giant gardener guy, pretty old and wore out, with a 100% failure rate in relationships

A lot of my feelings have been reflected in other posts.  I won't bother repeating what's been said before, but wanted to add that there are women out there having a similar experience to yours, and wanting the same things you want.  For whatever reasons, we have have a hard time finding a romantic partner with matching values even when we immerse ourselves in things that express and explore those values as you have.  
Some believe it's karma; and that can provide a comforting sense of knowing; but who knows if they're right.  I know it's better to be alone than to be with the wrong person, and take great comfort in that as I head into old age on my own- and with a lot less experience and know how than you as I try to create a homestead in my fifties.  

I don't consider all my past romantic relationships failures.  Some were failures until they ended.  Others turned into friendships and were great successes even if we drifted apart.  I think the only failure is when we know someone isn't right for us and we stay rather than be alone or deal with the confrontation and mess that a break up entails and so let ourselves go numb.  I'm guilty of that.

While I think it's important you not compromise on core values, that doesn't mean you can't explore a relationship with someone who doesn't check all your boxes.  Just let them know things won't be moving past friendship if they don't understand your perspective-  and both of you must be willing to compromise.  For some women wearing makeup is artistic expression, and they are not right for you (although there is non toxic makeup and some women make their own from natural products, these women will probably want to be appreciated for their glamour). Other women feel they are not taken seriously or found attractive without makeup.  They would love to know their man actually hates it and it would give them the courage to face society with a naked face if they knew their man had their back.  They have other women policing them, friends and sisters telling them they need it and it makes many of us insecure and confused about what men like.  
I know a few women who don't smoke anything or drink alcohol but allow their man to do it outside the house on the porch.  When the right man came along, it was a compromise they didn't mind making.   When the chemistry is there, sometimes a few things can be more negotiable... or not.  

My advice on this and most things is to just stay open.  You never know where life will take you, and who or what will turn up when.  
More advice- do yoga!  So many women who are dedicated to a yoga practice long for a man to join them who doesn't drink or smoke or pollute his body and would support them with a permaculture produced bounty of food and clean living!!! and you are the unicorn they have been dreaming about!


and a little more advice- get a dog if you don't already have one. It seems to me like way more women want dogs in their life than men.  If you want to get attention from random women, just walk your dog.  Walk your dog past the yoga studio.  Walk your three legged, one eared rescue dog past the yoga studio- clean living women who want a homesteading lifestyle will think you are the compassionate man of their dreams.  I know- dogs are a pain in the ass and can be dangerous.  But most chicks like dogs these days, especially the all natural, living off the land types.  

… too bad you’re not into Jesus and pine cones. (But hopefully my joke makes you laugh as hard as it’s making me.)

If I were single (and I am both suitable and not suitable in all sorts of other ways) I would be put off by the expectation of failure.
Why expect failure in relationship? Do you want someone who sees you as a challenge, not as a partner? Or as a partner in a doomed venture?
Everything has a lifespan.
Getting to the end can and often is seen as failure. Not a very realistic stance, but one I'm struggling with every time I see my wrinkles or feel how my old body doesn't do what it once did. But really, that's a success, I got this far.
Convincing oneself to accept a certain outcome as final is simply trying to avoid seeing what's further along. One might end up single. One might end up partnered. One might end up grieving. One might end up thinking about dead ends rather than being willing to keep following that little trace that might be a path around the other side of that boulder, just to find out.
But no one in their right mind wants a partner who has his mind set that relationships are not going to work and that he is torturing her with his companionship.

Hi Paul,

I honestly think your face is like one of the famous movie stars or you can play as Abraham on the next movie cast opportunity (we only live once).

I guess being single is permissible if you have 100% failure rate. Was thinking if you can find someone with that same confident (100% failure rate); you might have found your match indeed .

I have just recently tried to learn permaculture and BB and SKIP; it's a great thing that this community has built here. I'm delighted to join the process and hoping we can actually bring this community up for a greater extend digitally through a mobile app.

Can please let me know, would you be willing to join my app as one of our contributors along with the community members?

We would need a LOOOOOOOOOTTTTT more people to be aware of pemaculture, so this world doesn't feel at stuck /stagnant when A.I grows, because mankind actually also grow better (with permaculture skills - woohoo).

Please let me know if I can share the app link on this forum to share it to others too. I hope it will entice more users to join permies also, especially to be successful at SKIP program (and really help others along the way).

Thanks,
Gracia Jessica

Jess - welcome to permies! Have a look at advertising your stuff. Becoming a contributing member is the best way to build goodwill.

I hear you Paul. I was allergic to metal embedded in my ears (even the hypoallergenic kind), nail polish and bras suffocate me slowly and recoil at the flagrant use of the 'plants/fungi of the gods'.
You covered a lot but the medical interventions really are endless, spanning every stage of a woman's life. And yes, I agree, nature holds great promise for romantic attachment or at the very least, a lull from the loneliness.

Paul -
Gotta say I am kinda in awe at the capacity you have to put yourself out there. In so many ways, authentically, consistently, unapologetically YOU, anchored in a non-dominant emerging paradigm that is inviting the world to catch up.  You shine a big spark that makes a big foot print - or maybe that should be life print.  We have not met in person but you have had a big presence in my life.

That is surely true for SO MANY peeps. And you are high up there in your Permaculture scale (hail to Sepp Holzer way up at the top,)  likely in the 'looks crazy' zone for lots of the ordinary everyday Level 1 peeps who plant an organic garden and recycle, and follow the usual social customs of tats and weed, booze and makeup, hair dye and big cowboy belt buckles, pesticides, 'poo and deodorant. Just as that level 1 is looking pretty goofy to you.

Maybe not the easiest life path for partnering?  Just not that many completely passionate non-dominant emerging paradigm peeps out there in the freakishly tiny minority!  Allan Nation (Stockman Grass Farmer) used to imply that there was a limit to how much weird and non-mainstream a farmer's neighbors could endure. He'd say 'You can be a Buddist. You can be a nudist. But you can't be a Buddhist nudist'.  The more vivid and bonkers a person's life is, the more it seems the likely pool for partnering inversely narrows.

I am also the graduate of plenty of relationships / connections / marriages. Also extreme in the non-dominant paradigm life path. I saw homeopathy heal my really sick kid in 1988. It turned my life upside down to see something so obviously weird and wacky as microdosed energy medicine that worked so undeniably.  I could no longer live in the normal conventional medical (or anything else, really) world built on traditions of doctors in my family for 5 generations back. I went back to school to retrain for a new career as a homeopath. After decades of practice, and teaching and publishing, and creating an online community training portal  (sorta like permies for homeopaths, but much less indexable by Google), being a big spark in a tiny puddle of an alternate paradigm (which happens to be so far beyond the pale in America that just saying 'homeopath' outloud can end a conversation), the true and honest nature of who I am and how that expresses itself in the modern American world hasn't exactly overlapped easily with partnering.

That does not mean the life path didn't also have graceless moments, short sightedness and human frailties. Those are there on everybody's path, and hopefully the chunks get smoothed in the rock tumbler of experience. And yet, there was also the option to dim our shine, to bank our fires, to shut our mouths, to be different than we are in order to be normal, accepted or acceptable, in order to maintain a relationship or connection  (a romance, a job, a business relationship, whatever).  Looks like we didn't take that fork in the road.  

And now here we are. Pretty old. Some worn. Survived our encounter with cancer. Still committed to our spark. Reflecting. Informed by history, but if history were the only factor, permaculture wouldn't really work, would it?  

Maybe the forum post title: 'giant gardener guy, pretty old and wore out, whose remarkable fiery and occasionally boisterous care has inspired many, who cross-pollinated in relationships (possibly  surprisingly given how perma(counter)culture this guy is) and learned whatever from those, in that permaculture sort of observe-what-happens-through-the-seasons-and-choose-next-steps approach is now seeking... a way forward' is a not-inaccurate message?  

I guess that might have been too long for a title?

If your romantic life were a permaculture landscape (or mine, Lordy - that sure went through some tillage, compaction, clear cut, dry times and mud - same probably many of the peeps on permies), there would be a way forward?

I am content with my solo life, and like you it would be great to find a magical relationship - A value-add to a bonkers life  (which history says is not gonna happen.)

And life happens for each of us. Sending best wishes that within the 'freakishly tiny minority' that so many of us live within, there is connection and comfort and joy for you, who have given richly to a shared reality we value.

Hi Paul, happy fall! This is a new account, but I was around these forums for many years before under a fuller version of my name, which I had to get rid of for complicated reasons related to stalking by an ex. Not your fault and not anything wrong with Permies forums.

I grok a lot of what you're saying here, but I'm curious about something. You've detailed what traits you dislike in a woman, and/or the traits that indicate to you a mismatch in values and priorities. What I didn't see a ton of was description of what kind of woman you DO envision when you think about a person who could be appealing and a well suited partner to you. Who is she?

You mentioned that you have had a lot of breakups. I don't necessarily think that's a red flag, because each of those partings is an opportunity for learning about yourself. With the exception of truly abusive situations, I think that the issues that come up in relationships that lead to breakups are almost always caused by both people in that relationship. So, what have you learned about how you relate in romantic contexts? Just as some possible examples that are very common among people who have strong special interests and passions:
- Do you monopolize conversations, even if unintentionally?
- Do you get so focused on tasks related to your interests and passions that you stay up late reading, writing, doing projects etc and often don't come join your partner in bed until long after they are asleep?
- Do you expect them to meet your needs and expectations but feel cornered and pressured when they come to you with concerns that their needs aren't being met?

I know many people would read the above as accusatory and might even conclude I'm calling them a bad person. Not at all. I think good, kind, well intentioned people can develop any and all of those alienating traits/habits in a relationship, and many more I didn't list.

You're an earthworker. If something you planted doesn't thrive, you examine the potential causes, right? If the roof is leaking, you assess it and don't just ignore it until it gets worse. Can you say the same about how you show up in romantic contexts?

I don't think romantic relationships need to be the primary axis of our lives, but if you posted this it seems like there is something about romantic connections that you don't get from general community, and that you are missing now, enough to wonder if you might bump into your natural-haired, non tattooed, makeupless, sober main squeeze in the grocery aisle (and feeling discouraged that you don't). You have chosen lifeways that aren't shared (yet!!!) by 99% of the people on this continent and so yes, that means the probability of the chance encounter with a compatible person is low. However, if it does, will you have done the individual work so that you're able to show up for that person in the attentive, affectionate, communicative, collaborative ways they deserve?

Also, hello! 👋🏻 I'm a 40 year old single woman, also with a 100% failure rate in relationships. No hair dye or fake nails (or lashes). One tattoo from impulsive late teenage decisions over 20yrs ago, one piercing in each ear that I forget to wear earrings in for weeks at a time. I wear makeup as part of the pretending I have had to do in career environments, but rarely otherwise. It's a mask, not me. I have maybe 10 alcoholic drinks a year and never more than one in a sitting, almost always hard cider or wine. If I hang out with friends who are having a couple drinks I usually have kombucha or tepache. I haven't been drunk in 17 years. I don't smoke (or vape, or eat) cannabis. No tobacco either. No other drugs.

I've been gardening all my life and savvy to permaculture since about 2014. Most of the photo roll on my phone is scenery photos, garden photos, cool mushrooms, critter friends, my kid and his adventures, and screenshots of recipes that sound yummy.

For the last 7 years I've lived in the beautiful Willamette Valley in Oregon, in a little rental house with a big bookshelf and a bigger garden. My landlady is a permie, and is delighted that I've significantly reduced the square footage of stupid lawn in the years I've been here. My one child is recently grown up, and I am free from constraints of a toxic coparenting situation for the first time in 15 years. I am beginning to dream about what the next chapter of my life can be. I spent the last few years working in administration/student support services at a community college but my job position was cut at the end of June. I have had a restful summer in the garden while doing the bare minimum job searching required to collect UI, but my heart's not in it. Based on my most recent resume entries, I could easily move forward into another job in an office chair under fluorescent lights, but I'm damn tired of it. The time I spent coordinating a community garden, the year I tried out a market garden, the 7 years that I have run the largest food gardening group in my county....those have been my happiest times and most meaningful applications of my time and energy. I am reinventing currently so that I hopefully never have to be an office drone again and can spend the coming years living a daily life I don't feel like I need to escape from.

This is the closest thing to a "putting myself out there in the dating world" I've written in quite awhile. Dating apps are wretched, and running into a sweet soul in the grocery store can be a crapshoot, too. I have care and enthusiasm to share with some kind of weirdo out there in this wild world, though.

Pen pals? soilseedandsun@proton.me

paul wheaton wrote:...   seeking ...   probably nothing.  I am trying to find a path to being okay running solo.  While it would be great to find that magical relationship, my history says it is not gonna happen. And effort spent in seeking a connection will probably be frustrating for everybody involved.  For every connection that lasts more than a year, there are a half dozen attempts that end - usually with the downsides outweighing the upsides.

Here is a recent video of me (seems appropriate that if a person is gonna post to this forum to include a pic).

I have pretty much convinced myself to remain perpetually single.  I am writing this not to seek a partner, but to, instead, make whiney sounds about the women i see and how i prefer to remain single than start something.   And these same women are most likely thinking "oh good - that worked out perfectly for everybody!"

I suspect that 99% of people will find what I am about to write absolutely unacceptable.  To those I wish to point out that it seems that my values and standards are different from yours.  


Every few weeks I run errands in missoula.  I always stop off at the good food store.  For the last 5+ years I have been single, so there is this tiny inkling of a thought that I might meet a nice gal there.   Nope. And then I think "probably for the best."



I have zero tats or piercings.  I do not use artificial color in my hair nor do I use any make up.  I have never owned anything like that.  It seems like this stuff is what everybody is into now.  I am bonkers about permaculture - and a big part of that is how to romance nature so a symbiotic relationship can lead to a greater, healthier, more vibrant life.   Artificial hair color runs contrary to all that - and it is a class 1 carcinogen, right up there with smoking and asbestos.  I like the idea of finding a gal that will want to do all this stuff with me, but if she is loaded with toxins, it seems contrary to the path I seek.


When I was 11 I lived with my grandad on a cattle ranch.  We worked the ranch.  I have never owned a cowboy hat, cowboy boots or a cowboy belt buckle.  I remember the expression "all hat and no cows."  I saw a lot of people sporting the cowboy (or cowgirl) look, but they have never spent time on a ranch.  

I wonder if there is a similar thing for permies?  


I've never perused the postings of women here looking for a mate. But I have looked at a lot of threads here because this forum seems to need a lot of moderation.  When checking a woman's thread, it sounds like a lot of them are finding matches - which is great.  And ....  for most of them ....  I don't get it, but to each their own.   Most of the posts don't seem very permaculture to me.  


There was a gal here in the bootcamp last spring.  Mighty wholesome.  Young - 20-something is my guess.  On her last day she told stephen and i something about her life before arriving here.  something about makeup and false eyelashes.  I musta made some sort of face that was entertaining.  Everything we are doing here seems to be the complete opposite of false eyelashes.  And  the process of installing false eyelashes just seems ... uncomfortable.   If it takes five minutes to install false eyelashes, it just seems like the same five minutes would be better spent gardening or reading or visiting with somebody (about permaculture, of course!).  



A guy was in the bootcamp last spring and after a few weeks he said "check it out!"  He was proud of his new tat of a honey bee.  My reaction was not what he was looking for.  I said "you know that the ink is toxic, right?"  I guess I couldn't appreciate the art because all my brain cells were hyper focused on the toxicity.  


A coupla years ago a nice gal that seemed to be showing strong interest in me.  I wasn't interested.  She clearly liked weed and I don't.  There were other things, but the weed thing is enough for me to pump the brakes.


I used to drink alcohol once every few years.  A long time ago a friend went through some shit and needed a drinking buddy.  He rolled his eyes at my fruity drink.  He thought it was so silly he took a pic



And then while fighting cancer with "food as medicine" I learned that hooch is a class 1 carcinogen.  Well, it is mighty easy for me to ditch all hooch - I don't really like it anyway.



There are heaps of great peeps that love hooch, drugs, tats, piercings, tobacco, conventional foods, etc.  Many of them come here for events or the bootcamp or to rent a cabin for a bit ...   after years of moderating this forum and working with the rest of the staff to say "ya gotta let these people fly their own freak flag" I just felt the urge to fly my freak flag.  I know I am not just in the minority, but it is a freakishly tiny minority.  

I know that there will be a few hundred people angry at me for having values that are different from their own values.  I would like to ask those people to embrace their values and allow me to have my values.  

I cannot imagine attempting a date.  It seems like the odds are very high that i would be simply torturing an innocent woman with these values.   And this doesn't even touch my brutally arrogant philosophies.  



I share this here with the idea that there might be other single folks that have some similar values.  Are there people reading this with similar values?  What might I have left out?

Oh well, that’s the way it is. Not my business.

Exactly how I feel.  Not my business.  All of these people are travelling a path that is so very different from mine.  They get to.  All good.  They are normal and I am the one that is weird.  When I go to the good food store, or to some permaculture-aligned event, I am surprised at how overly weird i am.  And that's just on the surface.  To sit down with somebody, i think it would be quickly exposed that i am far too weird.  

That very weirdness is, i think, screwing up my greater mission.  Rocket mass heaters are a great example.   A level 3 person could probably be far more persuasive.  I just sound nuts.  

It could be a bit like looking for a new car to replace your old prius.  You can talk to people that have a new car and can tell you what they like.  But you probably would not care to talk to an obsessed race car mechanic, or an obsessed hyper-miler, or an obsessed cyclist, or an obsessed stay-home-all-the-time person.


We recently put out a video that is something like "data centers drive energy prices up. Rocket mass heaters drive prices down. Why don't you have a rocket mass heater?"  ...   the idea was that millions of people have strong feels about data centers and yet know nothing about rocket mass heaters.    I think this video explores this point perfectly.  If I sit down with a person that is passionate about "stop the data centers" and I reply with "why don't you have a rocket mass heater?" ...  i think that doesn't go over well.   But a normal person would probably be aligned with "stop the data centers" and, a few days later say something about how rocket mass heaters are cool.

The wise way is to find a way to re-wire myself to have the more effective message.  To be a person that is a more acceptable match for a gal.  Wise.  Strategy.  And yet ...  not being true to myself.  


And I think that is the core of this whole thread.  I would rather have my values and be alone, than be wise and in a relationship.   Therefore, I double down on the pursuit of my wack-a-doo-stuff and embrace a sort of flavor of being solo.

More advice- do yoga!  

I do a small amount as part of my current physical therapy.

I explored the idea of going to a class in missoula for geezers ...  mostly because i am concerned there are details i would be doing wrong and a proper instructor would correct me.  i even went so far as to figure out what sort of clothes would be appropriate.  And now i own a yoga mat.  As i was trying to pick a class and a day, shit happened, and I needed to put in a lot of time on projects.  So that stuff is in a box waiting to see if i might try it again.

Why expect failure in relationship?

Excellent question.

I would say I don't expect failure.  I could even explore the idea that at least one relationship had more upsides than downsides.  So while it ended up being non-permanent, it might not count as "fail."  

I do think that a woman would have some basic relationship expectations and I would most likely not meet those expectations.  Therefore failure as an expectation for the future - thus your question is valid.

Further, most of my past relationships had more downsides that upsides.  Ouch.  Therefore fail.  And with a long enough list like this, I need to think that for the happiness of women everywhere it would be best for me to withdraw from the attempts.  

Hence the core of this thread:  I am attempting to be cool with being solo.

We have not met in person but you have had a big presence in my life.

Cool!

Allan Nation (Stockman Grass Farmer) used to imply that there was a limit to how much weird and non-mainstream a farmer's neighbors could endure. He'd say 'You can be a Buddist. You can be a nudist. But you can't be a Buddhist nudist'.  

Excellent point!

To embrace Allan's point and to find a way for the crudist, buddist nudists ...  live at the end of the road and choose to not engage with the neighbors.  

The more vivid and bonkers a person's life is, the more it seems the likely pool for partnering inversely narrows.

Exactly.

I grok a lot of what you're saying here

Woven into a single word is "I read that book too!"

what kind of woman you DO envision when you think about a person who could be appealing and a well suited partner to you. Who is she?

Mostly what I have shared is physical attributes.  I go to the good food store and think: nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope,  .....    The result of this is put a lot more into "I think it is time for me to be solo."  This result is achieved without having to torture these nice people with my philosophies or opinions.

I remember when I was in high school, a beautiful girl sat me down and asked me what my "type" was.  I wasn't able to say much of anything before some rude teacher interrupted and pointed out that this discussion is not what school is for.  :)   Later, I remember thinking "I am poverty boy.  I don't get to date, so therefore having a type is pointless."  I honestly didn't have a type.  

I would have to say:  kind.  With my old age I have discovered that most people interpret "kind" as "always perfectly obedient."  So I suppose I would have to qualify "kind" with "whatever feels kind to me.  Which probably doesn't have any of that obedient stuff in it."   I guess I am all done with folks being mean to me.  Usually in an attempt to get something from me.  And it isn't just me - I have seen a lot of couples being mean.  Or "friends".  Most of the relationships that i put solidly in the "fail" column were ones where i walked away because of this sort of darkness.  I don't want to play the "mean" game.  I would rather withdraw.

Another:  into this flavor of permaculture stuff.  Either a full life that is something that fits well with what i am doing here, or a full life of helping me move all this forward.  

Do you monopolize conversations, even if unintentionally?

Yes.

I was asked to attend a birthday party with a bunch of people I don't know.  They have never heard of permaculture, so I am nobody.  I made it a point to sit in the distant corner with a goal of being nobody.  Apparently, I ruined the party.  About 40 people.  They were supposed to shout "happy birthday!" when the birthday girl arrived ("girl" is probably not the right word here, as she was turning 80 on this day).  Instead, everybody was piled into one corner of the room listening to some obnoxious guy in the corner wearing overalls.  

Even at permaculture events i try to sit in a corner.  Even at my own place i try to sit in the corner.  My arrogance and my thing about monopolizing conversations is just too much for most people.  So if I hold still, the people that seem to be cool with it come closer and the people where it is too much go to the other end of the room.  

I suppose a healthy person would say "if you are so irritating, wouldn't it be better to stop doing that?"   In the words of the great philosopher Popeye "I yam what I yam and that's all that I yam."  My solution has been to keep my irritating self away from those that would find me irritating.  

Which is exactly why i choose to not date.  I suspect that this "monopolize conversations" thing would be torture on a date.  I don't want to torture nice people.

I could easily move forward into another job in an office chair under fluorescent lights, but I'm damn tired of it.

While still going to that same job with the same chair and the same lights, I became a bit obsessed with permaculture.  And created this site.  My permaculture obsession made it a challenge to get the full 40 hours a week in.  Permies.com is now 21 years old.  

I just feel it in my bones that I can conduct massive change for the better.  I thought by now i would be 1000x further along.  And I just can't seem to stop.  But I cannot imagine returning to a desk job.

marie-helene kutek wrote:

It’s lonely.

Excruciatingly, bewilderingly lonely.

Even when you’re surrounded by people.
Even when you know more than ever.
Even when your heart is opening and your soul is expanding…

There’s a silence that settles.
There’s a distance that grows between who you were and who you’re becoming.
And often, there’s no one around who truly understands what it’s costing you to awaken…

Thank you

paul wheaton wrote:That very weirdness is, i think, screwing up my greater mission…

paul wheaton wrote: And I think that is the core of this whole thread.  I would rather have my values and be alone, than be wise and in a relationship.   Therefore, I double down on the pursuit of my wack-a-doo-stuff and embrace a sort of flavor of being solo.

Many people might find your passion & different priorities/ ideology uncomfortable, but that doesn’t make you, or it, a problem or defecit.

Humanity needs people who can & will pursue ‘wack-a-doo-stuff’.