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wofati and earth berm

Hobbit Home Progress.

Jay Angler

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posted 4 months ago

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It seems to me that this is going to be a moving target for some time.

First, you've just added huge amounts of moisture, and will add more when you do the finish layer on the floor, so consider the electricity to run the dehumidifier " a building expense"!

Secondly, have you done the earth berming on the upper walls on any sides of the house yet? That's going to affect the indoor temperature.

However, you appear to be making a fairly well sealed house. Have you allowed for some sort of air-to-air heat exchange system, to insure your indoor air quality stays good?

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Dave Lotte

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posted 4 months ago

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Jay Angler wrote:so consider the electricity to run the dehumidifier " a building expense"!

Yes, but will only run the dehumidifier when absolutely necessary instead of for a heat source.

Jay Angler wrote:
Secondly, have you done the earth berming on the upper walls on any sides of the house yet ?

No, but 8 inches of foam on the walls OVERLAPPED by the 10 inches on the roof. Earth may add a bit of R value, but not much.

Jay Angler wrote:
Have you allowed for some sort of air-to-air heat exchange system ?

ERV already planned.

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Jay Angler

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Dave Lotte wrote:

Jay Angler wrote:so consider the electricity to run the dehumidifier " a building expense"!

Yes, but will only run the dehumidifier when absolutely necessary instead of for a heat source.

We use ours as a clothes dryer, but we're in a much wetter climate than you are. My sister in Southern Ontario in a 1950's uninsulated house just uses her furnace as her clothes dryer in the winter as she needs the extra moisture, and a clothesline in the summer.

Ecosystem is everything!

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Dave Lotte

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posted 4 months ago

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Jay Angler wrote: We use ours as a clothes dryer, but we're in a much wetter climate than you are.
Ecosystem is everything!

Plan to have a hanging cloths cupboard vented inline with the bathroom exhaust fan, with a circulating fan at the base...
Built in beside washer and dryer.
Cloths come out of the washer, get hung in the "closet", then turn the timer fan on for 30 min. Shuts of automatically.

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Dave Lotte

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posted 4 months ago

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I can see my floor !!

72 sand bags tied and stacked.

Now i can finish plate compacting that corner, then go over the entire floor with the compactor one last time, making sure it is within 1/4 inch of level - before installing the utilities. Water, hydro and sewer.

Its coming along !

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Dave Lotte

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posted 4 months ago

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Update on the " how cold will it go "

You know its cold out when the Fahrenheit temps go into the negative !
Dropped to -20 ( -4 F ) last night. No heat, just 2 ceiling fans running. House dropped 1.2 degrees F overnight - just shy of 24 hours.

After touching base with the engineer - verifying it is safe to compact the sand with 100 tons overhead ( sand and snow ) - time to go onto the next step.

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Jay Angler

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posted 4 months ago

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If you believe our Inuit, that's snow's adding some extra insulation. (0.5/inch or a bit more if it's fluffy, if you can believe the internet)

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Dave Lotte

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posted 4 months ago

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Jay Angler wrote: if you can believe the internet ....

Yup. R 1 per inch of light fluffy snow. Eskimo igloos use the same principles. Made of nothing but snow blocks - keep your cloths on, and warm enough to sleep in.

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Dave Lotte

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posted 3 months ago

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The " how low can it go " experiment has come to a quick end.

-22 last night, went in and noticed the frost and ice are moving into the house through the windows.
Time to crank up some heat, just enough to keep the ice out anyways, don't want to ruin my windows !

Ran my kerosene heaters for 40 minutes - from 43 F. up to 63 F.
Plugged in the small ceramic heater - same as last year. 50 % settings - plus the dehumidifier.
Gained 2 degrees, now to try to gain a few more ...

Plugged the larger gaps in the front door with damp paper towel and will have to keep monitoring the temps and frost.

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Build it because they say you can't.
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Dave Lotte

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posted 3 months ago

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For those just joining in, this is where the temp sensors are ....

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Dave Lotte

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posted 3 months ago

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Can't please everyone ....

Had an interesting conversation with someone who believes this house is poorly designed, and leaking heat - because there are ice dams on each front corner and at the sides of the house. ( pictured )... a sure sign that a " normal" house is leaking heat / poorly insulated.

Until i explained, that 2 months ago we had a 6 inch snowfall, followed by a warm sunny day - which caused the snow on the roof to melt and soak into the warm topsoil.
Then, the following night the temperature dropped below freezing again.

Here is the interesting part...

Heat / cold travels through a mass at about an inch per hour. So the temperature dropped to -5 overnight - WHILE THE DIRT WAS STILL WARM AND DRAINING - once the cold penetrated all the way through the 8 inch thick topsoil, ( 6 - 8 hours later ) it slowly stopped draining, and everything froze solid. Hence the ice dams. ( Drawing )
2 months ago i snapped the ice off on the front corner, and it has been like that ever since.

I am keeping 1,500 sqft at around 7.2 C. Or ( 45 F ) with a dehumidifier and 2 ceiling fans , overnight temps -8 to - 10 C. ( 13 - 16 F )
Ya, this is not a very efficient house .... 😂😂

On the plus side, once the house is backfilled and buried too the same 8 inch minimum depth all around, the water will be able to drain down the wall, and away, with plenty of time before freezing.

Gotta love physics.

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Dave Lotte

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posted 3 months ago

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One more task off the list.

Extending the sump pump pits up to the top of the proposed concrete floor. Was going to use steel barrels, but worried they would rust out over time.

Before i can finish leveling the sand floor, this needs to be done.

Expose and clean up the exsisting sump pump barrel.
Cut top out of exsisting barrel.
Find "level" 4 inches above footing. ( minimum depth of concrete floor )
Cut new barrel top - to fit - up to "level" and verify it is indeed 4 inches above footing.
Weight down the new barrel with 200 pounds of sandbags to keep it from shifting.

Repeat procedure for the back porch sump pit, ready to continue.

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Build it because they say you can't.
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Dave Lotte

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posted 3 months ago

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Gotta say .... hats off to my engineer !

Currently, 8 inches of topsoil, ( 44 ton ) plus 13 inches of snow on the roof - add to that it rained for 30 minutes yesterday, followed by more heavy, wet snow.

Went into the house and looked up, thinking :

Are those beams bending ?
They LOOK like they are bending... ??
They are not bending are they

Added a string line to 2 of the beams that LOOK like they are bending from the floor.
Nope.
I'm going to believe the string line. Thank You.

Hats off to my engineer , money well spent.

EDIT - They are wooden beams, and i was told they will flex and bend with loading, when the snow melts they will straighten back out again. If we ever get to that point

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Build it because they say you can't.
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Dave Lotte

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posted 3 months ago

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One final push, and the all the sand has been compacted !

7 hour stretch, and with all the heaters going ( on and off ) managed to get the house up to a comfortable 70 Degrees.
Had to untie 15 of my sand bags to fill in some spots.
Went outside and it turns out it is -13 ( 8 F. ) !

Bit of a rest, and onto the nexy step ! Plumbing trenches !

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Build it because they say you can't.
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Dave Lotte

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posted 3 months ago

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Getting hammered with snow.

Going to need a bigger yardstick.

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Build it because they say you can't.
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Dave Lotte

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posted 2 months ago

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It has been a while since my last post, so here is an update.

Many things have to happen to install a poured concrete floor.

1. Digging trenches for sewer piping. Dug out @ 1/4 inch per foot - see how it goes.
2. Opened up all the windows - removed the foam plugs - and let the heat INSIDE. Almost 70 F. degree day, and the house is sitting at a solid 45 F.
3. Moved all 150 sandbags out of the house. Clearing the way for the floor.
4. Started up the mini X for 3 hours - dry fit the pads for the window wells.
5. Went shoppimg for the main feeder line for the new house. Not a small wire.
6. Picked up a couple more rolls of waterproofing.

After 4 hours of having the windows open - letting the warm breeze blow though the house, i closed it all down and ran all my heaters for 1 hour. Next day .... after all that ? House was at 46 F. Wow.

So far so good.

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Build it because they say you can't.
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Dave Lotte

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posted 2 months ago

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Underslab sewer pipe installed and inspected.
Now to level the floor.... again.

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Matthew Nistico

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posted 2 months ago

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Dave Lotte wrote:Underslab sewer pipe installed and inspected.
Now to level the floor.... again.

Be sure to take care boxing out all penetrations through your concrete floor. My own house has a concrete slab foundation that I am finishing as a floor. My concrete contractor boxed out some penetrations, but not others. Surprise, surprise, the ones they failed to box out now have significant cracks radiating from where the pipes protrude! : (

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Dave Lotte

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posted 2 months ago

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Matthew Nistico wrote: My own house has a concrete slab foundation that I am finishing as a floor....

What type of house ? How thick is the pad ? Below grade ?

This house is 5 feet below grade and super insulated. It takes at least 3 days to see any kind of temperature change inside the house. So the concrete floor will be very temperature stable.
That being said....
I will be talking to one of the largest concrete companies in this area, and will mention this to him at length. If he says wrap - we wrap.

Will be posting updates as i go.

Build it because they say you can't.
18 different architect's that said " you can't do that "
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Matthew Nistico

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posted 2 months ago

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Dave Lotte wrote:

Matthew Nistico wrote: My own house has a concrete slab foundation that I am finishing as a floor....

What type of house ? How thick is the pad ? Below grade ?

This house is 5 feet below grade and super insulated. It takes at least 3 days to see any kind of temperature change inside the house. So the concrete floor will be very temperature stable.
That being said....
I will be talking to one of the largest concrete companies in this area, and will mention this to him at length. If he says wrap - we wrap.

Will be posting updates as i go.

As always, go with what your pros say. Just know the right questions to ask and the right red flags to watch for.

...And in this case, perhaps, do NOT listen to what I say. I may be misremembering or misunderstanding the nature of my own problem after many years, as I cannot now find any info online that corresponds exactly to what I thought I understood to be my problem. But in any case, here goes my best attempt to elaborate...

My house is built on a monolithic slab-on-grade foundation. That means it was laid in one pour that included the floor and integral, load-bearing bulges under the walls. This is as opposed to using stem walls built separately from the poured floor. My structure is entirely above grade. The pad is 3.5-4" thick. The building frame is insulated far beyond the norm in a milder climate, but still nothing like the temperature stability yours provides. I have been watching your progress here on Permies and am duly impressed by your results to date.

You are pouring your floor separately from your foundation, unlike me. Moreover, as you point out, the relative thermal stability of your floor area should work to minimize the stresses that create concrete cracks. But there will still be cracks. Cracking concrete is as certain as death and taxation. Even the best foundation settles, and even slow and moderate temperature swings will take their toll. That is why we cut control joints into concrete, to create pre-weakened spots where the cracks will form in a predictable way. That is also why we cut isolation joints around structural members, like columns, that will put extra stress on the surrounding slab. We know cracks will form there, so we try to contain them.

This much I'm pretty sure about. One can read further here: JLC March 1996

Anywhere a pipe, or anything else, penetrates the slab is a particular weak point, so cracks will start there. On top of that, the pipe material will contract/expand differently than the surrounding concrete, and might well experience extreme temperature swings (read: hot and cold running water) that will further create movement inclined to crack the concrete.

For that reason, it is best to physically separate the pipe from the concrete. You can do that by wrapping the pipe in a foam material that will absorb movement and blunt temperature swings. Or you can do that by creating a space around the penetration with a "box" before the pour so to leave an air gap around the pipe. You can actually build a small box with wood or, in the case of a single pipe, merely sleeve it inside a short length of larger-diameter pipe. Once the slab is poured (and cured?), the "box" can (optionally?) be removed. I guess it can also stay in place. Not sure which is more common.

I'm fuzzy about what happens next. I think that, depending on where the penetration is, you could either leave the air gap forever or follow up with a later, very small pour to fill the air gap with more concrete, counting on the boundary between the infill concrete and the larger slab to act as an isolation joint.

At this point, I invite all experienced concrete finishers to jump in and tell me I'm full of shit. Quite possibly.

I only know that this is what happens when you don't do it right. Bare in mind that I have control joints in my slab far beyond the minimum recommendation of every 12-15 feet. Mine are spaced 3 feet apart in a grid at 45 degrees to the orientation of the walls. Once the slab is stained and sealed as a finished floor, I plan to grout the control joints. I am hoping the effect will be of large tiles.

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Dave Lotte

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posted 1 month ago

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Matthew Nistico wrote:
it is best to physically separate the pipe from the concrete. You can do that by wrapping the pipe in a foam material that will absorb movement

Agreed. It is not a good idea to anchor piping into solid concrete - best to give it some room to flex and shift.
I do have a roll of sill gasket left over from the building the tops of the walls - which is the same thing the plumbers used to wrap the toilet pipes...

One step at a time...

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Dave Lotte

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posted 1 month ago

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7 hours in on Saturday and the access hatch for the sewer backflow preventer is leveled and at the proper height as well as the 4 inch wire conduit for the spare bedroom and back porch is in.

4 inch is a bit of overkill, but once the floor and half walls are in place should be hidden from view.

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Build it because they say you can't.
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Dave Lotte

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posted 1 month ago

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Sunday - filled in and leveled the 30 foot kitchen trench...
Conversation with plumber :

Me : i have alot of gravel to move out of here ....
Plumber : just take out a few pails of big rocks - leave the sand- you'll be fine....

My house : quietly laughing

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Build it because they say you can't.
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Dave Lotte

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Thank you Dan !

We are FINISHED hauling Styrofoam! Adds up to 30,000 $ worth over 5 trips, but we are DONE !

In order of pictures :

Blue plastic wrapped, steel laminated 10 inch foam for front walls = R 42. ( 4,000 $ )
Uneven load - 8 inch thick for side walls = R33.6 ( 6,500 $ )
2 pictures with pink foam wind blocker - 10 inch foam for roof = R42 ( 13,000 $ )
Last picture 7 inch foam for floors = R29.6 ( 6,500 $ )

Including the 1 inch foam under - and around - all of the concrete footings, and this home has a continuous thermal isolation barrier from the earth.

No wonder it takes 4 days for the temperature to change inside. 😁🤔

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Build it because they say you can't.
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Dave Lotte

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Well, i don't know about this one ....

According to building code - the sump pump now has to be sealed against radon gas....

Even comes with foam gaskets to apply to the lid - for an airtight seal.

So .... broken water pipe ? Overflowing toilet ? W... T .... F ??

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Dave Lotte

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Wanted to check to make sure my measurements were good.

End to end, with about 12 inches to spare - now to cut to fit.

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Build it because they say you can't.
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Dave Lotte

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Finally getting to the point where the floor has too be clear.
Everything has to be moved out.... or so i thought.
Rainy day on Saturday made me realize that instead of moving it OUT in the rain ... i can move it UP !

Dont worry, single screw at an angle to hold the hook in place, once a load is applied the hook digs into the wood. Long 2x6 fits nicely above the beam and wall...

Last of the corner footings and the fourth post footing has been vaccumed clean.
Saved myself alot of heavy, awkward carrying today by going up instead of out, and after a 14 hour weekend moving, hauling and carrying looking forward to going to work 😃.

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Build it because they say you can't.
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Dave Lotte

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posted 1 month ago

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Another 15 hour long weekend in.

The 2 - 15 amp temporary circuits have been relocated out of the way of the concrete floor pour.
The kitchen wire pipe run installed in its trench.
With those 2 items out of the way, 2/3 of the main houses radon gas venting system is laid into place and ready to be air sealed around the footings.

Time to start shopping for a utility pole. New 200 amp service has to go in before i can finish the radon system.

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Build it because they say you can't.
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Matthew Nistico

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Dave Lotte wrote:Time to start shopping for a utility pole. New 200 amp service has to go in before i can finish the radon system.

I'm curious: do you already know that you have a radon problem? I also live in a radon area, and have included an under-floor foundation vent pipe in preparation for a future radon-abatement system. I don't recall if this was a code requirement or just a recommendation; probably a requirement.

But I haven't bothered, and will not bother, to actually test for radon levels until the house if complete and I move in. Obviously you are still far from a move-in date. Until then, my "system" is just a pipe that extends into my attic, awaiting possible future completion. With luck, it will never need completion and will just sit forever as an empty pipe extending from my foundation up into my attic space.

Your need for electrical service suggests you are already further along towards completing your system. I am wondering why?

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Dave Lotte

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Matthew Nistico wrote:
I don't recall if this was a code requirement or just a recommendation; probably a requirement.

I have not bothered getting a radon test either, building inspector says i HAVE TO install it, so i install it.
Are you getting yours inspected at some point ? I would talk to your inspector if you are.
Easier and cheaper to install it now rather than later.

I know my inspector has an entirely seperate inspection - just for this step of the process.
He wants to see the gas venting system before anything else goes on top - no insulation, nothing.

Another point i would like to make - try not to upset your inspector any more than you have to. He is the one person that can make your life miserable.....
No radon system under your new floor ? - rip out the floor and start again.

Build it because they say you can't.
18 different architect's that said " you can't do that "
Google " undergroundandlovinit "

Matthew Nistico

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Location: Clemson, SC ("new" Zone 8a)

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posted 1 month ago

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Dave Lotte wrote:I have not bothered getting a radon test either, building inspector says i HAVE TO install it, so i install it.
Are you getting yours inspected at some point ? I would talk to your inspector if you are.
Easier and cheaper to install it now rather than later.

For sure, if you think there's even a chance of ever wanting a radon-abatement system, you should go ahead and lay the pipe while you are preparing the foundation. Do it even if they don't require it. Why not? If you plan for it before you lay your slab, it costs next to nothing in the grand scheme for just the pipe. By that same thinking, I am running Cat6 cables throughout my house, even though I never intend to connect land line phones. Again, why not? If I or a future owner changed plans, it would cost 100x as much to retrofit.

Going on the theory that my own inspector did require the radon vent pipe - as I wrote before, it's been a while since that stage of construction and I don't recall - I'm uncertain if he will in the future require an actual radon test before issuing an occupancy permit. My hazy understanding is that it will be up to me whether I desire to do the test and complete the system by wiring up a fan to the pipe in my attic, post-certification. That is why I was surprised that you seem to be completing your system at this early stage.

Dave Lotte wrote:Another point i would like to make - try not to upset your inspector any more than you have to. He is the one person that can make your life miserable...

Absolutely! In a conventional build, so long as you follow the rules and baring any corruption or gross incompetence from the inspector, a builder can be reasonably confident of success in his project. Even an owner/builder; just do your homework, cross your "t"s, and dot your "i"s. But with an unconventional build like ours, we are totally dependent on our building official's good graces. It shouldn't be that way, but it is. Why it shouldn't be that way is a political discussion for another forum. But if you are lucky enough to get a cooperative inspector, then cultivate and protect that relationship at all costs. Pick and choose your battles. Smile at all of the extra hoops you will be forced to jump through. It is just the price of doing business.

In my case, I had a building official who was both competent and accommodating. And that was not by luck! Before I even purchased property, I shopped my building plans to officials in four jurisdictions. Based on their reactions, I chose which lot to buy.

Unfortunately, it has taken me sooo long to advance my project (my own fault) that my inspector is now long gone from that job. I will have a new building official to deal with when I finally near completion and require more inspections, and then will have to take my chances on an "unknown quantity." Well, not totally unknown, as I did make some small progress a few years ago - installing photovoltaic panels on the incomplete structure - that required a permit and inspection. The building official seemed reasonable and competent enough during that brief interaction. Fingers crossed!

Blazing trails in disabled homesteading

Dave Lotte

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posted 4 weeks ago

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For those of you keeping track of the thermal performance of this house, here is an infrared thermal imaging update.

The first 3 pictures are for those who say " you don't need to insulate your floor - the ground will keep it warm...
# 1. - 7 inch- R30 foam sitting on the floor at a comfy 52 F. Room temperature.
#2 - sheet plastic over radon venting ( little to no insulation value) - sitting at 51 F.
#3 - gravel floor with sheet plastic on top - sitting at 48.5 F.

You HAVE to thermally isolate the entire house to be able to control the temperature !

Next 2 pictures is the reason why i bought this camera. After running for more than a year non-stop...
One ceiling fan is running at 77 F ( good ?)
The other ceiling fan which has now been shut off was running at 113 F ( not good ).

Then there is the surprise heat plume from the dehumdifier blowing across the R30 foam sheet. Not only did it heat up the foam as seen in the next 5 pictures, but it also warmed up the half pail of gravel 6 feet away ( see temp readings on pictures )

Last 2 are me in my work boots - after 10 seconds on the foam sheet. Holds the heat nicely.

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Build it because they say you can't.
18 different architect's that said " you can't do that "
Google " undergroundandlovinit "

Dave Lotte

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Location: Ontario Canada

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posted 3 weeks ago

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Another 15 hour - 3 day long weekend, time to get more stuff done ! Pictures in order of operation.

1. Realized i did not want a sump pump pit in the middle of my back room floor, and since i have to put in a new sealed unit anyways, time to move it.
Capped the 60 gallon drum that has been dry for 3 years, dug a small pit for the new pump pit, then dug a small conecting trench and inserted a small length of drain pipe conecting the two. Ready for the pump !
DONE ✔

2. Installed the radon gas barrier in back porch. Then air sealed every nook and cranny. Back porch ready for radon inspection !
DONE ✔

Since the back porch was done, wanted to see how the floor Styrofoam lined up with the footings .... perfect fit ! ✔

3. Finished installing the rest of the radon barrier in the main house, then started to air seal EVERYTHING around the main room. 1/3 of the floor area of the house - ready for radon inspection !
DONE ✔

4. Installed the radon gas venting stack up to roof level. Radon gas fan is now on order and on its way - then i can vent it outside. Sucking out all the moisture under the plastic continuously. ✔

5. Last but not least, Keeping an eye on the humidity, last 3 readings inside the house. 70 % down to 54 % down to 38 %. Cool ✔

After spending 5 hours crawling and sliding around on the floor..... time for a rest 😁

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Build it because they say you can't.
18 different architect's that said " you can't do that "
Google " undergroundandlovinit "

Dave Lotte

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posted 2 weeks ago

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For my Friday and Saturday, 10 hours in and chocked full of " HOLY SHIT!!! " moments. 😁

30 foot hydro pole installed 6 feet deep, and ready to be wired. Not very many pictures, as this is about the limit of my crazy ... 😲

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Build it because they say you can't.
18 different architect's that said " you can't do that "
Google " undergroundandlovinit "

Dave Lotte

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Location: Ontario Canada

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posted 2 weeks ago

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Another 4 hours in, for a 14 hour weekend, and the top of the pole is ready for inspection.

Now to dig a trench and install the wire into the house and i can call in the inspector.

Baby steps.

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Build it because they say you can't.
18 different architect's that said " you can't do that "
Google " undergroundandlovinit "

Dave Lotte

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Location: Ontario Canada

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posted 1 week ago

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Radon gas fan is in !

Wanted to see what would happen to the humidity levels in the home, so i installed the fan, and turned off the dehumidifier.
After 12 hours, only a 3 point rise in humidity. Not bad, considering its not all sealed down yet.
Second picture - at 74 % - is the air being vented out.

Really glad i saved the foam for the window inserts, as the 8 inch thick, lite weight, solid blocks makes a great stepping stair too work on !

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Build it because they say you can't.
18 different architect's that said " you can't do that "
Google " undergroundandlovinit "

Jay Angler

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Location: Pacific Wet Coast

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posted 1 week ago

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I've been working on the ceiling of a trailer Hubby wants to use for material storage and long material cutting. Using whatever's at hand to get me to a good working height has been crucial. The safety board wouldn't have approved of some of the systems... but I did my best to work very safely.

Your stack of foam blocks would have been very useful!

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