Poke Holes in our Permaculture Plan

Good Morning Everyone!!

My husband and I purchased a 3 1/2 acre wooded property in eastern Missouri in July.  We spent 3 months on it from September to the end of November.  Now we are spending a few months in Florida so it seems like a great time to plan our next steps.  As always, our plans are both short and long term, and flexible.  I'd like a fresh set of eyes on them.  What are we forgetting?  What might not work and why?  What is great?

Goal:  A place that is healthy for us, our livestock, and gentle on the land.

Land Characteristics:

Sloped to the North
Part of the St. Francois magma upwelling so granite bedrock and acid soil
44 inches of precipitation
Cool wet winters
Warm humid summers
Heavily wooded with huge oak trees (straight up, few spreading branches)
No Zoning or Building Codes
Electricity Available
500 feet from St. Francois river (potential to buy another lot for riverfront)

Utilities:

Electricity - mains and a solar/generator backup for critical systems
Water - Wells are iffy and expensive here so we're going to do rainwater harvesting from our living roof into a 750 gallon ferrocement tank for the main house.  Every over building will also have a smaller tank and harvest rainwater.
Septic - Composting toilets
Greywater - Bog setup down the hill from the house.

Building Plans:

Cabin of cedar, pallets, straw-clay, and cob https://permies.com/t/235017/Light-straw-clay-pallet-shed.  This was an experiment to see if we like this building method.  We loved it!  We couldn't completely finish it before we left, but we'll get it done and the living roof on first thing in the spring.  This will let us test our rainwater harvest system on a smaller scale.

Spiral Earthbag home, https://permies.com/t/235034/Scale-Model-Earthbag-Spiral-House. This will be partially earth-bermed (gravel drain tile on hill side, walls covered with EPDM pond liner on uphill to prevent damp entering). RMH for heat.  We're hoping that being on the north slope and earth bermed will keep us from having to have air-conditioning.  Huge patio to the east with an earthen bread oven.

Barn - (Hay storage, chicken area, milking room, goat feeders) Same building method as cabin.  Wattle fence using saplings from clearing (half finished)

Workshop - Same building method as cabin

Garage - Quonset top on earthbags set in the hillside and planted.

"Gardening"

Living fence of bitter orange, mulberry, blackberries, roses, etc. (barrier and can be harvested for livestock fodder)
Straw bale garden for vegetables
Raised bed garden for corn etc next to the powerline easment on the back of the property
Food forest
Herbs next to the house


Livestock:

Milk goats - 2. These give us great milk for cheese and wonderful fertilizer.  I dry lot my goats so I don't have to manage parasites with chemicals.  I like Lamanchas best and have a friend with a Lamancha dairy that will let me borrow a buck whenever I need so I don't have to keep one.  Yearly inputs - High quality hay (30 bales) - grain  12 bags. Loose mineral - 1 bag

Chickens - 10. Eggs and spider control.  Hot fertilizer for compost pile.  Yearly inputs - Oyster shell (a bag lasts forever) - Grain - 4 bags. Kitchen scraps

Rabbits - 3 does 2 bucks - meat, fertilizer.  Inputs - some hay (included in goat estimate). Salt Spools

Mini horse - Horsepower, hot fertilizer for compost pile, cleanup crew.  Yearly inputs - some hay (included in goat estimate). The pony mostly gets the stems and less desirable hay the goats won't eat.  - Basically I just want a horse anyway

Finances:

We have a little credit card debt (under 3k). Everything else is paid for.  We purchased the land for cash.

I work on line part time as a Social Media manager, Web designer, and Transaction Manager.  I bring in around 2k a month.  I also have a book and a few homesteading plans published in Amazon that a make. a (very) small income from.  I suppose we could come up with some income directly from the property, but we're 12 miles out of town and I think we're mostly focusing on saving rather than making money.

My husband does low voltage electronics and can work as much or as little as needed.  He makes good money when he works.

Concerns:

We're in decent shape, but both getting up there and these building methods are physically demanding.  We probably need to find some help (either paid or unpaid)
We don't have any heavy equipment so we'll need to rent or buy at least a bobcat

Okay...now that i've bored you to death.  Where are the flaws?  What are we forgetting?  Anything we should add?

I'll take a swing at your rainwater harvesting to help you flesh it out more if you haven't.

Do you have plans on incorporating a first flush filter or something similar for the water first coming off of the roof?

What is your plan for filtration/management to make the water potable?

Do you plan on where in your system you are going to locate a pump (Assuming you will need a pump to transport the water from the main tank) and incorporating some kind of redundancy in case of pump failure?

I'm not sure how cold your winters are, or where the tank is planned to be located, but freeze protection is something also to also consider and can be easier to flesh out in the planning stage before any work is done.

I hope this gets the wheel's turning or maybe you already have this stuff figured out!

Timothy Norton wrote:I'll take a swing at your rainwater harvesting to help you flesh it out more if you haven't.

Do you have plans on incorporating a first flush filter or something similar for the water first coming off of the roof?

What is your plan for filtration/management to make the water potable?

Do you plan on where in your system you are going to locate a pump (Assuming you will need a pump to transport the water from the main tank) and incorporating some kind of redundancy in case of pump failure?

I'm not sure how cold your winters are, or where the tank is planned to be located, but freeze protection is something also to also consider and can be easier to flesh out in the planning stage before any work is done.

I hope this gets the wheel's turning or maybe you already have this stuff figured out!

Thank you for your questions!  

So here are our plans for the main house rainwater harvesting:

Dropdown with weephole first flush pipe - not huge though because the water will already be filtered through the lilyturf roots on the living roof.   Gravel, sand, charcoal filter on top of the tank.  In house Berkey filter for drinking/cooking water.

The tank will be mostly buried in the hill right next to the house and it doesn't get super cold for a long time where we're at, so it shouldn't freeze.  The bottom of the tank and the lines into the house will be below frostline (20" here).  We'll use a large RV pump to get our water where it needs to go.  Most of our essentials will be 12 volt even though we will have line electric.  We always have an extra pump available since we use one as a transfer pump.  We have access to city water in town if it happens to be super dry and we use more than the rain provides, but it isn't easy to put it in the tank (an incentive to conserve water).

We're doing a tiny system on the cabin to try out everything, but we're totally new at this so I'm SURE we will end up making adjustments on that.

I want to point out how fortunate you are to live in an area without strict zoning!  Good for you!  Good choice.  That makes these plans more accomplishable.  Where I live in OR there are zoning requirements that can get in the way.  Its not the strictest state ever, but its stricter than I'd like.

Riona Abhainn wrote:I want to point out how fortunate you are to live in an area without strict zoning!  Good for you!  Good choice.  That makes these plans more accomplishable.  Where I live in OR there are zoning requirements that can get in the way.  Its not the strictest state ever, but its stricter than I'd like.

That was a major reason we purchased the land. We looked at so many parcels in other areas that would have been great, but we couldn't do what we wanted.

Looks like a very good plan.  

On first scan, I would actually model/ visualise the solar path during over-heating season, & closely consider tree over-shading + natural ventilation, including especially swing days around the thermal mass.  

Your area is the largest producer of white oak staves in the world, so I assume that species, though your site is relatively small for agro-forestry it isn't for intensive tree cropping.  We're in similar precip area however warming & drying, where some black cherry, few black walnut, increasingly hickory, associate, but fire is coming.  

Patrik Schumann wrote:Looks like a very good plan.  

On first scan, I would actually model/ visualise the solar path during over-heating season, & closely consider tree over-shading + natural ventilation, including especially swing days around the thermal mass.  

Your area is the largest producer of white oak staves in the world, so I assume that species, though your site is relatively small for agro-forestry it isn't for intensive tree cropping.  We're in similar precip area however warming & drying, where some black cherry, few black walnut, increasingly hickory, associate, but fire is coming.  

Hi Patrik,

You are spot on about white oak.  I'd say 90% of our largest trees are white oak, the rest are hickory.  We have some maple, but it's all smaller (maybe up to 6").  We're on a north slope and it's VERY shady.  Almost no forbes or grasses (a little lilyturf, but it's very tolerant of shade).  The understory is mostly juvenile trees (oak, maple, hickory) with some understory shrubs (dogwood, sassafras).  Oh, and lots of mushrooms!

Like I said, we're much more concerned about heat rather than cold weather.  Here's what we're thinking to mitigate that:

We're on a north slope, so that helps already.  

There is lots of shade and we aren't planning on removing any large trees we don't have to for the building process - none at all on the west.

The south side of the house will be in the hill - not actually underground, but I'd say 70% buried.  The bedroom will be on that side to take advantage of the cool earth since sleeping is hard when it's hot.  The north side of the house will be earthbag insulated with strawbale.  The west side of the house will be partially earth bermed.  The east side will be shaded by a 6' porch roof.

There will be a 2' roof overhang all around the rest of the house.

We're putting in a lilyturf (liriope) green roof to keep everything cooler on top.  Lilyturf loves shade, so it'll grow even if we don't remove trees.

Breezes seldom reach into our valley unless they come from the north, but there will be windows that open - Large ones on the north, small, higher ones to the south.

Can you think of anything we are missing?  Have we overlooked something simple?

Thanks so much!!

Have you considered drainage away from your foundation? Take a read through Paul's Wofatti page to see how potential problems can be solved.

Congrats on your property!

I don't really have any feedback on your plans, but maybe some experience to share, because I have lived at my current property for about 11 years in maybe a similar climate on a north facing slope.

The thing about a north- facing slope is that you get less direct sun, especially if you already have trees. I'm in a valley, and my northern slope holds snow days or weeks longer than the southern slope, so the growing seasons seems shorter than the southern slopes a stone's throw away

I didn't have a choice, but I would put the tallest trees at the bottom of the slope and get shorter as I go up the slope to maximize sun exposure.

Fruit trees are supposed to be happy on a northern slope, but I've only really had luck with mulberries & paw paws, after we added ducks and their daily water input. Doesn't seem to be enough sun for normal sun fruit trees.

Our place has an 1890 farm house with a ton of windows on the northern & southern sides. We gain a bunch of passive solar, which is great in the winter, but not so good in the summer. Would be quite nice to have deciduous trees between our house & the sun. Awnings over the windows at the perfect angle would also help in the summer.

Water running down the slope is an interesting challenge. Our soil stays much less moist than anything level nearby. Swales or ponds at the top our your property will help hydrate things downslope. Also, water storage at the top of the slope will give you water pressure at the bottom of the slope. Our house is at the bottom of our property, maybe for this reason

Most houses built on slopes near us get wet basements when it rains, but not us due the  perfect placement of our driveway upslope from the house. I have added lots of features to slow and soak in rain, but the driveway is a great last line of defense for those big thunderstorm downpours.

We also have an old shed with a simple lean-to roof that drains upslope of the structure, which leads to rot...

Our north slope is perfect for mushrooms, and sounds like you will have plenty of logs for mushroom logs.

Do you have deer? They can make food forest establishment more difficult without a fence. I've been working on a brush tanglefoot fence around the perimeter of our property, and seems to bee a good low cost strategy the help keep the deer out.

Good luck & hope you post updates

Hi Rick,

Thank you for taking the time to share your experience.  I think I saw you are in Pensylvannia?  Heat is much less important than cooling here, so we're trying to set up everything that way.  We do have chilly months in the winter, so we're putting in a RMH and the houIse is just under 400 square feet, so that should keep it cozy enough.  

Your comments on drainage were super important.  We have plans to put in a gravel filled drain tile along the bermed wall as well as a EPDM pondliner against the wall to keep any moisture out.  We'll have to look into some swales uphill.  We'll be catching all the rainwater off every roof, so that should keep their "feet" dry.

Unfortunately, our access easement is the far north line of the property, so getting water uphill isn't really an option.  It would be nice to have automatic water pressure.

We do have deer.  I started a hedgerow of Bitter Orange right before we left.  Deer are supposed to leave that alone and it should make for a nice thorny barrier once it gets going - discouraging both two and four legged critters.  My garden will be fenced (the neighbor lets his goats and cow just wander all over), so that should help.  The food forest will be small and right in front of the house where the dog can chase the deer off.  We had a terrible time with deer in Wyoming too and would spray the plants with mint oil and hang bars of deodorant soap in the fruit trees.  It help, but certainly wasn't fool proof.

I think I'm going to try to grow some shitake mushrooms.  Most of my "food forest" plants will be native shrubs rather than actual fruit trees.  I may try some pole apples on the patio though - if there is enough sun.

Again, I really appreciate your taking the time to respond and you have given me some food for thought.

After struggling along with a similar project for the last few years, my biggest suggestions are to prioritize and be honest about what things cost in terms of time and money. If you don't have the ability to feed livestock without commercial feed, that eats up a lot of money. Ditto with fencing and so many other things. And it's practically impossibly to do livestock, and garden, and build infrastructure, and work jobs, and et cetera, so it's important to choose one or one and half things and do them well. And if you prioritize a garden first, not only are you eliminating some or all of your food expenses (as long as you save seeds and don't buy in fertility, etc.) for yourselves, you're also eliminating some or all of the food expense for the animals.

And just do less. Everything will take 10 times as long as expected, so don't fill your calendar with a bunch of tasks, all dependent on the completion of the last, and not be able to accomplish the necessary things in time. You can always do more if you're ahead, but it's very difficult to catch up if you overcommit to something that isn't actually that important. Focus on the one thing that will make everything else easier, more comfortable, or more efficient. Be careful about accepting unnecessary deadlines. Always ask yourself "Does this actually matter?" I accomplished way more the second I stopped trying to accomplish more.

Mathew Trotter wrote:After struggling along with a similar project for the last few years, my biggest suggestions are to prioritize and be honest about what things cost in terms of time and money. If you don't have the ability to feed livestock without commercial feed, that eats up a lot of money. Ditto with fencing and so many other things. And it's practically impossibly to do livestock, and garden, and build infrastructure, and work jobs, and et cetera, so it's important to choose one or one and half things and do them well. And if you prioritize a garden first, not only are you eliminating some or all of your food expenses (as long as you save seeds and don't buy in fertility, etc.) for yourselves, you're also eliminating some or all of the food expense for the animals.

And just do less. Everything will take 10 times as long as expected, so don't fill your calendar with a bunch of tasks, all dependent on the completion of the last, and not be able to accomplish the necessary things in time. You can always do more if you're ahead, but it's very difficult to catch up if you overcommit to something that isn't actually that important. Focus on the one thing that will make everything else easier, more comfortable, or more efficient. Be careful about accepting unnecessary deadlines. Always ask yourself "Does this actually matter?" I accomplished way more the second I stopped trying to accomplish more.

Thank you Mathew,

That's amazing advice for so many more things than homesteading.

I'll admit I have a propensity to being overly optimistic in how much can be gotten done in a given amount of time.  I also tend to bring in livestock before I'm completely ready for it.  I've made a solemn vow not go get any critters before the barn and paddock are done...wish me luck!!!

Hello Sherry!  

NY NutGrowers Ass. & others have been talking about edible acorns for a long time, though I don't have a line on any yet.  Shagbark hickory is supposed to be the best tasting of those nuts.  Red mulberry, wild grape, elder, hazel, hawthorn are likely components so any relatives/ substitutes of those.  Smith, JR (1929) Tree Crops: A Permanent Agriculture is a great source on European & Appalachian hill-farming best practices.  My siblings-in-law have a black walnut farm in Perryville, so perhaps we can meet to compare notes one day.  

I myself am a no-AC please, humid-warmth sufferer.  Even your latitude I think the sun rises & sets well N of E & W + is near overhead summer side of equinoxes, so you'll have some exposure.  Shade is good, breeze through openings is helpful, though interior stack ventilation might be the holy grail (& you might have that with higher windows on south.  

I'll have to ruminate on other aspects of your plan.  It's been a long day biking in frosty mist, planting black walnut seed in rocky ground, breaking ice on lake, & walking back sonny who stumbled in.  

Sherry Willis wrote:I'll admit I have a propensity to being overly optimistic in how much can be gotten done in a given amount of time.  I also tend to bring in livestock before I'm completely ready for it.  I've made a solemn vow not go get any critters before the barn and paddock are done...wish me luck!!!

If you're anything like me, you'll need it. 😂

Joylynn Hardesty wrote:Have you considered drainage away from your foundation? Take a read through Paul's Wofatti page to see how potential problems can be solved.

Hi Joylynn,

The initial plan is to put in a EPDM wrapped drain tile with gravel to ground level all the way along the wall where the house touches the hill.  It will continue to daylight to the west where there is a large gully.  The EPDM liner will continue up the side of the wall 6 - 12" above ground level.

Someone mentioned swales and we may put in a few of those up hill to deflect more water into the gully.  However; there are a lot of trees up there, so a swale might be a little hard to build.

Any other suggestions?

Thanks so much!

Mathew Trotter wrote:

Sherry Willis wrote:I'll admit I have a propensity to being overly optimistic in how much can be gotten done in a given amount of time.  I also tend to bring in livestock before I'm completely ready for it.  I've made a solemn vow not go get any critters before the barn and paddock are done...wish me luck!!!

If you're anything like me, you'll need it. 😂

Well....my history testafies against me...  (heehee!)

Patrik Schumann wrote:Hello Sherry!  

NY NutGrowers Ass. & others have been talking about edible acorns for a long time, though I don't have a line on any yet.  Shagbark hickory is supposed to be the best tasting of those nuts.  Red mulberry, wild grape, elder, hazel, hawthorn are likely components so any relatives/ substitutes of those.  Smith, JR (1929) Tree Crops: A Permanent Agriculture is a great source on European & Appalachian hill-farming best practices.  My siblings-in-law have a black walnut farm in Perryville, so perhaps we can meet to compare notes one day.  

I myself am a no-AC please, humid-warmth sufferer.  Even your latitude I think the sun rises & sets well N of E & W + is near overhead summer side of equinoxes, so you'll have some exposure.  Shade is good, breeze through openings is helpful, though interior stack ventilation might be the holy grail (& you might have that with higher windows on south.  

I'll have to ruminate on other aspects of your plan.  It's been a long day biking in frosty mist, planting black walnut seed in rocky ground, breaking ice on lake, & walking back sonny who stumbled in.  

I LOVE mulberry and intend to add that to the property line hedge.  It's amazing livestock fodder and seems to thrive on being cut.  I'm interested in hazel as well, but have no personal experience in growing it.  The state university has a tree program where you can order seedlings very economically.  They have both red mulberry and hazel, but they sell out very quickly so you have to order right away.  I may try to start some mulberry from cuttings this spring though.

I've done some research on preparing acorns and actually made an attempt to leach some in the river this fall.  It ended up being very full of silt (although the bitterness was gone).  I got them rinsed out and then discovered I didn't really have any way to get them dry before they molded.  So.... that's a next year project (if the cob oven is done).  Still, I learned a lot and my FIL has an amazing white oak tree with very large nuts that are super easy to shell.

I would LOVE to get together if you're in the area.  Fresh eyes from someone who has studied and DONE permaculture would be super welcome.

I know various mulberries, the red least & it has performed least too out west.  The sweetest have been the white & the largest the Pakistani.  

Other than wild, which produced this year out east but every nut taken, hazel has been a problem getting propagation-size material & blight-resistant is just now coming out of Rutgers.  

UKY has a big pawpaw program.  

For locally-adapted + experimental material & approaches, North American Fruit Explorers, Northern NutGrowers Association, etc, and there are several regional groups, have been invaluable sources & support.

Patrik Schumann wrote:I know various mulberries, the red least & it has performed least too out west.  The sweetest have been the white & the largest the Pakistani.  

Other than wild, which produced this year out east but every nut taken, hazel has been a problem getting propagation-size material & blight-resistant is just now coming out of Rutgers.  

UKY has a big pawpaw program.  

For locally-adapted + experimental material & approaches, North American Fruit Explorers, Northern NutGrowers Association, etc, and there are several regional groups, have been invaluable sources & support.

I'll definitely check those out!