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Tyler Ludens
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I think generally in most communities the main safety compliance one needs is to have a fence around the pool.  But I could be out of date!
 
richard valley
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The larger pool in the video is great. I may do such a thing here. I like the whole idea, maybe adding wood fired heating, doesn't have to be warm, just take the chill off.
 
nancy sutton
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Permaculture Mag offers the DVD for "Building a Natural Swimming Pool" by Dave Butler, which I'd buy in a heartbeat, BUT it seems to be only in PAL format. I've emailed them twice to ask about the possibility of a NTSC version....but no answer.

http://www.green-shopping.co.uk/dvds/natural-swimming-pools.html

Maybe if they got inquiries from more of us over here (if there are any more of us over here :), it might prompt a version for us ;)
 
Stacy Zoozwick
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Wow that is so cool! How does this work in cold weather climates? Structurally if it freezes will it be sound enough to last. Also would one have to keep it circulating all winter so it would not freeze? Has anyone put small pan fish in something like this? What a great way to have fresh fish and have fun at the same time.
 
Tyler Ludens
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I think if you include fish you'll need to make the filter zone larger, to clean the fish waste. You could include many kinds of edible plants as well, making it a beautiful aquaponics system you can swim in!

 
Dale Hodgins
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One way to vastly increase natural filtration would be to construct the sides using gabion cages filled with pebbles. Gabions could be used as support for pots, diving boards,and any other structure so that filtration is spread all around the pond. Care would need to be taken to avoid sharp wires and the risk of catching the clothing of submerged swimmers.

The liner and protective fabric would be separated from swimmers and other hazards by a wall of rock. Replacement of the liner would require complete dismantle of walls. Something that should be done right or not at all.

I don't know if this has ever been done. In contemplating natural filtration ,it came to mind as a way to get an enormous surface area.

I'll post something in depth after a thorough investigation. I'll post here and in aquaponics threads.
 
Tyler Ludens
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Excellent idea for the gabions, Dale. I tell ya, you are The Idea Man. If one is including fish in the design, one needs to make sure the wire used for gabions does not contain zinc - it couldn't be galvanized hardware cloth for instance - or copper. Both potentially toxic to water critters. Some kind of very sturdy plastic mesh might be a choice if such a thing exists, or if you don't like plastic, stainless steel!
 
Dale Hodgins
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I looked it up and most of the heavy metal stuff concerning fish has to do with mine tailings.

Some chain link comes with a plastic coating. Damaged fishing nets could be used and are available free. --- If the sides were built at the angle of repose ( same angle as a pyramid ) or less steep, the rocks could be laid as rip rap without containment.
 
Tyler Ludens
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Not heavy metals, metals toxic to fish; zinc can kill fish. For instance, galvanized stock tanks can degrade and cause fish poisoning, so one should never use galvanized stock tanks for aquaponics.

I like the idea of the rocks just being piled, I don't see a problem with that. Of course one bit of the pool edge would need a dock or other means of climbing out, other than scrambling up the rip-rap....
 
Dale Hodgins
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Zinc and copper were both covered in articles about heavy metals. Lead and mercury aren't alone in that category. Zinc is a dietary requirement for fish and humans so It's all about concentration.
 
Tyler Ludens
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Ok, I'll keep saying it; using galvanized metal products in aquaponics is warned against because it can kill your fish. Just sayin'.



"Galvanised tanks are coated with zinc. Over time the zinc coating oxadises and is leached into the water body, and zinc is well known to cause problems for fish.

The use of Galvanised tanks goes against common accepted knowledge and also a lot of research that can be easily accessed.
The way in which zinc affects fish is death by tissue hypoxia.
Below is some exerpts from a scientific jounal that should prove to be interesting on the subject.

Acute zinc toxicity to rainbow trout (Salmo gairdneri): confirmation of the hypothesis that death is related to tissue hypoxia Burton, DT | Jones, AH | Cairns, J
Journal of the Fisheries Research Board of Canada [J. Fish. Res. Bd. Can.]. Vol. 29, no. 10, pp. 1463-1466. 1972.

"Acute heavy metal toxicity to fish has been attributed to the coagulation or precipitation of mucus on the gills and/or to cytological damage to the gills. The physiological mechanism of death by either of the above causes is related to a breakdown in gas exchange at the gills. This study of acute zinc toxicity to rainbow trout (Salmo gairdneri) supports an earlier hypothesis that modification of the gas exchange process at the gills creates hypoxia at the tissue level. Tissue hypoxia appears to be a major physiological change preceding death once the gas exchange process at the gills is no longer sufficient to supply the oxygen requirements of the fish."

Hypoxia is a condition of oxygen reduction in humans and animals. As an example, mountain climbers can suffer hypoxia when climbing at altitude, which causes initially disorientation followed by nausea then ultimately death.

Research shows that as little as 35 thousandths of a thousandth part can be detrimental to fish.
So the fish will die exhibiting the same symptoms as if there is lack of dissolved oxygen in the water.
I would suggest that some folk have gotten away with using old galvanised tanks to date, because they have been raising Tilapia which are well known to be able to tolerate poor water quality and low DO levels.

Trout or Barramundi are at the other end of water quality needs and would quickly succumb to zinc poisoning if placed in a system that had galvanised tanks or grow beds.."

http://www.aquaponics.net.au/aqua1/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=84:can-i-use-old-galvanised-tanks-or-grow-beds-&catid=50perating-a-system&Itemid=58


 
Dale Hodgins
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The world is overrun with scrapped fishing nets. Nice thick salmon netting should do it.

I have gabions on the brain today. Figured out how to build stem walls and made a plan to surround the heat riser of a RMH with lava rock for decorative and safety reasons.
 
Shane Dailey
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I am guessing that my Ducks and geese would add to many "nutrients" to stay very clean. Short of an ugly fence how would one keep them out? Or just have a huge margin of filtering plants...
 
paul wheaton
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Here is the dvd preview:



The DVD is available here. I did some math and it sounds like it is about $30 with shipping.


 
nancy sutton
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This is torture.....it is PAL format!!! I've emailed 'Permaculture Mag' asking if it will ever be NTCS (or whatever we are here)... crickets. I'd buy it in a heartbeat if I could play it :)
 
Dale Hodgins
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This guy approaches naration with the same gusto and tone exibited by Ringo Starr when he was the conductor on "Shining Time Station."
He may also be the guy who narates B.B.C. videos on cheese making.
 
Suzy Bean
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Paul and Anna Birkas do a podcast review of the Natural Swimming Pools DVD.
 
Dave Bennett
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Regarding water temperature for swimming. 80 degree F water cools the human body at the same rate as 40 degree F air.
 
nancy sutton
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I had given up on being able to buy a playable version of the natural pool dvd, until Paul's lastest great podcast. I've emailed Permaculture Mag's store twice, asking if there will ever be an NTSC version available, with no response. (So, Maddy? if you're listening.... how about it? This latest podcast is a great advertisement! ;)

But, now I have to ask here a third time... is there an NTSC format version of Butler's Natural Swimming Pool dvd, that Paul and Anne just watched and reviewed, available for sale? The site Paul linked to in a previous post is Permaculture Magazine's store, which offers only a PAL version, not playable outside Europe.

So what was Paul watching? A one-off PAL version commercially converted to NTSC? Or, did he use a fancy multi-format player? Or, was it magic? Or,.... is it really available from some source somewhere? (Other than the 'new' one offered at Amazon for $149!)

I hope I'm missing something that's right in front of my lo-tech face....thanks for any enlightnment ;)
 
Suzy Bean
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Paul and Anna Birkas discuss natural swimming pools, the DVD and the subject (part 2) in this podcast.
 
paul wheaton
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I know that when you sent me an email. I forwarded it to maddy. Did you get a good response?

I know that I didn't think about formats, and it just played in my laptop. I don't even own a TV - so the laptop is the only thing I have.

I know that when I watched the Ben Law DVD with Krista, Caleb and the turtles, the first attempt was wonky and .... some fiddling had to be done before it would go. Maybe this had to do with the format?

 
Jami McBride
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Okay, so I just listened to the podcast and I have questions..... I've watched a couple youtube videos, but I do not want to use a liner.

Paul, You started off by saying - asking permission from one government department can lead to many headaches, while going to another department would be much easier sailing. However you didn't say what the better agency to go to is. Can you please name some names?

You discussed the issues with a vertical side wall, but said a slope would work. Soooo what would you think the steepest (side) slope one could construct and still pack with a backhoe?
I've been planning a 3' ledge around the edge a few feet deep, and then a slope to the bottom. I thought about using a lot of rock in the sides to help with muck - would this work, assuming one had a good packable soil?

Great podcast.



 
paul wheaton
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Anthony Anderson
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Who has plans for 2013 to do one of these? I was set on DPB's pond liner, but after hearing Paul describe Sepp's techniques..with enough gravel and possible even some cedar walls? Who needs straight walls I dont know but maybe some kind of replaceable cedar could work. I like the idea of terraces (more like steps) making their way down to 2-3 meters...and with cob techniques, I dont know why DPB would spend so much on cement bricks.
 
Pecos Rich
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nancy sutton wrote:I had given up on being able to buy a playable version of the natural pool dvd, until Paul's lastest great podcast. I've emailed Permaculture Mag's store twice, asking if there will ever be an NTSC version available, with no response. (So, Maddy? if you're listening.... how about it? This latest podcast is a great advertisement! ;)

But, now I have to ask here a third time... is there an NTSC format version of Butler's Natural Swimming Pool dvd, that Paul and Anne just watched and reviewed, available for sale? The site Paul linked to in a previous post is Permaculture Magazine's store, which offers only a PAL version, not playable outside Europe.

So what was Paul watching? A one-off PAL version commercially converted to NTSC? Or, did he use a fancy multi-format player? Or, was it magic? Or,.... is it really available from some source somewhere? (Other than the 'new' one offered at Amazon for $149!)

I hope I'm missing something that's right in front of my lo-tech face....thanks for any enlightnment ;)


Most computers with a DVD drive can play a PAL DVD. You might need to download some player software if it doesn't "just work". VLC Media Player is a great free option that comes to mind. http://www.videolan.org/vlc/index.html
 
jeff knox
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I have a natural pool in south east Australia. It is at its best in summer where temperatures can exceed 40c
I recently had the water tested by my local council which came back with a very healthy score card. This summer is the seventh for my pool and absolutely nothing has ever been added to the water to treat it.
There is approx 230,000 litres in the system which is circulated by a single 460 watt pump. Water clarity is excellent.

I built 2 pools last year that run on solar power only. One has a single 100 watt pump, and the other has two 100 watt pumps.
Both pools are producing the same healthy, clear water as my own pool.

The concept for these pools is very simple, it is a matter of understanding what is required, and why. The other requirement is to know how to build a solid construction that will last for years.
I use Firestone liner from the U.S. which has a 25 plus year life span.

The name 'natural pools' came from Europe and refers to the swimming experience, not the construction. A well built natural pool will exceed all but the most pure streams and lakes because they are a closed system with no runoff from land where animals and fertilizers etc are present.

There is nothing wrong with a blue tiled, dead water pool if that is your preference, but after experiencing my own pool, it is hard to beat.

I can also drink the water from my pool, which has a better taste than my rainwater tank.

The pool chemical market is huge, I can only chuckle when I go to a pool store to buy plumbing fittings, and look at the 'great wall of chemicals' on offer.

Most importantly, there are no special components needed to be bought to make these pools work. My own systems are built using 'readily available to the public' components.

Find out how and why fish tanks and aquaculture systems work, and you will be well on the way to understanding the concept.
 
pal lane
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I found this thread as a "similar thread" on my introduction post... and had to laugh when I found it connected my name with a weird DVD format. But after reading through it, I have to post my web site so you can have a look at my natural, spring-fed pool. I have fish and algae in small amounts, but the snails are becoming a nuisance, so I need to start farming them! I haven't found the 'Snail farming' thread yet, but I'm sure there is one here! It was a huge project to build, but have to say well worth it.

Check out my natural pool: http://www.ektunbelize.com
 
Walter Jeffries
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We had a natural swimming pool for a long time but eight years ago we built a pond to replace it with. The pond is far larger, a lot more fun yet still small enough to be good for small kids. Ours is surrounded by rock walls and has a sand bottom leading up the beach which curves around one end enclosing our bonfire and picnic area. Fish included. Lots of fun and no chemicals. Just about no maintenance.

We also have a fountain on it. One of the springs that supplies the pond comes from about 2,000' (165' vertical head) further up the mountain via a plastic pipe. That high head lets the jet shoot way up in the air which is a lot of fun.

The pond's official purpose is to provide storage for our livestock water. It feeds a series of many troughs through our fields. The microclimate and swimming are a great side benefit.

See:

http://images.google.com/search?q=site:sugarmtnfarm.com%20%22upper%20pond%22&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&biw=1137&bih=783&sei=Oh4RUs6uEKGqyAG__oBQ&tbm=isch

We have several more ponds. I like having a lot of small ponds rather than one large body of water as this keeps it under the regulatory threshold and provides more flexibility.
 
Lance Kleckner
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I think with the rainy climate you are in, you can go smaller. I prefer and hope to go as big I can for good water storage during drought.
 
Walter Jeffries
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I had meant to add that the reason so many farm ponds are less than appealing is high nutrient wash in from the field and low water flow. If you set up the slope to minimize the runoff wash in and have a strong spring feeding the pond then it will be nice clear (and cold) water. Our trout spawn in our pond as the water quality is high. This pond feeds other ponds, some of which the pigs swim in. Pigs like to pee in their ponds so I'm not interested in swimming with them. At the end of the series the last ponds flow out over our fields to irrigate the land which makes for very lush pasture growth even in the dry months of summer.
 
gason cocinero
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We've got to keep this thread going! This topic is incredible and we need to keep sharing what we've learned.

I have a large yard and just finished my grass area. I also dug out the swimming area of my natural pool. Next spring I'll dig out the regeneration area and begin the long process of building it. here is what it looks like now.



The dimensions are about 40 x 50 for the swim area right now. I'll increase it another 10' on width and length in the spring. I also paid an electrician to put in an electrical outlet (240 W) close to where my pump will go.

I hope to get the rest of my questions answered about how to build this thing before the spring. It is a semi complicated thing to create and I want to do it right and ensure I have the right materials/amounts so my wife feels more comfortable with this idea. She's worried it'll just turn into an algae mosquito growing cesspool. Any help/ideas the team here can provide would be awesome.

Here are a few questions I have left.
-How clean does the water get if I use clay as the sealer?
-Can I by myself seal 2 or 3 pond liners together to create one large enough for my area?
-What are the best kinds of rock to use in the regeneration zone along with amounts?
-What kind of perforated pipe is used to draw water down through the gravel and how is that pipe connected to the pool pump?


Here are a few notes that I have made and what I have learned about making natural pools. Hope this is of some use.

Gravel

granite river rock, haydite(used by totalhabitat) or shingle

Amounts used by Genus- pool company- Plant Filter – 23 tons of granite river rock, 23 tons of granite peastone, 6 yards of sandy topsoil

This is part of your biofiltration system. Use only clean gravel for this process. Fill the bottom of the pool with four to five inches of gravel. Tumbled or manufactured gravel, or aggregates are fine for this purpose. This gives a place for beneficial bacteria to live as they help break down leaves and other things that your skimmer misses.

Perlite
Perlite is a volcanic rock that at high heating will change into very light, expanded glass stones.

It is similar to vermiculite but holds more air and less water.

Because it is so light, it can drifting away and is not suitable for active hydroponics where the water flows.

It is perfect for the sowing of plants that are destined to be grown on hydroponics.


Plants to use:

Bulrush (Scientific classification: Schoenoplectus lacustrine)
Papyrus (Scientific classification: Cyperus papyrus)
Yellow Iris (Scientific classification: Iris pseudacorus)
Swamp Lily (Scientific classification: Hedichium coronarium)
Junco (Scientific classification: Juncus sellovianus)
Cattails (Scientific classification: Typha spp)
D'water lettuce (Scientific classification: Pistia stratiotes)
Calamo Aromatic (Scientific classification: Acorus calamus)
Water hyacinth (Scientific classification: Eichornia crassipes)
Glass of Milk (Scientific classification: Zantedeschia aethiopica)
Biri (Scientific classification: Canna edulis)
Water lily (Scientific classification: Nymphaea spp)

Water hyacinth- good to clean out contaminants like metals,urine, other algae.
http://www.pondkoi.com/pond_plants_floating.htm - jumbo water hyacinth
water lilies
lotus

elodea- submerged plant that eats algae

pros/cons water plants and names of quite a few. http://ohioline.osu.edu/a-fact/0017.html

(order plants from orem- http://aquaticutah.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=160

JAPANESE TRAPDOOR ALGAE EATING POND SNAILS
http://www.pondplants1.com/snails.htm
http://www.thepondguy.com/product/algae-eating-black-japanese-trapdoor-pond-snails/
grass carp

Plecostomus fish- very good at cleaning algea. need to winter inside though.


SELECTING PLANTS Be sure to choose plants suited to your climate. Your best bet is to obtain your plants from a native-plant supplier. Check the phone book and Internet for local sources. Home and garden centers also carry more aquatic plants now that backyard ponds are growing in popularity. End-of-the-season sales can save you money. Several mail-order nurseries also specialize in water-garden plants. (See “Pool Construction and Design.”) Sedges (Carex) and rushes (Scirpus), both aquatic plants, make great emergent vegetation for your pool’s perimeter. You can also consider lesser cattails (Typha angustifolia) and aquatic irises, though be sure to ask which varieties won’t overcrowd other plants. Pickerel weed (Pontederia cordata), arrowhead (Sagittaria) and water primroses (Ludwigia) are all contenders for the shallowest areas of your pool. Be sure to include submergent plants such as common waterweed (Elodea) and hornwort (Ceratophyllum) for their high oxygen output. In water 6 to 18 inches deep, plant a mix of floating, submergent and emergent plants. Water lilies (Nymphaea) adapt to any depth, so use them liberally. Floaters, such as pondweeds (Potamogeton) and common duckweed (Lemna minor), drift freely on the surface and quickly cover the surface of the plant zone. Before you make plans to tromp off to the nearest country pond and gather up a truckload of greenery, wait! Before collecting a single plant from the wild, know the laws protecting wetlands and their plants. if you do collect, be careful to guarantee the health of the wetlancl by selecting only a few samples from larger populations. Consider rescuing plants from a threatened site. Perhaps a new corporate headquarter’s construction is going to destroy your favorite frog hollow. Contact the company to see if it will allow you to rescue the imperiled plants and maybe a few amphibians. Once you’ve purchased your plants, you can plant them in the filled pool. Stick to a plan, grouping plants according to height and type. Place your plants into the soil, anchoring them, with plenty of gravel.
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steve perry
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Hello
I m building my first swimming pond, i have been doing some research, listening to podcasts, dvds etc, and we are trying to avoid the use of PDM or cement to seal the pond, i would like to know if anybody has had experience using clay/other natural materials as a sealer on a non-clay soil, and if you can share any details regarding this.
At the deepest point the pond will be 2 meters deep and the majority of the swimming area will be 1.5 meters deep. The pond have the shape of a 10m lap pool with a large paddle area at one end The ratio we are planning for the regeneration zone to the swimming area is 1:2
Thanks

pool-drawing.jpg
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Chuck Tom
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steve perry wrote:Hello
I m building my first swimming pond


Did you build it?
 
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