CENSORSHIP - Paul Wheaton requested

It seems an administrator (Burra Maluca) has decided to go rogue and start censoring people with no notice, warning, or reason given until after thrashing and censoring a whole thread, and is continuing to do so - show some character and consideration!

It is because I asked Burra to do just that.

the "compost heap" is a hidden forum where thread can be reviewed by me and possibly put back. 

I advise Burra and the other admins to never talk about their actions and to leave that me.  Mostly because I am grateful to the admins for their help in running this site, and people tend to want to talk about thinks like morals, ethics, lack of breeding, poor hygiene, poor education, lack of cognitive ability, lack of memory, etc.  I prefer to take full responsibility for those actions.  So the admins never delete.  Only I delete.  So now the conversation can focus on my morals, ethics, lack of breeding, poor hygiene, poor education, lack of cognitive ability, lack of memory, etc.  Rather than theirs.

Ok - I'm not sure why your morals, ethics, lack of breeding, poor hygiene, poor education, lack of cognitive ability, lack of memory, etc. should be an issue, but whatever.

I would hope that you can also understand that regardless of who does what what for why, that if there is a problem, the considerate thing may not be to completely thrash a whole thread with no notice whatsoever, when someone may be putting a lot of work into giving the info that reasonable members have asked for, and then lose it all because the posting fails.

"Being nice" is a two-way street.  I won't go crying to mommy just because I don't like what someone said or how they said it - I deal with it. I defend my point.  I see nothing unreasonable about that.

I have been managing online forums for over 20 years.  And, on top of that, I have a lot of other things I do throughout the day. 

Frankly, I prefer to delete posts silently.  Sometimes I will comment on a thread and say "I've deleted stuff here. I would like to remind folks ..."

I encourage you to set up forums and manage them the way that you think is best.  In the meantime, I've gotten kinda set in my ways and appear to have certain crowd that is comfortable with this.  There are lots of other forums that are managed in a lot of other ways. 

From my perspective, this way is the best way to manage forums.  I think we have the richest and most respectful discussions.  Oh sure, there are lots of alternative theories in how to manage forums, but most of those theories are put forth by people that have no experience in actually managing forums.  And this might be a good time to point out that 99% of all installed forums fail.

- 99% of all forums fail? - Really? That may be the fact, but it seems to never be the case as I have seen, as forums that became a private clique' where anyone new is walked all over seem to persist. - or maybe they just stagnate due to people not staying with them because they don't like being walked all over.

I'm not trying to tell you how to run your forum, I am only appealing to what is reasonable and considerate. I would hope that what is considerate also has real value in any forum.

   I am new here, having only learned what a forum is three months ago . I don't feel that newcomers are treated any differently than long-term members. I've received personal messages from some people welcoming me to the forum and inviting me to join others. Before July of this year, my only experience with forums was when I would sit beside dirty old men at the library as they traded insults back and forth on completely unregulated forums which eventually become strictly a platform for gutter humor.

  Having moderators seems to prevent that sort of thing. And along with that we get some censorship. I've had my funny quips about serial killers removed and I've learned that it's not okay to suggest that someone will probably never get laid ever again due to what I perceive as an intellectual deficiency. This is not one of my job sites and I'm not entertaining a crew of guys that I picked up at the Salvation Army.    This is Paul's house. Paul gets to make the rules.

  Most of my experience here has been highly positive as I've read up on hundreds of things I'm interested in and I've posted many new threads concerning my inventions and property development plans. I've had a few run-ins with folks who seemed bent on pressing some ideology and foolishly, I engaged them. I don't think that was the highest and best use of my time, although it was fun.

    We all enjoy being right, and it's nice when others agree. But being so invested in being right that we close our minds to opposing points of view accomplishes nothing. Although I believe my every utterance to be profound and of great value to humanity, there will be people who see my name on a new post and say to themselves." Oh no, not that wind bag again. How does he find the time?"

    One thing I've almost never done is bite my tongue when I see something really silly. Being on this forum has taught me to curtail my number one instinct which is to openly mock anything I judge to be stupid.  I've said, things that would make Simon Cowell blush while Mike Holmes nods in agreement. I can still enjoy this, but not here.

    I know my politically incorrect humor is not appropriate here, so I save it for the public swimming pool, sauna. One guy I know even approaches me on the street to find out what awful joke I've either created or heard. And that is the appropriate forum for that particular part of my creative streak.

  I searched the Internet for a week or so before deciding that this forum fit my interests and personal beliefs. If I figured they were ALL a bunch of flakes I would have moved on.
 
  I leave you now with a gem, which I just thought of, although I'm sure it exists in some form somewhere.  Drumroll please...      "When we agree to disagree, I secretly agree that you're all a bunch of idiots".      And that's the trick.        Some things are better left unsaid.    Moderators aren't yet empowered to punish thought crimes, so you don't get slapped unless you feel compelled to record everything that runs through your head. 

                    Thank you: Dale Hodgins     
   

I would agree with much of what dale hodgins has written, with one possible caveat...

One can tell it like it is, and get silenced or whipped for it, as most Human Beings have never learned to respect reality when it is not warm, candy-coated, and bending to their personal preference;
Nor can 99% of even the most allegedly mature and wise adults stand to be corrected.

One can bite their tongue, and silence themselves, reserving their opinion in order to be diplomatic, but are still bowing to the sensitivities of people who seem to relish being offended, in their assumed moral superiority.

I for one, (Perhaps similar to Dale Hodgins in this respect?) have learned and become saturated with the conviction that I am one of the last sane people on Earth, surrounded by the subjects of an ever-thinning gene pool, raised in a TV society of funny insanity, colorful stupidity, and a hundred levels of bull and corruption; So I often find myself speechless in my pity of them all most every time they open their mouths...

Well, I have my own goals, and these forums are a tool for me to help achieve those goals.  I wish to build a community of people that are willing to communicate with each other on topics I like in a way that I like. 

As we have evolved, my stuff about what "be nice" means seems to have evolved to a few key points:

1)  state your position, not "the truth."

2)  never suggest that anybody on permies.com is anything less than perfect.

3)  generally avoid religion, politics and the permaculture third ethic.  Sometimes I let this stuff slide as long as it is super carefully worded.

Of course, these are more like rough guidelines of what is in my head, and the real test is whether I like what is posted.  Most of the crowd that is here now seems to function in my happy space - so all is well. 

I really don't see where there should be any offense.
- and I really don't appreciate people alleging and complaining about people being offended and using that excuse to embody what they are complaining about either.

Crete It's not just about if the folks in the debate are offended its also about what the thousands of visiters a day who Google thirty way here see.

Paul prefers that audience to see a whole lot of info and diverse opinions, and just as importantly to not see anyone being rude to those who disagree with them because such behavior weakens the credibility of permaculture in the eyes of the public.

Do I always agree. With the moderators and Paul? Not at all, but the huge audience and massive amount of good information here are good evidence they are doing it right.

More to the point it works for the folks here and if it doesn't work for you then you don't have to force Paul to ban you. You can always leave on your own. There are other forums more open to folks with confrontational styles.

There are some people who post here with whom I could hardly disagree more on politics and various bits of philosophy , but that's ok because we don't discuss politics and philosophy much here on the boards (thanks to Paul!).  I find almost no matter how much people disagree on some things, they can find other things they agree on just fine.  For those of us here, permaculture is a huge subject we can agree on. 

Preserving the integrity of a forum is one of the paramount aspects of operating a forum.  Permaculture encompasses a wide scope of discussion.  With such a broad canvass, it is all too easy to derail topics, get into fringe territory, and for disagreements to get out of hand.  We have a fantastic amount of freedom in what we can talk about, we disagree sometimes, but keeping things respectful is critical to continuing the free flow of ideas. 

One aspect of permaculture is that the rules don't always apply.  'John' has a method which has been proven successfull for years, but no matter what, that method will never work for 'Jane'.  Rather than hotly debate the method, a better solution would be to gather more information to figure out why the method won't work.  Exploring cause and effect is a strong element in the discussions here because there is not a great deal of scientific data, and even if there were, any postulations drawn from that data may be entirely useless to someone else, in a different place or a different time.

People around here are looking for useful information.  Flaring tempers are not of interest.  Insults do not advance the cause.  If left in place, the overall integrity of the site in damaged.  What an awful thing it would be to drive off someone who may have a piece of the puzzle we are trying to put together.  The ideas people post have a great deal of value, perhaps not to everyone, but quite possibly to someone. 

Nature has a balance of chaos and harmony.  Many here are attempting to emulate that balance.  There is a bountiful crop of ideas here, but it sometimes means pulling a few weeds.  This is made difficult at times because what one calls a weed, another calls an heirloom. 

first note:  please don't post stuff knowing that i'm gonna delete it.  It just makes more work for me.

a tip:  when looking for a thread gone bad, I usually search for the word "you".  That's where folks start talking about the people on permies instead of the topic at hand.

Dale:  please try to keep the "quote" and your response in the same post.  Not something I'm gonna delete, but what you are doing is so contrary to the norm that I've even had people complaining to me about it.  And, yes, I am getting your emails, but have not had time to reply to them.

What an awful thing it would be to drive off someone who may have a piece of the puzzle we are trying to put together.

Wow, that is damn good stuff.

paul wheaton wrote:
first note:  please don't post stuff knowing that i'm gonna delete it.  It just makes more work for me.

sorry I woke up on the wrong side of the bed this morning my tact was at a low low point I most likely should have napped a bit instead of getting online

paul wheaton wrote:


Dale:  please try to keep the "quote" and your response in the same post.   Not something I'm gonna delete, but what you are doing is so contrary to the norm that I've even had people complaining to me about it. 

  I only learned of this problem  yesterday when an administrator sent me a message. I didn't realize that you could type under someone's quote. I figured that would be like putting words in their mouth and confusing the issue.

      I think it might be a good idea if there was some sort of "how this site works" or "forum etiquite" box which could be clicked by newcomers when joining. If this exists, I can't find it. I suppose there's an assumption that we are all computer literate and maybe have been on forums before but both are new to me.

    I'm going to take some time to search around your other sites, watch more of the videos and listen to some of the podcasts. I've been on quite a roll producing material so it's probably a good idea to search around well and make sure that what I'm doing is not redundant. I tend to think of every idea I have as new only to find later that it's being done. I invented mocha once.

  So I've been putting everything in my brain relating to building and agriculture on the forum without considering that I may be producing more material than you want to see from one individual. If I am being too prolific please let me know and I'll give it a rest. I've been making major changes, with a plan to be involved in green building professionally and have been presenting quite lengthy articles for discussion.

    Three questions not just for Paul and the administrators but for anyone.

    1. Is it acceptable or even common practice for someone to plan out their entire farm, building plans and permaculture business on a public forum.

    2. Is the volume of material I'm producing problematic?

    3. Is it acceptable to use the forum to solicit business provided that business is of a green building, recycling and organic gardening nature?  I wouldn't be trying to sell cabbages, but  would be seeking employees, tenants and farmers who may want to allow me to bring my tour bus to their location.

                Thank you: Dale Hodgins

creteman wrote:
I would agree with much of what dale hodgins has written, with one possible caveat

I for one, (Perhaps similar to Dale Hodgins in this respect?) have learned and become saturated with the conviction that I am one of the last sane people on Earth, surrounded by the subjects of an ever-thinning gene pool, raised in a TV society of funny insanity, colorful stupidity, and a hundred levels of bull and corruption; So I often find myself speechless in my pity of them all most every time they open their mouths...

                                                                                                                                                                    No,not at all like Dale Hodgins.   I doubt that there's much we agree upon. Please don't include my name in any further postings unless it's to do with building or agriculture. I fully accept the way the forum is operated and don't pretend to have any insights in this matter. Any comparisons you've made between us is highly speculative since we've only met on the site and I've never written anything like that here.

   I said something similar to this yesterday which was deleted so I hope it's acceptable to repost. I don't want to to see my name used to support ideas which I don't  agree with.

Is it acceptable or even common practice for someone to plan out their entire farm, building plans and permaculture business on a public forum.

I think it is done here a fair bit. 

Is the volume of material I'm producing problematic?

Volume is not a problem.  As long as every spec of every post is within my comfort zone.

Is it acceptable to use the forum to solicit business provided that business is of a green building, recycling and organic gardening nature?  I wouldn't be trying to sell cabbages, but  would be seeking employees, tenants and farmers who may want to allow me to bring my tour bus to their location.

https://permies.com/permaculture-forums/1892_0

Hope this isn't too far OT, but reading this, it came to me that perhaps Paul's intolerance for personal judgment/attack might have a subtle effect on many of us posters...focusing our attention on our common ground, and preemptively turning us away, perhaps, from our differences. Promoting more 'get along' , and can't have too much of that, in my opinion.  Kind of permie?

No doubt it does Nancy.

Also I  can say on my own personal experience that as much as I love a good debate this forum is much more useful without the drama. There are other spots on the web to get my fix proving someone is an idiot but no other place for what I get here.

Brice Moss wrote:
There are other spots on the web to get my fix proving someone is an idiot but no other place for what I get here.

I think that is one of the coolest things I've ever heard somebody say about these forums.

Feel free to quote that

Giving this thread another look and have a couple of final bits to add:

... if there is a problem, the considerate thing  ...

I am not concerned with whether I am thought of as considerate or not.  I am only concerned with what seems good and right and decent to me. 

"Being nice" is a two-way street.

Nope. 

Here is an interesting thing.  When i created my account on these forums, I didn't agree to anything.  I then set it up so that everybody else who signed up agreed to "be nice."

Therefore, I don't have to be nice. 

I have to admit, that it is totally awesome being me.

I won't go crying to mommy just because I don't like what someone said ...

I suppose that in this case I am "mommy"? 

I'm not trying to tell you how to run your forum

(gurk!)

I am only appealing to what is reasonable and considerate.

At this point in time, I suspect that I fall short of your standards of "reasonable and considerate."  I suspect that I fall short of most people's ideas of "reasonable and considerate." And I am perfectly okay with that.

Now I've gotten bored with this thread. 

Here's the bottom line:  I'll publish stuff I like.  I think most people will not like my approach, so they will submit their comments elsewhere.  That sounds perfect.

Somebody recently cried "Censorship!" on these forums, so i thought I would bump this thread.

These forums are censored. Heavily. Based on my standards - and not the standards of anybody else.

There are posts that are heavy with excellent content, but have one spec that falls outside of my comfort zone. Those posts are removed. Fortunately, the staff at CodeRanch have added a new feature that makes it easier to take that post temporarily offline and give the author a chance to mend that post. We are starting to use this feature more so that good content can stay - without the tiny spec that is not allowed.

Mostly, I think if somebody has a problem with censorship here, it should be taken up in this forum (tinkering) and not in the other forums.

I respect that if a thread crosses the line, then it is over the line, done deal.

In the recent case with the thread on farm internships, I think that Walter offered a great amount of excellent quality information in his post. I would suggest that torching the entire post did a disservice to his expertise and the learning of members on this forum. I totally understand Walter's frustration when asked to edit his post, and so he just left it with a one sentence synopsis that included none of his actual experience with the subject. That is a shame.

If there is any way to resurrect his post, minus the little bit that may have crossed the line, I think that would be a positive thing. There are not many people here who have actual working experience with interns and internships from the standpoint of the farmer. Those persepectives are very valuable to those of us who aspire to add an educational component to our working farms.

Of course, do as you will, the overall average around here is excellent so your system works great. This is just a case where I am truly grateful that I got to learn from a post that was then deleted.

Walter's contributions here have been excellent. Walter's contributions to the world have been excellent. And, once in a while, somebody smacks his buttons and .... well, as expected, some really excellent content comes of it mixed in with some stuff that slips outside of our publishing standards. I'm glad that the new software gives walter a way to do a little tidy-ing up so we can keep all the good stuff.

Believe it or not, even I, with my quite tame opinions on most subjects, have strayed into questionable territory a few times. But I've learned from my mistakes. Just because something is truly a laughing matter, does not mean that everyone will welcome that news. So, I usually bite my tongue and reserve comment in order to maintain harmony.

This is an interesting topic to look at from the perspective of competition vs. collaboration. As mentioned above, there are forums all over with rampant argumentation. If permaculture 2.0, permanent culture seeks to design a new system, a new common, resiliant, sustainable (or even regenerative), culture, then it won't be build by more aguing, ad hominems and bullying. We've tried that system, doesn't work.

I've read a lot of permies forums but never really started posting until recently, and my feeling from what I've read is that we're here to collaborate; we're a community working toward a common durable goal. Permaculture (Billy Mo's version) is a design science, and is based on materialist considerations. I can see why politics, religion, aspects of economics, etc. would be tricky. Paul, from what I've seen, is deeply invested in not only bringing people together, but lots of useful information. Those three topics tend to polarize.

We've got enough competition in modern culture. I think this whole forum is a fascinating social experiment in bounded collaboration. "Censorship" isn't the right word, though. "Pruning" might be more fitting--he's getting more quality fruit that way, and diseased dead-end conversations are snipped (and hugelkultivated).

https://xkcd.com/1357/

The even more amusing thing about the comic strip Paul just shared is that many folks to whom it applies will think it is referring to someone else they are thinking of. We are funny that way.

This forum has been here long enough to show it has resilience. Resilience requires a great diversity of backgrounds, opinions, information, and enthusiasm. If we look at it on the surface, censorship would be reducing that diversity. But it isn't! Let me tell you why with an analogy:

Permaculture is about looking beyond the surface and focusing on the interactions between organisms. Lately I've been thinking about people the same way I think about plants. For a resilient food forest or guild, we need lots of variety. Lots of different plants working together.

Maybe a forum is like that? Maybe this forum is like a permaculture farm? I see food forests and different house constructions, tillage crops, no tillage crops, and there waddles along a flock of slug munching ducks. All these different ecosystems, living in harmony together filled with a great many life forms.

Once the permaculture farm is set up, it has to be maintained. If the plants were left to themselves, the food forest would be nothing but ivy or kudzu after a few years. The ducks would consume all but the slyest of slugs, then starve to death, then there would be no slug control at all.

I see censorship like stewardship, it helps maintain diversity. This forum is Paul's so it's managed according to his design. He seems to know a thing about permaculture and maintaining this kind of system. Maybe sometimes he needs to let the goats at the kudzu and ivy (yes, I'm calling volunteers goats - this might not be my best analogy, but useful and stubborn fits me well). Sometimes he needs to nurture tender new seedlings so that they can grow and become prolific. Sometimes this can seem unfair, especially if you are kudzu.

A do nothing forum is like a do nothing farm - there is no resilience to it. Even fukuoka had to do some maintenance on his farm, if only to bring it back to the natural balance.

Sometimes this can seem unfair, especially if you are kudzu.

Perfect. Choked on my drink.

To take the analogy farther... a food forest in which the ivy and kudzu have been exterminated, compared to one in which they are only managed when/where they present a major problem, will require much less maintenance over time, or be much more resilient in the absence of maintenance for an extended period.

The removal of a portion of the diversity, in fact allows a far wider variety of diversity.

I like the idea that Paul is the guy who makes the decisions, and he doesn't put that on mods. That is stand up behavior where time allows.

If you do spend 4 hours crafting a post full of gems of deep thoughts, and to be fair sometimes if all of the meaning could somehow be communicated, there can be some really deep stuff (I am thinking DIY type info, not metaphysics, though that could be also)... Anyway, back to the point. Save it in a text file, so if that stuff gets nuked you can come back to it. Or better yet write an article for publication if a venue exists. Some of my best posts (new here) I have been on the verge of hitting "Submit" and then realized there was an article there and filed it instead.

Oh, one last guideline I try to live up to is that when I write something that something is guided by the needs of any readers, as well as I can figure out what those might be. There are lots of things I would like to say, but no mater how well presented, they may be about what I want to say, and not what will help a reader. This applies to fiction or non-fiction. Of course some people can get away with self-indulgent material, but I can't.