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Cannabidiol oil...CBD oil...experiences?

 
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I'd like to discuss CBD oil, cannabidiol oil.

I hoped that because it's legal and devoid of any THC and also derived from industrial hemp that it could fit in 'medicial herbs' rather than the 'cider press'.  

CBD hemp oil is made from high-CBD, low-THC hemp, unlike medical marijuana products, which are usually made from plants with high concentrations of psychoactive tetrahydrocannabinol (THC). Because hemp contains only trace amounts of THC, these hemp oil products are non-psychoactive.



We are experimenting with it to wean my husband off of conventional pain pills after back surgery with the hope that it helps heal nerve damage and overall inflammation.  The brand we're using is 'Innovative' and the dose is one dropper full (100MG) once a day.  He thinks it's helping but has only been taking for ten days or so.

Does anyone have any first hand (or second hand ) experiences using any brand for anything either long term or short term?

I notice that it comes up here in suggestions having to do with nerve pain quite frequently.....


 
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Hi Judith.

In my experience, CBD is actually derived from strains of medicinal marijuana bred to have high levels of CBD, and correspondingly low levels of THC. Some prepared products have none at all, but I have heard mixed reviews, and the overwhelming majority, and this is in cases where the amounts concerned would be sub-psychoactive levels anyway, feel that some THC is needed to make the CBD work properly.

To be clear, THC has medical applications as well, and there are cases of people not having success with CBD, but a lower 50/50 dose had great effect. The trick in those cases is avoiding impairment, but again, the level of impairment involved when treating pain with low doses of cannabis is exceedingly low as compared to opiates and other prescription drugs.

Having said that, one of the benefits of experimenting with cannabis for pain is that there is no real risk of overdose that I am aware. I have vapourized concentrates for acute pain (I crushed my hand in a paper press, only soft tissue damage, no lasting harm but it swelled to the size of a football) to the point where I passed out (not the intent at the time, the pain was just bad, and I lost track). Unlike other serious pain medications, physical habituation takes a relatively long time of heavy use, and withdrawal symptoms are likened to caffeine withdrawal.

Lastly, the oil itself is important. I have made oil extractions myself, and have noticed that medium-chain triglycerides, coconut oil, and butter or ghee are the most bioavailable. I have also used olive oil, to lesser success. It apparently has a use for those with renal impairment or specific stomach ailments, as it is processed in a different way than the more effective fats, but the more circuitous route means that it hits differently. I don't know how effective the hemp oil is, especially if hemp isn't something that your husband's gut's microbiome is used to processing, but something to try would be adding hemp hearts to his diet. He might find that with more parts of the plant the CBD came from being processed by his system, you might get parts of the plant chemistry removed by the processing that help his body assimilate it more completely. This might be bunk, but I have found that, whether psychosomatic or not, my medicine works better when I eat more of the plant.

I hope your experiments are fruitful, and that your husband is able to get off the pain pills. Please keep us updated.

-CK



 
Judith Browning
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Thank you Chris...good information and I would love to discuss medical cannabis and how to make an oil,  decarboxylation, etc. but I think it's got to go in the cider press....I think that even though many states have passed MM and it's legal in some other countries, the discussion is still off limits here?

I was hoping to just stay with over the counter CBD oil in this thread though so it can stay in the 'medicinal herbs' forum.
 
Chris Kott
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Hi Judith.

I was very careful not to suggest anything illegal in my last post, but I do understand your concern. I have never used this product specifically, but I maintain that if a person's body has trouble processing the oil carrying the CBD, the effect will also suffer. I think that the whole eating of hemp hearts, which I do in my oatmeal, provides metabolites specific to the plant that aid in complete digestion and use of the medicinally relevant compounds. This is just anecdotal evidence, but it's worked for me.

My mom, incidentally, tried some 100MG CBD pills for a heel spur she had to deal with (she's on her feet all day long). She's one to talk with on this issue, as she has no recreational experience, or desire for it, to cloud the issue. I will talk to her about her experience and see if she has any helpful advice.

As the oil your husband is using is sub-lingual, does that indicate that it is to be absorbed by the mucus membrane? Sub-linguals are usually glycogen based, in my experience. Unless I am much mistaken, and yes, I went to the site and read their information, fats aren't absorbed that way and must be digested. Have you come across this anywhere?

I suppose if you wanted further avenues of exploration, your husband could try swallowing the dose, as opposed to holding it under his tongue.

Good luck. Cannabis and its derivatives will likely see a surge as pain medication in light of the opioid crisis and all the aging baby boomers who want to preserve their hearts, livers, kidneys, and stomach linings from conventional off-the-shelf and prescription pain medication. I hope you guys find something that works for you.

-CK
 
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Ill step in, I have been occasionally using medical oil for about seven months. Like any thing substance, it can be used or abused. I used to be on Paxil for occasional light depression and I have two vertebrae in my neck that are stiff some days and ache. I don't really like to get " high" or " goofy" as grandma called it.
This is not the 60's anymore. Medical marijuana is coming to be accepted as medicine. Even in the draconian state of CT.
If you go to your doctor, he is gonna give you pills, yes I'm still a criminal in this state cause the paper work is expensive and lengthy. It has helped me. A  vial costs me $50 and lasts for four months. It is not the same feeling you get when smoking.  No silliness, no giggles, no " munchies". When my Daughers moth was dying of cancer this summer.  Guess what an option the doctors provided her with?? A medical marijuana time release patch for the pain ( throat and Brain cancer, could not inhale anything).  Stepped out on a limb here folks.  I do feel strongly about this issue.  Call yourself a permie? Believe in natures medicines? Think about my words.     Larry
 
Judith Browning
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As the oil your husband is using is sub-lingual, does that indicate that it is to be absorbed by the mucus membrane? Sub-linguals are usually glycogen based, in my experience. Unless I am much mistaken, and yes, I went to the site and read their information, fats aren't absorbed that way and must be digested. Have you come across this anywhere?



Good point...he is swallowing the dropper full, not holding under his tongue....and now I see more questions.  We are buying it at a local store not on line.  I did not see where it said 'sub-lingual' though?  

I do see that the reason for using industrial hemp for this product is so that it can be sold here legally....sigh....

 
Judith Browning
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I have been occasionally using medical oil for about seven months.



Hi Larry, by medical oil do you mean CBD oil?  I thought it was all available over the counter now.  

Is it helping?
 
Chris Kott
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The site you linked to has three products. One is capsules, the second is the pressed hemp oil extraction you mentioned, which specifies sublingual, and the third is a topical or salve. Is there a reason why you chose the oil as opposed to the capsules?

Also, the site specifies industrial hemp, but I am thinking that they don't mean a fibre or seed variety. We're probably talking about a high CBD strain with levels of THC low enough to qualify for non-psychoactive status, which makes it legal in areas where the THC isn't allowed.

-CK
 
Judith Browning
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I think that the whole eating of hemp hearts, which I do in my oatmeal, provides metabolites specific to the plant that aid in complete digestion and use of the medicinally relevant compounds.



good thought...I can get those at our local 'health food' store.  
 
Judith Browning
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Is there a reason why you chose the oil as opposed to the capsules?



No, there is no reason other than having heard more about the oil.  Next month will check with herbalist more thoroughly.  This was almost an impulse buy as he isn't happy with the dr's prescription.
 
Judith Browning
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Chris Kott wrote:...the second is the pressed hemp oil extraction you mentioned, which specifies sublingual,

-CK


That's odd, I see what you found, but the bottle itself and the brochure say nothing about it being sublingual..I wonder if it's a mistake on their page?
https://www.innovativecbd.com/product-category/sublingual/

 
Larry Bock
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Judith Browning wrote:

I have been occasionally using medical oil for about seven months.



Hi Larry, by medical oil do you mean CBD oil?  I thought it was all available over the counter now.  

Is it helping?



Judith, it's not over the counter here, it does come in medical packaging, unfortunately, the break down writing is very small and I don't have my cheaters right now. Sometimes I'll go for a week without touching my Vap pen. It has helped me with my my neck. Had X-rays taken years ago, my doctor told me to do something else for a living ( like after 36 years of plumbing and fire protection, that was an option).  And it has helped greatly with some minor depression issues. As mentioned before, I used to be on Paxil for it. I have not taken that for 7 months.  I am happy that I got to see the acceptiance of hemp products as medicine in my lifetime. If I can get the " card" it came with and cheaters in the same place, I'll look the break down up for you.   Larry
 
Larry Bock
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Judith, I found the card that came with the Vap oil. I was wrong about the CDB oil. The break down on this card is 93 percent THC and 7 percent inert ingredients. Oddly there is a note stating no CDb's ?   Larry
 
Judith Browning
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Larry Bock wrote:Judith, I found the card that came with the Vap oil. I was wrong about the CDB oil. The break down on this card is 93 percent THC and 7 percent inert ingredients. Oddly there is a note stating no CDb's ?   Larry



thanks Larry, that's the good one for pain and mood then.  I don't know if the CBD oil is going to work as an anti inflammatory and for nerve healing but we'll give it a few months to see.  It's an everyday dropper full (and has no THC).

I guess ours contains the CBD missing from your bottle
 
Judith Browning
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Just a quick follow up...my husband tried CBD oil for more than two full months and did not notice anything. We stuck with the same brand and quantity just to give it a chance.  I know others say it works for them and I believe them...it just did not give him any apparent relief.

In the end he had major back surgery and now is pain free which equals drug free also.
 
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I was interested in your update. My husband tried CBD as well and saw no benefit.

We theorize it's a HUGE placebo effect. What you believe will work, will. All the people we know that it worked for are true believers. My hubs, as a toxicologist, was not one of them.
 
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I also had no effect with CBD oil taken sublingual. Firstly, it tastes awful and it lingers. I do highly recommend a standard cannabis salve. I make one with cannabis, arnica and yarrow. I use standard cannabis because there is always lots of trim to work with, it's a by-product. It has worked great on my feet for plantar fasciitis and achilles tendonitis. Works okay on back pain and hip bursitis. I suspect part of the difference is my ability to really massage it in on my feet vs. not so well on my hips (because the affected area is deep) and my back which I cannot reach well.


I have heard the best use of the sublingual oil is primarily epilepsy in children.
 
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Two things worth noting to me; 1) the whole CBD marketplace is entirely unregulated and promises tremendous profits. There also is zero standardization in terminology. Some people seem to be selling hempseed oil as CBD oil, others are selling concentrates of varying quality and others are selling tinctures. But all of them might be listed the same on the label. 2) All of the research I have seen as well as all of the personal observation is that THC is effective largely on it's own but CBD isn't very useful unless there is some amount of THC. The consensus seems to be that a ratio around 1:15, meaning a product that had 100 mg of CBD would have 6 or 7 mg of THC. This isn't legal in any state that doesn't have medical or recreational cannabis use. This means that many people are consuming products that are probably not what they claim to be, and if they are they probably aren't the types of products that actually created the buzz around the product in the first place.

i would recommend that anyone interested in using CBD/hemp for it's health effect obtain some viable hemp seed and grow their own. The leaves make a wonderful smoothie green. Any flowers they produce are great to make your own extractions from. And it's stupid easy to grow in a garden setting.
 
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elle sagenev wrote:I was interested in your update. My husband tried CBD as well and saw no benefit.

We theorize it's a HUGE placebo effect. What you believe will work, will. All the people we know that it worked for are true believers. My hubs, as a toxicologist, was not one of them.



"What you believe will work, will."  I think that is more important than the substance or method.

In my younger days I found that pot helped rid me of my anxieties.  When the cbd hit the market, I tried it, fully expecting some sort  of buzz as well.  When it didn't,  I felt this doesn't work. I wasted a good chunk of change on this oil.  But I had it and had to eat it.  Over time I realized that it does in fact work for that racing mind.

I also knew that it was said to be good for pain so I recommended it to a friend for the arthritic pain in her knees. She was very anti drugs but decided to try it because the pain was so bad. She's never looked back since her first application. I did warn her that this only treated the symptom and that there was more that she could do to recover, but this will ease the pain until then.
 
Chris Kott
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I am becoming increasingly leary of what is being marketed. I am very much of stephen's school of thought, that if you need it as medicine, you should be able to find a medical strain bred for the appropriately low amount of THC required for proper CBD uptake or metabolisation, and it should be grown in a garden.

I don't like the additives. What I want, if I am not just using a convective herbal vapouriser to vape cured dry flower, is to do a CO2 extraction (preferably in a greenhouse so it feeds back to the growing) that leaves no residues or byproduct, and produces an oil thin enough to use in an e-cigarette-type setup.

I really like the idea of the leaf/trim smoothie, but honestly, taking the stuff therapeutically, I would infuse it into my coffee cream or bulletproof butter concoction, and make ice cream and stuff.

I think the best thing we could do is to link CBD use, and the medicinal use of cannabis as a whole, to the modern, daily therapeutic use of herbalism, to make use of the entire natural pharmacopoeia.

If we're making oil extractions to vape, say, why aren't we experimenting with complimentary herbs? If I am vaping for pain, or for anxiety, what other herbal remedies for said could be combined with the vaping of cannabis? Or could I add herbs that boost respiratory function, or stimulate the respiratory cleaning functions?

This is, of course, with the caveat that one should follow the local laws.

Honestly? As one who enjoys the act of vaping as much as I used to enjoy cigarettes, I would love it if there were a vape mix that I could use throughout the day that wouldn't intoxicate me, but would slug my anxiety in the face at need, leaving me calm and focused. And if it conferred some neuro- or pulmuno-protective effect as a result, combatting either mental or environmental stresses, I wouldn't complain, either.

-CK
 
Chris Kott
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And Judith, I hope you're hub's doing well. I am sorry he wasn't able to find relief with CBD oil, but to be pain- and drug-free is an amazing thing. I hope recovery has gone well.

Good luck to you in the future.

-CK
 
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Chris Kott wrote: is to do a CO2 extraction (preferably in a greenhouse so it feeds back to the growing) that leaves no residues or byproduct, and produces an oil thin enough to use in an e-cigarette-type setup.
-CK


finishe
Only problem with that plan is that the CO2 used for extraction is 'super critical' which seems to just mean that it is under a tremendous amount of pressure. All of the set ups I am aware of that do this sort of extraction are 5 figures and up. The technique probably most doable at a home scale, although it requires a bit more knowledge than I currently posses, is an ethanol extraction with distillation. My personal experience has been that an ethanol tincture works very well and can the be taken orally, added to tea/smoothies, used as an ingredient in candies/gummies/capsules. The other best option seems to be cooking it into a fat like you mentioned and then using that medicated oil/butter/lard

I definitely agree that we generally need to get back to simply including this herb in our daily practice of preventative herbalism. I really think that many of the benefits could be obtained by regular consumption of the leaf in smoothie form. I've wanted to try using the big leaves as a cooking green but I've been a little hesitant because they have a strong flavor. I once made a kraut of fresh cbd flowers and cabbage and it was brutally herb flavored, to the point of inedibility. But I do think it could be added in smaller proportions into a kraut or kimchi recipe and it seems to me that there might be a higher bioavailability after being fermented. Definitely an area that needs more research.

Also exciting to me is the increased awareness of other cannabinoids that may have health giving effects. CBN apparently shows some promise as a sedative and anti nauseant, CBG apparently has some promise in tumor reduction. THCV is being promoted as a sedative and anti anxiety option. And there are at least dozens of other cannabinoids that are just beginning to be explored, and new garden/farm scale analytics that are affordable make it a real possibility that people could start to breed for these nonintoxicating products in a way that was totally unimaginable before.
 
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