Breeding Araucaria trees for increased production/growth rate.

Hello all,

I am currently working 50+ hours a week saving for some land (hopefully in Australia) to get a desert greening/Agroforestry project off the ground. The goal being to breed highly resilient, productive and fast(er) growing Araucaria hybrids (Angustifolia x Bidwillii) for Human food production and improve the local climate for all the other animals while i'm at it. I'm already experimenting with permaculture here in England on a very small scale on a soggy little allotment plot and am having really promising results, Iv'e been completely obsessed with all aspects of Permaculture for 2-3 years now (I'm 23). I guess the point of this thread is to chat to other like minded folk and soak up any knowledge or advice you guys have to offer, Completely isolated here and haven't spoken face to face with anyone else who's even remotely interested or heard of permaculture unfortunately.

SO, the plan is to get my hands on around 25 acres of dusty, droughty fairly barren land in an area with consistent-ish fog, install a modest DIY fog harvesting array which would feed a tank, this tank would then feed a drip irrigation network buried under the mulch around the various nitrogen fixing Australian natives and Araucaria saplings. There would be more to it, like on contour swales, funneling fog toward the harvesting nets with 'V' shaped rows of trees, Clay pellet seed dispersal (got that one from Masanobu Fukuoka), chop and drop, maybe establishing a coppice to produce a renewable source of Hugelkultur and biochar materials. Let me know what you guys think.

You've set yourself quite a challenge. Admirable. Where in Australia are you thinking? There plenty of dry spots here but not that many with high levels of fog.
I tried growing the bunya from seed. I put the seeds in pots, unaware of their germination habits. They did germinate but sadly didn't survive my neglect. I should have sown them in the ground I suppose as they can take a year or more to pop up above ground.

If for some reason you get stuck in England Araucaria araucana grow fantastic here. I want to plant as many as I can here once I convince people or manage to get land of my own... All I know is they are endangered and there are cultivars with larger pinones. My Chilean friend loves these trees so hopefully she might know the cultivar names. I will make sure she doesn't bring any back from Chile because that might be illegal.

I would guess they would grow well in Tasmanian as its cooler and foggier there or up in a mountainous area like they are in Chile.

I dont know much about the bunya pine has anyone bred a dwarfing variety?

Edit: Just realised you are talking about Augustifolia not araucana! I wonder if there is potential for hybrids with that though.

Thanks for the replies.

Ray South,
thank you for saying so, The way I see it is if I can get some really productive trees growing in such a way that it is commercially viable then hopefully more skeptics will see the benefits of natural farming techniques and move away from tillage, pesticides and artificial fertilizers. In regards to where in Australia i'm thinking of setting up shop, any land will do as long as it's cheap(i'm on a VERY tight budget), the beauty of what I want to do is that it is very adaptable. Sorry to hear about the Bunya seedlings, Iv'e managed to germinate a handful so far in a warm greenhouse. Funnily enough the ones that I buried instead of surface sowed not only germinated sooner but had a higher survival rate, my guess is they need a good deal of humidity when first starting off, also something that I've noticed while potting on my Araucana and Angustifolia seedlings is that they completely lack fibrous roots which makes me wonder whether they would rely quite heavily on fungal symbiosis to really thrive. If you do decide to straight sow any then I would recommend putting a heavy stone on top of the rounded end of the seed leaving plenty of room for the little guy to poke out the pointy end, if you don't weigh down the seeds they are buggers for pushing themselves out of the ground with their taproots.

Henry Jabel,
Araucana do love the UK climate don't they, I know of six just in my area 3 of which are bloody huge and healthy trees. I was in the exact same frame of mind as you in terms of wanting to plant an Araucana forest in the UK, there is a fantastic Self seeding fully mature Araucana forest in northumberland called Kyloe woods which is thriving, over 70 adult trees and countless seedlings and saplings. I would think they would grow very well in Tasmania too, from what I understand its the same as our climate just a bit warmer (might be wrong). There is a man Called Ivar Wendling in south America who has perfected a grafting technique that allows you to have very low fruiting (within reach) Angustifolia trees by taking bark patch graft from epicormic shoots high up in fruiting age trees and grafting it onto small saplings, I don't see why this wouldn't work for Bunya's and is one of the things I want to try out. Not problem haha!, they do hybridize naturally where the two species ranges cross over, the first generation hybrids grow considerably faster than either parent tree, are resistant to Phytophthora from the angustifolia genes and tend to be quite thirsty from what Iv'e been told.

Sam Williams wrote: There is a man Called Ivar Wendling in south America who has perfected a grafting technique that allows you to have very low fruiting (within reach) Angustifolia trees by taking bark patch graft from epicormic shoots high up in fruiting age trees and grafting it onto small saplings, I don't see why this wouldn't work for Bunya's and is one of the things I want to try out.

Do you get the nuts earlier with this grafting technique or does it produce at the same time but they just appear furthur down on the tree?-I am guessing the later. Obviously with most fruit trees the rootstock size determines the time of fruiting. I was hoping someone had bred a dwarf auraucaria species somewhere then I can graft what I want on to it and enjoy those while the full size trees mature.

Thanks for the really interesting information.

Hello again,

Yes you get nuts in about six years with this method which is half the time of a regular seedling Angustifolia, the resulting grafted trees also stay fairly low/compact. I'd much rather have a variety that produces early instead though to avoid the genetic disparity between rootstock and scion. The heavy cropping Angustifolia tree that I mentioned is noted for its early bearing at 8 years old. This is just speculation but my guess would be that with the genes coding for early fruiting in the Angustifolia combined with the Hybrid vigor of the offspring (being half bunya), At least some of the resulting trees would produce at a very young age. Again just speculation but it would make sense, It would also be great if the hybrid offspring took after the Bunya in terms of being monoecious but i'll have to wait and see on that one. As long as I plant enough of these trees I will have a better chance of finding two or more early bearers amongst them that I can cross to try and encourage early bearing in future generations. Your welcome, I spend most of my free time digging through Araucaria research papers online (Bit of an obsession).

I hope it works with araucana too. There are quite a few mature trees not too far from me but they are a bit on the large side to get at. If it keeps the tree small I could even have one in my garden which is a major bonus.

I guess the downside is you would have to keep pruning it (as Fukuoka observed).

Are you growing many araucana at the moment?

Sam I am going to convince some people I know to start an Araucana growing project. Let us know your email and I will keep you updated on how things turn out.  

Hello Henry, Apologies that I haven't answered you sooner I haven't visited the forum for a while. Yes I do grow my own Araucaria. Ive currently got several dozen Araucana and angustifolia seedlings that i'm planning to use as root stock for grafting. I'd love to be a part of any araucaria growing project and will freely give all information I have. my Email is samuelfwilliams1993@hotmail.com.

I also now understand how to have a small fruiting araucaria garden tree (around 6') without any pruning. from graft to fruit can be as little as 4 years, maybe even sooner if you grafted onto selected faster growing seedlings.

Sam Williams wrote:I also now understand how to have a small fruiting araucaria garden tree (around 6') without any pruning. from graft to fruit can be as little as 4 years, maybe even sooner if you grafted onto selected faster growing seedlings.

Excellent I will have to give that a go. Is that basically the same method you described as before? Hopefully I can convince my neighbour to plant one too (he had an araucana but had to cut it down as it was getting too close to the electric cable going into his house).

Hello again Henry, Yes its the same method of bark patch grafting, the difference being that when you graft from a lateral it will only grow to about 6' tall (and sideways-ish) and as long as it came from high in a mature tree it will also produce cones! Also very exciting news for me is that you can in fact obtain Orthotropic shoots from a lateral graft as the grafted tree occasionally sprouts them along its length. This make reproducing full sized trees much easier than the other method of chopping the leader off.

Just a thought, If you wanted a small monkey puzzle 'bush' in your garden and you don't have space for two then you could graft one bark patch from a male and one from a female. You would essentially have a compact self pollinating Araucaria bush. Something else I've found from peoples posts online of their grafting experiments is that grafting Araucana onto Angustifolia makes the Araucana grow much faster, It would probably cause earlier fruiting too due to partial incompatibility between rootstock and scion as with many other fruit/nut trees.

Guessing you might have read this. If not it has some interesting statistics about rooting cuttings from crown shoots with the survival rate being 88% to 100% and when they coppiced the trees 60% survived.

http://www.scielo.br/pdf/rarv/v39n1/0100-6762-rarv-39-01-0093.pdf

I havent had a chance to read it properly in detail so I may have missed something. However if I take a cutting from the top won't it achieve much the same thing as grafting? I am curious how it determines its eventual height if there appear to be no cultivated rootstocks. Does the graft itself slow the sap and makes it more dwarfing?

I also didn't know about this drink made from the nuts I will have to try and get some to see what it's like.

https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muday

Is it true that they can take up to 30yrs to yield? I want to plant a few but that’s a super long wait for a harvest. Are there any superior selected varieties out there?

Chris Holcombe wrote:Is it true that they can take up to 30yrs to yield? I want to plant a few but that’s a super long wait for a harvest. Are there any superior selected varieties out there?

Yes they can take a while as early as 20 years or late as 40 according to pfaf. Yes there appear to be cultivars with bigger pinons according to the wikipedia page it's sparse on any details beyond that though.

Wow!  Well I still think it would be worth starting a huge breeding operation to bring that time down to say 5-10yrs.  That would encourage people to start planting them.  20-40yrs are plants for the next generation.  Not many plan that far ahead I would think

well i am planning far ahead---by way of novelty planting more than a deliberate plan of action as you have going--got 6 parana pine seedlings ranging about a foot to 2 feet high plant over here in ireland and will add about 2 or 3 to that number each year till i have maybe 20 to 30 of them---my decendants  or someone  else  wise enough  to recognise what they have growing in the back field is edible ---and instead of chainsawing it down for firewood may get to snack on them.Your fog harvesting idea , read up on an odd quirky post or a pdf on the web ---under the heading of ---goodbye capetown .

What an interesting thread. I live in the land of big Araucarias (angustifolias) and never thought it was possible to breed a dwarf variety. Araucarias here are protected by law, which makes them a massive PITA if they're growing in your yard (you aren't even supposed to pull out a seedling). While I've seen trees in protected areas that are at least 300 years old, nowadays they have a natural lifespan in the urban/suburban setting of about 60-70 years, and because they have a relatively shallow root system strong winds tend to take them down quite easily when they get old (also, they drop branches, and when they are so high they can be very dangerous). You may sense a bit of grump here, the trees that were protected in the city in the 60s are now starting to fall down on houses, cars, businesses and it's getting problematic. So when you plant them consider that they don't have a really long lifespan, and if they aren't dwarfed they could become a problem in the future. That said, the wood is fabulous (they need to be protected because the native forests literally built the state I live in) and the nuts are delish.
They would do so well in a foggy area, I will need to read up more on the Australian varieties to see how they have adapted to drier climes. What an excellent initiative, I hope you have a lot of success!!

Bunya's are often planted on driveways/roadsides in NNSW - few bother to eat them.
Given that their natural range is a spot in SE QLD and a spot in NE QLD, I'd be surprised to see it grown in true desert.

Bunya's taste great and do have potential, however they're also a hassle - time to harvest, spiky sappy fruit, hard to harvest, hard to skin nuts, don't taste great raw, patchy pollination rates, only fruit heavily every 3 years, drop 20kg fruit.s
It wouldn't be the first nut tree I'd encourage someone to grow.

Hi all,
I live in Southeast Queensland and love the Bunya(Araucaria Bidwillii) species. It is arguably Australia's most iconic tree. I am an hour and a half from the Bunya Mountains, which is a rare, huge subtropical rainforest of around 28,000 acres in size and the original home and genetic epicentre of these 230 million year old giants. Brontasaurus ate and spread their seed as proven by the study of copralites, and a native satellite community of these trees exists in Atherton, North Queensland.

The trees are massive and truly a sight to behold. Due to their fog catching nature and large size, the temperature up in the Bunya Mountains is cool in summer and moderate in winter.
I grow both Bunya and Parana Pine(Araucaria Angustifolia, the Bunyas cousin) here on my property in SE QLD, however am having no success with the Monkey Puzzle(araucaria Aracauna). The Monkey Puzzle enjoys a cold climate and tends to not grow and eventually dies here in the subtropics. Also, I believe Phytopthera may be an issue(root fungus), to which the Wollemi Pine(Wollemia Nobillis), it's ancient cousin is now in the process of succumbing to unfortunately.
The monkey puzzle grows extemely well in Tasmania and Victoria(and cold parts of NSW) where it frosts and snows.

I do find though, strangely that the Parana Pine(A.Angustifolia) from Brazil grows here faster and better than the Bunya!

For anyone interested, I have developed a blog to share information about these amazing trees and their relatives, including the work of experts like Ivar Wendling-

http://dinosaurtree.blogspot.com/

Happy Planting!

This is very impressive. I did not expect anyone to be actively working to improve these.

While you're at it, can you work on Jubaea chilensis too?

Can the Araucarias be propagated via tissue culture?

I think one of the biggest hurdles would be exporting elite germplasm from their native countries.

Anyway my hat goes off to you all for pursuing such a project.

Hi Windy,
Araucaria can be propagated via tissue culture. Wollemia Nobiliis, the Wollemi Pine was an ancient tree found in a deep gorge in the Blue Mountains by Park Ranger David Noble. The tree survived millions years and specifically the last 50,000 years of destructive human burning here in Australia. It is believed, that due to an extreme lack of genetic diversity in the remaining plants, destructive human fire stick farming/mosaic burning and natural fires reduced this population to maybe one or two individual trees. Due to the valuable nature of this tree to tree enthusiasts and collectors, the material was propagated extensively via tissue culture and the resulting trees sold all over the world to satisfy demand.

Of the family Araucariaceae(in the order Pinales) you have 3 remaining genuses(Araucaria, Agathis, Wollemia).
-In the genus Araucaria there is the Bunya Pine, Hoop Pine, Parana Pine, Monkey Puzzle Tree, Klinki Pine from PNG, Norfolk Island Pine, and 15 highly threatened species from New Caledonia.
-In the genus Agathis, which are commonly known as Kauri Pine, Australia has 3(Atropurpurea, Microstachya and Robusta), Australis in NZ, and there are many others(22 species in total)in the Southern Hemisphere.
-In the genus Wollemia, there is one. Wollemia Nobilis, the Wollemi Pine, a living fossil that survived the constant burning created by destructive humans.

Agriculture is around 12,500 years old.
Homo Sapiens is around 200,000 years old.
Primates are around 50 million years old.
These trees are 240 million years old, before bees, birds, eucalypts or flowers....before the emergence of almost anything we know or recognise in our current short lives.
These trees oxygenated the earth from 0.16% oxygen in the air to levels that would allow our emergence and eventual destruction of these same trees(and ourselves).
https://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/offtrack/australian-rainforest-woods/9448170

I hope you find researching these trees interesting. They really are an ancient giant, and such a useful plant in the myriad benefits that they could provide us. Unfortunately, we are too short sighted to plant them en masse, eg in a strip farming agroforestry scenario. They collect fog and precipitation on their leaves due to their high leaf area and return that massive amount of water back to the soil, helping us in every possible way. They also limit evaporation in dry areas, of which Australia is one of the driest on the planet, and provide a massive nut crop every 3 years. When will we ever learn?? Only until it's too late I imagine.

Richard Forest wrote:Hi Windy,
Araucaria can be propagated via tissue culture. Wollemia Nobiliis, the Wollemi Pine was an ancient tree found in a deep gorge in the Blue Mountains by Park Ranger David Noble. The tree survived millions years and specifically the last 50,000 years of destructive human burning here in Australia. It is believed, that due to an extreme lack of genetic diversity in the remaining plants, destructive human fire stick farming/mosaic burning and natural fires reduced this population to maybe one or two individual trees. Due to the valuable nature of this tree to tree enthusiasts and collectors, the material was propagated extensively via tissue culture and the resulting trees sold all over the world to satisfy demand.

Of the family Araucariaceae(in the order Pinales) you have 3 remaining genuses(Araucaria, Agathis, Wollemia).
-In the genus Araucaria there is the Bunya Pine, Hoop Pine, Parana Pine, Monkey Puzzle Tree, Klinki Pine from PNG, Norfolk Island Pine, and 15 highly threatened species from New Caledonia.
-In the genus Agathis, which are commonly known as Kauri Pine, Australia has 3(Atropurpurea, Microstachya and Robusta), Australis in NZ, and there are many others(22 species in total)in the Southern Hemisphere.
-In the genus Wollemia, there is one. Wollemia Nobilis, the Wollemi Pine, a living fossil that survived the constant burning created by destructive humans.

Agriculture is around 12,500 years old.
Homo Sapiens is around 200,000 years old.
Primates are around 50 million years old.
These trees are 240 million years old, before bees, birds, eucalypts or flowers....before the emergence of almost anything we know or recognise in our current short lives.
These trees oxygenated the earth from 0.16% oxygen in the air to levels that would allow our emergence and eventual destruction of these same trees(and ourselves).
https://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/offtrack/australian-rainforest-woods/9448170

I hope you find researching these trees interesting. They really are an ancient giant, and such a useful plant in the myriad benefits that they could provide us. Unfortunately, we are too short sighted to plant them en masse, eg in a strip farming agroforestry scenario. They collect fog and precipitation on their leaves due to their high leaf area and return that massive amount of water back to the soil, helping us in every possible way. They also limit evaporation in dry areas, of which Australia is one of the driest on the planet, and provide a massive nut crop every 3 years. When will we ever learn?? Only until it's too late I imagine.

So the Wollemy pine makes an edible nut too?

Nope. Only the Bunya Pine, Parana Pine and Monkey Puzzle produce a nut(seed) large enough to be worth eating.

As i regard this posting to be the most informative yet read ,on these trees ,i would like to ask a question , recently on a random drive visit to a small town about 40 mins away , i noticed what i had always thought to be a monkey puzzle, but this tree at about 30 -to maybe more feet high ,only has the top branches ,spreading out like an umbrella.The usual lower branches as i have seen on similar sized trees --- have not been cut or trimmed away --but just seem to have dropped off---more like the parana pine shape ----which is odd ,as the parana pine has only very recently been available here in ireland ,whilest the monkey puzzle is widely planted and fairly common now as it has been available for 50 years or so---could some monkey puzzles show this type growth .

Dadiya: Your link seems broken...
You may want to get in touch with the experimental farm network, they have a similar project. https://www.experimentalfarmnetwork.org/project/12
You can also post your project there to get in touch with other people interested in breeding the A. angustifolia X A. bidwillii hybrids.

Hello, I'm from Brazil in the native region of Paraná pine (Araucaria angustifolia). I'm starting to research the monkey puzzle tree (Araucaria araucana). My advisor  developed the grafting technique for the production of pine nuts from 7 years (orthotropic branches) and 4 years (plagiotropic branches). I would like to know if someone has succeeded in grafting using the Zanette technique, 2011 for the Monkey puzzle tree, even if by interspecific grafting.

https://www.researchgate.net/deref/http%3A%2F%2Fdx.doi.org%2F10.1590%2FS0100-29452011000400040

Thanks

Some french speaking people are grafting it, with deepl you should be able to translate most of it. Otherwise don't hesitate to ask them, they are nice and helpful regarding grafting

https://www.greffer.net/?p=304

https://www.greffer.net/discussion/viewtopic.php?t=5787&start=1

Caroline Mello wrote:Hello, I'm from Brazil in the native region of Paraná pine (Araucaria angustifolia). I'm starting to research the monkey puzzle tree (Araucaria araucana). My advisor  developed the grafting technique for the production of pine nuts from 7 years (orthotropic branches) and 4 years (plagiotropic branches). I would like to know if someone has succeeded in grafting using the Zanette technique, 2011 for the Monkey puzzle tree, even if by interspecific grafting.

https://www.researchgate.net/deref/http%3A%2F%2Fdx.doi.org%2F10.1590%2FS0100-29452011000400040

Thanks

How is the project doing?

Araucaria araucana seems to do quite well here in Denmark, and there are a number of large, old trees so finding material for grafting should be possible.

I've been researching these plants a bit.

Mainly for hybridization ideas and things.

I'd probably plant them alongside Sequoia sempervirens - Metasequoia glyptostroboides and Sequoiadendron giganteum.

I've read that some of those can hybridize.


Cryptomeria japonica, Sciadopitys verticillata, Taiwania cryptomerioides.


Eucommia ulmoides and Cercidiphyllum japonicum are also pretty cool. They're the only species in their genus (Katsura has two species, but still). They're also rather cold hardy.




Hesperocyparis macrocarpa and Callitropsis nootkatensis have a hybrid together, known as the Leyland Cypress. They both used to be Cupressus species, but were both found to be distinct, even from each other. One species is endemic to a small area in California and nearly endangered.



The Araucariaceae used to have a huge range as did other species. Species also tend to lose barriers if they're separated for long periods of time.


It may be worth planting different Araucariaceae species near each other - same Genus and everything.

Different species in the family have some very nice purposes. And possibly different disease resistances.



Some Agathis species are from Southeast Asia - which probably means they harbor more diseases that evolved away from other species.


Anyways, just an idea.


There are some species purists out there. But, if some endangered or fossil species can hybridize and flourish better then either parent, I say let them do so.


That's how a lot of plants evolved supposedly.


My fossil species sorta "Plantation" (growing various species and accessions in the same area), would take awhile to come to fruition. Zelkova species also used to be as common as oak trees at some point in North America. Now, there isn't a single species here.


I'm not encouraging letting species become invasive either, but there have been species going extinct here in North America. And it's probable that Zelkova and Katsura wouldn't be everywhere even if they do spread.



Someone made a comment on here about something that reminded me of something I posted elsewhere.


Araucaria species take a long time to grow / fruit from seed. I'd recommend growing plants in the same family together, if possible in your areas.



I've seen Angustifolia x Bidwillii mentioned here. Plant Delights Nursery has sold Araucaria araucana x angustifolia before. Someone on herd seemed to wonder if that was possible.



It's probable that most species in the genus can cross easily.


These take awhile to fruit. Some species don't take as long as others. Yes, breeding them takes awhile. I wouldn't discount species just because their nuts aren't as large though.

Growing Chaenomeles japonica (Japanese Quince), Cydonia oblonga (Quince), Pseudocydonia sinensis (Chinese Quince) - as well as Asimina species, both the common type and lower growing types endemic to small areas, and Decaisnea / Akebia species would also be nice to grow.


Ideally, someone growing Araucaria species could or would grow these and while those are growing, they could try finding more usages with these other species. They're all unknown and have various usages, and can be hardy or grow elsewhere with species in the same family.



Araucaria species just take awhile to grow, and breeding other stuff in the meantime seems like it could help pass the time.



I've been making lists of ideas, but I'm unsure if others would be interested in doing side projects which become larger, whilst waiting for things like Araucaria to grow to maturity and become viable for breeding.


Kentucky Coffee Trees and some other interesting species also exist.



Pawpaws would do well underneath Araucaria species. I'm unsure of how their fruiting times match up, but they do both put out large fruits. If they flower and grow at different times or years, Pawpaws appreciate shade.



I'm against growing monoculture plantation, especially of clones. They're simply disease vectors. There are other styles of plantings with mixed things, that are shown to house different predators for other species and encourage other nice stuff.



If we are getting into Araucaria Plantations, I'd like if we started them out right.

I am from London and I have planted 3 araucaria angustifolias in a nearby park... are there any other parana pines that are fully grown up in the UK? Interested to learn if there are others around