permaculture morals discussion

  I should say an immoral dash at th emoral side of permaculture.     
  paul wheaton brings up sharing, in his, "chicken eats slugs" video.
      I used to drop small slugs i found under stones down the throat of a young thrush i was trying to bring on. It lived through the experience but died when i went back to boring school and had to leave its care to my mother. I have a foto some where of me as a nearly child with the trush and maybe a slug. i could start with a photo of me at fouteen and work up to one of me aat fifty five.
    The, share your stuff, lark is a bit like the don't be a coward and lick the frozen iron bar one, a way of convincing you to do something that is more fun for others than for you.  You act soft hearted and you will have every penny taken off you and get sneered at into the bargain and you will lose your, turn and run for it skills and your fighting skills and as it is survival of the fittest, that means you are dead, though some would like to feed us the myth that you can trust others, trust in me was the snakes line to mowgli when he was trying to eat him. It is better to try it with a good dose of caution.  Be very careflull about generosity it seems to bring endless enemies.

     I read one fairy tale on the subject, about a rich man who lived next to a poor one and was always asking the poor man for a bit of sharing, type, could you just  digg my garden today, i feel a bit off this week, the poor man was so busy helping the rich one, his own things did not prosper and when at last he asked for help the rich neighbore did not turn out to be the sort of person who let others use him.
        So i say, keep your sword sharp and your pistols clean metaforically talking your verbal arms and your wits about you and be carefull about sharing,  it seems to cause more resentment than anything else and means you chose friends because you are sorry for them instead of those you judge they will make good friends, your good judgement gets carried off in the wind,  it is a short road to doing for yourself.

   i read in a book written by gloria stienem that women should not drop out of the system as they had never been part of it. JUst look all around you at the buildings in a city and the businesses all constructed by men the airoplanes boats etc and tell yourself that you can't pretend women have been in it, with all the sights that tell you the countary.  It is women  moment to go on learning how to get into it an dkeep in it, that means fighting for recognition being in the jungle.  Well what gloria stienem says about not dropping out goes for not beign charitable , women  have always worked without pay and in charitable work among other thinings like the house , the skills women still seem to lack, not many of them get into the top posts are getting people to do the right thing by you, not those of learning to share, and you will find plenty of men who want to teach you who already do things for nothing, the art of sharing tha tis a wonderfull new discovery for them tell them not to teach their sisters to suck eggs doing things for nothing is something women understand well a lot of them.  Women  be mean.  rose macaskie.   

Personally I have never experienced anything negative in the Sharing or Gift economy.  I have also never found a need to be mean as a woman. 

in some ways i feel that sharing is one of the most important things that one can do..man or woman...sharing your self, your stuff, your knowledge etc.

however..recently I have found that sharing information can have a real downside..sometimes people think you are a know it all when you share information, rather than people wanting to learn and grow from your experiences..or your learning from your mistakes..they resent what you have to say and think you are a know it all.

i do find that with like minded people..such as on a forum as this.. you can learn a lot from people ..and you'll find very generous people willing to share..and i have learned so much from so many people on this forum and am so grateful for their sharing.

however..when i try to take these experiences out of this group ..into  the "real world" out there and share it with others..maybe not so like minded..i do feel that they don't want to hear..resent..and often will chastise you for sharing..

sometimes maybe it is just the attitude that we share with? I know that a lot of the knowledge and experience on a board like this could "save the world"..but ..often the world doesn't want to be saved.

Brenda Groth wrote:
often the world doesn't want to be saved.

So true.  There are solutions to most of the problems the world is facing right now, but often people aren't interested in the solutions presented by permaculture, because they aren't perceived as "technology" - not atomic and shiny enough. 

The poor neighbor and rich neighbor from the story weren't doing what I would call "sharing"...the name I would give that activity is "exploitation."

For if a thing is not diminished by being shared with others, it is not rightly owned if it is only owned and not shared. -Augustine of Hippo

That caveat is important. A thing that is diminished by sharing, is something that one can rightly defend from exploitation.

It's a fuzzy line, though. I've had meals that were less nourishing for being shared more thinly, but any diminution on the physical plane was more than made up for by the improvements in the meal due to more company. There are people who can borrow tools and, overall, improve their condition through use, but not very many. Still, it's a good principle.

I think that chickens sharing a slug improve it in the same way a pair of scissors would improve it, albeit a little less humanely, from the slug's perspective.

As to women being mean: my girlfriend feels that she fails to perform her gender role when she doesn't participate in status games of the sort in that story of the rich man and the poor man (except with male and female, rather than rich and poor). Some women escape this by being genuinely mean, but I've met far more who find freedom by resisting exploitation and generally being good people. I think the important thing is not to be afraid that you will be labeled as mean by institutional sexism, i.e. not taking the requirements of femininity to be a sufficient reason to be nice.

     
    In a book of the English writer Muriel Sparks she says that some people seem to think that you live to be beautiful, like character wise, as well as physically so lots of people are merely posing for the cameras, looking sweet without actually bothering to waste their time on others for example, the importance of seeming earnest,  looking serious when they are not, which is going for beautiful dignity, for another. If one stage away from looking beautiful full of grace is to actually give up time or money to people, then actually imposing on others whether others like it or not is maybe another. The down side of taking that option is that you may be being merely bossy and domineering without any good reason to take the reins, are you the cart pulling the horse aor the horse pulling the cart.
  The “Son Goku” answer , for those who have watched Japanese children’s cartoons, is that if we are all dueling, then things will equal out, it all comes out in the wash type idea.

      It is one thing to oblige people to hear you out, if you don’t they form their own opinion of your ideas and those opinions are often not very complimentary so it is mere self defense to oblige people to hear you out. It is another though to oblige them to accept your ideas, you have to be domineering to make people hear you oot or even to write at lenght and of seriouse topics it takes a bit of belief in yourself or at least a bit of i will stick out my neck because it is braver, it is another to oblige others to agree with you and some pretend that if you make them hear you out you are obliging others to change. It is not true i have meet people who try to oblige people to change, they use menace, coercion, and trying to weaken your position either by getting you to give your money away or by reducing your credit morally or intellectual as it is called .  if you are not using coercion and have not tried systematically to weaken the other person, don't let people say you are imposing on them.
        Ruling classes for example weaken the working class by seeing to it they are working too hard to study or have no opportunities to study. Men do that to women they read the newspaper while women attend the children.
You oblige children for example to obey you so there is a place for even that it is always a question of degrees that make something ok and definitely not ok.
    Maybe if you tell people things in real life you lose the friends you have, with any luck your new self brings in other types of friends and a loss of friends is an interim phase. Maybe it is just weak to want friends.
      I suppose each person has, mentally, an idea of in which situation it seems proper for them to take the reins  or try to, such as with children and each person has others in which such conduct does not seem appropriate to them like with their own age group.
      When you take the option of holding your own instead of say, putting people at their ease you become uglier in a way. It is tough, you lose friends, maybe it is straight.
 
        I think that men are more often bought up to impose and women to wait for the right moment to explain a topic, and it is easier to fill a role you have been brought up to fill you have adjust your self image and ideas about what is satisfying in life to fit in with the role you prepare yourself to fill.  If you wait for the right moment you are suffering from the delusion it will come if you have not been able to talkl already it is probable that that is because the other person has cut you short and if they have done that before they are likely to go on doing it.  The delusion that right moment will come, is a form of procrastination, procrastination is like water, it  seems soft and is the devil of a strong way of changing peoples conduct, either by suggesting that they will get an opportunity to talk later or by suggesting you will pay them back the favour later  when you have no intention of doing so, you can get them to accept things they did not mean to accept. My sister says, “softly, softly, catch your monkey”.  Often it is, the monkeys who softly catches you.
      Freud waited till the first Friday after his marriage, let his wife set out the Sabbath meal, if I remember right, to tell her he had no intention of letting anyone celebrate the Sabbath in his house. He felt a complete right to dictate to her, incredible, and i think normal, though it is an idea about the different role of the sexes which goes largely unmentioned to women, you don't tell the sheep you are going to cut their throats.

    My experience is that there is no fair argument that does not get used by those that are abusive, as the rich man in the story was, so it is right to put people on their guard.

      My experiences of sharing meals, once i was on the charitable line rather than the socially sensible, watch out for yourself line, have been horrible, charity make me lose my good sense when choosing who to take the meals with and the charitable, who you come into contact with when you take the charitable road, are only more bossy than the uncharitable, they are so sure they have right on their side.
      Why in these times of so many toughies of sharks of the different world, these times a long way from hippydom, have we forgotten how oppressive the religious have always had a tendency to be if you don't keep a weatherd eye on them.
  The religious traditionally ask the poor to share,so  making a class of subpeople, and permaculture nears religion. It was when the poor asked for a decent wage that things got less awful for them, when before socialism charitable ideas existed and they consist in asking people to spread it thin things did not work out well for the poor. The spread seems to get less and less when you extol the virtues o f sharing, it is when you get the poor to demand more spread that were there is a will there is a way started to work  and more spread is found. Let’s not forget the, after the French revolution, and thanks to it and the ideas that were then in the air lessons. agri rose macaskie. 

I was raised by my father, who taught me not to be a borrower and stressed that if I did lend, not to expect the item back, because if you did and they did not return it or it was returned damaged, that it could cause a breech in a relationship. My grandfather was a doer and always said that 10 percent of the people do 90% of the work and 90% of the people do 10% of the work. I am a very independent woman, while very knowledgeable and loving to learn all the time, I am also very giving and hard working, generally pulling more than my fair share. I have worked alongside men and physically pulled my weight.

With that said, I have found over the years that there is a great measure of truth in what both my father and grandfather said, which I have difficulty with in considering intentional communities or time banks, etc. I have loaned tools or books and not received them back or had them ruined. I have given of time and skills, not been paid as was agreed, as well as giving of time and labor to help, with others expecting that I will always be there to do for them, yet they have not been as helpful. Being independent, I generally dont ask for help and I dont like to borrow from others.

I have researched communes and intentional communities over the years, loving the idea of working with others to build a like minded community/ village, but after decades of experiences with people who seemed like minded on many points, I have a great fear or reluctance to extend myself to such a situation, knowing that even with people that seem kindred, I have been repeatedly burned, stolen from, taken advantage of, exploited. I have worked while others did nothing, I have given of my best while others gave of their worst, I have been ridiculed by co-workers for working well, saying to slow down that I was making them look bad.

My grandfather also said the old proverb, "If you give a man a fish, you feed him for a day, but if you teach a man to fish, he can feed himself for life." While I have tried to apply this proverb, I have sadly found that there are few who want to stand on their own feet, but would rather have you feed them. I also find at forums, such as this one, a different world than that of the real world. While people here give and take of their experiences, knowledge, achievements and mistakes, it is less so IRL - in real life. In real life, most dont care about the knowledge that produced the organic herbs and foods that made the incredible meal they just ate, saying that they would like to do that, but really they dont.

It's sad your experiences have been so negative, Kathryn.    I think the best attitude toward sharing is that helping others is its own reward, and not to expect return.  If you do, you may be disappointed.  If you don't, you may be pleasantly surprised!  I have so rarely been burned after sharing that I don't think I can remember any specific instances.  Maybe I haven't been sharing enough is all! 

Ludi, Not all experiences have been "negative", and I was not expecting anything in return for sharing or giving. But when I have loaned tools or books, many have been stolen or broken, which I have had to replace. Twice, when I have created websites for friends with their businesses, as soon as I got the site up and running, they bailed on paying or trading, a third guy bailed on the photos for his site, so I am tempted now, instead of dealing business on a persons word, which used to mean something to make sure everything is paid for in advance. I really hate going into a relationship or business deal thinking that I am going to get screwed.

As to sharing or giving, I do it regardless, not expecting anything back, it is my nature. But in many of these cases the people I have helped begin coming to me for everything they need, pouring out sob stories for help and that becomes a different matter. If I help someone with their groceries and utilities and then the next day drop their child off from a meeting, to find them having a steak grilling party with coolers full of beer, I am less likely to want to help them again.

Hi all,

  I should say an immoral dash at the moral side of permaculture.   
  paul wheaton brings up sharing, in his, "chicken eats slugs" video.

this fair share ethic as i understand it, is very much discussed, and interpreted in different ways. in the beginning bill mollison described the three underlaying ethics for pc as:
- earth care
- people care
- share the surplus/limit growth

later it became just 'fair share', and often explained with examples of timebanks etc.

but this limiting growth thing is still my take on it. the whole perpetual growth myth is what is justifying a fast depletion of earths resources. If you look at our (western)ecological footprint it is so much higher than the rest of the world. Right now 20% of the worlds population is using 80% of its resources. If everybody would use as much as us we would need 4 planets to support that.

i think this fair share is more about how much of the surplus we should accumulate per region. For me being ethical about using my fair share wouldnt necessarily mean we all have to become communes of intentional communities where everything is shared, or loaned.

I think when regions (all over the world) start (re)localizing their food production, waste treatment, energy production, in fact localize their economics and use whats around them, everybody would automatically use more or less their fair share. not that there wouldnt be trade over distance, self sufficiency is not necessary, i think local resilience is.

anyway, sorry, got a bit sidetracked. What i meant to say was that i notice a lot of people always being a bit wary when discussing 'the third ethic' as some call it. because the suggestion might be made that we (have to) start sharing our stuff, while my take is more on 'not taking more than is responsible', and setting up local and resilient permaculture systems to provide for our needs would achieve that, i think.

My little village seems to have it's own rules on sharing, and they seem to be something like this.

Tools are never shared, you are supposed to have your own.

Meat is never shared.

Surplus fruit is always shared, though you may to invited round to pick it yourself.  If most of the village has a crop failure and you are the only one with, say, grapes, you are expected to share. 

You never ask for, or give, help to pick olives.  Everyone has their own trees, and everyone picks their own.  They may, however, ask for help with things like loading up their sacks onto their tractors, or for those without tractors, they might ask for help transporting them to the press, as they are all getting a bit old and the sacks are heavy.  You will find a bottle or two of olive oil on your doorstep if you do help them. 

Anyone with a chainsaw may be asked to saw up logs for an old lady without one, but only during the cold months else she can wait til her family visits.

You don't scrounge lifts to town with people unless they are going anyway or it's for an important hospital appointment, or it's just before christmas and an old lady wants to get in lots of stuff to cook up a big meal for all her family who are about to turn up, in which case you arrange a day with them and do your own shopping the same day so they don't feel like you've gone out of your way for them.

Anything like an old fridge may be scrounged for spares, and in return they will donate old newspapers and possibly bantam chicks.

If you have a vehicle and drive to fetch water from the font, you are expected to collect other people's empty bottles and fill them up for them too. 

You can cut grass for hay from virtually anyone just in return for keeping it cut!  If you are English, they will all troop out and help the first time you do it so you learn how to do it properly.  After that you're on you're own. 

If you have a donkey you are expected to bring her into the village regularly so they can see her and listen to her sing.

If anybody needs help urgently with anything whatsoever, they are entitled to knock at the door and you are expected to drop everything and help.  They do the same for you!

Older kids, from ten upwards, are expected to help anyone with anything if they are asked, and are suitably rewarded with icecreams, money, presents at christmas time, and an excess of hugs and kisses.  It is the responsibility of everyone in the village to raise the kids as part of that village. 

Money is never begged or borrowed or offered for services rendered, except to children who have been asked to help with a chore. 

Cuttings, seedlings etc are free for the asking.

The only thing I haven't figured out yet is how to get a key for the communal wood-fired oven.  I think they are normally passed from mother to daughter and I don't seem to qualify.  Or maybe I just have to pluck up the courage to ask if I can borrow one and get a copy cut... 

im not sure i understand the idea of sharing in a permaculture/social sense, but just wanted to comment on how sharing goes on here where i am among my neighbors(rural, backwoods sort, a bit remote). if you as a new person extend a friendly hand and get to know people(wave! stop to shoot the breeze!) then they will share produce, trade chore help, recycle stuff around etc. if you prove to be handy and capable and show some personal responsibilty you are let into the inner circle. but if you behave snobby, shown unconcern for the community(for instance one neighbor is profligate with their water use and has run a well dry, and affected flow of other nearby wells), are cruel to your animals, pissy about gun use etc, you are basically ignored/shunned.

btw, the second question that newbies get asked up here(after where did you come from) are what kind of guns do you own. we are at least 30 minutes from police response(if the cop is already on our road)--people know they will have to deal themselves, either with criminal activity, or wild animal problems(bears and coug). if you have guns you are halfway into the innercircle, and that inner circle knows who to count on to have each others back. just sayin its been interesting to watch this dynamic up here. good things come to those who prove handy--they may be loner nut jobs, ha, but i have to say i do respect this winnowing system. and really, a lot of quirkiness/different lifestyle choices are tolerated, but dishonesty is culled very quickly. have to say thats refreshing.

Wyldthang, that kind of community I could handle, especially the dishonesty culling. I treat others with respect and hope for the same from them, but if people lie and I find out or catch them in it, that pretty much does it for me. I very much value honesty. Oh, and I have guns.

Kathryn wrote:
Wyldthang, that kind of community I could handle, especially the dishonesty culling. I treat others with respect and hope for the same from them, but if people lie and I find out or catch them in it, that pretty much does it for me. I very much value honesty. Oh, and I have guns.

you're in!

Kathryn McCoy wrote:Ludi, Not all experiences have been "negative", and I was not expecting anything in return for sharing or giving. But when I have loaned tools or books, many have been stolen or broken, which I have had to replace. Twice, when I have created websites for friends with their businesses, as soon as I got the site up and running, they bailed on paying or trading, a third guy bailed on the photos for his site, so I am tempted now, instead of dealing business on a persons word, which used to mean something to make sure everything is paid for in advance. I really hate going into a relationship or business deal thinking that I am going to get screwed.

As to sharing or giving, I do it regardless, not expecting anything back, it is my nature. But in many of these cases the people I have helped begin coming to me for everything they need, pouring out sob stories for help and that becomes a different matter. If I help someone with their groceries and utilities and then the next day drop their child off from a meeting, to find them having a steak grilling party with coolers full of beer, I am less likely to want to help them again.

I have also been a sharing and helpful person whenever I could, all my life. I am like your father - I do not loan anything unless I am all right with simply giving it away to that person. If I help someone I do not expect anything. That means I do not expect them to respect the fact that I have given them something and to NOT come tomorrow asking for more. I am a big girl and I know how to say no. These are often the people who need the most. Maybe they have never had anyone they could trust to help them out. If I was building resentment toward people who had not behaved in the way I wanted them to, then I would have my first clue that I HAD had some expectations of that person. In the steak grilling party scenario, do you know for sure that the needy person had bought all that? Did you ask? Most importantly, were you invited? LOL And there is nothing wrong with getting paid half or so for a job that has been contracted. You can only get screwed in a relationship or business deal if you allow it. Perhaps by having expectations which should probably be discussed ahead of time? Just sayin...