harmful detoxification

Hello! is there anybody who have done detoxification with binders , such as chlorella and activated charcoal, with coffee enemas , and made bigger damage? I cant recover after I ve tried these, I got 10 times worse and has already passed 2 and half months.I have chronic fatigue syndrome
please post if you have any similar experience

thank you in advance

Hi!  I've never had an official diagnosis, but I've dealt with chronic fatigue symptoms since my late teens.  

I'll try to share some of what I've learned, and perhaps some of it will be helpful for your situation.

Detoxing.  It's a difficult subject.  There's no doubt lots of poisons in many of our bodies, and I do believe they hurt us.  But if you're really weak, sometimes the last thing you need to do is release more poisons.  

For now, set aside detoxing altogether.  Focus on things that build your strength.  Good food, clean water, fresh air.  Gentle movement / short walks.  Don't push yourself.  Rest every day for at least a bit (yes, lie down and rest even if you think you don't need to).

There are probably some huge stresses in your life.  Look at them and see if any can be eliminated or reduced.  I know that's not always possible but stress is not helping your body heal.

I highly recommend finding a magnesium supplement you can use, and do so regularly.  Your body needs magnesium.  Most people with modern diets are depleted, and the land is often depleted, too.  A gentle way to start would be soaking your feet in warm water with epsom salts.  But I definitely recommend a supplement as well.  I currently use: Olympian Labs Magnesium Citrate.  You can adjust the amount you take till you find what helps you feel best.  

Start anything new slowly.  Your body is fragile and you need to "baby" yourself a bit!

Not everyone will have the same experience here, but I found that raw milk helps me a lot.  So does raw organic cocoa.  (Together they are delicious!!)  (I like Healthworks Cacao Powder.)  I feel like the antioxidants in cocoa are amazing for brain health and general wellness, and there's something in raw milk that's incredibly healing for me.  Obviously people's makeups differ, but they're discovering new things about cocoa all the time (and it's healthier without the added sugar and processing, of course).

Take magnesium.  Rest as much as you can.  Breathe clean air whenever you can.  Try to lower your stress.  Eat what healthy food you can.  (If you don't feel good on it, it's probably not healthy for you.)

I found that I needed to supplement with niacin, another vitamin that many people are deficient in in modern society.  (People's bodies need different amounts, and it's water soluble and doesn't build up and last in your body.)  Again, start slowly.  

Build yourself up for at least a month before you try doing any more detoxing.

(Although taking activated charcoal internally will not hurt you, as long as you don't take it at the same time as supplements.  Even that won't hurt you, it just wastes the supplements.)

Try to remember to be gentle with yourself.  You thought you were doing the right thing.  It's just that your body is more sensitive right now than some people's, and you mustn't be rough with it.  Have compassion on yourself, understand you were doing the best you could, and work on resting, building your strength up, and reducing stressors.

I know it's overwhelming!  You can make steps of progress and build a life that you can handle.  Take things slowly, and don't forget to listen to your body.

I'll post again soon about detoxing.

I'm a huge advocate for working with an allopathic (mainstream) doctor when trying natural therapies.  


A doctor (in Canada at least) is required to respect the decision of the patient.  They are also really good at ordering tests and diagnosing things.  They can tell if a natural treatment is working.  More importantly, they can help advise you if the treatment is inappropriate for your condition.

I have chronic fatigue (among other things)... but that's a collection of symptoms.  It's what's called idiopathic.  Meaning this specific collection of symptoms appear together and either has no known cause or more often, it has several known causes that present the same way.  In my case, it is partly a problem with my gut.  The treatments you mentioned would probably kill me.  However, other natural treatments I've found are working.

I'm also able to monitor which natural treatments are successful because I can see the blood work.  This helps me customize my treatment for my own body (every body is different) and not waste money and time on treatments that don't help me.

I see the idea of detoxing, as a business meant to sell herbal remedies, not something that is medically necessary for the majority of humans.

If your liver and kidneys are not compromised and you are eating a decent diet, and drinking an adequate amount of clean water, then your body is busy detoxifying right now.

Why is this a detoxification issue and not a nutritional one? I am sorry to be pedantic, but have you checked all the other boxes off?

What is your intake of B vitamins like? What are your iron levels like? What are you eating, and how much? What are your activity levels like? How long had your initial condition persisted, and were you diagnosed, or did you diagnose yourself?

What do you think is the state of your gut microbiome? Do you eat any fermented foods?

All these things can play a factor in your energy levels, and this is by no means an exhaustive list. The very fact that you got worse doing an intense detox (which I am not going to get in to right now, but I think a fast, perhaps involving intermittent small amounts of well-sourced food, is one of the only kind of detox I have seen that is grounded in medicine, along with ones that boost liver and kidney health) suggests to me that you are in fact lacking in something that was further leached out of your body by your aggressive experimentation.

I think you might want to try putting coffee in your mouth instead of your bum. I think if you happen to not eat meat or animal products, you need to very seriously look at your B vitamin levels and your intake of essential fatty acids and iron levels.

It is so very easy for some people to become anemic. I am a big meat eater, and so I didn't understand how it was that I was iron-deficient. It turns out that I wasn't getting enough vitamin C to benefit from the heme iron I was intaking. The resultant anemia left me lethargic as all get-out. I could imagine that you could get symptoms that resemble chronic fatigue syndrome if you stacked that with a B-complex deficiency.

I would caution against any other extreme measures. Make sure you listen to your body. Give it what it needs. If that means a blood test, go do that. My aunt had to lose all the feeling in her feet due to undiagnosed diabetes, all because she didn't think the doctor knew his job.

If you've stripped essential micronutrients you were already lacking from your body, it could be impairing nutrient and calorie uptake. Make sure you go see a doctor.

Get well soon.

-CK

I think Chris has hit on some important points. Although detoxification is necessary when people are exposed to drugs or some other poison, unfortunately there are many scammy sales outfits, that would like to sell us something we don't need.

I have seen it on late night TV, and I have watched Oprah Winfrey trot out various hucksters, with things to sell.

The word detoxification can mean many different things. Our bodies remove toxins through a biotransformational process that the cells use to remove toxins just as we take out the garbage to our trash can. Some of the toxins are recycled into other things and other toxins are simply removed via the bile and into the feces or through the urine, the breath, and the skin. There are many levels of toxins that are known to be excreted in the bile. (Binders won't help if the toxin is mostly excreted in the urine.) Binders hasten the bile removal dragging the toxin in question which is attached to the bile out in the feces. (Otherwise much of the bile is recycled back to the liver along with the attached toxin.) This can then pull more toxins out of cells to be disposed of and yes it can sometimes, depending on how it is done, make a person feel worse during the process. A much bigger issue though is, what is it that you are pulling out? Where are the toxins coming from that are bothering you. For instance mycotoxins are removed in the bile and urine and binders are often used to help move them out. However, if the person does not remove themselves from the moldy environment they just keep putting toxins in. The first thing to do if someone thinks they have some sort of toxin overload is to identify the toxin and find out how it is removed from the body and then support that system of removal. Even more important they should remove themselves from the toxic items finding their way into the body. Is it mercury from amalgams in your mouth or is it volatile organic compounds from an off-gassing new building you live or work in, is it the chemicals coming from the local factory, or biotoxins from the toxic blue green algae in your pond? The most important detail is identifying what you are reacting to and removing it or removing yourself.  If you want to read copious amounts of data on the use of binders to remove toxins and details on biotransformational pathways, I have written about it at great length and links to this free data can be found here: http://www.herbaltransitions.com/ChronicInflammatoryResponseSyndrome.html

I read a lot of environmental reports, for buildings that I work on. These reports exist, primarily as a means to identify bad substances, and to prescribe solutions. These bad substances have names, such as asbestos, lead, mercury, pcbs Etc. There are accepted ways of testing for them, and accepted methods of removing and disposing of them. There are ways to quantify, the percentage of these substances in a given material and to assess the risk level.


I don't see anything like this happening, in alternative medicine.

The word toxin, is tossed about in much the way that you would say, a bad substance. But I almost never see a name attached, or anything that shows that the offending substance actually exists. How much of it is there? Do we know that it is bad? Are there known methods of getting rid of it? Will it break down, within the body and go away on its own? I know that Healthcare professionals ask themselves this question, but I wonder if the purveyors and purchasers of detox stuff, give this enough thought.
.......
Imagine, if I showed up at your house and told you that this house contains a lot of really bad shit , that must be remediated immediately. So we go out to the truck and get a big HEPA vac unit, shovels, miles of plastic sheeting, and we show up wearing Hazmat equipment, but we have never taken the time to determine whether or not any problem exists. I doubt that anyone would go running for their checkbook. Do people still have check books?    

Here's a deconstruction of the vague and uncertain language that surrounds the idea of detoxification.

Thank you, Matt! That was comprehensive.

I think that if you can't identify the chemical or biochemical malefactors any more precisely than "toxins," someone's not even trying very hard in their scam. At least the one in the video wasn't trying to obfuscate the connection with spiritual holistic healing.

I think I summarised my view in my previous post with regards to best detoxification practices. There are materials, as Dale has mentioned, that are cause for concern if identified in a home or office scenario because they do have the ability to poison us. But they have proper names. We know where they come from. Why aren't these "toxins" named? Don't they show up on a toxicology report? When do you know if you are done detoxing, if you can't detect the levels of toxin in the bloodstream? How do you even know what the correct approach would be? Medically speaking, the specific treatment for a specific type of poisoning might mean death if used for another poison. Unless we're talking about generally supporting the function of the organs that process and eliminate toxins from the body, how would it be possible to determine the correct approach? The reasoning behind it isn't even scientistic (it doesn't even "ape" science methodologically to gain credibility).

I think it's a good idea to source your food well, and to make sure your usual water sources are clean. Key are appropriate amounts of food appropriate to the individual and the tasks being undertaken on a daily basis. Strenuous excercise (or as strenuous as possible considering individual limitations) in clean air, regular elimination, and avoiding mental toxicity, as in avoiding ideas and products being sold to the gullible by the unscrupulous for profit will greatly benefit everyone, and the pocketbooks of the gullible.

-CK

My understanding of activated charcoal is that it's indiscriminate, it will absorb many different things, some of which are things we want. While necessary under certain circumstances, not something that should just been done as a matter of course. If you have ever had it in a medical facility, you would never opt to do it at home. It's truly unpleasant. External use in a salve for spider bites or such, seems useful.

My personal favourite recent bit of news regarding this kind of stuff is the new charcoal fad. Black ice cream, pizza crusts, bread, whatever you can put it into. Looks very cool.

Until you realise some weeks into your new fad that it has detoxed you of your birth control. Oops.

-CK

I always find it funny when various YouTube doctors of nothing, prescribe a vast array of nonsense. With many of the treatments, a big selling point is that there is no lethal dose. When you have something that is relatively inert, and does just about nothing, you don't have to be super careful with it. If you're going to self prescribe medications, I suppose this is a safe way to go. Just have some holy water, mixed with fairy dust, listen to soft music and hold a rose quartz crystal in your hand. If your problem was psychosomatic, it may in fact be cured now.

I know a lady who will sit for hours with her feet in a bucket of warm water, with some stuff she bought off the internet, in that water. She claims that this substance is drawing toxins from her body, through her feet. She feels better afterward. I suppose it's convenient that this works through the feet. Imagine if they told her to soak her face or one ear in a tub. This might require special breathing apparatus, a neck brace or other support. Feet, fit comfortably in the bottom of the tub.

If I ever market one of these cure all substances, I will insist that people keep the back of their knee immersed in water, while hanging upside down by their ankles. I don't know what my success rate would be, but since these things rely on self-reporting, I doubt that it would be anywhere near zero.

Dale Hodgins wrote:a big selling point is that there is no lethal dose.

Have you seen that bit where James Randi goes on stage and swallows an entire bottle of homeopathic sleeping pills and says something like "The box says I've just swallowed a lethal dose!". Brilliant.

Here's the video:

Whenever I say no lethal dose, I'm alluding to homeopathy.    

There actually is a lethal dose. A radio station in California ran a contest, to see who could drink the most water. A nurse called in her concern, warning that this was very dangerous, but they ignored her. Someone died.

But I don't think there's much risk of anyone overdosing on the distilled water that is homeopathy. That might cost a million dollars.

Wow Dale the Lawyers ,a group I believe the USA has a national surplus of ,must have loved that case :-)

David

I was told to detox by a traditional (meaning not modern medicine) doctor about 15 years ago.

Modern medicine doctors wanted to put me on lifetime meds, do surgery, etc., etc. for a multitude of problems.

My doctor also warned me that when he said detox he did NOT mean that I should take additional supplements, purge or anything else of the sort.

He said what he meant was to stop putting bad stuff in my body.  He said that the body is naturally set up to heal and detox on it’s own - but it cannot do that when it is constantly trying to heal from a daily barrage of toxins that we put into it.

He told me to drink only clean chemical free water, teas from clean plants (not sprayed or commercially processed), and real food from sources that I can depend on - grown and raised without chemicals or additives of any kind. Stop using antiperspirant, no artificial scents in the house, no fabric softener liquid or sheets, and the list of daily chemicals we use goes on and on.

This was VERY difficult to do but sourcing this food and water is what eventually led me to permaculture. Previously I had never read labels or questioned what each and every ingredient was.  

I initially went on an alkaline diet and the fatigue, joint problems, skin problems and brain fog cleared up in an amazingly short period of time.  Then I gradually included more foods in my diet but continued to ‘eat clean’ for many years.

I have fallen off the clean food wagon for the last 3 years and have paid a ‘heavy’ price; I’ve gained weight, joints are swollen and painful, skin problems are back --- so here I am - getting back on the clean food wagon again.  And it is harder than one would think to ensure that we keep toxins out of our bodies.

Hi Jeanine. I think I like your doctor.

We have moved away from a lot of chemical use in our home. We bought a set of woolen dryer balls to replace the sheets we were using. Sure, the acrylics tend to cling to the woolens, resulting in some interesting underwear SNAFUs, but I prefer the outcome.

We sleep better, I think, in our sheets. I know just the fact that they don't smell like detergent or fabric softener makes them smell cleaner to me, and I don't wake up sweaty or with random rashes or breakouts.

I wash with cold, and toss a quarter cup of baking soda in at the beginning of the rinse cycle. I use it in the same way for a rinse or soak for all my store-bought produce. I read that baking soda in water is probably the most effective kitchen method of scrubbing chemical contamination from the outside of produce. This does nothing for produce grown in cides and chemical fertilisers, but for the organic produce that gets sprayed for shipping, it's much better than nothing at all.

I figured that the same would be true for the soapy residue that sometimes happens on my clothes, and I have found that I don't get it in my laundry anymore, and the baking soda has removed even the faint soap smell that I associate with the unscented pigment-free for allergic people and those with skin sensitivities detergent we use.

One of the biggest reasons I want to get out of the city is the unintended inundation by chemicals that are toxic to us, real gaseous and particulate matter that can be quantified in parts per million coming from innocuous, ubiquitous sources everywhere. I mean dry cleaners, sewer grates, industrial parks, cars and trucks everywhere, "... dogs and cats, sleeping together -- mass hysteria." -Dr. Peter Venkman

I used to bike across the city as my main means of transportation, for both school and recreation. One of the things I hated most in the heat of the summer was the gritty film left on my teeth after a pass through the downtown core. I was breathing that stuff into my lungs. Let's not even get into what else that caused me to do. I am really glad for natural systems of filters that are standard equipment on all humans, including all that wonderful particulate-catching mucus.

-CK

Nice summary from a well respected natural healing source

It's difficult for someone who doesn't suffer from or recovered from a disease to say much here, so I offered the summary from the School of  Natural Healing

bob day wrote:Nice summary from a well respected natural healing source

It's difficult for someone who doesn't suffer from or recovered from a disease to say much here, so I offered the summary from the School of  Natural Healing

The star of that article peddled distilled water as medicine, called by many different names. Certainly not respected by me.

Go for the cleanest water available. Plain water sold in small packages, with a bunch of stuff written on the side, is still just water.

Drink some regular water, that has no brand name or fake doctor selling it.

Dale, first let me say that I understand the molar theorem of chemistry, and the fact that the discovery thereof required the change in homeopathy to the belief that water "stores" the memory of the substance since a typical hemeopathic preparation includes not even one molecule of anything but water. Any theorem that has to change that dramatically needs a critical look. NMR (surprisingly) does not support that theorem, and has been available for at least 30 years in wide use.

What is interesting to me, as someone who works with chemistry every day, is that we are finding that other things actually do retain a "memory". This would be true for albumins and other proteins, and possibly lipid bilayers as well.  So I am reluctant to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Not saying I'm burying rams horns at full moon or anything, just interesting.

What I object to is the pseudoscience. I am totally cool with science, and equally at home with art and mystery. Art masquerades poorly as science, and frankly most of us are not sufficiently nerdy to find beauty in equations. I love the fact that there is room for both in complex systems. I wish there was less money being scammed out of people, and spent on productive things, but to some degree this may provide value to people. I don't want to tell them what to value.

Not everything I do is strictly in one realm or the other, that is human nature.

It is almost never going to change someone's position to show that their science is basically an art. I have been a part of these discussions and it has been nothing but a wedge in relationships. There are some people (even in my own family) who are so abrasive about their positions that lack of acceptance is tantamount to family treason. We either don't discuss it, or if they persist in bringing it up, I am pretty blunt that that way lies disconnection in our relationship. I see lots of things on here that people "feel" strongly about. Let them feel, you cannot change the heart. You can sometimes gently steer things into science, but ultimately many would rather revel in mystery and gnosticism. That is their choice and allows them to make sense and coherence in their world. Maybe it allows them to interact with you and me.

There is room enough on here for both, and ultimately people will tend to find their place. I am interested in some of the historical knowledge, because frankly it is better than what we can do in the lab. For one thing, there is no way anyone would approve a test protocol for what people do willingly. We all can have a place, and I think that is cool.  

NMR one assumes you mean Nuclear Magnetic Resonance :-)
Yup I have a degree in Chemistry too :-)
What I must admit amuses me about the idea that water has a memory is the assumption that it remembers what we want rather that what it may have been in the past ( and there are a whole host of things I  would rather it did not remember :-) )
As for proteins having a memory I would rather put it that it has a limited potential number of shapes dependent on the medium and surrounding molecules   . Not sure if I personally would call that a memory :-)

David

David Livingston wrote:NMR one assumes you mean Nuclear Magnetic Resonance :-)

What I must admit amuses me about the idea that water has a memory is the assumption that it remembers what we want rather that what it may have been in the past ( and there are a whole host of things I  would rather it did not remember :-) )
As for proteins having a memory I would rather put it that it has a limited potential number of shapes dependent on the medium and surrounding molecules   . Not sure if I personally would call that a memory :-)

David

That is a fun way to look at it. There is an old joke about drinking water is disgusting, because fish poop in it, I think it was a comedian routine. Albumins are pretty complex, the same molecule can look pretty different actually at many locations, and can present different binding sites based on prior exposure as well as pH and immediate surroundings. We really don't understand it, and may be using it clinically before we have a clue why it works from what I am told. Not actually something I work with but I know someone pretty involved in it.

There may be something in the water we don't understand, for instance with the agitation method used for compost tea. Bryant RedHawk is no one's fool and he has mentioned it. Same with planting by moon cycles, which really matters with groundwater flows. I never would have come up with the mechanism but it does seem to make a difference (although I am far too disorganized in the garden to do it!) I try to keep an open mind. Then there are things I just don't buy into at all, but just keep my mouth shut, because it is not productive to do otherwise. Plus I have eaten lots of crow and it isn't my favorite flavor.

My experience with listening to holistic doctors when they talk about detox is that they take a blood, urine, or hair test, and analyze what the poison is.

They often advocate eating lots of leafy green vegetables, which is a great strategy for detox and in life in general.

They often advocate using filtered water, because many systems are full of chlorine, chloramine, and fluoride.  Many people in modern society are lacking in iodine, and fluoride pushes that out.

They often warn against quick detox.  Our bodies normally and naturally detox over time. That is part of their job, but it only happens if you are moving your body and eating right.

One of the big problems is that we arent' eating vegetables like we used to, nor fruits, nor berries.

Some people have problems with grains, but if your digestion is good, whole intact, sprouted grains have shown in studies to remove lead from your body via the fiber.

In the US, many regular allopathic doctors sell you a prescription and tell you the problem is in your head. Sometimes they make up a name for it so it sounds better.

Some techniques, like coffee enemas, were in the regular allopathic literature Merck manual until they realized that they can't make as much money off of it, because you can't patent coffee.

Coffee enemas are valuable but they should only be done under certain circumstances, like if your tumor is dying and all of the dead tissue is clogging up your system, or if you are rapidly detoxing.

We need to keep the concepts in balance.  I recommend using a holistic doctor.

JohN S
PDX OR

For me the whole subject is about having an open mind and accepting there are things we don't know but not just accepting the first hypothesis that comes to mind or is promoted. Bit like UFOs I accept there are things we don't know ie unidentified flying objects , the clue is in the title , but little green men not really :-)

I like the thread and the water and the memories. What is an enema? Do you want to say that my daily mug of coffee is good for me
Isn't working until you sweat a good detox? Hence gardening....

Keep it simple. Our bodies are designed to function optimally. The systems for detoxification are already in place. Sweating, exhaling, urinating and defecating all remove toxins from your body. In order for these systems to work properly you must move (exercise) enough to induce sweating and deep cleansing breaths; drink plenty of clean, chemical free water; eat real foods that are free of "cides" and contain plenty of fiber; stop adding more toxins into your environment; stop over-medicating and taxing your liver; slow down, be mindful, grateful and calm; and get enough uninterrupted sleep.

That's my list. I've given that same advice to my clients (as an exercise instructor) for years. Do I follow it religiously myself? Not always. I know what my health issues are and I know what I (I!) must tweek to get back on track. And, it certainly doesn't include putting coffee or anything else in my behind.

There are many traditional forms of detox.  For centuries, people have gone to mineral hot springs.  It takes out bad toxins through the skin, but the water doesn't have chlorine or fluoride in it.  

Native Americans and Finns have been using saunas for centuries to induce sweating.

Ayurvedic and Chinese medicine go into deep detail on cycles of tonics, liver cleansers, herbs, mushrooms and vegetables that help with digestion, assimilation, and excretion. They have many times lower incidences of cancer, diabetes, Alzheimers, and obesity.  In modernizing our world, we have removed a lot of the normal steps that people used in maintaining health. In our modern society, we live badly and just wait til we have a crisis.  Then our disease profit system is designed to step in only then.
John S
PDX OR

John Saltveit wrote: ...people have gone to mineral hot springs.
...using saunas for centuries to induce sweating.
...tonics, liver cleansers, herbs, mushrooms and vegetables

Correct. Good post John. I think in this case "traditional" equals "natural".
Hot springs open your pores, sinuses and stimulate lymphatic system.
Saunas are great for making you sweat. Exercise would be better.
Nothing wrong with tonics and liver cleansers, as long as they are made with natural substances (like milk thistle). Herbs, mushrooms and vegetables are real foods, as long as they haven't been sprayed, nuked, processed, painted and packaged to make you ask, "What did that used to be?"

Angelika
I think you need to google Enema rather than have me describe it . You may thank me later :-)

David

While water is in the discussion, I've seen the ads for this guys water machine touting changing the angle of the two hydrogen atoms on a water molecule and making deuterium depleted water. I've always thought it to be another person preying on the gullibility of consumers, and I think it's snake oil. One thing I do know is deuterium is real. I don't have a degree in chemistry, but I'd like to know what my fellow permies who do, think if it's even possible to push hydrogen atoms around on a single oxygen, or if this is another example of hype.

Filtering your water is very important according to hundreds of doctors and studies.  However, this guy's particular machine has a tremendous number of very aggressive claims.  I think that it is possible that some of them are true but it's a huge gamble to buy the machine. I would wait to see how many of them are backed by independent scientific validation.
John S
PDX OR

Yup Filter water big tick ,with John on this one . Changing the angle of the hydrogens in water .... Er just no frankly even if you did have very small hands and an accurate protractor :-) I personally cannot see how this is possible
As for Duterium , naturally occurring isotope of hydrogen , if it's a poison we are so f@@@@@ it's not true  as it's found everywhere on this planet. Only use I can think of is in Atomic reactors where it is used to capture and slow down nutrons . Hardly a permie interest

David.

Thanks guys. I do choose to filter my drinking water with a reverse osmosis filter as I just want water molecules in my water (with a pinch of sea salt). I kinda thought that guys water machine claims were hot air.

they have many times lower incidences of cancer, diabetes, Alzheimers, and obesity.  

Obesity is true (diabetes as well, would add that for sure). The others are almost certainly reporting bias. Most places in the world don't have anyone capable of diagnosing Alzheimers, and most other places don't test for cancer nearly as aggressively as the US. You test for it, you find it. The most recent evidence is that >70% of cancers are truly sporadic or genetic with no identifiable risk factors, meaning just a fact of cell division and metabolism. Yeah smoking and some other stuff is pretty bad, but unfortunately mostly there doesn't seem to be any magic bullet. I would love to believe otherwise, but I have seen no evidence, even good epidemiological data to suggest the increase in diagnosis is better technology and people living long enough to get cancer. The smartest guy I have met on this topic (VERY educated on alternative health and an eminent pathologist) eats primarily a fast food diet. He said he will change if his lipid profile changes for the worse, since there is evidence for it. He puts his money where his mouth is]. He may be dead now, it's been at least 14 years since I met him.

None of us make it out alive, and we can't modify much about life. Joke at work: Vegan "if you eat like me you can live to 100", typical guy "Why would I want to?". I don't eat like the pathologist guy because I feel like crap if I eat like that. I want life for my years over years for my life. I cut down trees and use firearms and use power tools. There is danger everywhere in life. I drive at speeds higher than human physiology can handle in a collision (like anything outside a parking lot).  I consider "natural" to be what people did to stay alive in preindustrial times, preferably preagricultural times. So far as I know people bathed when it was warm enough, ate some herbs fruits and meats, and probably passed down what plants were good and bad. In India the yogis draw water into their rectums in the river, so maybe there is something to enemas, I don't know (I sure don't do them). But "natural" is not always healthy. Ricin is totally natural, hemlock too. Stuff will kill you faster than dioxin or radiation. So I really value the anecdotes on here from real people. Like the posts on echinacea particularly! People are actually using it, keep us informed of your experiments in life.

The negative sense of needing to protect ourselves prevents us from positively taking risks. We live in ethnic segregation, listen to things we already agree with, and obsess on our own success.

Let's fail. Let's strike out and try stuff that makes us uncomfortable. I love that impulse on Permies. Lofthouse is awesome! There are people building stuff that is dubiously tested because otherwise it will stay dubiously tested! Don't take stupid risks, but take risks. People accomplished so much when nothing was guaranteed, now we tend to risk aversion.

BTW, on the water thing. Check out the link above from the pathologist for how to spot quackery. Notice how Ellis "cites" all these studies, but does not provide direct references to them. I got involved with this research into quackery when my mentor was diagnosed with stomach cancer. This site is par for the course. Deuterium is a natural and degrading compound. There is less today than yesterday and the day before. People have been drinking it for as long as water has been consumed. Then he switches to this angle discussion. The only independent data on this site I can find is bacterial destruction. News flash, bacteria die in all water without enough osmoles of other stuff. Lots of anecdotes.

I'm with Karen on the eat, drink and exercise thing. That will do it.

After TJ's comments on gnosticism, I did some Googling and discovered the term, narcissism of small differences. It goes into how people who basically agree on things, will bicker endlessly about the details. Something like the Judean People's Front and the People's Front Of Judea, of Monty Python Fame.

Although there are many completely imaginary Medical Treatments in my opinion, I think that they have their place, as a way of treating those who suffer from imagined maladies. Working with their Guru or health care provider or whatever they want to be called, those folks can form feedback loops, that will keep them connected forever, or until the account runs dry.

TJ,
I am going to strongly disagree with you on this one.

Have you heard of the Blue Zones?

You can dismiss thousands of years of evidence by calling it testing bias, but that doesn't even remotely come close to convincing me. There are many studies in these areas.   Every one of the doctors who I have heard from in the last 5 years has said that about 90% of the cancers, diabetes, and obesity are caused by lifestyle. The old " it's all genes, don't worry" was pushed by the cancer industry to cover their incredibly expensive and ineffective treatments.  That's about 20 years behind the most recent data.   It may comfort you to think that you shouldn't pay attention to what you eat due to its impact on your health, but the evidence is overwhelming.  Try www.nutritionfacts.org for one. I could go on all day.  

There is a very small portion of the population who have amazing genes and can eat fast food, and still live well.  I personally think that most doctors who eat fast food are just busy and don't want to spend the time to cook properly. Big Pharma gives them materials that say that so people will just spend all their money on pills instead of taking the time to cook properly.    Again, it's easy to decide that its ok and ignore the evidence.  Then you get more free time and you can buy the cheapest food.  Eat what the corporations are herding you into.  

Eating real food isn't painful for everyone. I would eat it even if it wasn't proven to be healthier for you.  I think it tastes better and is way better for the planet.

Nature has poisons for a reason.  They all have a function. If you want to live an anti-nature lifestyle, that's your business. If you think that the corporations are looking out for you and they are providing the best food possible, that's your business.   I am not going to back that, even if it is very convenient.   If you are trying to convince people that it has no effect upon your health, I am going to disagree with you.
John S
PDX OR

John Saltveit wrote:TJ,
I am going to strongly disagree with you on this one.

John S
PDX OR

From the journal Science.

Depending on where you are in the world (developed countries about 40% environmental, correlated with age as you would expect). The rest appear to be purely spontaneous/genetic. There are several pretty well done studies in the last two years that suggest outside of tobacco the number is around 20% environmental.

Every one of the doctors who I have heard from in the last 5 years has said that about 90% of the cancers, diabetes, and obesity are caused by lifestyle.  

I would have said the same thing two years ago. This is relatively new based on the genetics of the cancers.

The old " it's all genes, don't worry" was pushed by the cancer industry to cover their incredibly expensive and ineffective treatments.

Not saying the cancer treatments are generally much better than the disease. Sure not defending the pharma racket.

Eating real food isn't painful for everyone. I would eat it even if it wasn't proven to be healthier for you.  I think it tastes better and is way better for the planet.  

Agree absolutely. It will also prevent some diabetes, obesity, hypertension and a bunch of other killers. Just not probably much cancer. And unfortunately, twin studies suggest the genetics of the other killers are also very important.

Joel Fuhrman has done a lot of work in this area.  

I have seen nothing in the last two years that would suggest its mostly genetic, and I'm looking at this research every day.

One of the most influential books in the last few years (perhaps the most) is from Thomas Seyfried from Boston U with "Cancer as a Metabolic Disease. "  Another is Travis Christofferson with "Tripping over the Truth." Both have been on Mercola and many other sites that are mostly for scientists heavily the last two years.

You didn't answer about the Blue Zones.  Have you seen any of "The Truth about Cancer"?

Valter Longo is one of the most prominent people looking at these topics and he hasn't even come close to saying anything like you're saying.

There has been a ton of studies on fasting and how it eats up these free radicals and mutations.  Some of it is related to ketogenic dieting, and some is not.

It's not only the food you eat.  Movement is important. So is stress.  So is connection with meaning to other people.  The environment is important as far as toxins, but what you do is the most important.  

It feels like the tide of history is moving against your thesis.
John S
PDX OR