Paul Wheaton's hugelkultur article thread

Thanks everyone for sharing all this - here are my new beds for the year - I would like to go high enough to really break the wind coming in from behind the beds - I'm using poplar and ironwood (horn hopbeam) which coppices. This area was logged about 50 years ago and is now a poplar, oak, ironwood, and birch mix. I wonder if Im using too much wood though for these...

I dont think you can use too much wood, though a bed comprised of mostly wood will likely shrink significantly over time - it should yield some very high quality soil and you can then pull this extra rich soil back and throw more wood in to build it up for a few more years

at least thats my plan with the section of hugelkultur bed that i built by hand this year, because after finishing it was about the time Sepp came to montana and paul did some more podcasts with him, one of which i heard that sepp said paul used too much wood in the illustrations on his blog - which is what i based the first section off of

all and all i dont think it will prove to be any sort of problem, just different than a bed with less wood in it - and the first year the bed performed quite well so i expect it to be amazing as the years go on

My biggest problem with hugelkultur so far has been armadillos. They love to dig up the piles to forage for worms and insects. They are very strong so can partially dismantle a pile in one night. So this is going to make my hugelkultur tree planting much more difficult. Not only do I have to protect trees from deer, but also protect the entire hugelkultur from being dug up by armadillos. I tried putting chicken wire around the outside edge of the pile, but that was not sufficient. Next I will try wrapping wire over the entire surface of the bed, making a hole just big enough for the tree stem.

That should slow my tree planting down to an even slower crawl.

I believe it was skunks that were also busy digging into my hugels last summer. I was my feeling that if I had buried wood deeper they would not get a hold of the sticks to pull them. But Armadillos ? yikes even big rocks would prob be flipped over by them too. Maybe some fencing wire not chicken wire then holes would be big enough for plants to get through and not too much cutting needed around trees over time. That's a big bummer..maybe dogs would help chase them off?

We can't leave our dog out at night because of skunks and porcupines.

Makes sense to me.. I have used very large rocks and broken cement slabs around rose bushes to keep dogs from trying to get to bone meal. First they stole the whole bag of it then they dug up 4 new plants to get it..then i did the slabs and they were stumped and left. I got the slabs from a construction site. Guessing because they are flat it's harder to turn um over.
That is a bummer of an issue you got there, especially when, what you want to do with these is have it be a working system without you. Now say .. If your trees are planted down into the natural soil at the bottom of a tall hugel it would not be as bad a problem, then all the armadillos would be doing is spreading mulch around, the plantings on the hill may suffer but the trees would still be ok.

Thanks for the suggestions!

Just sharing a picture of what I plan on doing some day...

Does anyone have any experience with building a hugelkultur that is at least 7 feet tall? I will need to build it to be very stable as I and my neighbors both have young children and I don't want any logs rolling off and hurting any one.

I plan on making the mound very tall to add beauty/mystery to my property and to use as a privacy fence from my neighbors.

Thanks!

Travis Philp wrote:I think I'll give it a try on a small scale with acid loving veggies, and doing a side by side comparison with a mound made of deciduous logs, using the same vegetable plants.  I will also be trying the blueberry bed preparation outlined in the Gaia's Garden book using cedar.

I'll let everyone know how it goes.

Just curious if you'd had a chance to post pictures recently. We have a lot of conifers here, cedar does turn up as half-rotten scrap from building projects, and I'd love to know if it's doing well for blueberries, tomatoes, and other good candidates.
I'm still catching up with this whole thread so please forgive if there's further updates I've missed. I'll find them.

Thanks,
Erica

Becky Mundt wrote:

James Colbert wrote:I wish I had a camera the last time it snowed because I had a perfect visual representation of the micro-climates created by hugelculture which are dependent on bed orientation. I have hugel-swales which are on contour. The uphill side was completely covered with snow whereas the downhill side was completely free of frost. These beds are only 2 feet tall but I also have beds that are closer to 3 feet (and growing). These beds are oriented at about 45 degrees to the contour. The micro-climates were still created, one side was frost free, the other side had frost, but the side with frost had much less frost than the beds on contour. It was very interesting to see how one bed could possibly grow lettuce and melons at the same time. The side facing away for the sun extends your cool weather season, the side facing the sun extends your warm weather season. This effect gets stronger with increases in bed height. So you get more season extension with a 4 foot bed than you do with a 2 foot bed.

I don't know how to make two quotes, but in the one above this, the description speaks of dealing with a slope and these 45degree angle beds. I was all set to go on contour with swales and berms and hugelkulture beds just in front of the brms coming down the slope on contour... Now I'm confused about what is best to do.

My slope runes east to west (east is higher) and so the on contour beds would naturally run north to south - do I make a series of shorter 45 degree angled hugel beds below the berm? The winds come in from the southwest, which would either put the beds facing ends into the wind or crossing the wind, depending on the direction I went 45 degrees. Oh AGH. I just serendipitously got a big load of cottonwood from the fellow who I get my firewood from - I've got apple branchers, long water shoot pieces and smaller ones, and a big load of old semi composted straw and compost as well as all the soil from my old garden beds (we just moved into our own place and I brought it all with me) - but I feel confused about which way to lay in the hugel beds now. oh help. :( Oh - and the field levels out below this area - this is the edge of the uphill slope (there's a fenced pasture above it).

Also, the cottonwood was JUST cut this week - now it's lying out in big piles in the general area in the winter rain, so I figured I needed to dig the beds and get them in and get the wood under there and plant somethinng on top as soon as I can... Ame I being too crazed? Help!

I'm a newbie at hugelkultur, so other minds will offer better advice for technical specifics. But I feel like sharing my favorite tips about decision making in general:

If you are torn between two options, it probably means they are equally good, as far as you know. You can pick either one, and things will most likely turn out OK.
Try something. See how it works.
There is no huge hurry to get fresh logs in the ground, but it may be more convenient for this year's growth to bury them before things get too dry.

If you have enough space to try both options at once, it's a great experiment and you will become a local expert on the answer to your question.
Even better (and easier), do several new options and leave some space to grow in the way you've been doing it. That's a 'controlled' experiment. Given what I know about wood rotting, I'd run this controlled experiment for at least 5 years before deciding on a favorite result unless I had some real problem areas.
With this kind of experiment you get to be right and wrong at the same time - and most importantly, you get to find out which option(s) suits your situation. If you research and seek good advice and then only try the 'best' option, you may never know how the other would have worked. You could discover something entirely new and cool about having two layout angles, where some things do best in shelter and others do best with lots of wind and sun.

Is wind a bigger killer for your plants, or is maximum moisture retention? Sounds like the contour beds will work great for both water and sun 'balance' (getting full sun on both sides for part of the day). Angled beds might give you more range of microclimates, and one of the angles offers maximal wind protection on one side, exposure on the other. I personally like the idea of shorter / keyhole beds for frequent tending, and longer berms for boundaries and perrenials I won't need to access that often. Hate having to compact the soil to cross a big bed, or go all the way around, when I'm puttering.
If you want someone else to suggest a layout, I nominate: short diagonal beds uphill, maybe in a V configuration to channel moisture toward specific areas. (will distribute any runoff of nutrients from pasture). Long contour beds below (will catch and retain moisture that might otherwise make the shallow ground swampy). Bear in mind that I know nothing about your situation, so if you disagree... well, at least now you know your own mind. ;-)

Crazed could be excitement, or discomfort. Only do it if it's fun.
You don't have to be right the first time. Start small, start somewhere, observe, and increase.

Microclimates are your friends; find them and work them. The thriving hugelkulturs I've seen were mostly oriented to property boundaries or spare ground, rather than the prevailing conditions.
If after trying it for 2-3 years you observe a definite advantage to certain types of bed, you will have lots of excellent well-rotted topsoil and spongy organic matter for building the new configuration of your choice.

so yeah, I hope you went ahead and did it.
Don't forget to have fun.

My father-in-law was shaking his head at us bringing all our rotten logs into the garden. He said it was funny how much dead wood he had cleared out to make that garden, and here we are dragging it back in. I sure hope it works, 'cause it will be mutually frustrating if he decides he wants to go back to the old method.

-Erica W

Guarren cito wrote:Just sharing a picture of what I plan on doing some day...

Does anyone have any experience with building a hugelkultur that is at least 7 feet tall? I will need to build it to be very stable as I and my neighbors both have young children and I don't want any logs rolling off and hurting any one.

I plan on making the mound very tall to add beauty/mystery to my property and to use as a privacy fence from my neighbors.

Thanks!

check my project thread, just built a massive bed recently, the logs themselves only went to about 3-5ft high and werent stacked but jumbled so they werent going anywhere

now the part i built by hand, i stacked logs ( as shown in pauls article as that is what i went off at that point last year) about 5-6ft high and than dirt about a foot over that, there was voiced concern over them rolling over, especially before i got dirt over it but now that the dirt is on it and the kids have climbed and sledded over all winter i dont think there is much to worry about in this regard - though i always advise you proceed at your discretion

I do not have new photos of the bed I posted a few months ago, but there are peas growing in it, so progress is being made. The hugelbeet I made last year also has peas growing on it. They're doing better than the newer bed.

Having made two of these, I can see the things I've done not quite right, and what I will do differently with the next one. For instance, if I am going to make it high I need to make it a bit wider. Practice and experience, successes and failures are all good teachers!

I do have a question on pronunciation.
At a conference in my town last weekend I was talking to a guy who does permaculture design. I mentioned my hugelbeets and pronounced it 'hoogle'. He told me it is pronounced 'hagle' with a long a sound.

Can someone please tell me the proper pronunciation of hugelbeet or huglekultur or huglebed? This bothers me more than it should, but I would like to know.

This weekend I will try to get an updated photo posted.

I am no expert. I believed it to be like "google" with an "H". I checked a German dictionary and it indicates a long "u", but a "gel" not a "guhl" ending. The English dictionary writes the long "u" sound the same as "google". Maybe the guy had an accent issue? lol

Lots of good stuff in this thread- I think I'm on about page 11!
Just thought there might be some others who find these links useful-
The first is a site which has pdfs on a range of related topcis, but of particular interest on this thread is one entitled 'Hugelkultur Raised Beds' which includes a couple of short articles and a longer one which I guess is an excerpt from one of Sepp Holzer's books- some good stuff in there, for those of us who have not seen the books, clarifying some of his approaches.
http://permaculturetools.wikispaces.com/Earthworks+%26+Water

Second is a Romanian page with photos from an SH supervised hugel build in Ukraine. Text is in Romanian, and while many photos are self explanatory, google chrome was able to more or less translate the page, and some of the comments are helpful- dealing with the angle of the slope, bracing etc and some idea of what was seeded where..
http://ecology.md/md/section.php?section=ecoset&id=4291

I love this thread. I wish I had time to more than skim it. I have pictures of my own urban backyard-scale hugelbeet on my project page, where I have enclosed it with used pallets for structure to allow for vertical sides. I would like to try this on a larger scale, but with larger skids, and them either forming A-frames over the wood/manure core, or leaning in slightly with the tops joined by horizontal braces/spacers, allowing for erosion control on sides even Sepp would call ridiculously steep until root systems can take over.

https://permies.com/forums/posts/list/24218#193612

Thanks, everyone, and good luck!

-CK

I have a question similar to one that has already been asked (and perhaps answered, but I don't have time to read the while thread). Where I live, almost the only wood available is pine, juniper, or sagebrush. Are any of those good for hugelkulture? I can get large amounts of pine, smaller amounts of the others. Rarely any deciduous wood, and unless it's totally rotten or cottonwood, it's much too valuable as firewood to put it in a garden bed.

Kathleen

Some types of wood contain fragrant oils that perform fungicidal functions. These tend to break down more slowly. This might not be the worst thing in the world if the bed is still performing the water retention function. The other problem some people experience is one of too much acidity. This can be overcome by amending the soil, or by planting acid-loving species. The pH will rise over time.

Some people use pine straw (here in the city I collect Christmas trees and chop them up) in trenches to grow potatoes. I do a half-and-half mix with soil or triple mix, and hill them up every couple weeks to a month. Works well, and the loose pack inside the trench makes for both easy harvesting and good root development.

As to settling issues, the idea is that rotting material causes settling that opens void spaces within the bed. The void spaces make for larger and healthier root systems, and they happen slow enough in well-constructed beds that the root systems just fill them in as they happen. Whatever happens to the pile, happens to the tree. If the pile settles a foot over a year, or three, for that matter, the tree will stay where it was planted relative to the top of the pile.

For solidity of structure and to improve the vertical wicking capacity of the bed, I arrange 2' sections of log vertically and set them into the subsoil (after I've removed the topsoil, and a total of three feet or so to to the subsoil) like pilings. I will take pictures of this stage when I next build one from scratch. A tap with a sledgehammer plants them nicely. If the log pilings in the middle of the bed are set slightly lower than the perimeter sections, a shallow bowl is formed that does well to catch and hold a layer of manure, smaller tree limbs, ramial wood chips, triple mix and the removed topsoil. By layering manure as the woody layers are put down, not only is the nitrogen and carbon properly layered, but the size and structure of the opening voids kept reasonable.

Hope some of this rambling helps. Pictures are/will be posted about what I'm describing in the thread I linked to in one of the last posts.

-CK

Here's an interesting question once hugelkuter ( I think that's spelled right ) is fully decomposed, and offers no more benefits, how "re do" the hugelkuter?

That might be more of a non sequitur. If you plan the planting of your hugelkultur such that what you plant in the bed occupies a maximum volume of root zone by combining deep-rooted, shallow-rooted, and those in between in one space, that, combined with harvesting practices of non-perennial plants that leave the roots to rot in place, chop and drop mulching, and layer composting can result in beds that never reach that state of no further benefit you're talking about.

The other thing that can be done, in my opinion, is to mix in small quantities of types of wood that don't break down easily, or lots of wood over 4" in diameter, which contains more lignin, which breaks down much slower than wood that is 3" or less in diameter, which is primarily inner bark and, thus, full of plant food in digestible form. You need both, and as large pieces as possible, but the stuff that takes longer to break down keeps the air spaces and soil structure open, specifically to allow for perennial plants, shrubs, and trees, to more easily send their roots down as far as possible, as soon as possible. Once that's done, and the planting is being managed properly, all the root zones, and later the mycelia of the fungi that will come to colonize, will take over the functions of the wood in the pile.

This is just as I understand the concept, you understand. It may be that I am mistaken, but I think hugelkultur as permaculture only works if you don't tear it apart every few years to add more wood. If hugelkultur is based on nurse logs, they are transitory, meant to nurse the new permaculture system so it takes hold as completely and quickly as possible. Don't worry about the decomposition after the hugelbeets are made; if you feel the need to add to it, do so as would happen in a forest setting, that is, from the top. Vegetative litter, animal manure, whatever would naturally fall on the ground would stay on the surface, unless and until some critter pulled it underground.

As to appropriate brown mulch, some have had good results in soil-building situations using rameal wood chips as mulch. In some cases amendment with kelp, kelp tea, or human urine diluted between 1:6 to 1:20 with water, were useful in negating nitrogen draw-down, but this is not much of an issue with fresh rameal chips.

-CK

My hugel beds are woodchuck heaven..

Kelly Green wrote:
I do have a question on pronunciation.
At a conference in my town last weekend I was talking to a guy who does permaculture design. I mentioned my hugelbeets and pronounced it 'hoogle'. He told me it is pronounced 'hagle' with a long a sound.

Can someone please tell me the proper pronunciation of hugelbeet or huglekultur or huglebed? This bothers me more than it should, but I would like to know.

Maybe I can help you out, I speak fluent German. Hugelkultur or hugelculture is derived from the German word Hügelkultur (Hügel = hill / mound and Kultur = culture). If you pronounce the following in English, it should sound relatively close to the original word: "hew-gal-cool-toor" "or hewglecooltoor". Beet = gardenbed and is pronounced like bet with a stretched out "e" sound in bet or bed, not like an "ee" sound, as in seed, for instance.

Short of of a "hewgle", "hoogle" is definitely closer than "hagle-"

Hope that helps : )

I have been reading this amazing thread. Wow it is huge and full of great advice. I have a neighbor that is in the tree service business, he goes by the house all the time with loads of wood some very big stumps, large bodies, and LOTS of limbs. He doesn't chip. He burns almost daily. I think I will have to let him stack some of this wood on my place for some beds . So you might call your local tree service company and get a lot of free wood. It would save the tree company money by not going to the land fill and paying to dump it. Hope it helps somebody.

Cj Verde wrote:

Alan Stuart wrote:
What kind of mushrooms could pose problems to plants? I was under the impression that mushrooms and mycelium meant the soil was healthy.
-Alan

From Armillaria Root Disease

Armillaria root disease is found throughout temperate and tropical regions of the world. In the continental United States, the disease has been reported in nearly every State. Hosts include hundreds of species of trees, shrubs, vines, and forbs growing in forests, along roadsides, and in cultivated areas.

The disease is caused by fungi, which live as parasites on living host tissue or as saprophytes on dead woody material. The fungus most often identified as causing the disease is Armillaria mellea (Vahl: Fr.) Kummer. Recent research, however, indicates that several different but closely related species are involved. Therefore, the generic term Armillaria is used to refer to this group.

These fungi are natural components of forests, where they live on the coarse roots and lower stems of conifers and broad-leaved trees.

As parasites, the fungi cause mortality, wood decay, and growth reduction. They infect and kill trees that have been already weakened by competition, other pests, or climatic factors. This type of activity occurs throughout the United States--especially in deciduous forests of the East. The fungi also infect healthy trees, either killing them outright or predisposing them to attacks by other fungi or insects. Such behavior typically occurs in the relatively dry, inland coniferous forests of the Western United States.

Hopefully, a tree planted in an HK would be healthy enough that this wouldn't be an issue, but it might be better not to include infected wood.

This is very concerning. How come we don't hear many reports of Armillaria mellea problems? As far as I've been able to investigate, it is very very difficult to eradicate and it will kill most plants. It thrives in wet rooting wood so HK beds sound like the ideal home for Armillaria to thrive. I talked to an old fashioned and well seasoned farmer about building a HK bed and he said: NEVER EVER, you'll get Armillaria or "mal blanco" and will never get rid of it! I'm in Spain in very dry Mediterranean climate and heavy clay soil. I have already started my HK beds but got all nervous after talking to the local experience and I don't know what to do now. He did not know about HK, he just knew that old wood in the soil will kill the bed forever (a very very long time). He also said that it takes a couple of years to see the effects of the fungi.
Does anyone have long term experience with HK in a similar climate? Has anyone experienced Armillaria in HK?
Thank you for your input

This thread was started to discuss this article, and it's very long!
If you have a specific hugelkultur question/observation, I suggest starting a new thread is more likely to get you noticed:)

It's really great to see how many people are experimenting with hugelkultur, and adapting techniques based on what materials are available. We live in a semi-arid climate and have been turning our entire garden, piece by piece, into underground hugelkultur beds. Our pits have averaged 5 feet deep, and we're mainly using aspen, spruce, and alder. It would be very helpful if folks wanted to visit my blog and give me feedback, suggestions and ideas based on your experiences: http://woodforfood.blogspot.com . I'm always looking for new ways of seeing things and different strategies to consider! Thank you all for sharing your thoughts on this super interesting thread.

Welcome to permies Julie.

I'm glad that the hugelbeds are working out well for you.
When water is scarce, it needs to be managed very carefully.

As Sepp Holzer says, Everything alive is 70% water. Once you have managed your water, you are 70% done.

Welcome, Julie!

I popped over to your blog--very impressive!

It would be great if you could chime in on this thread:

https://permies.com/t/32153/hugelkultur/ground-ground-huglekulturs

Thank you, John and Julia! I love the 70% Sepp quote -- that's great. My goal is to have a massive water and heat battery. I will check out the ground-hk thread, thanks so much for the suggestion.

Julie

This is an interesting blog post about vertical vs horizontal stump placement relating to plant wilting. Hugelkultur in buckets too. Good read!

http://lowcostvegetablegarden.blogspot.ca/2012/07/vertical-hugelkultur-eliminates-wilt.html

Almudena Gonzalez wrote:

Cj Verde wrote:

Alan Stuart wrote:
What kind of mushrooms could pose problems to plants? I was under the impression that mushrooms and mycelium meant the soil was healthy.
-Alan

From Armillaria Root Disease

Armillaria root disease is found throughout temperate and tropical regions of the world. In the continental United States, the disease has been reported in nearly every State. Hosts include hundreds of species of trees, shrubs, vines, and forbs growing in forests, along roadsides, and in cultivated areas.

The disease is caused by fungi, which live as parasites on living host tissue or as saprophytes on dead woody material. The fungus most often identified as causing the disease is Armillaria mellea (Vahl: Fr.) Kummer. Recent research, however, indicates that several different but closely related species are involved. Therefore, the generic term Armillaria is used to refer to this group.

These fungi are natural components of forests, where they live on the coarse roots and lower stems of conifers and broad-leaved trees.

As parasites, the fungi cause mortality, wood decay, and growth reduction. They infect and kill trees that have been already weakened by competition, other pests, or climatic factors. This type of activity occurs throughout the United States--especially in deciduous forests of the East. The fungi also infect healthy trees, either killing them outright or predisposing them to attacks by other fungi or insects. Such behavior typically occurs in the relatively dry, inland coniferous forests of the Western United States.

Hopefully, a tree planted in an HK would be healthy enough that this wouldn't be an issue, but it might be better not to include infected wood.

This is very concerning. How come we don't hear many reports of Armillaria mellea problems? As far as I've been able to investigate, it is very very difficult to eradicate and it will kill most plants. It thrives in wet rooting wood so HK beds sound like the ideal home for Armillaria to thrive. I talked to an old fashioned and well seasoned farmer about building a HK bed and he said: NEVER EVER, you'll get Armillaria or "mal blanco" and will never get rid of it! I'm in Spain in very dry Mediterranean climate and heavy clay soil. I have already started my HK beds but got all nervous after talking to the local experience and I don't know what to do now. He did not know about HK, he just knew that old wood in the soil will kill the bed forever (a very very long time). He also said that it takes a couple of years to see the effects of the fungi.
Does anyone have long term experience with HK in a similar climate? Has anyone experienced Armillaria in HK?
Thank you for your input

Armillaria mellea and other similar species of honey mushroom are parasitic on trees. They are also some of the largest organisms on earth, so I don't think you're going to be able to get rid of it. Lol.
As a professional landscaper and gardener, I can assure you that honey fungus is not a threat to any annual in your garden, and probably very few woody perrenials.
I have often collected honey mushrooms from spruce stumps around gardens and orchards, and I've never seen any ill effects.
Where I live, it primarily attacks dying spruce trees and their roots and stumps. The mycelium is faintly bioluminescent, and the mushrooms are delicious and easily preserved through drying, although some people may be allergic.
I really wouldn't worry about it, but perhaps things are different where you live.

Thanks for the link, Ty, that is cool to read. It makes sense that wood wicks water better along the grain, but I never thought about burying wood vertically.

hooooglekulture..........

This was last night, I just finished seeding and watering. It is snowing this morning. The wood is from those tall trees you can see in the background. All of the larger ones, which is the closest row, were topped. 73 trees in total and three were dead and cut up into logs. I piled the majority of the logs on the ground and then topped the logs with the branches. And actually that is a little under half the branches.....I didn't think about it at the time but I rented a chipper and chipped the first half of the branches. I think the bed is probably 80 feet in length total, so that's including the bend, and probably 6 feet tall. It's covered with aged compost that's been piled in the same spot for years....added to and taken from throughout the years.....there is no longer a compost pile, it is now a compost flat.

I can't tell you which seeds I planted....well I could, but it's just so many......the medicinal seed pack from mountain rose herbs went into it, plus cilantro, sage, parsley, chives, lettuces, spinach, kale, goji berries, sea berries,.......some more stuff I'm not recalling. At first I tried watering a small section to see what would happen to the seeds, I didn't think they would germinate on the surface so I ended up trying to rake them in. I really hope that stuff still grows on the top and sides of the mound........ I'm also going to purchase six fruit trees to plant right up next to it.