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Is growing your own food a waste of time?

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posted 6 months ago

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“ Is growing your own food a waste of time?”

Generally never. But, It still depends on what one’s interests are.
It’s certainly not a black and white or either/or issue.

I love raising animals in the full circle permaculture way, and I don’t mind perennial growing. But I don’t enjoy the whole annual-planting-maintenance-and-effort that is required for these kinds of crops. It’s just never been my thing. I don’t hate it, i might even “like” it a bit, but in my free time, I’d just prefer going on a hike or for a swim, or make some art, or train my animals.

I feel about annual gardening the same way I feel about building my own rocket heater: They are essential and fantastic, but I’m just not interested enough (compared to other fulfilling pursuits), and thus I’ll save up and pay someone else to build me a great one, and plant my annuals, and in turn, I’ll grow their perennials, raise and train and doctor their holistically pastured animals, etc..

So, we have a near perfect CSA here, and we buy most of our annual veggies from them. I support their farm and my local community by distributing what we grow.

That said, We do garden w annuals a bit, and one day I’d like to say I grew that perfect crunchy, bitter, but sweet, head of escarole…
But mostly we grow perennials like artichokes and lots of varieties of fruit &berries, vines, cacti and potatoes, but nothing requiring pampering or real “gardening” work, and nowhere near enough veggies to feed us year round (though we could probably live on the meat and fruit we produce if we had to).
I feel that appropriate perennials are real money in the bank long term, and the most productive use of gardening time - for me 👍

I’m ever so interested in trees, the keystone species here are Valley Oaks and Coast Live Oaks. Oaks and their possible associated shrubs, forbs and grasses - especially if edible or forageable by animals, are absolute gold to me. And to local ecosystem health. I focus on that, a lot.

So yeah, annual gardening isn’t the best use of time for me, but it’s definitely never a WASTE of time.

paul wheaton

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posted 6 months ago

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Jay Angler wrote:One of the "problems" not mentioned so far, is the tendency for everything to ripen at once.

Currently, american staples are corn, wheat and soy.

I wonder if the laziest and most forgetful gardener can shift their staples to sunchokes, walking onions and kale. If you don't harvest, then you just get more. And if you forget to harvest in, say, september, they wait for you until october .... then november, december, january, february, march, april ... so patient. No rush.

Then, if you add in some apples, and you forget to harvest the apples, then the birds and wildlife get those. (or chickens, if you are that industrious) Or maybe you can sell or trade your apples. And if you do remember, you can harvest, eat, dry, can, etc.

Several times this year I threw a bunch of sunchokes, walking onions and kale into a crock pot. Free and easy.

Once these three become staples, then any other bits of gardening are fun for when you have a bit more gumption.

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Ac Baker

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posted 6 months ago

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Jay Angler wrote:One of the "problems" not mentioned so far, is the tendency for everything to ripen at once.

This is a really good point.

Some traditional varieties are not so 'synchronised' in ripening (not selected for a one-off harvest).

I think the most rewarding way to get the most from our harvests, if we have the community to support this approach, is sharing across many households.

There are so many benefits to everyone when we have had the opportunity to nurture that kind of community, such adls:
1. Longer availability of a wider variety of freshly harvested produce;
2. More people to help if there is a glut;
3. People who aren't in a position to grow much themselves can both benefit, and support growers in other ways (cooking, repairing things, helping with caring needz etc. etc.);
4. The opportunities for communal harvest parties .. etc.

We're trying to do more of this with our urban allotment gardening community.

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Gordon Blair

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posted 6 months ago

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The present economy coasts on finite & undervalued fossil-fuel inputs, like someone whose 'wealth' depends on a line of credit. Industrialised ag is an efficient calorie-producer--while it lasts.

I don't have a crystal ball, but we might see a time where there are fewer-still lucrative opportunities for the global majority to ride that hydrocarbon-powered gravy train. The cheap calories may dry up along with the oil. It might become important once more to be able to grow without chemical assistance. It may no longer come down to a calculation like: "Why garden when I can earn 20,000 calories in an hour?" because that possibility will only be for a few at the top of the pyramid.

Who knows? But I think this is one of many plausible arguments for permaculture. I watch Nate Hagens on YouTube sometimes--quite the rabbithole--he brings on all sorts of scientists and interesting people. He's convinced we're facing a 'great simplification' of society once there are no longer the energy resources to support extreme social complexity. He says the transition to this will be rough or smooth to the degree we're prepared. Again, I'm not committed to a belief that this is how things will pan out... Maybe someone will come up with abundant, near-free fusion energy and solve some of those problems...

Burra Maluca

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Gordon Blair wrote: Maybe someone will come up with abundant, near-free fusion energy and solve some of those problems...

I thought we already had one - the sun!

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tuffy monteverdi

Posts: 73

posted 6 months ago

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paul wheaton wrote:
“ I wonder if the laziest and most forgetful gardener can shift their staples to sunchokes, walking onions and kale. “

Personally I’d like staples to be alliums, potatoes/sw potatoes and aster greens like escaroles/chicories/dandelions, and yeah sunchokes are cool 👍 😊

tuffy monteverdi

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posted 6 months ago

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Douglas Alpenstock wrote:

Nathan Burton wrote:Money could save time, for sure. But how better could you possibly use that time?

It's a good question. I think everyone's situation is different. Some have obligations with work and family that must take priority. And to be honest, not everyone has the "farmer gene."

Yes 🙌
Not everyone loves farming, even though it’s so important.
I do love parts of it, but I leave the parts I’m not keen on, to others.

As to the question “how better to use the time?”
Gosh so many ways: cooking for family, reading, writing, teaching, training my animals, making art, composing music, gainful employment that helps others (in my case Vet medicine), hiking in the woods, kayaking, building a boat, building a house, sauna and swimming, visiting friends, whatever gives one joy and fulfillment. It’s not me, but Some people truly love running a business. 🤷‍♀️

M Ljin

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posted 6 months ago

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tuffy monteverdi wrote:

paul wheaton wrote:
“ I wonder if the laziest and most forgetful gardener can shift their staples to sunchokes, walking onions and kale. “

Personally I’d like staples to be alliums, potatoes/sw potatoes and aster greens like escaroles/chicories/dandelions, and yeah sunchokes are cool 👍 😊

Yes, there is a lot of room for variation!

Sam Thayer says that the components that make up a filling meal are as follows: some protein, some fat or carbohydrates, and phytochemicals. In Paul’s example kale is the protein and the rest are mostly nourishing, nutritious sources of carbohydrate. I’m guessing both the kale and walking onions are good phytochemicals.

I’ve personally found garlic easier to grow than walking onions, for instance. I think they’re more tolerant of the cold and wet (they thrive in it! Some grew up in the wettest, muddiest part of my wettest, muddiest garden path.) (Tangent: I was talking to someone the other day who planted daffodils near her house and they didn’t thrive, almost died. So then they replanted them in the swampy area by the river and they thrived and multiplied, among all the weeds, the fiddlehead and angelica… so much for well drained soil!) Getting back to the subject, sunchokes are quite widespread in the wild here, though I’ve been investigating cultivating Canada lily as a root vegetable. And kale is good too. I might as well add in sochan and dame’s rocket too. Not sure—there is such overwhelming diversity of greens and delicious plants, the thought of only three… it’s good for simplicity’s sake though as overcomplication can be a hurdle when getting started with permaculture.

I was thinking that in a good permaculture situation with such lazy gardener vegetables, you could help your neighbor get started by dividing all your plants and replanting the divided part on your neighbor’s land. And then when they are all recovered do the same thing again, this time both of your gardens asexually reproducing, like budding. It sort of happens naturally, but perhaps could be helped along.

Marshall Ashworth

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Location: Kaitaia, Northland, New Zealand

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Well there is one thing i can say for certain, here in New Zealand, supermarkets have been offering fewer and fewer options for varieties.

So for a moment lets brace ourselves for my sarcasticly laced but accurate rant.

I'm going to focus specifically here on apples, but lets for a moment add a caviat that fruit is now the only multi choice thing aside from potatoes left in the fresh vegetable section. Everything else they have one choice of. There are no longer different choices for any other vegetables, only difference in colours; but varieties, they are all gone.

We're down to three choices for variety of apples, they don't even bother labelling them as varieties on the packaging anymore. It's cooking apple, dessert apples and fresh apple. Maybe you might find the words "gala" or "granny smith" on the price tag on the shelf; definitely printed in tiny font on the sticker on every apple, but it's been reduced to so few options that they basically just tell you how you can use it and those are your options. No brands, no farm labels. Just this is what its for.

And it seems to be spreading to all the isles in the supermarket, they keep taking more and more options off the shelves. So much so, that my local supermarket had space to put in a pickup drive through area inside the store without having to add on to the building; just rearrange a few shelves out the way and 4 days later there's a pickup depot wedged in the corner of the store

So when it comes to "is it worth your time anymore" I think this is more about choice, and I for one want to be able to tell whether i'm eating an apple or a pear. It's gotten that bad now, the only clue its a pear is the texture. No flavour, just the texture. Saving varieties for future generations at this point is my ultimate goal as opposed to "you should grow your own food because its healthier" or about saving money. With GMO and other factors like apeel also creeping in; i'd rather stick to gardening and have an overabundance and it go to waste.

400 varieties of just apples exist, every supermarket has the same 3, every fruit and vege shop has the same 3.

Makes you wonder where all the other apple varieties have gone. I for one know i have 6 other varieties from cuttings i got from a facebook group; and i plan on expanding to a lot more varieties of pears etc. considering where the grocery hell seems to be heading. A world where you get to eat what the store tells you to eat.

And to add to it all, you can't even give the excess crop away anymore, because .. the government.

Seems a little drastic to say with all the starving and homeless people but shhh no thinking.

Lets just say, when i move onto my next block of land, i am considering having the fence around my house and the greenhouses and maybe have the trees "a little exposed" for people to help themselves. Because technically its not me giving it away; and i'm not going to complain about someone taking a burden off my shoulders.

I don't see it as paranoia anymore, i see it as survival instinct and saving what i can before they hush it all away and make everyone just eat bugs.

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Douglas Alpenstock

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Interesting observations! I can only speak for the situation around here, where supermarkets tend to stock varieties of produce they can supply to customers on a more-or-less reliable basis. These are businesses, doing what their customers expect. The variety remains fairly good, though the current *ahem* "politics" means there is more produce from a wide variety of global sources, some fantastic, some middling. The ethnic vegetables are in good supply also. Overall, the selection doesn't seem to indicate any lack of choice.

Does your government actually prohibit you from giving away free apples? Pardon my skepticism, but I find that hard to believe.

Marshall Ashworth

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Location: Kaitaia, Northland, New Zealand

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Douglas Alpenstock wrote:Interesting observations! I can only speak for the situation around here, where supermarkets tend to stock varieties of produce they can supply to customers on a more-or-less reliable basis. These are businesses, doing what their customers expect. The variety remains fairly good, though the current *ahem* "politics" means there is more produce from a wide variety of global sources, some fantastic, some middling. The ethnic vegetables are in good supply also. Overall, the selection doesn't seem to indicate any lack of choice.

Does your government actually prohibit you from giving away free apples? Pardon my skepticism, but I find that hard to believe.

Under the food act, food growers must follow strict guidelines about what is used on food, pesticide levels, compounds etc.

Unfortunately the rule applies to businesses or commercial interests (We are setup as a trust) but can also affect individuals

Permaculture isn't a recognized science here, spraying of neem, and use of worm juice & other unrecognized practices are considered "unsafe"
We would need to be registered ($385 + tax), certified organic ($544 + tax /3 yr), and have regular inspections ($132 per inspection)

https://www.mpi.govt.nz/legal/legislation-standards-and-reviews/food-safety-legislation/introduction-to-food-safety-legislation/

In New Zealand, selling unsafe food can lead to hefty fines, with a maximum penalty of $100,000 for a body corporate and $20,000 for an individual. The Food Act 2014 outlines the penalties for various offenses, including those related to food safety.
Here's a more detailed look:

Fines:
The Food Act 2014 specifies that selling unsafe food can result in a fine, the maximum amount varying depending on whether the offender is a company or an individual.

Enforcement:
The Ministry for Primary Industries plays a key role in enforcing the Food Act and ensuring food businesses comply with regulations.
Risk Management:
Food businesses are required to follow risk management programs or food control plans to ensure the safety of their food products.
Instant Fines:
The Act allows for instant fines for minor offenses, enabling swift action by food safety officers.
Safe and Suitable Food:
The definition of "safe and suitable" food is outlined in the Food Act, with the core principle being that safe food won't make people sick.

----------------

Interpretation : Lawyer speak :

In New Zealand, donating food that subsequently makes someone sick is generally protected under the "Good Samaritan" clause of the Food Act 2014. However, this protection only applies if the food was safe and suitable when donated, and the recipient received any necessary information to keep it safe. If the donating business did not follow these guidelines, they could face potential legal action.
Here's a more detailed explanation:

Good Samaritan Clause:
The Food Act 2014 includes a "Good Samaritan" clause that shields businesses from civil and criminal liability if they donate food that subsequently causes someone to become ill.

Conditions for Protection:
This protection is conditional. The donating business must ensure the donated food was safe and suitable when it was given away. They also need to provide the recipient with any necessary information to ensure the food remains safe, such as shelf life or storage instructions.
Potential Liability:
If the donating business fails to meet these conditions (e.g., the food was not safe when donated, or necessary information was not provided), they could be held liable for any damages caused.
Enforcement:
The Ministry for Primary Industries (MPI) can investigate complaints and take enforcement action if necessary, which may include prosecution in serious cases

---------------

In other words if someone get sick and blames us for it and they inspect and find something minor (like say cow paddy under a fruit tree that they can point to, even if its unrelated to the timing of the harvested fruit) i get fined for giving away free food. Not worth it.

Lawyer says no. Too much of a grey area

Unqualified self taught mad scientist focusing on Biodiversity & Natural Biological Research

Marshall Ashworth

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Location: Kaitaia, Northland, New Zealand

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Douglas Alpenstock wrote:Interesting observations! I can only speak for the situation around here, where supermarkets tend to stock varieties of produce they can supply to customers on a more-or-less reliable basis. These are businesses, doing what their customers expect. The variety remains fairly good, though the current *ahem* "politics" means there is more produce from a wide variety of global sources, some fantastic, some middling. The ethnic vegetables are in good supply also. Overall, the selection doesn't seem to indicate any lack of choice.

Does your government actually prohibit you from giving away free apples? Pardon my skepticism, but I find that hard to believe.

we don't have the equipment of say a commercial grower to have mechanical washing equipment, or the means to staff a packing shed to wash, clean and package the items for delivery. I also can't guarantee that all the fruit is in good condition since that would involve inspecting each and every variety given i grow various trees that don't always fall in the same picking window. we are a poly culture farm not a mono culture where its easy to manage that.

also, i can't guarantee there aren't bugs on the food, we don't spray petrochemicals. Unfortunately they frown on larvae in fruit etc. And we aren't large enough scale to continuously donate in any case. I maybe produce 1500 pounds right now, that will scale as the trees age but the point is we don't have the capacity to guarantee the safety given it's just me and a farm hand on site right now.

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Klaus Wolfgang

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posted 6 months ago

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Samantha Lewis wrote:
I am now producing all my own meat, eggs and milk. It feels great to go to the grocery store and not really need anything.

That's quite impressive, how much land realistic is needed for a steady supply of milk? It seems like you'd end up with way too many cows/goats/etc and would need to either butcher or sell them off pretty frequently, not that that's a bad thing.

Douglas Alpenstock

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Marshall Ashworth wrote:
And to add to it all, you can't even give the excess crop away anymore, because .. the government.

Seems a little drastic to say with all the starving and homeless people but shhh no thinking.

Lets just say, when i move onto my next block of land, i am considering having the fence around my house and the greenhouses and maybe have the trees "a little exposed" for people to help themselves. Because technically its not me giving it away; and i'm not going to complain about someone taking a burden off my shoulders.

Ah, okay, I looked at your posts and now I get your frustration. I don't claim to know the whole story, but the restrictions you present seem excessive. Around here, people are encouraged to harvest waste and backyard "windfall" fruit. Liability might extend to unsafe premises, but not to the produce unless there is pretty clear malice or negligence.

Some ideas:
Do these rules apply to U-pick situations, provided you offer full disclosure of growing methods, potential hazards/imperfections, and have a signed document indicating people understand and accept? Could they pre-buy a share of a harvest, making it their property?

Perhaps interested people could buy 1/4 of an apple tree? Then you're selling the tree, not the fruit, and what people do with their own property is their own business.

What about apples for cider? Could you sell juice ready for fermentation, or juicing facilities for 1/4 apple tree owners, and fly under the radar?

Klaus Wolfgang

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posted 6 months ago

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Nancy Reading wrote:
Is it a waste of time to grow your own food - does it take such a lot of time that you could just earn the money instead and buy the food?

Well, this will always be circumstantial, but I'd like to make the argument that in most scenarios as long as you have some space to grow that it's worthwhile.

Most of us can't work more than we already do. Now i know your gut reaction is that sounds dumb! Many people however, have a full time 40 hour salaried job. Working extra hours doesn't increase pay, so another job is required to increase income. This increased income comes with many serious drawbacks, primarily being that it's a big commitment. It's hard to find a part time second job that allows me to work whenever i want, take as much paid time off as i want, and work any hours i want. Without that, a second job isn't ever worth it to me.

On top of that, many of us now have office jobs, and even if i could find some magic flexible job like that it would certainly be online, and i already work ,8 hours at a desk. I want to get outside at least a little in my free time, and if it's not gardening it's probably a hobby that costs me money instead of saving me money.

People like to weigh the dollars per hour or whatever it may be between gardening and working, but i think for most people in the real world, they aren't able to just stay at work later instead, so a financial comparison doesn't really make sense. If you do have a job where you can get paid overtime at will, then more power to you, but 40 is plenty for me and I'd rather do something different that i enjoy outside.

For me, i weigh gardening against my other hobbies, and this is the only one that consistently saves me money and gives me something better than i could buy in cash (it's really hard to find vegetables in a store that can beat a home garden, and it will never be as fresh).

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