Living in Anjou , France,
For the many not for the few
http://www.permies.com/t/80/31583/projects/Permie-Pennies-France#330873
Idle dreamer
Seeking a long-term partner to establish forest garden. Keen to find that person and happy to just make some friends. http://www.permies.com/t/50938/singles/Male-Edinburgh-Scotland-seeks-soulmate
Shawn Harper wrote:I personally am inclined to fulfill my biological primary directive and reproduce. I would also love to adopt those unfortunate children whom are not wanted by others, but... I will probably not for several legal reasons. First, I don't want to deal with my choice of lifestyle to be under the microscope more than it already will be and risk losing my own children to an over zealous social worker. Second, due to government regulations in my area; one must be rather wealthy (fees) and have a large home (a separate room for each child that is adopted) to adopt. Those being the major reasons there are a couple dozen minor ones, but if those two were removed I would rather work though the minor difficulties not listed here.
Idle dreamer
Seeking a long-term partner to establish forest garden. Keen to find that person and happy to just make some friends. http://www.permies.com/t/50938/singles/Male-Edinburgh-Scotland-seeks-soulmate
Rene Nijstad wrote: I would personally rather see thoughtful parents having more kids, who they raise to be aware, to be problem solving, earth minded, helpful and friendly persons than to see mainly mindless expansion of the population at large.
Idle dreamer
Idle dreamer
Rene Nijstad wrote: In my belief a single person should never be forced to behave in such a way that he or she is held personally responsible for the aggregate level.
Idle dreamer
Rene Nijstad wrote:Oh boy, that escalates fast
Rene Nijstad wrote:I think there are two levels. The personal level which is important to a single (free) person, and an aggregate level of a community as a whole. In my belief a single person should never be forced to behave in such a way that he or she is held personally responsible for the aggregate level.
Rene Nijstad wrote:
So for all women who want kids, to try to raise them to be part of a solution for the world, on which we personally have only limited effect, I think, we need to be encouraging. It's a difficult job and I applaud anyone wanting to try it. I am not going to judge a child wish negatively because there are 'already too many humans'. It's not the number of humans by itself that creates problems, it's how these humans behave.
Seeking a long-term partner to establish forest garden. Keen to find that person and happy to just make some friends. http://www.permies.com/t/50938/singles/Male-Edinburgh-Scotland-seeks-soulmate
Seeking a long-term partner to establish forest garden. Keen to find that person and happy to just make some friends. http://www.permies.com/t/50938/singles/Male-Edinburgh-Scotland-seeks-soulmate
Nicole Alderman wrote:
I also think it's really important to be as prepared as possible before having a child. A child is a responsibility, not just a biological urge (like Tyler and Neil, I never really felt the biological urge to have children, though I know I wanted two. Perhaps it has something to do with having Aspergers? I love children and have always wanted to be a mother, but the crazy hormones didn't really happen to me...). We waited five years to have my son, making sure my husband had a good job; we had a safe place for them to grow; I was able to stay home to raise them; we had money saved up to pay for unexpected medical expenses; and we would be able to feed me (while pregnant and nursing) and them healthy foods so they could be as healthy as possible. Of course, we could have been more prepared, and not everyone has the same priorities as us, but I think trying to do the best you can for your children is important.
Destiny Hagest wrote:... is the impact your offspring's life will have on resources worth it? I guess I just can't see validating a life that way though, we're so much more than just the air we breathe and the food we eat....
R Ranson wrote:I think it's more that I like it when potential parents take this kind of thing into account. So many people I know don't before they start making babies.
Like my friend there, she's not taking into account her financial status, her support network, all sorts of other things. Or at least it doesn't look like that from my point of view. From my point of view, her motivation is purely biological. Whereas my considerations are too much the other way. I want first a stable financial situation, stable everything before a child comes into my life.
Somewhere between these two is what I feel is healthy... at least for those in a situation where having a child is a choice. A conscientious consideration of the impact that a child has on one's life and the globe, but also understanding and acceptance that it is a biological ... something. Need dosen't fit. Nor urge. I don't know the word here. But to say that we can overcome our biological compulsion to reproduce belittles us as a species. It makes us less than the animal that we are as humans. I think... I feel that it does us a disservice to say we can simply overcome our biology simply because some bloke 24 thousand years ago called us 'rational animals'.
Nicole Alderman wrote:
It's also a good thing, too, to adopt, and volunteer in schools, and help as many children as possible to reach their full potential. I think it's more than reasonable to have two kids (one to "replace" you, one to "replace" your spouse). This way you don't add to the population so much as maintain it. This was my parent's reasoning for having two, and my husband and mine for--hopefully--having two.
Nicole Alderman wrote:As for not having any children because the world is bound to be a horrible place, I have to disagree. I think every life is valuable. Just as I wouldn't abort a child who had Downs Syndrome or autism or is blind.
Nicole Alderman wrote: Each of us has the choice to see happiness and joy and solutions in life. I notice many in poorer countries are happier than those here in America who have all their needs met. Yet, if all you see is doom and gloom, it might be wise not to have a child and share that sadness with them.
Nicole Alderman wrote:I also think it's really important to be as prepared as possible before having a child. A child is a responsibility, not just a biological urge (like Tyler and Neil, I never really felt the biological urge to have children, though I know I wanted two. Perhaps it has something to do with having Aspergers?
Nicole Alderman wrote: I love children and have always wanted to be a mother, but the crazy hormones didn't really happen to me...). We waited five years to have my son, making sure my husband had a good job; we had a safe place for them to grow; I was able to stay home to raise them; we had money saved up to pay for unexpected medical expenses; and we would be able to feed me (while pregnant and nursing) and them healthy foods so they could be as healthy as possible. Of course, we could have been more prepared, and not everyone has the same priorities as us, but I think trying to do the best you can for your children is important.
Seeking a long-term partner to establish forest garden. Keen to find that person and happy to just make some friends. http://www.permies.com/t/50938/singles/Male-Edinburgh-Scotland-seeks-soulmate
Living in Anjou , France,
For the many not for the few
http://www.permies.com/t/80/31583/projects/Permie-Pennies-France#330873
Idle dreamer
Neil Layton wrote:
With respect, that conclusion assumes that current human populations are sustainable. By most metrics, they are not. In terms of food, if everyone went vegetarian (which isn't going to happen, judging by the howls when someone mentions the word "vegan" even on a web site frequented by people supposedly committed to sustainability), we could support up to nine or ten billion on our current arable land, but much of that is being lost to desertification, salinisation and so on, so maintaining even that level of production seems grossly optimistic.
Neil Layton wrote:
Nicole Alderman wrote:As for not having any children because the world is bound to be a horrible place, I have to disagree. I think every life is valuable. Just as I wouldn't abort a child who had Downs Syndrome or autism or is blind.
That's a separate question. We're discussing overpopulation, not eugenics.
Neil Layton wrote:
So, it's only okay to have kids if you can be unremittingly happy around them, even in the face of ecological collapse (which is real, and happening now, not me being "negative": that we have lost half the world's wild animals in 40 years is not negativity, but a fact, and the same applies to climate change, loss of arable land and so on) as a result of, among other things, having kids? I don't follow your logic here.
Neil Layton wrote:(Oh, and I don't "have Aspergers": it's not something you can take away from me and still have the same person afterwards, but that is also another discussion).
Neil Layton wrote:
This is interesting. On the one hand, it's possible to take a position where it's at least more acceptable to have kids when one can bring them up, at least as children, to have a lower-impact lifestyle, but at the same time you need the income and savings to give them a high-impact lifestyle. Surely this is a fallacy? This says nothing, of course, of the impact they will have as adults, making their own decisions.
Idle dreamer
Nicole Alderman wrote:Should your (or mine, etc) parents not have had you, since our world is so overpopulated?
Idle dreamer
Casie Becker wrote:
Neil Layton wrote:
With respect, that conclusion assumes that current human populations are sustainable. By most metrics, they are not. In terms of food, if everyone went vegetarian (which isn't going to happen, judging by the howls when someone mentions the word "vegan" even on a web site frequented by people supposedly committed to sustainability), we could support up to nine or ten billion on our current arable land, but much of that is being lost to desertification, salinisation and so on, so maintaining even that level of production seems grossly optimistic.
Off topic, but do some research on mob grazing and other responsible animal husbandry techniques. But proper animal management can actually reverse desertification and create arable land in marginal landscapes. It also reduces the demand we place on the more arable land because we are able to obtain calories from marginal landscapes. Feel free to open a topic to discuss the many good reasons to be vegetarian. I could probably think of a dozen or more off the top of my head, and I'm not a vegetarian. The idea that raising livestock is bad for the planet only applies to irresponsible animal management.
Casie Becker wrote:Actually on topic now. A child who is raised understanding how responsible land and animal management can increase soil fertility and productivity, repair the water cycle, regenerate groundwater supplies.. ect is far more likely to be not just less of a burden on the planet, but actually an improving asset.
Casie Becker wrote:
I say all this as someone who made the decision early in life not to have children of my own. Family circumstances as they are, I'm now raising my sister's children. I am honestly grateful every time I see someone who has beliefs I respect raising the peers that my nieces are going to have to live with. Even when I cringe at someones beliefs, I can appreciate every less enlightened person who does their best, and gives their child a lot of love. A child who is unconditionally loved, and is raised to believe in doing their best, may be the adult to isn't afraid to improve themselves. The only people who I think shouldn't be having children are the ones that don't want the kids. That applies to people like me who make the responsible choices not to have them, and the immature or brainwashed masses who keep giving birth to kids when they don't want them.
Casie Becker wrote:
As far as biological urges to reproduce, human behavior is constantly being affected by biological factors that most of us don't reason out. I don't think anyone here is claiming to have a biological imperative,
Seeking a long-term partner to establish forest garden. Keen to find that person and happy to just make some friends. http://www.permies.com/t/50938/singles/Male-Edinburgh-Scotland-seeks-soulmate
Tyler Ludens wrote:Woo hoo - more boyfriends for everyone!
I think cultural changes could adapt to a gender imbalanced population, if that became a priority. The population is certainly imbalanced in total numbers. Human culture can be very diverse, if allowed. Some cultures have multiple genders, and many forms of partnership are seen in different cultures, such as a wife having several husbands. These are not unsolvable problems.
And I don't think anyone in this thread is advocating a Chinese-style "One Child Policy."
Seeking a long-term partner to establish forest garden. Keen to find that person and happy to just make some friends. http://www.permies.com/t/50938/singles/Male-Edinburgh-Scotland-seeks-soulmate
Nicole Alderman wrote:
Neil Layton wrote:
Nicole Alderman wrote:As for not having any children because the world is bound to be a horrible place, I have to disagree. I think every life is valuable. Just as I wouldn't abort a child who had Downs Syndrome or autism or is blind.
That's a separate question. We're discussing overpopulation, not eugenics.
I brought this up because you said having children was "sentencing your children to living in a world even more messed up than this one (and possibly one really, really, ****ed up). I don't think or feel that's a responsible action." I interpreted this as you saying it wasn't worth living in the world if it were messed up. That argument--as I interpreted it--sounds very similar to the argument to not have children who are blind, etc, because that makes life not worth living. If we don't have children because we don't think it'd be worthwhile for them to live in the disabled world, it's much the same as saying it's not worthwhile for them to live in their "disabled" bodies and minds. Once again, though, I might have misinterpreted your argument.
Nicole Alderman wrote:
Neil Layton wrote:
So, it's only okay to have kids if you can be unremittingly happy around them, even in the face of ecological collapse (which is real, and happening now, not me being "negative": that we have lost half the world's wild animals in 40 years is not negativity, but a fact, and the same applies to climate change, loss of arable land and so on) as a result of, among other things, having kids? I don't follow your logic here.
Perhaps "happy" isn't the best word. "Hopeful" would be better? Perhaps a better question would be: Should your (or mine, etc) parents not have had you, since our world is so overpopulated? I think your life is worthwhile, and I think my son's is too. But, that's my values. I think we all fit somewhere a little different on the scale of earth's health vs people's right to live.
Nicole Alderman wrote:
Neil Layton wrote:(Oh, and I don't "have Aspergers": it's not something you can take away from me and still have the same person afterwards, but that is also another discussion).
(Total side note here, I think of my self as an "aspie" not as "having aspergers," but I tend to use different terms based upon what audience I'm talking to...)
Nicole Alderman wrote:
Neil Layton wrote:
This is interesting. On the one hand, it's possible to take a position where it's at least more acceptable to have kids when one can bring them up, at least as children, to have a lower-impact lifestyle, but at the same time you need the income and savings to give them a high-impact lifestyle. Surely this is a fallacy? This says nothing, of course, of the impact they will have as adults, making their own decisions.
I don't think having a stable income and a house as necessarily being high-impact. For example, aside from my husband currently relying on a fuel-efficient car to get to and from work, we don't buy much, and most of what we buy is used--including my house, which is very small. Our money goes to paying off our house and buying food until we can produce more of our own. Other's can a similarly stable job and even lower impact life.
Seeking a long-term partner to establish forest garden. Keen to find that person and happy to just make some friends. http://www.permies.com/t/50938/singles/Male-Edinburgh-Scotland-seeks-soulmate
Neil Layton wrote: the low cultural value placed on women, which is a whole separate discussion.
Idle dreamer
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