giant gardener guy, pretty old and wore out, with a 100% failure rate in relationships

...   seeking ...   probably nothing.  I am trying to find a path to being okay running solo.  While it would be great to find that magical relationship, my history says it is not gonna happen. And effort spent in seeking a connection will probably be frustrating for everybody involved.  For every connection that lasts more than a year, there are a half dozen attempts that end - usually with the downsides outweighing the upsides.

Here is a recent video of me (seems appropriate that if a person is gonna post to this forum to include a pic).





I have pretty much convinced myself to remain perpetually single.  I am writing this not to seek a partner, but to, instead, make whiney sounds about the women i see and how i prefer to remain single than start something.   And these same women are most likely thinking "oh good - that worked out perfectly for everybody!"

I suspect that 99% of people will find what I am about to write absolutely unacceptable.  To those I wish to point out that it seems that my values and standards are different from yours.  


Every few weeks I run errands in missoula.  I always stop off at the good food store.  For the last 5+ years I have been single, so there is this tiny inkling of a thought that I might meet a nice gal there.   Nope. And then I think "probably for the best."



I have zero tats or piercings.  I do not use artificial color in my hair nor do I use any make up.  I have never owned anything like that.  It seems like this stuff is what everybody is into now.  I am bonkers about permaculture - and a big part of that is how to romance nature so a symbiotic relationship can lead to a greater, healthier, more vibrant life.   Artificial hair color runs contrary to all that - and it is a class 1 carcinogen, right up there with smoking and asbestos.  I like the idea of finding a gal that will want to do all this stuff with me, but if she is loaded with toxins, it seems contrary to the path I seek.


When I was 11 I lived with my grandad on a cattle ranch.  We worked the ranch.  I have never owned a cowboy hat, cowboy boots or a cowboy belt buckle.  I remember the expression "all hat and no cows."  I saw a lot of people sporting the cowboy (or cowgirl) look, but they have never spent time on a ranch.  

I wonder if there is a similar thing for permies?  


I've never perused the postings of women here looking for a mate. But I have looked at a lot of threads here because this forum seems to need a lot of moderation.  When checking a woman's thread, it sounds like a lot of them are finding matches - which is great.  And ....  for most of them ....  I don't get it, but to each their own.   Most of the posts don't seem very permaculture to me.  


There was a gal here in the bootcamp last spring.  Mighty wholesome.  Young - 20-something is my guess.  On her last day she told stephen and i something about her life before arriving here.  something about makeup and false eyelashes.  I musta made some sort of face that was entertaining.  Everything we are doing here seems to be the complete opposite of false eyelashes.  And  the process of installing false eyelashes just seems ... uncomfortable.   If it takes five minutes to install false eyelashes, it just seems like the same five minutes would be better spent gardening or reading or visiting with somebody (about permaculture, of course!).  



A guy was in the bootcamp last spring and after a few weeks he said "check it out!"  He was proud of his new tat of a honey bee.  My reaction was not what he was looking for.  I said "you know that the ink is toxic, right?"  I guess I couldn't appreciate the art because all my brain cells were hyper focused on the toxicity.  


A coupla years ago a nice gal that seemed to be showing strong interest in me.  I wasn't interested.  She clearly liked weed and I don't.  There were other things, but the weed thing is enough for me to pump the brakes.


I used to drink alcohol once every few years.  A long time ago a friend went through some shit and needed a drinking buddy.  He rolled his eyes at my fruity drink.  He thought it was so silly he took a pic



And then while fighting cancer with "food as medicine" I learned that hooch is a class 1 carcinogen.  Well, it is mighty easy for me to ditch all hooch - I don't really like it anyway.



There are heaps of great peeps that love hooch, drugs, tats, piercings, tobacco, conventional foods, etc.  Many of them come here for events or the bootcamp or to rent a cabin for a bit ...   after years of moderating this forum and working with the rest of the staff to say "ya gotta let these people fly their own freak flag" I just felt the urge to fly my freak flag.  I know I am not just in the minority, but it is a freakishly tiny minority.  

I know that there will be a few hundred people angry at me for having values that are different from their own values.  I would like to ask those people to embrace their values and allow me to have my values.  

I cannot imagine attempting a date.  It seems like the odds are very high that i would be simply torturing an innocent woman with these values.   And this doesn't even touch my brutally arrogant philosophies.  



I share this here with the idea that there might be other single folks that have some similar values.  Are there people reading this with similar values?  What might I have left out?

I just noticed ...   i am, right now, wearing the exact same clothes.  Key brand overalls.  redd-ish tshirt.  Green overshirt.

Yes Paul, there are people out there with similar values, myself included .
Hold that juice up proudly!
Cheers ,
Rick

I just popped onto the front page and saw this post at the top, and curiosity distracted me sufficiently to click.

I suppose I only want to say you're not alone, and I'm sympathetic. Such is the lot of the black sheep, I suppose.

I've written and deleted a few things - it's difficult to say much relevant on a forum. Just a wave and a grin from a fellow black sheep.

paul wheaton wrote:...
I have pretty much convinced myself to remain perpetually single.  I am writing this not to seek a partner, but to, instead, make whiney sounds about the women i see and how i prefer to remain single than start something.   And these same women are most likely thinking "oh good - that worked out perfectly for everybody!"

I cannot imagine attempting a date.  It seems like the odds are very high that i would be simply torturing an innocent woman with these values.   And this doesn't even touch my brutally arrogant philosophies.  

I share this here with the idea that there might be other single folks that have some similar values.  Are there people reading this with similar values?  What might I have left out?

I relate. I like that you have not given up by putting this out there. I quit trying to find like minded folks long ago. That was probably a mistake.

Over time I've noticed that I never feel alone when in nature or with my dogs. I feel most alone when around other peeps. The more peeps around, the more alone it feels. This is the first and only time/place I've signed up for an internet thing. It still makes me a bit uncomfortable.

It would be nice to share things with other like minded folks but I have yet to meet any where I live.

You made this good thing with a bunch of good folks helping and you should be proud of it. I can't imagine you won't eventually find what you're looking for

Ah Paul. If I were single I'd be plucking up the courage to write a different sort of post right now and wondering if I had the energy to step into the role. But I'm not. And I don't.

All I can say is that we exist, but we tend to get into committed relationships and then stay in them.

No hair colour. No make up. Alcohol about twice a year, maybe...  No piercings. One tat, which I won in a raffle and commemorates my late husband. About once a month I leave the property and might be persuaded into a cafe or a store. Maybe. Usually not. I've just got back indoors from harvesting fartichokes for tomorrow's soup from the GAMCOD bed. I shall do what I can to support you from afar and wish you every success in finding a partner who understands you and can support you and your mission.

Here we are in the singles forum.  Maybe rather than trying to say

    hey ladies!  wuddya say?  Huh?  

there can be more of a chat along the lines of

    single. bonkers about permaculture.  thinking of just being single forevermore.




Thanks for sharing that my values may be weird, but not alone.

I have seen some women with makeup on their face.  My first thought is that i would really like to get a warm wash cloth ....      but I also think "does anybody wanna get kissy with all that toxic gick?"  The corollary being that maybe she is wearing all that toxic gick to keep people away?

paul wheaton wrote:
I have seen some women with makeup on their face.  My first thought is that i would really like to get a warm wash cloth ....      but I also think "does anybody wanna get kissy with all that toxic gick?"  The corollary being that maybe she is wearing all that toxic gick to keep people away?

Heh. I have always identified very strongly with a button/pin badge I once saw that said "I'm playing hard-to-want" - but I admit I have never been quite *that* committed (although obviously eschewing make-up is a strategy in avoiding a different demographic).

Outside of Rocket stove contribution, this may be one of my FAVORITE things Paul has produced. Comedic relief and wholesome content without the instagram viral algorithm nonsense is lacking in online permaculture space. Paul keep being Paul, wishing you the best in this journey!

stay pure good sir,

another semi lonely permie dude

Paul, I can deeply appreciate what you said.  I have been single for, well since 2017, almost 10 years.  I had a lot of things happen to me when I was younger and trusting (for me that is my 'issue') people is next to impossible when it comes to more intimate relationships - deeper friendships, romance, commitments.  

I have a tendency to think similarly:  why a tat? why color? why where makeup? why drink?  Knowing it leads to later issues (potentially).  I also have always been nature focused, so I was always asking "why would you do that to Mother Earth?" or something along those lines.  

I've have embraced being single, as I love the freedom it offers me.  Do I miss having relationships? Honestly, for me, I don't think I really know what that is, I've never experienced that.  My only true comfort & stable relationship has been with Mother Earth, she has always been my comforter, healer and friend. I know that may sound 'cheesy' or weird or whatever, but humans (generally) have been my source of not feeling safe.  But I never felt scared or unsafe in Her embrace.

I also have less drama (not to say I am not dramatic myself at times).  But I have too much I carry of my own, I just don't want to carry anymore weight.  We have different experiences, I'm sure, but I get what you're saying to some degree.  I am truly happy for every person/couple who are together, safe & happy for the most part.  I never had the safety to experience that, so I never learned what it means to be the person to have someone safe in my life.  I am okay with that.

At my age, I am more focused on learning, growing, creating the permaculture way than being in relationships that require something I don't have to give. I love being around like-minded people, gathering for small events, meals, etc. I'm not by any means closed off to meeting others & having wonderful conversations, but as for me, well I'm that friend that if you need me, I am there; otherwise you can find me outside, in a book or creating something at home.  

I often come off as brash, cool or aloof.  Maybe...  but I just get straight to the point, and oftentimes that point is short & sweet.  I don't dilly around with lots of words or explanations.  I love talking about things of interest & learning something new.  But I am definitely not one to start a conversation, and at times, in all my awkwardness, I end conversations sometimes abruptly, but not with intent to offend or insult.  

Being an introvert, my social energy levels drain almost immediately in the company of others.  Ironically when I am speaking to groups or teaching or engaging others in some 'professional' manner, I have more tolerance. But boy, when I am done, I am running for the cozy comfort of alone time.

You are not alone, you are not weird (in my eyes). You keep doing you.  Being honest, authentic and holding to values is a vital & sadly, missing set of traits in our society today.  All the best to you in your journey of singleness!!  --Tess

Hey Paul, the Queen of Clubs told me about this post.  It made me hurt for you and I wish that I could help, but with my record of failures you really don't want my help.
The only thing that I can offer that might bring Joy to your life is this: late Spring I can dig some Naked Ladies (Nerine bowdenii)  to send you!!!

Peace/Heddwch

Love this post bro. Right there with ya..

Flying solo and okay with it..

Thanks for the honesty and the chuckle.😀

Thank you.  My wife and I have been together over 50 years.  Your post helped us realize that we are together because no one else could stand to be around us.  By the way, although I am a bourbon snob, on occasion I will down a Pina Colada.

Hmm! Who will be the steady pendulum, the regulating Moon to Paul's raging, volcanic Earth?

I've learnt that it's possible for love to overwhelm the differences between people that get in the way. I believe that there is a perpetual need to make space for other people to do their own thing, and, if other people let you do your own thing, that is at least sustainable. Better however if you can agree on something that you love and wish to do together. Everyone is their own person, though.

I am a rather opinionated person as well. I had a friendship that was deteriorating for a while, and at a certain point we stopped talking for a month (maybe two?). I'm surprised it was not more than that. My friend was uncomfortable with a choice of mine regarding my health, and could not stand to be around me. We also had paths that were definitely diverging and didn't understand the choices the other was making. But, like a wound this disagreement began to heal, not because one person or the other bent and caved in to the other's will, but because we had each made room for each other in our hearts.

It was something that I had been hoping for for a while. I knew that the challenge was to find room in my heart for someone making decisions I couldn't understand and didn't agree with, but it took a while and more disharmony had to come in the way than I anticipated, and the heart changes slower than the mind wants it to. But, eventually it happened and I am glad for it. It was also a time when I was having to make lots of space for myself to heal physically and so I had to be compassionate to myself, too, where I hadn't been beforehand.

So, as long as you are able to hold compassionate space for the other and they hold the same kind of space for you, I think that is all that is necessary to love, in any sort of relationship, parent and child, siblings, lovers/spouses, friends, etc.

All that said oftentimes even with all of that, things can't work out, if despite everything the other person can't make space for you or the other way around. Sometimes, just making space for yourself is enough to turn an intolerable, overbearing relationship into one that's friendly enough, if strained. And learning to give a person space can be hard if the other person doesn't know how to hold it for themself. If you were to be around a chain smoker I'd guess you would like to be as far away as possible, so that wouldn't work out too well... you'd need to make space for yourself and if this person decided they liked you enough to want to be around you more than they wanted to smoke, they'd need to make a change and smoke less or quit. Otherwise it clearly wouldn't work.

I hope all this rambling is of some use to someone!

paul wheaton wrote:
I have seen some women with makeup on their face.  My first thought is that i would really like to get a warm wash cloth ....      but I also think "does anybody wanna get kissy with all that toxic gick?"  The corollary being that maybe she is wearing all that toxic gick to keep people away?

yes I wear makeup occasionally for an obligatory funeral or marriage appearance, specifically so that no one will try to kiss me, but I they do, and someone gets close to me with their artificial perfume, I can plant some lipstick on them, so yeah, nyeah!

I didn't know you have had a fight with cancer but I suspected so, and I am so so happy you have it beaten! I didn't know hooch was a class 1 carcinogen so since I don't drink, you just gave me some positive reinforcement I didn't expect! Bonus!

I think we all have our destinies so don't worry too much -- at some point the right soul mate will find your gate or roadside berm! In the meantime you will continue to add more friends to life's experiences! You are perfect for someone, and being an authentic person, you won't miss each other when the time is right!

This showed up on my youtube feed yesterday.

I think it's the first time I've listened to Alan Watts but it gave me plenty of food for thought, and a lot of it resonated with me.

Burra Maluca wrote:This showed up on my youtube feed yesterday.
,,, a lot of it resonated with me.

youtube [Alan Watts -- the enlightened no longer fall in love]

Me too -- it has been a few years now I have seen that disinterest is the opposite of love, but that many who hate, once thought they loved but in fact it was need (and perhaps fear as Alan Watts says) which I've seen putrify into resentment and eventually solidifies into hatred.

It is true, many of us become content with our lives and no longer "deceive ourselves" projecting our hopes into others thereby ,"falling" in love. I do think falling in lust is a thing though, and again, some people don't know the difference 😂

Sorry we're bombing your thread, Paul, but since there's some doubt emerging in the thread about love, I've got to defend it!
"Romantic love" is what we see in movies and read in books. A fantasy, a daydream, mirage. We can experience it, but it might fade.
True love is a phenomenon that suddenly just happens; there's chemistry, a magnetism that logic can't explain. A pull and a need to find out. If we're honest and brave enough to meet the challenge as our true selves, we might get lucky and find true, lasting companionship. Where both are free to be 100% themselves and to morph into their next-selves. Where there's genuine curiosity to how the other sees things, and willingness to share, even if it's scary. Openness and acceptance to the said morphing (growing). And silly times, etc etc., but true love, yes.
It's a strange thing, it seems to go away when we're looking for it, and then it ambushes us when we least expect it

Nina Surya wrote:True love is a phenomenon that suddenly just happens; there's chemistry, a magnetism that logic can't explain.

The thing is though that it doesn't HAVE to be like that. It can also build very slowly and gradually. Methodically almost.

I had to re-learn almost everything I thought I knew about love when I was first with my new partner, which came as quite a shock to me. And is why so much of that Alan Watts video resonated with me - as though someone had walked the same path and discovered the same things and managed to put them into words.

The last bit of the video is what spoke to me most - the bit about not falling in love, but rising in it.

They do not fall in love, they rise in it.
And this rising is silent, clear, vast as the night sky.

I never expected to fall in love again after losing my husband. And in a way I was right - no falling involved this time around. Just rising. Together. For as long as we are both on this earth.

Speaking to those last two posts, I've fallen in love three times. The first two women are now very fine friends. Only in the last case did things work out and we figured out how to build love. We work on it every day -- both patching the cracks and adding new dimensions. I agree that falling in love happens, and is amazing, but it's nothing compared to thirty years of building it.

Well, if I were younger, you would be appealing to me. I’m 66 been single all my life with relationships here and there. I live off-grid in a house less than 600 square, currently, with two cats, two dogs and a hen(she was freezing during our long cold snap so she’s living inside). I’m a homesteader trying to grow my own food, cutting my own firewood, composting like crazy, sawdust toilet, etc. It is hard to find like-minded people. They are out there, though. Maybe just friendship is what you need. Yeah, people think I’m a little crazy, I’m sure.

I feel like high quality community living solves 90% of stuff.  Emphasis on "high quality" which translates to "low drama".  

  - sharing meals
  - sharing movies
  - sharing gardens
  - sharing struggles

I think the threads here on permies helps too.  



One I left out of the good food store thing:  bling.  Am I the only one that sees lot of rings and other bling and thinks "not a match"?



In a weird way, it is a relief.  I go to the good food store, i get some salad, and sit at their tables and eat.  Then buy a few groceries to take home.  I see 50 women and then "I think it is best that i am solo."

Bling, artificial hair color, makeup, tats ...  causes instant disinterest.  Generally in less than a second.  Easy.  And this isn't even touching on stuff like smoking, drugs, hooch, etc.



Maybe a healthier conversation would be about visible green flags.   And for the sake of this forum (the singles forum on permies) I would think a picture of gardens, and prize harvests, and natural building stuff would be great.

Possible green flags that seem like they'd give singles a leg up finding a match at Permies:

A thread they started in Gardening for Beginners, Polyculture, Forest Gardening, Seeds and Breeding or something similar with good discussion and pictures of their garden.

A thread they started in Homesteading or Projects (or similar) discussing an improvement they've made to their homestead or situation with follow-on discussion.

Some good SKIP badges: https://permies.com/wiki/skip-pep-bb

A history, even if you're newish, of contributing to other threads. This includes helpful suggestions, insightful questions, and companionable chatting.

Having earned some apples.

If I was new to this site and looking for love, I'd do some or all of the above before posting in Singles.

paul wheaton wrote:

I just noticed ...   i am, right now, wearing the exact same clothes.  Key brand overalls.  redd-ish tshirt.  Green overshirt.

Hi Paul I feel more or less the same as you, I have been on a personal journey, which seems to have given a way of looking at the world, that most people just do not get, I have leant to except who I am, love my faults as well as wide and various skills, the one thing I have never had an interest in is loads of money and the ego and falseness that goes with it, speak your truth, be honest and respectful with yourself as well as others and of course Mother Nature in all its wonder.

Well... it was a little hard to read this, and I'm working through why. it's hard to see someone talk about your entire category of person (women, here) as things that you appraise for suitability, and not as people with full lives and complex histories. And maybe you're consistent and you think about all people that way. I realized as I read that I seem to meet all the criteria you described, but I would be put off by just imagining I was being looked at and talked about this way. Or always wondering which hidden thing about me might be found unsuitable out of hand tomorrow. This is not to try to make you feel bad, but just me being uncomfortably blunt: someone who shares all your traits is also likely to have a strong aversion to open scrutiny, and might assume rejection before you even interact based on how you talk about others. I know because I've been in this same position and had someone uncomfortably point out that I was not being a good hang.

I say this because the reason I don't have tattoos, dye my hair, wear makeup, or smoke anything has a lot to do with sensory and anxiety stuff from being pretty darn neurodivergent. Which is the same reason I intensely resent being Perceived due to a history of rejection by my peers. It's also the same reason I:
- see other people as kind of a mysterious thing that exists outside of and separate from me
- have special interests that kind of consume me and make it hard to talk to people (no one will guess what my special interest is)
- need things to be a certain way (that's the way that makes the most Sense) and have trouble being flexible
- overthink and feel like I need to game things and people out before I can engage with them at all

Which I feel like I might be hearing in the things you're saying.

I like plants more than people to the point that I read permies but don't engage in the forums etc. at all, so I don't know much about your situation or anybody's, but the main gift that I got from figuring out I was always kinda autistic was knowing that the way my brain works is precedented, and that it just kind of needs the things it needs and that it's not actually a failing of other people if they can't meet that. That there are people out there with similar brain meat that just get it. As a result I feel like I DO have a community for the first time, because once I knew what I was, I started actively looking for muppets like me. It's not what a younger me who was swayed by the marketing of mainstream society might have imagined for myself, since we're all neurodivergent and mostly disabled, but I find myself totally baffled by the inscrutability of human beings a lot less, and people used to living on the margins have a much better imagination for what human relationships and communicating about needs can look like. I hope you find your weirdos and that it's freeing, if not what you were picturing.

I am confused about that 100% failure rate in relationships.

If I have 10 relationships and they all end in failure, is that a 100% failure rate?

If I have 1 relationship and it ends in failure, is that a 100% failure rate?

If I stay in a miserable relationship, is that a 100% failure rate?

If I refuse to get into a relationship because I am afraid of the outcome, is that a 100% failure rate?

You’re not queer or alone. Some people have to travel quite a long way to get onto the right path. That is ‘ TO LIVE NATURAL AND MAKE NATURE, THE REAL THINGS THAT GOD HAS GIVEN US, PART OF OUR EVERYDAY LIFESTYLE.’
I couldn’t help but give a small giggle reading. We have been given so much for free from The Creator, why would we want to trade and spend money? No doubt a doctor is needed at times,but I’ve been in this country going on for nearly 10yrs and never been to a doctor. Everything is done with herbs. I learned to make and do myself always having plan B’ ready. But actually, they were intended to be plan A’ without realizing it. It took me a long time to realize that I want to be me, without being artificial, without trying to blend in with a back to front society that has become gullible! Men shaving their hair, coloring, women trying to outdo themselves with soooo much makeup. Sure, makes women look pretty when they appear on media, but take that makeup and hair color off and see what you’re faced with!? Basically everything has become artificial! Women and men grow older, women think more makeup does the thing. Men think if they shave their hair off or color, well, that does the thing. We need to take the masks off and realize that sooner or later the real me surfaces. We need to get back to reality and become whom we were meant to be………

Nina Surya wrote:Sorry we're bombing your thread, Paul, )

Yes sorry Paul! My social skills are abysmal and I think I just did what is called cross talk, which is a thing, which I am learning about, very late in life ! Or something along the line.

Edit: and reflecting on this thread, I realize I didn't start the cross talking, but was eager to get diverted and that's me alright! Scatter brained lol

Nina Surya wrote:...but true love, yes.
It's a strange thing, it seems to go away when we're looking for it, and then it ambushes us when we least expect it

Thank you restoring my faith! I have had long term friends that qualify, and I'm okay if that's as good as or gets,but I do have faith that there are people that fortunate to have experienced this.l long term. We are a complex species.

Yes plants and animals have always been easier for me to relate to as many here feel

John F Dean wrote:I am confused about that 100% failure rate in relationships.

If I have 10 relationships and they all end in failure, is that a 100% failure rate?

If I have 1 relationship and it ends in failure, is that a 100% failure rate?

If I stay in a miserable relationship, is that a 100% failure rate?

If I refuse to get into a relationship because I am afraid of the outcome, is that a 100% failure rate?

Lol

Yes I think they all qualify as 100% failure -- which I thought was meant to be a bit of a joke in its exaggeration

I once told my son that friends are more important because your romantic relationship will always fail with the exception of the last one if you are lucky enough to have a successful "marriage" which needn't be a story book definition, or perhaps subsequent ones if you aren't lucky enough to die first 🤣

He replied that this is a pretty pessimistic view

But I said
Ah but the joy is in the voyage -- the lived experience, and the beauty in love is in its vulnerability -- as with a beautiful and delicate flower or spider web