• Post Reply Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
permaculture forums growies critters building homesteading energy monies kitchen purity ungarbage community wilderness fiber arts art permaculture artisans regional education experiences global resources the cider press projects digital market permies.com private forums all forums
this forum made possible by our volunteer staff, including ...
master stewards:
  • Nicole Alderman
  • r ranson
  • Anne Miller
  • paul wheaton
stewards:
  • Mike Jay
  • Jocelyn Campbell
  • Miles Flansburg
garden masters:
  • Dan Boone
  • Dave Burton
  • Steve Thorn
  • Greg Martin
gardeners:
  • Shawn Klassen-Koop
  • Pearl Sutton
  • Mike Barkley

feminism and sexism

 
Posts: 2679
Location: Phoenix, AZ (9b)
182
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator


Somehow feminism has been misinterpreted to mean "man haters". Do some feminists buy into that? Yep. It's too bad. But not all of them do. And it's ALWAYS been that way.



I wish to go back to my first post. I don't think all women are man haters. I also don't think all feminists are man haters. In fact, my first embedded image is a feminist that thinks other feminists are doing a disservice to feminism.

I think there are still serious problems that need to be addressed in the world of sexism against women. And I think for every real problem there are a dozen red herrings or exaggerations. And, at the same time, there are also some serious problems of sexism against men that the general public is generally unaware of.



That was poorly worded on my part. This comment was a general comment and not directed at you, Paul. I don't believe you hold this view.

I'm saying some in the feminist movement could be called "man haters" and there is a fairly vocal contingent of mostly men and some women from outside of the feminist movement that consider feminists in general to be "man haters". I offer that feminism was a movement to move toward equality of men and women.

Here's the thing on the images you imbedded - From my own personal perspective (this is my way of saying "I think") there could be other readings of them.



For instance the image where the man rejects a fat woman (so politely! Does that really happen?) and the other woman jeer at him and call him shallow and a jerk or a "typical male". I can envision a scenario where we replace the other women with a crowd of men. They might say things like, "Yeah - no fatties", "can't believe she even thought she had a chance with you", "eat a salad". There've been "No Fatties" signs posted at beaches - the image ALWAYS shows a fat woman with the red circle/slash logo.

In the second scenario about the woman rejecting the man for his height - again replace the crowd of women with a crowd of men. I can see a crowd of men mocking the man and commenting derisively on his height - in fact I've seen this occur several times amongst younger men. Men discriminate against men who are short - in sports, in business, as part of their social group. I've also seen countless tall GIRLS mocked by boys.



For the statistics provided - off the top of my head I can come up with a few reasons why those statistics might be skewed as they are:

--Workplace deaths: More men work dangerous jobs. Many women have been excluded from these jobs - by unions, by corporate policy that says that the substances they deal with are not safe for women's reproductive health (this was used in the asbestos industry - funny - that same company didn't mind exposing men to asbestos, and they certainly didn't have any problem installing it in hundreds of thousands of homes and businesses across the US - homes and businesses where women and their reproductive organs resided or worked), by the refusal to provide access to equal facilities (issue in fire departments for awhile), by physical restrictions which may or may not be necessary, etc. Quite honestly, I think the union reaction came from seeing the "Rosie the Riveter" types doing just fine at the jobs men assumed they had a solid hold on.

--Chance to be sentenced to death for the same crime: This could be caused by a few assumptions: the view of a jury that women are more gentle and may be "reformed" and/or she was somehow justified in the crime. Men are seen generally as more violent than women (a perception held by both men and women). Men may be more likely to be repeat offenders and therefore warrant a harsher sentence. These are my guesses.

--Jail time served for the same crime: The statistic doesn't break it out into first offenders and repeat offenders - that may influence the difference. Also, there is a tendency to punish people of color more harshly than whites of either gender.

--Number of homeless men: This is a VERY true statistic. From my own personal experience working with the general homeless population in Phoenix and the homeless veteran population specifically - what often occurs is that shelters are set up for women WITH children first and single women second. This is to get them off the streets because women and children on the street are often preyed upon and are the targets of general or sexual violence. The shelters are segregated to keep possible predators away from women/children (remember after Katrina and all the folks holed up in the superdome - there was a rash of violent sexual crimes in that environment). So the fathers of homeless families often choose to be homeless so that their wives/girlfriends/kids can have shelter. A lot more money goes to shelters for women and children than for shelters for men - a LOT more. This needs to be addressed. It's not doing any good to have folks on the street no matter what gender they are.

--Male Prostate v Female Breast Cancers - I think the death statistic may be indicative of how compliant the patient is. Women are usually more compliant patients than men - in general women are more concerned about their health than men. As for public spending, breast cancer may indeed be one of the few diseases where a "women's issue" actually receives more funding than a disease that affects statistically more men - like heart disease. Autoimmune disease affects statistically more women (60/40 split) - yet funding has been slow to come. It's starting to pick up now. Also cardiologists are FAR more prevalent than say rheumatologists. In Phoenix there may be a dozen rheumatologists and well over 100 cardiologists.

So that's my personal reaction to a few of the images and videos presented. My initial reaction was - yeah, but.... Where you see that women may exaggerate sexism towards them, I see many of those statistics regarding sexism towards men as exaggerating things.

I think that one thing all of this highlights is that we all need to tune in a little more to both sides of the equation. Paul - I think you have valid points in that society at large (both men and women) tend to dismiss men's issues in several areas because they are seen as "unmanly". For the guy being abused by a woman - both men and woman may dismiss the victim as not being able to stand up for himself/weak. This is similar to those who say a woman was raped because of the way she dressed. Both victims are "asking for it" - him by appearing weak/not fighting back, her by inciting lust.




 
steward
Posts: 1748
Location: Western Kentucky-Climate Unpredictable Zone 6b
104
  • Likes 3
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Has anyone read the two books by Louann Brizendine "The Male Brain" and "The Female Brain" ? A couple of quotes :

“Women have less direct relationship to anger...When a woman "bites" her tongue to avoid expressing anger, its not at all socialization. A lot of it is brain circuitry. Even if a woman wanted to express her anger right away, often her brain circuits would attempt to hijack this response, to reflect on it first out of fear and anticipation of retaliation. Also, the female brain has a tremendous aversion to conflict, which is set up by fear of angering the other person and losing the relationship. Instead of triggering a quick action response in the brain, as it does in males, anger in girls and women moves through the brain's gut feeling, conflict-pain anticipation, and verbal circuits.
Scientists speculate that though a woman is slower to act out of anger, once her faster verbal circuits get going, they can cause her to unleash a barrage of angry words that a man cant match.
Typical men speak fewer words and have less verbal fluency than women, so they may be handicapped in angry exchanges with women.
Often when I see a couple who are not communicating well, the problem I see is that the man's brain's circuits push him frequently and quickly to an angry, aggressive reaction, and the woman feels frightened and shuts down.”
― Louann Brizendine, The Female Brain

"The distinct brain structures and hormonal biology in the male similarly produce a uniquely male reality at every stage of life. Yet as I considered writing The Male Brain, nearly everyone I consulted made the same joke: "That will be a short book! Maybe more of a pamphlet." I realized that the idea that the male is the "default model" human being still deeply pervades our culture. The male is considered simple; the female complex.

Yet my clinical work and the research in many fields, from neuroscience to evolutionary biology, show a different picture. Simplifying the entire male brain to just the "brain below the belt" is a good set up for jokes, but it hardly represents the totality of a man's brain. There are also the "seek and pursue" baby boy brain, the "must move or I will die" toddler brain; the sleep-deprived, deeply bored, danger-seeking teen brain; the passionately bonded mating brain; the besotted daddy brain, the obsessed-with-hierarchy aggressive brain and the fix-it-fast emotional brain. In reality, the male brain is a lean mean problem-solving machine."

Many things about us are like that quote from Jessica Rabbit :

"I'm not bad . I'm just drawn that way."
 
gardener
Posts: 633
Location: Soutwest Ohio
127
books food preservation homestead cooking rabbit tiny house
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I found another few relevant items.



This fellow has a bit of a NSFW mouth on him, but some of his postings are interesting and bring up valid points. He did a six part series on 'toxic feminism' that focus' on the Misandry openly shown by many self-identified feminists. The video here is just talking about how the Bechdel test is not a good measure of what displays women in meaningful ways rather than just arm candy.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xo5AvsD2HDM [/youtube]

 
Jennifer Wadsworth
Posts: 2679
Location: Phoenix, AZ (9b)
182
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
 
wayne stephen
steward
Posts: 1748
Location: Western Kentucky-Climate Unpredictable Zone 6b
104
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
In the mid-1980s I read a book called "The Hazards of Being Male" . This book gave me a new perspective on masculinity.

A quote:

"The struggle of the male to learn to listen to and respect his own intuitive, inner prompting is the greatest challenge of all. His conditioning has been so powerful that it has all but destroyed his ability to be self-aware.”―Herb Goldberg

This book did not refer to the male emotional makeup as his "feminine side". Just a part of being a man. Nothing wrong with femininity. I just think it minimizes the male emotional pattern to call his feelings the feminine side of him. I like the goal of being a whole person , not creating more inner partitioning. The book also points out the pattern that most men have of giving up close male friends when they marry. Their only intimate conversations are with their wives. Women on the other hand maintain close friendships with other women and discuss their inner lives together. To this day , if straight men do that it is commonly referred to as a "Bro-mance" hinting at latent homosexuality.

Kurt Vonnegut said this :

"Freud said he didn’t know what women wanted. I know what women want. They want a whole lot of people to talk to.What do men want? They want a lot of pals, and they wish that people wouldn’t get so mad at them."
 
Posts: 1692
Location: Zone 5 Wyoming
98
bee chicken duck forest garden greening the desert homestead kids pig
  • Likes 5
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I wonder how many of you fear for your safety on a regular basis. I wonder how many of you are blamed for that fear because you were too nice, shouldn't have smiled, shouldn't have put yourself in that situation, etc. I wonder how many of you have had bloody noses, constant obscenities yelled at you, been groped and otherwise degraded. I wonder how many of you have spent days crying because you barely escaped being raped.

I have experienced all these things. Some of them on a regular basis. My crime, you might ask, is leaving my house a woman. I am not safe at my work, the UPS guy showed me that. I am not safe on the street, that has always been obvious. I'm not safe going onto military installations (random check? WHY do I ALWAYS get random checked? Oh, because it's not random). Recently I learned I am not safe in my little country neighborhood. The new neighbor showed me that in the worst way possible.

So there are angry women out there. Women who earn less money and still have to tolerate being treated like an object put on Earth for men. These women have the right to be angry. I have the right to be angry. It clouds a persons ability to be objective to mens and womens rights, this anger. Anger born of fear is the worst kind if you ask me. It eats at a person.

So, do I want my son to grow up in a world that is fair for BOTH sexes? I'd like to make that happen for him. However, I feel absolute terror now that I have a daughter. I am terrified that she is going to be sitting, crying about a violation done to her, the loss of her security, the loss of her innocence and the people around her are going to be asking what SHE did to have such things happen to her. She was born a woman. God have mercy on her soul.

This is me saying I can't be objective to comments and posts such as this. I can't listen to men tell women what they are doing wrong. I just can't. A man will never be able to understand how I feel right now, days after the neighbor assaulted me. The comments from people about how I learned a lesson about putting myself in bad situations, they fire me up. Would a man be told that? No. Because a man wouldn't have been assaulted.
 
Jennifer Wadsworth
Posts: 2679
Location: Phoenix, AZ (9b)
182
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Elle - thank you for speaking your truth in a public forum - that took amazing courage.

I, too, have been assaulted in the "worst possible way" by a group of men. And there was an attempted assault by a dermatologist in Paris who wrongfully locked me in his office after hours. And the guy in Kenya when I was 12 and walking down the street - he was coming from the opposite direction. When he passed me, he swooped down and grabbed me in the crotch, probing with his fingers. On a busy sidewalk. In the middle of the day. It's now 40 years later and I STILL remember the trauma of that day - quite honestly, it makes me want to vomit.

There are many other instances that we all face every day. Working in a predominantly male profession (IT), I was often asked out for lunch with the rest of my team - all men - they invariably wanted to go to Hooters (for those who don't know - it's a restaurant that specifically hires large-breasted women who then wear tight, scanty HOOTERS uniforms). Hey - if people want to work as a "Hooter's girl" - it's not my problem. However, after a few times of accompanying the rest of my team to lunch - I'd had it with their crude behavior towards their servers. When I said something about it - I got reactions that were very similar to this thread. Some were affronted and told me to suck it up and deal with it, and some tried to see things from my vantage point and started to "get it". A couple even admitted that they felt uncomfortable going there themselves as they didn't like the vibe. So, the men who thought I should "not be so sensitive" basically shunned me and the others remain friends to this day.

Elle - I'm sorry that you have had the experiences that you've had - please feel free to PM me if you'd like. And I whole-heartedly empathize. I'm sorry too for the men who've been sexually assaulted (many when they were boys). It's an issue that we need to face if we are truly to embrace the ethics of permaculture. Without Care of People, we lose out on Care of the Earth and gaining meaningful Surplus.
 
elle sagenev
Posts: 1692
Location: Zone 5 Wyoming
98
bee chicken duck forest garden greening the desert homestead kids pig
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Jennifer Wadsworth wrote:Elle - thank you for speaking your truth in a public forum - that took amazing courage.

I, too, have been assaulted in the "worst possible way" by a group of men. And there was an attempted assault by a dermatologist in Paris who wrongfully locked me in his office after hours. And the guy in Kenya when I was 12 and walking down the street - he was coming from the opposite direction. When he passed me, he swooped down and grabbed me in the crotch, probing with his fingers. On a busy sidewalk. In the middle of the day. It's now 40 years later and I STILL remember the trauma of that day - quite honestly, it makes me want to vomit.

There are many other instances that we all face every day. Working in a predominantly male profession (IT), I was often asked out for lunch with the rest of my team - all men - they invariably wanted to go to Hooters (for those who don't know - it's a restaurant that specifically hires large-breasted women who then wear tight, scanty HOOTERS uniforms). Hey - if people want to work as a "Hooter's girl" - it's not my problem. However, after a few times of accompanying the rest of my team to lunch - I'd had it with their crude behavior towards their servers. When I said something about it - I got reactions that were very similar to this thread. Some were affronted and told me to suck it up and deal with it, and some tried to see things from my vantage point and started to "get it". A couple even admitted that they felt uncomfortable going there themselves as they didn't like the vibe. So, the men who thought I should "not be so sensitive" basically shunned me and the others remain friends to this day.

Elle - I'm sorry that you have had the experiences that you've had - please feel free to PM me if you'd like. And I whole-heartedly empathize. I'm sorry too for the men who've been sexually assaulted (many when they were boys). It's an issue that we need to face if we are truly to embrace the ethics of permaculture. Without Care of People, we lose out on Care of the Earth and gaining meaningful Surplus.



I think it is hard to comprehend things that aren't personally experienced. For instance, my husband gets angry for me, he gets upset when these things happen to me. I am the same when he is treated poorly by racists. However, I can't really understand what it feels like to not be white, just like he can't really understand what it's like to be a woman. We simply have empathy for each other.

I can't deny that some women are just bonkers, but most aren't. Most have had horrible things happen to them and these things are hard to overcome. Hard because not only are we violated but we are then blamed for that violation. It's an awful world.

I'm sorry for what happened to you. You've experienced far worse than I have so I can't imagine how you dealt with it. I figure I'll stop being weepy here eventually.
 
steward
Posts: 809
Location: Italy, Siena, Gaiole in Chianti zone 9
215
books forest garden trees woodworking
  • Likes 4
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
This is a very difficult subject for me not being a fully english speaking person. Its difficult to express my thoughts.
I feel sometimes very ashamed of how my gender is towards women. I?ve rad lately very disturbing stories and they always end badly for the assaulted side.
I can say that I've had a life that has granted me the opportunity to live different situations. i grew abroad in an arabic country and I've learned what it means to be a minority, even from the first world so a privileged minority, and when I grew up I never forgot this I just can't help not being racist, and I try to not be racist, knowing my first world culture is very racist, and Italy is a racist country.

I was assaulted when 14 by a man friend of my sister. I even had problems telling my sister thinking she would have thought it was sort of my fault, I guess its how many women sometimes live their experiences. being that usually the assualted gets judged in a guilty way.
I just couldn't react when assaulted and had very horrible feelings, luckily I managed to stop him asking him please stop, and sometimes the absurd thing is I thank that person for having stopped, crazy that I have thought this so many times. Probably its because I don't know how I could have stopped a person 10 years older than me. I'm 39 now and it still is a memory that i keep inside vivid. I've told this story many times to friends, I've never written about it. And seeing it written down is strange.

I've had many feminist, or lesbian separatist friends, big discussions, but huge friendships. Strong ties, that maybe I hope taught me something. truth is this society puts men in a privileged position towards women and you have to always be conscious of this. I though can't stop feeling gender shame when I read of some news.
In permaculture I guess sexism is an issue being that sexism is an issue in society and we don't live on mars, so we have to think of sexism as an issue that goes with care of people, racism as ani ssue that goes with care of people or we'll never really change anything.

I've been very dogmatic politically in my life, growing up I've changed not having less very strong positions but less necessity to impose my visions. I think here on permies I feel very at ease and don't feel tred on, and I don't tred on anyone.

the phrase that I love is: learning about good things rather than being angry at bad guys. It is so true, I think if you are good you receive goodness, not always but often, if you renounce to try or just be angry it will never end. I guess though that my angryness is different from that of a women that constantly gets tred on in true life, not here I hope. And thats an angryness you just can't stop feeling, and getting over it is difficult. there are decent men in the world, I just hope every woman gets a chance to meet them, so a woman can discover faith that maybe one day decent men wont be a minority but a majority, and this society will have changed.
really difficult to write of this in english, I guess I'll stick to plants.





 
Jennifer Wadsworth
Posts: 2679
Location: Phoenix, AZ (9b)
182
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Lorenzo - that is possibly one of the most beautiful posts I've ever read. Thank you for posting. You did an exquisite job of expressing yourself in English. You made me cry. Peace to you, my brother.
 
Lorenzo Costa
steward
Posts: 809
Location: Italy, Siena, Gaiole in Chianti zone 9
215
books forest garden trees woodworking
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Peace to you my sister. What I love of this community is that I've received so much in the past year and a half. I hope to have shared something to others like I've received.
I guess this site hands on spoons in hundreds during a day, just to quote another thread
Thank you to all, it maybe a virtual community but I feel happy to be part of it.

 
master steward
Posts: 27703
Location: missoula, montana (zone 4)
bee chicken hugelkultur trees wofati woodworking
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I remember reading something once that was written by a person that got a sex change operation from female to male. This person stated that as a female, she had problems and fears as a female. Rape was at the top of the list. He/she mentioned that when going to a bar or similar social gathering, there was a lot of fear of being sexually molested or hurt or raped.

Then, after the operation and recovery, he would go to similar situations and there was fear of being hurt by men as part of the bravado to apparently impress women or to express masculinity. But the thing that really stuck in my head is that this person suggested that the fear as a man was ten times greater than the fear as a woman.

This whole space gets freaky/scary/spooky ugly when we mix in the whole thing where apparently most women are seeking "a bad boy". In fact, as a young man, I remember watching a movie where a fella is interested in a gal and she is not interested in him. So he does a makeover into "a bad boy" and then she is nuts about him. I'm not saying that this is a universal truth - but the theme is pretty common.

- - - -

Around 1991 and 1992 I was trying to connect people to my online service. I would drive to their site and set up equipment and help to get them online. Usually several a day. I remember coming out of a house that was right next door to a house for adults with learning disabilities. There was a guy standing outside the house staring at a woman about half a block away.

Her car was broke down. There were three other cars behind hers and three guys trying to fix her car. She was wearing a tube top and was looking extremely sexy. She had noticed the guy standing in front of the house. He we slack-jawed, openly starting at her boobs. And he had a long rope of drool coming out of his mouth and down his shirt.

My guess is that she wanted to go out and have a sexy day. Be sexy. Be sexy for cute guys. Maybe start a new relationship. Maybe start something that doesn't end in a relationship. Who knows. But her sexy package caught the eye of this guy with the drool. It seems pretty clear that the guy with the drool is, while an adult, with adult rights and adult ... lust? He is also a guy that is to be sometimes treated like a minor (I was going to say "child" - but that doesn't seem quite right either).

The woman is trying to position herself so that she hides her sexiness from the guy with the drool. My impression is that she wants to have a sexy day, but she also thinks being sexy in front of this particular guy is less than proper. But it is really hard to project "sexy" to JUST the guys that you want to project that to.

I felt bad for the guy with the drool. And I felt bad for the woman stuck in this awkward dilemma.

- - - -

About six years ago a woman told me a story of how she was "nearly raped" (quotes are mine). At first I was prepared to be angry about the rape and the person that almost did the raping. As I heard the detailed story, I was angry with the woman telling the story - after all, there are REAL rapes out there, and calling this "nearly raped" is an affront to women who were ACTUALLY nearly raped, or actually raped!

The story goes like this: the woman is talking to two guys. She really, really, really wants to have sex with one of the guys. But is not interested in the other. She is doing all that she can to seduce the one guy without being a jerk to the other. It seems that the first guy is not at all interested, but the second guy is very interested. My recollection of the story is that she mentions how a woman loves to be swept off her feet. So the second guy picks her up and carries her a few feet. She screams in protest. That's it. He sets her down and she makes it clear that she is not interested in him - she is interested in the other guy. "Nearly raped."

I feel bad for guy #2. My impression is that he was trying to be romantic - which is always a bit of a risk that your romantic gesture will be unwelcome. Such a complicated world we live in.

Part of me feels like I should just trust her word - after all, I wasn't there. But when she was done with the story, I asked lots of questions about it because I was shocked that "nearly raped" would be applied here. After a few minutes of me asking questions, I think she got the idea that I was not going to endorse "nearly raped" so she stopped answering my questions.

- - - -

There is a lot of evil in the world. And it is not just from men:




As we explore issues of sexism, I think it is important to clarify societal problems and properly classify sexism vs. hostility from hostile people.

And if we are going to talk about a societal problem of sexism, it is important to explore the roots of that problem.

I have met men that don't go out much because they have fears about hostility directed to them. And, of course, women with similar fears. I think some of it is sexual - but most of it is just plain violence.

I'm speaking up because I think that a lot of violence and hostility is directed to people - not just women. And these issues are massively complicated. If we are going to solve the world's problems, we have to look at the true state of what is right now.


......

- - - - -

I wish to relay hundreds more stories and bits of information. My mind is reeling with studies and pseudo-studies and the information from 30 years ago compared to today ... I want to embrace and respect each sentence presented this morning, while challenging some ("... constant obscenities yelled at you ..."). And then try to distinguish between hostile things directed at me because I am me, vs. hostile things directed at me because of the gender I was born with. My embracing feminism many decades ago and my being offended by some things labeled as feminism in the last decade. How I only recently learned of the word "misandry" and am starting to see the point of how we need to, possibly, replace feminism with a focus on the issues of misandry and misogany. I am concerned that if we take violence/hostility against people and then ignore all of the violence/hostility against men then we might mistakenly come to some really horrible conclusions that will make the problems worse rather than make things better.

As I think of all the things I want to say in this space, I realize it will take me months to write it. And, frankly, of all the things I need to write about, this is a topic where it twists my innards too much and it is an area where so many other people are doing so much more study than I am. And I have my own fields of study that need more of my time. So I am ashamed to turn to a cheap excuse of doing other things. I do hope that people discussing this will try to be considerate of both genders as this very important discussion moves forward.

 
paul wheaton
master steward
Posts: 27703
Location: missoula, montana (zone 4)
bee chicken hugelkultur trees wofati woodworking
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I think it is super important to respect violence done to people - and to stand up for goodness and decency.

I think it is wrong to dismiss violence done to half the population because of the gender they were born with. I also think it is wrong to suggest that one gender is always right and the other gender is always wrong.

If we have data that suggests that our society is committing a wrong against one gender, then that does need to be addressed as a societal issue. But we have to embrace ALL gender issues - we don't just ignore half the population.
 
elle sagenev
Posts: 1692
Location: Zone 5 Wyoming
98
bee chicken duck forest garden greening the desert homestead kids pig
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

paul wheaton wrote:I think it is super important to respect violence done to people - and to stand up for goodness and decency.

I think it is wrong to dismiss violence done to half the population because of the gender they were born with. I also think it is wrong to suggest that one gender is always right and the other gender is always wrong.

If we have data that suggests that our society is committing a wrong against one gender, then that does need to be addressed as a societal issue. But we have to embrace ALL gender issues - we don't just ignore half the population.



I actually believe part of the solution is addressing the idea of "manliness". I do not discredit it as an issue.
 
paul wheaton
master steward
Posts: 27703
Location: missoula, montana (zone 4)
bee chicken hugelkultur trees wofati woodworking
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I just spent some time looking up "red pill". I'm not sure what to think about that. It seems to be a bunch of stuff about anti-feminism, specifically, they seem to insist that feminism is the same as misandry (which I don't agree with), plus a bunch of dating tips.

Bottom line: If we are going to talk about societal problems with sexism, I think it is not fair to talk about the problems of just one gender - because that, in itself, would be sexist.

Somebody mentioned how important it is that I carry the right message, because so many people value my opinion. I think there is some truth to that. I don't think people value my opinion as much as they might value the opinion of a popular movie star or popular podcaster, but, yeah, there are .... maybe hundreds of people that will give my opinion more weight than somebody they don't know.

I would like to think that this is because I feel strongly about goodness and decency. But I don't know the real reason. It could be anything.

On the topic of feminism, I have heard from a lot of folks that I need to think they thoughts they tell me to think - and I don't agree with their position - so they get really angry with me.

From my first post in this thread:

I think the problems with sexism still exist today. And while I have great concern in this space, I have much greater concern that for every REAL problem, there are dozens of red herrings. There are so many pseudo-problems being tossed about that any attempt to have a healthy dialog in this space is mired in false information.



If we are going to talk about violence against women, I need to see an equal amount of time put to violence against men. And it would be helpful to further break it down to violence caused by which gender.

So if a woman stands up to talk about violence done to her by a man and points to that event as a societal issue, then my concern is that people might assume that there is only violence by men against women. Thus, none of women against men, none of women against women, none of men against men. If we explore only violence of men against women as if there is none of the others, then I think that is a serious mistake.


As I mentioned earlier today:

As I think of all the things I want to say in this space, I realize it will take me months to write it.



Just my thoughts on this topic are too big to fit in this thread. And my thoughts are just thoughts - which would need months of research to flesh out facts from actual research, as opposed to bits and bobs that I have picked up over the decades. Earlier today I started to write something and realized that I don't have the time to write all the stuff I want to say - so I cut it short.

I care deeply about the awfulness that is done to people. Including the awfulness that is done under the umbrella of misogyny and misandry (my spellchecker knows "misogyny" but does not know "misandry" - so this would be a case in point). I think that I could make a difference in this space, but it would, most likely, take the rest of my life. Instead, I hope to focus my time more on fighting cancer and other toxin-related diseases, war and pollution caused by energy issues, starvation and the general desire of folks to break free of wage-slavery.


 
paul wheaton
master steward
Posts: 27703
Location: missoula, montana (zone 4)
bee chicken hugelkultur trees wofati woodworking
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
When I was 20, i worked as a clerk in a massive accounting house.

I was very good at this job. Whenever anybody got behind for one reason or another, I was assigned to help them.

I remember working with one woman who was extremely quiet and sweet. And I knew of a guy in another department that was also really quiet and sweet. And I remember that, in time, they would go to lunch together once or twice a week. I thought that that was really cool - that two people that seem to be such an excellent match were able to find each other.

Then came all of the sexual harassment stuff. Dating in the office is discouraged. And if a person asks another person on a date, in the office, they might be reported for sexual harassment.

Now, I think that the two of them would have never started to date.

I think that the sexual harassment prevention training did a LOT of good stuff to protect good and decent people from icky people. Unfortunately, it also discourages good and decent relationships from forming. So complicated.

So, to complicate things about a hundred fold: in the feeble attempt to try to solve the world's societal problems, we have to think of a path that allows these two sweet people to be able to easily come together, because they are shy and that shyness is already a pretty significant barrier. At the same time, there are the woman that lust for the bad boys. In fact, there are oodles of all sorts of weird kinksters where their mating rituals are full of odd things. There are people looking for life partners and there are people looking for a partner for just a few minutes.

The mission is to add goodness and decency.

And now to complicate things another hundredfold: some people are so wicked that they would use the system designed to help people in an effort to gain some small thing, or to hurt somebody because they are mad at them. Maybe even destroy a life.



Earlier, we talked about the probability of a man taking his own life is four times higher than a woman. There could be a lot of reasons for this. I think it could be worthwhile to explore "why?"


 
pollinator
Posts: 4154
Location: Northern New York Zone4-5 the OUTER 'RONDACs percip 36''
59
books fungi hugelkultur solar wofati woodworking
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
- the 1st time I heard '' Her body, Her rules " was from my own mother at least 50 years ago ! Now I Guess its Their Body,Their Rules !

This pretty well covers everything link below :

http://www.upworthy.com/how-7-things-that-have-nothing-to-do-with-rape-perfectly-illustrate-the-concept-of-consent?g=2&c=huf1&fb_ref=Default
 
master steward
Posts: 8825
Location: Pacific Northwest
3223
cat duck fiber arts forest garden homestead hugelkultur kids sheep foraging wood heat
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Thinking about Paul’s point about men’s higher death rate, it reminded me of the phrase, “With great power comes great responsibility.” Women are abused and live in fear because men are stronger, and some stronger men abuse that power, leading to rape, workplace injustice, etc. But, other men, take that responsibility seriously: they work their tails off for their families (I know my Dad did). I recently read this article (http://theatln.tc/1CJuPji) about how, when you have to struggle without support to better your life, your health really suffers from it. It spoke a lot about moving up from poverty, but I think it also applies here.

Aside from working their tales off, and the stress that imparts on their bodies, more men risk their lives in more dangerous fields…often so that their wives and children need not to…or because women aren’t allowed in those fields (like women not allowed on the front lines).
This article (http://mic.com/articles/88277/23-ways-feminism-has-made-the-world-a-better-place-for-men) had an interesting spin on feminism. The author proposes that men have benifited a lot from feminism and its proponents doing such things as including men in the definition of rape, got paid sick days for men and women, as well as less-easily definable advantages such as “better relationships and more satisfying sex” .

I thought it was an interesting take on the disadvantages men face. Perhaps those disadvantages are partly caused by sexism, rather than caused by feminism…
 
Jennifer Wadsworth
Posts: 2679
Location: Phoenix, AZ (9b)
182
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

paul wheaton wrote:
I think it is wrong to dismiss violence done to half the population because of the gender they were born with. I also think it is wrong to suggest that one gender is always right and the other gender is always wrong.



Who said that one gender is always right and the other always wrong on this thread? Many people have pointed out that violence might be disproportionate or skewed but I don't recall anyone saying "I'm always right and you're always wrong". In fact, I see a lot of women trying really hard NOT to do that because it's been done so often to them.

paul wheaton wrote:If we have data that suggests that our society is committing a wrong against one gender, then that does need to be addressed as a societal issue. But we have to embrace ALL gender issues - we don't just ignore half the population.



I'm in full accordance for embracing and addressing ALL gender issues. What are your biggest concerns?

Mine are:
--The sex trade - people, a disproportionate number of which are women and children, being sold into human bondage (I'll admit that I don't know of any adult men being sold but the possibility is there) - this is a growing concern in AZ as it has come to light that women, girls and boys are being abducted and brought over the border from Mexico so that American men can have sex with them. There have been some massive sting operations that have caught some of the perpetrators, and there has been a big effort to educated hotel/motel staff to the issue. Unfortunately this has driven this practice into isolated trailers and open fields. To date, they have not caught any female perpetrators. Does this mean there aren't any female perpetrators? No. The possibility exists that there are.
--Laws that limit what people can do with regards to the autonomy of their own bodies - at any given time there are dozens, possibly even 100+ laws proposed limiting the autonomy of the female body in this country (USA) at all levels of government. I currently do not know of any laws that limit the autonomy of mens' bodies. Perhaps there are some that I don't know about?
--Access to sexual education over and above abstinence for both genders, safe and effective birth control for both genders, access to the morning after pill/safe abortions/vasectomies for those who want them - no questions asked, parenting classes for anyone who wants them. Both genders lack this access in many parts of the USA and around the world.
--The abolition of practices that remove part of one's body or mutilate it due to religious or cultural mores. Both genders suffer from this although I could make a very compelling argument that male foreskin circumcision, especially performed by a doctor in a sterile environment, is vastly different from having one's clitoris and outer labia removed with a piece of broken glass or non-sterile cooking knife and then abrading and sewing the inner labia together as a kind of chastity precaution.
--Globally - laws that allow an adult to marry a child - sometimes a very young child. I have only ever heard this happening to girls. It's possible that it also happens to boys but I don't know about it.
--Globally - laws that limit the right of adults to vote, drive, wear the clothing that they want, own property, access educational opportunities, access employment opportunities that pay equally so all people can support themselves and their families.
--Religious mores that allow honor killings or disfigurement (like splashing acid in someone's face), stoning individuals for being accused (proven or not) of having sex outside of marriage, workplace morality clauses that punish people for something that happened on their own personal time and not at work. These can occur to both genders depending on where in the world you live and the religious beliefs involved.
--Sexual violence perpetrated on the LGBT community BECAUSE they are LGBT. This also includes attempts to "re-educate" LGBT youth/adults.

There's more - but those are the highlights that occurred off the top of my head while writing this.

I think when we discuss gender issues - we need to acknowledge that many systems have been set in place with a cultural and/or religious bias towards one gender. In my experience, these biases have been overwhelmingly in favor of men and not women and definitely not people who fall outside male/female gender associations. There exists the possibility that there are systems that are skewed to favor women. The most often cited in the USA is child custody and divorce laws. (http://www.thesocraticproject.com/2013/01/17/do-divorce-laws-favor-women/) Sitting here thinking about it - no other system comes readily to my mind (personally) that is skewed to favor women.

Perhaps others can chime in here. Obviously I see the world through a woman's eyes and through a woman's experience. That is my bias, although I do try to engage in challenging that bias. I fully admit that I am not perfect, that I do not speak for all women and that I don't have universal knowledge of the plight of both men and women around the world. A possible plus for me is that I have is a somewhat diverse background: I have lived on four continents in countries with a diversity of primary religions including various forms of Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Taoism and Confucianism, spoken three languages and attended Catholic, Islamic and Buddhist schools.



 
See ya later boys, I think I'm in love. Oh wait, she's just a tiny ad:
2019 ATC (Appropriate Technology Course) in Montana
https://permies.com/wiki/101802/ATC-Technology-Montana
  • Post Reply Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
  • New Topic
Boost this thread!