Paul Wheaton's hugelkultur article thread

Matt Walker wrote:I would say that if your Arbutus isn't rotting yet and is of decent size, it's too valuable to bury. Personally, I would either use it for firewood myself or sell it as such. It commands an incredibly high price.

It is not only for myself I ask, it was an inquiry on my facebook page.. Also, My friend has one fallen down, Where we live it is everywhere, I know it is good fire wood and valuable but for me I/we in our area.. have no real soil and she and I both are paying money to haul soil in..now I know I have the building blocks right here..less chainsaw work, less hauling. I really just need to know if it has a negative effect on the bed , money is money so selling wood to buy soil and have 2 trucks up and down the road...nah easier to reduce it on the spot and build a bed in the new sunny spot and wait for it to break down..ya know then everything the soil gave that tree goes back where it was kind thing I'm sure some choice firewood & BBQ wood (for it IS the favored flavor round here) will no doubt come from the project at hand for my friend in her situation. I figured it will take longer than some being so hard a wood anything else about Madrone - Arbutus ?

Here's a tour of our one year old hugelkultur forest garden of 50 feet x 100 feet. I realize that it's a long video but I felt that editing it down would leave out valuable information. Think of it as an exercise for your attention span? Or there's always the pause button. I had edited in an ambient music track throughout the tour but the music isn't showing up on the youtube upload for some reason. If I figure out the problem I'll repost the video with the audio track, as it helps the pace of the video. In the meantime I'd suggest putting on some music in the background as you watch the video. Anyhow, I hope you enjoy..

100' x 50' Hugelkultur Garden Tour Video

Charles Kelm wrote:...On a similar topic, last year, someone gave me several pounds of sliced portobello mushrooms which had gone past their prime. I tossed them out in a small lawn area where I normally park my truck. Early this fall they began to come up in several different areas. I was surprised since I didn't do much to ensure their success. There are many trees dropping twigs and leaves in the area, so I guess there was enough woody material to support the fungus. Here are a couple of photos:

Those are NOT portabellos!!! The color is wrong on the top and the edges aren't rolled under. If you insist they are, well, take a spore print and prove me wrong. I hunt mushrooms so I'll leave you with this:

There are old mushroom hunters
and there are bold mushroom hunters
but there are no old, bold mushroom hunters.

So, has anyone planted trees on an HK? I've read here that they can go next to it, or in between 2 HKs but Sepp's/Paul's illustration shows trees on top. Any pics?

I was planning on planting trees on a swale but a swale/HK makes more sense, particularly if my ultimate goal is a living fence. I think the animals could have access to this area sooner if the trees are too tall for them to munch.

Which leads me to another question.

If I actually to 3-4' HKs harvesting/trellising something like tomatoes seem problematic.

Here's a pic of something I made last summer pre-HK enlightenment:


Obviously, just hay bales with compost on top and then some grass/clover seed. Worked great, especially with the little swale in front. I was expecting it to shrink by half this year (we shall see).

Cj Verde wrote:So, has anyone planted trees on an HK? I've read here that they can go next to it, or in between 2 HKs but Sepp's/Paul's illustration shows trees on top. Any pics?

I've got them planted on the middle of the side of the bed but not the very top. You can see them in the video I presented in my previous post.

Travis Philp wrote:I realize that it's a long video but I felt that editing it down would leave out valuable information. Think of it as an exercise for your attention span?

In addition to other problems, the video got hung up twice. I don't think it was my connection because I watched other things right after that without a hitch.

Your video needs severe editing. I have an extremely long attention span but when the narrator states he's losing focus (or drifting or whatever you said), well, he's lost his audience too. It's a little bit like when someone plays around with desktop publishing and uses 10 different fonts. They may think they are making the information more clear when it actually becomes less clear.

Sorry for the tough crit (I spent 5 years in art school). The raw material is fine. You could easily cut 10 minutes out without losing any valuable info.

As for the trees, were they on the side (rather then on the top) of the HK because you were copying the trees on swale technique?

Travis Philp wrote:Here's a tour of our one year old hugelkultur forest garden of 50 feet x 100 feet. I realize that it's a long video but I felt that editing it down would leave out valuable information.

Travis - I really enjoyed watching that. I felt I was right there by your side having a personal tour.

I'm currently staying with geeky, arty, film-making friends and it's a total relief to watch something with content rather than something the critics would approve of. Looking forward to the 'summer' version to see how everything is progressing.

Burra Maluca wrote:Travis - I really enjoyed watching that

To each their own.
You had no trouble with it hanging up though? Maybe too many were watching at the same time on a Saturday night? Doesn't seem likely, but...

Cj Verde wrote:

Burra Maluca wrote:Travis - I really enjoyed watching that

To each their own.
You had no trouble with it hanging up though? Maybe too many were watching at the same time on a Saturday night? Doesn't seem likely, but...

Yeah - we're all different. I can't even listen to music as it feels like someone is trying to get in my head and make me think their thoughts. To me the sounds of nature are symphonic enough. The video didn't hang up for me, but then it's Sunday morning here, not Saturday night.

Of course, I might be just rebelling against being stuck here fending off invitations to attend my friends' digital film making courses whilst wishing I was home building hugelkulture beds.

Travis, another question about the trees.

Why do you think those trees will survive in your zone? It doesn't look like there is any micro climate adjustment. Were they just planted? If not, how many years have they been there?

Howdy!

Just joined today. Just built my first hugelkulture today as well, but then occurred to me, may have screwed up - I perused all the pages on this thread (talk about attention span, LOL) - saw someone mentioned a 'good wood/bad wood' thread, but can't find it. Can someone tell me if Australian Pine is okay to use for hugelkulture?

We cut it down last weekend. We put it in an area where there was an old tree about a decade ago that we cut down, and there's been a depression in that spot ever since, despite multiple attempts to fill in with dirt. When I cleared it of weeds and grass, it was about six inches deep after I evened out the dirt.

We layered cut logs as well as branches, pine cones, the needles, layering dirt in between each layer. It is about 3.5 feet tall by 4.5 wide (actually, it's circular).

I would like to make sure (gee, should have checked before I did all the work) that no negative effects with pine decomposing.

also - what can I plant there? Am trying to do entirely edible landscape (save for butterfly garden for pollinators) and was thinking strawberries, watermelon, or summer squash.

it is in full sun at 10 a.m. EST and gets at least 8-10 hours of sun a day.

I'm in zone 10

also-also - we are due for a drought this summer, so what's the best mulch for this H-K puppy?

thanks.

Some people have said "don't worry about it" but I vaguely recall someone mentioned fresh pine was worse due to the resin.

thank you, CJ for getting back to me.

does that mean i can't put edibles in there? I have no problem with ornamentals, but would prefer to put something in there that I can eat.

although - I suppose having a butterfly garden mound would be pretty; albeit expensive to cover (whereas I have a ton of vegetable seeds)

thanks.

I think the issue is one of PH.

Maybe is wont matter too much if the tree is at the base of the pile. Might not be a bad idea to check the PH in a month or so, after everything has acclimated.

thanks again, Cj. just wanted to make sure i can grow edibles there.

have a nice day.

Cj Verde wrote:Travis, another question about the trees.

Why do you think those trees will survive in your zone? It doesn't look like there is any micro climate adjustment. Were they just planted? If not, how many years have they been there?

I think they'll survive because: They are heavily mulched, they are planted near the top of a south facing gentle slope, with the beds pointing in the slopes direction so the frost will drain away. The hugelkultur mounds are much warmer than the surrounding flat ground, and are near a 100' x 60' pond. Also, that field is probably the most wind protected field on the property.

The trees were planted in the spring of 2011. We've already been through most of winter here and the tree buds are looking good.

Sfc Smith wrote:thank you, CJ for getting back to me.

does that mean i can't put edibles in there? I have no problem with ornamentals, but would prefer to put something in there that I can eat.

although - I suppose having a butterfly garden mound would be pretty; albeit expensive to cover (whereas I have a ton of vegetable seeds)

thanks.

Time is your best friend with these beds, even if it's not right or quite ready to the first year..within a few years it will balance itself out. Lots of nitrogen fixers and companion planting will help the process. If you put aged manure in there, squashes will have fun rambling, cucumbers or a huge green pea mound with flowers cherry tomato would prob do ok just depends on the soil on top. Mix it up and have fun!

Just made it from start to finish of this thread... wow. Need a victory lap and about a month of pondering to synthesize all this good info.

I built some hard-sided raised beds last year very close to the house, and am now planning on digging down and burying some logs in each before I fill with soil/compost. Hoping this will help with water retention and long-term soil health.

I'm also brainstorming ways to use the hugel beds to "terrace" the long hill that slopes down to the creek/swamp. Slowing water down as it heads down (rainfall, snowmelt) or comes up (flood from excessive surrounding runoff) could be a huge benefit to the property.

I'm planning on putting in a hugulkultur bed this year for growing squash. My question is:

With a tall bed (say, around 5 or 6 feet), should you orient the long side to the south/north? If so, doesn't the north side suffer from colder temps and less direct sunlight? Or is the sun too high in growing season for that to matter?

Or perhaps I should orient the long side to the east/west?

I would do east to west if there is an option.

I'm little concerned about making an HK in my garden because of weeds. Well, not really weeds but reeds. Anyone have any experience with phragmites and HKs?

I hope this wasn't already covered and I missed it or forgot:

How close to existing mature trees should one build a hugelkultur?

Hey guys! I live in Georgia and I want to start a hugelkultur bed. I am a beginner at gardening and I want to start growing my own veggies this spring. My main question was my choice of soil amendments. I want to start off right by getting garden soil and mix in some black kow. Along with that I was thinking of adding in Milorganite and a bit of Epsom Salt. Since I work for a garden company I get a good discount so I might as well take advantage. Also seeing that the wood acts like a nitrogen trap, would it be wise to put a layer of all purpose nitrogen on top of he wood before I add the soil? Does this seem like a winning combination that will be nutrient rich?

1. Before you add anything, I would suggest doing a soil test.

2. What are you planning to grow in the HK? Some plants are nutrient hogs, others, not so much.

3. I could be wrong but I think permaculture frowns on the kind of soil amendments your talking about. The benefit to a hugelkultur bed is that you should need less of everything (water, fertilizer, and so on), though the 1st year might not be stellar.

4. If this is your 1st attempt at a garden you may want to start small and explore a few different methods.

D'Andre LaCroix wrote:... I was thinking of adding in Milorganite

I never heard of that before so I did a quick search. Deer apparently wont eat produce that it was added to because of the fecal smell. Are you sure you'll want to eat that produce? Not to mention the tons of nasty stuff in sewer sludge:

If the "Water Environment Federation" has its way, you'll be routinely eating fruits and vegetables fertilized with sewage sludge containing heavy metals, dangerous viruses, dioxins, PCBs, pesticides and hundreds of other toxic chemicals.

Read here for the gory details:
Let them eat sludge

Everywhere I look on my property I see possible hugelkultur sites:



Alas, no tractor so those pile will have to sit in place as they have been for like 5 years.

There's plenty of other wood around, but thanks to this thread I have to shake my head (and probably frown) every time I walk by!

Cj, would you be able to cut the logs into smaller sections that are moveable by hand? I don't suppose you have an ATV? I hauled full sized trees from my forest to the hugelkultur site with an ATV and a heavy chain.

Travis Philp wrote:Cj, would you be able to cut the logs into smaller sections that are moveable by hand? I don't suppose you have an ATV? I hauled full sized trees from my forest to the hugelkultur site with an ATV and a heavy chain.

I have considered cutting the logs into smaller sections but they're too big for my little electric chainsaw & I have to be judicious about asking hubby because there are lots of trees I need him to cut down. Also, the logs may be old enough that he thinks there might be enough rotten spots to dull the chain saw in 2 seconds.

He has mentioned using a chain with his truck. But... he's mentioned that in conjunction with piling them up and burning them. I think I can distract him with other projects.
There's plenty of wood around for making the HKs but I still shake my head when I see those piles of logs!

I've found 4 -5 feet to be about the maximum length of log I can easily manage....Long twisty logs are the hardest to work with.

So I have had hugel beds for a number of years now, ranging in size from 2ft to 6th. They are doing great, but are not why i am posting. Recently a friend was visiting and we got to talking about the hugel beds, he was asking why I kept building them bigger and bigger one after the other. I explained to him as we all know bigger is better with hugel beds. So long story short we are in the works if creating a hugelkultur mountain. Now I think I have seen sepp make one of these before but I am not sure. I saw some photos taken at the kramaterhof(spelling?) and there was what looked to be a big mound about maybe 20ft tall and maybe just as wide. It had stone step pathways going up and over and was covered with plants. I am assuming it was a hugelkultur bed. Or well a mountain. Has anyone seen or done so?

Just crunched the numbers on my planned hugulkultur beds.

For three beds, each 30ft long, 5ft wide, bordered using 8" concrete blocks (2 layers), the total budget will be about $500 each, or $1,500 total. That includes all material, logs, mulch, manure and topsoil dressing.

I'm in a semi-residential area, on a 1/5 acre lot, so I can't go too rustic with them, hence the concrete block border.
Any opinons? Is this a good investment?

$1,500 seems like way too much.

Will your neighbors really think concrete blocks look better than big logs? Maybe that money would be better spent on (productive) trees to block the neighbors' view?

Roman Milford wrote:Just crunched the numbers on my planned hugulkultur beds.

For three beds, each 30ft long, 5ft wide, bordered using 8" concrete blocks (2 layers), the total budget will be about $500 each, or $1,500 total. That includes all material, logs, mulch, manure and topsoil dressing.

I'm in a semi-residential area, on a 1/5 acre lot, so I can't go too rustic with them, hence the concrete block border.
Any opinons? Is this a good investment?

It might be a better investment if you were getting some of those things for cheaper or free. Your neighbors might not be thrilled no matter what you border them with... but that's their problem, not yours.

Matt Smith wrote:It might be a better investment if you were getting some of those things for cheaper or free. Your neighbors might not be thrilled no matter what you border them with... but that's their problem, not yours.

I agree. I choose to do the concrete block border more for myself, like to keep things neat. I could do 2 beds at 8' wide instead of 3 at 5' wide, that would cut about $200 off the $1500 budget. I could also drive around town on garbage day, and collect everyone's "brown bags" for mulch and hopefully branches/trimmings, but for big logs I'll have to seek out local suppliers of firewood etc. I'll also have to pay retail prices for manure and topsoil.

It's ironic that I own a 30 acre woodlot, so I could have all the logs/compost I need for free, but that property is a 4hour drive away. What I'd save I'd burn up gas hauling all that down to my residence.

Roman Milford wrote:
It's ironic that I own a 30 acre woodlot, so I could have all the logs/compost I need for free, but that property is a 4hour drive away. What I'd save I'd burn up gas hauling all that down to my residence.

You might consider the possibility of renting a biggish truck or moving van for the weekend and getting some friends to help load it with all the logs and leaves you can gather at your property, then your bed material would only be the cost of renting the truck, maybe $300 or so......could save hundreds of $......

Roman Milford wrote:

Matt Smith wrote:It might be a better investment if you were getting some of those things for cheaper or free. Your neighbors might not be thrilled no matter what you border them with... but that's their problem, not yours.

I agree. I choose to do the concrete block border more for myself, like to keep things neat. I could do 2 beds at 8' wide instead of 3 at 5' wide, that would cut about $200 off the $1500 budget. I could also drive around town on garbage day, and collect everyone's "brown bags" for mulch and hopefully branches/trimmings, but for big logs I'll have to seek out local suppliers of firewood etc. I'll also have to pay retail prices for manure and topsoil.

It's ironic that I own a 30 acre woodlot, so I could have all the logs/compost I need for free, but that property is a 4hour drive away. What I'd save I'd burn up gas hauling all that down to my residence.

Not sure where you're located, but around where I am if you keep a sharp eye on Craigslist you can find lots of wood and logs for free, especially if you're handy with a chainsaw around storm season. I've got a huge barn filled with seasoning wood right now, and I didn't pay a cent for any of it.

Manure is very frequently offered for free from stabled and places that keep horses. I get mine for free by the dump truck load, I just pay the driver to deliver it.

Travis Philp wrote:I'd like to use round bales, and though I have almost a dozen here left over from the previous farmer, I have no way of moving the bales whole, aside from either renting equipment or hiring a neighbor. Either way it wouldn't be worth the cost for the amount of bales I have. I suppose I could unravel them and pile it on but I think I'm going to stick to wood until I feel I've taken enough from our forests here, and use the hay as top mulch. I'll still give the small square bale gardens a try, and I like your idea (Gerald) of stacking several on top of eachother. If I get enough spoiled bales this year, I may give that a try.

I have a similar situation. Own about 80 acres, 50 cleared and a hay field. Neighboring farmer cuts the hay for me, leaving me a few round bales each time (I have no equipment and in the planning stages for my property).

I'm thinking of hauling out deadwood out of my woodlot, and unravel each bale over top a pile of logs.

How would just that combination decompose?
Is it enough to form a future hugelkultur bed?
The area (zone 5b) tends to have hot dry summers, is there any danger of fire from the hot composting of the hay/wood mounds?

To dress it with compost, manure, and/or topsoil would require a tractor and I'm not quite there yet.

Roman Milford wrote:I'm thinking of hauling out deadwood out of my woodlot, and unravel each bale over top a pile of logs.

How would just that combination decompose?
Is it enough to form a future hugelkultur bed?
The area (zone 5b) tends to have hot dry summers, is there any danger of fire from the hot composting of the hay/wood mounds?

To dress it with compost, manure, and/or topsoil would require a tractor and I'm not quite there yet.

This is my plan and in this unseasonably warm weather I have started my mounds of logs. I'm debating layering logs/hay/logs/hay. I hope it doesn't get too compacted but on the other hand I worry about too much air/space between the logs.

I will put some soil over the last layer of hay - also without a tractor. I'm thinking about filling a few 5 gallon buckets with soil and hopefully that thin layer will get it going. It worked for the hay/swale thing I made last summer. A small layer of soil and some grass & clover and that worked out well. Come to think of it, I posted a pic of it towards the top of this page!

I understand that Evergreen (Pines) are alleopathic which can negatively impact close plantings, but what about dead / decaying evergreens as a main wood source for HK beds? I have acres of dead pines (Lodge Pole and Ponderosa) due to the Mountain Pine Bark Beetle. They have either fallen already or are standing dead. I am researching the idea of cutting them down this summer, laying them in exposed trenches that I cut on contour with a back hoe or excavator, then back filling them with the excavated dirt to make numerous swales on contour. I will than seed heavily with N-fixers and D-Accumulators to start to amend the soil for next season plantings of fruit & nut trees with other accompanying plants. Will this work, or is using the Pine setting me up for disasterous results? Project location, Darby, Montana.

Please forgive me if this has been discussed here before. I'm getting up to speed on huglecultur beds on my only link to the internet. I'm off grid and using a phone to read this huge thread...
Has anyone looked into the dynamic that might be happening inside the beds because of the air space between the logs? This air space might be a type of diaphragm that pumps air when barometric pressure changes. Well not pump in, but cause an exchange of air. Thus hastening the biological breakdown of the materials inside? Thus causing all kinds of fun things to speed up?
Any thoughts on this concept?
Also please indulge me here. Where do I plant my fruit trees on the new bed? On Pauls rich earth site a graphic shows a tree in the top. As the beds ages and drops will the tree be damaged? Can a bareroot go right into a new bed straight away?
Thanks for any help in this matter as I plan to begin building this weekend and hope to have ten fruit and nut trees in the ground in two weeks. I have a tractor to do this with so the timeline seems plausible.
Jim