mixed feelings now about shooting poisonous snakes, especially since the ones in Georgia and the one species here aren't exactly deadly poisonous, but it is an example of how adrenaline really ruins ones aim...)

yikes! how many of those shots went through the neighbors windows on the richochet?

Brice Moss wrote:
yikes! how many of those shots went through the neighbors windows on the richochet?

I was thinkin that too. Hopefully his friend's driveway is dirt like mine!

He lives more in the suburbs.  But at the angle of the shot most of the energy was dissipated into the asphalt driveway, as could be seen by a bunch 1/2" holes left in it, so the bullets would have been just tumbling into the woods behind his house.  I was taking into consideration which way the bullets might go when I shot.  The police did come, as some neighbor was bothered by the gunshots, but the officer just re-affirmed our right to shoot snakes, though I got the feeling he would have preferred to have been called out to shoot the snake...

This year a huge, black snake crawled through our yard, which terrified my wife, but I realized that he was probably the reason that I had stopped seeing any rats around, so I left him alone.

Not many rattlesnakes where I live now but I did encounter them in Wyoming and S.C. those that I did dispatch were with a shovel or a hoe. "One whack one kill", no richochet to worry about.

They do make a bird shot version of the 22 caliber.  It is great for snakes.  I understand that they do NOT work in most automatic rifles/pistols.

First shotshells and shotgun shell through a rifled barrel.  The tighter the rifleing and/or the longer the barrel, the quicker the shot spreads.  A derriger will give you a tighter pattern than from a rifle.  Once I shot a shot shell from a very accurate .22 rifle and the shot would not penentrate leaves at 10 feet.  The Judge was not designed for hunting, but for large targets at close range.

I could not agree more with getting guns that you are physicaly confortable with.  What fits in my hand will not fit in yours.  Also layer your options, a pistol and holster you can carry all the time and a long gun that rides with you in your truck/tractor/wheelbarrow.

Personaly, where I live, my choices for a long gun would be a lever action .22 that would take shorts or longs, or a .410 double barrrel "snake charmer" with shot on one side and slug on the other.

Jamie,
When you do make a firearm selection or if you chose not to I'd be curious as to what influenced your decision.

Sure Robert.

I am in the process of finding land, but as soon as the dust settles from that big life change I'll be making my list of 1st, 2nd & 3rd weapon acquisitions and buying the first right off.  probably a handgun first, because I have experience with those. 

I've never shot a rifle or shotgun so between now and then I'm going to line up some hands on experience.

I appreciate all the wealth of personal experience accumulated here in this thread.  This is one to-do item I wouldn't have been able to tackle without this information.  Thanks everyone!

I'm jealous that you have so much to choose from Jami!

Hand guns are almost illegal here (you can own one provided it's under .40cal, although I think there might be some exceptions) and you can only use them at an approved pistol range. Semi automatic actions are also essentially illegal, as are pump action shotguns.

I definitely think you should go to a big gun shop and try out how the weapon feels and if possible rent it and shoot it some.  I bought a bantam 20 gauge shotgun for my wife (home defense) since she could hardly pick up my 12 gauge.  I thought about the super bantam but I wanted one that was compatible with the other mossberg 500 parts (which my 12 gauge is)  Apparently a lot of the parts of the super bantam are not interchangeable with the normal 500 parts, the bantam parts are.

The bantam stock is very adjustable, and since it is a youth shotgun you can mail them a letter (comes with the gun) and they'll send you a full size stock.  Basically a gun you can grow with.  Obviously in your case you don't need that, but it could be a good thing to have if you ever sell or give away the gun to someone that has a different build than yourself.

BTW my wife is about 5'2 for comparison.

Super  I'm 5'2" too.  That's great to know....

I was talking with an old family friend last night and he said he had a .22 pistol he would give me, so I guess it's onto #2 the shotgun.  He said his .22 even has a holster so that solves that.

Sidebar - Silly Girl Story:  I just got done buying a big hunting knife and a nice switch blade knife.  The later for my purse and the other for the car, I put a flint for starting fires and compass in the pouch too (preparedness don't you know).  Anyway, when I got home and took out the switch blade type I couldn't close it, I couldn't even figure out how (zero instructions on package). I watched youtube vids, but all the guys closed it so fast I couldn't 'see' what they were doing.  So I Googled my knife, found an 800 number for an online company that sells good quality knifes like mine.  Called them, and the lady on the phone had to go ask the tech guys how to close this knife, no obvious button-thing.  We were both laughing  but the product tech guys came through and I easily closed my new knife, while on the phone.  Yea, no more finger nail clippers for cutting things when away from home! 

I own a number of guns and can offer the following
1) A .22 is good for a number of uses and is inexpensive to fire
2) I also have a 12 gauge pump shotgun which is very versatile
3) For hunting I have an Enfield P14 in .303 British and an SKS with scope

Hi Jami. Am wondering what you decided? Seems late now but I would want to know where you live, what you need to kill, if you could kill and how much you are willing to practice.

The gun or guns you need need to match the use. A 22 is too small to kill most animals except in the hands of an expert, and then not always.
You need to decide what you want to shoot before buying the gun. Unless you're a collector or an avid hunter, the type (rifle, shotgun, pistol) of caliber is more important than the brand.

Jami, I dont like guns and here in Australia we have a different approach to them.
I was a target shooter for many yeras though.
But what I dont undestand, is why move to the bush and fel the need to shoot wild life/
Is the wildlife an issue I just cant see?
Thanks

John C Daley wrote:Jami, I dont like guns and here in Australia we have a different approach to them.
I was a target shooter for many yeras though.
But what I dont undestand, is why move to the bush and fel the need to shoot wild life/
Is the wildlife an issue I just cant see?
Thanks

I can't speak for Jami, but the people that shoot wildlife here, do it to eat.  I live in a rural area where a lot of people don't have much money, so they hunt for food.  There are also lots of people here that hunt because they like venison, or rabbit, or squirrel. I own lots of guns, but I personally don't hunt anymore.  I am part of a very small minority here.  Most people hunt, and kids here get excused from school to go deer hunting every season.

I don't understand when you say you don't like guns, but were a target shooter for many years?  It seems like you must have enjoyed shooting then?  My personal experience with people that don't like guns is that they don't have experience with them, so they understandably have some anxiety until they become more familiar, much like people using a chainsaw or another tool that is potentially dangerous, but isn't if used correctly.

I am not sure if they still make it, but the perfect homesteader gun was a over/under single shot affair that had a 20 guage/22.

I also like the .410 as an all around gun. Throw a slug in it and go deer hunting, or dispatch a cow, but you can toss in scatter shot for home protection or smaller animals. They even make a shot gun pistol!