Permaculture Parenting?

Is there any interest in a forum dedicated to raising children in line with permaculture principles, probably under the Community area of the forum? I've seen a few posts on related subjects (family planning, ancestral parenting) and would like to see more.

I'm currently in a pilot course on permaculture-aligned parenting, and am finding it very, very valuable. Is anyone else working on similar efforts?

I love this idea - I'm a parent myself, and find that my role as a mother and as a steward are very intertwined. I think there's a huge demand for this kind of thing.

I'm actually exploring blogs in the natural parenting niche right now as part of our networking effort - I think we can build a strong following by catering more to that audience. I'm sure a lot of us permies are parents

I think a great question at this point would be whether this form should be in the cider press.

The has to be an infinite number of ways to raise children and each could be labeled as THE permaculture way.

Some could argue that they need to be turned loose in the wild, and raised as a kind of wildling. Others might suggest 80 hours a week of nurturing while yet another faction would refer to this as spoiling.

There could be massive debates about coming of age ceremonies.

I can think of my own philosophies, and how passionate I was about parenting techniques before my first child was born and how different that was from three years later... And how different both of those were now that I have 20/20 hindsight. And most importantly, how my current philosophies are so extremely distasteful to people that are about to have children.

So, I think this would be a cider press topic. But I suspect that I might be the only person that has this opinion.

Anybody else?

It has serious potential to turn sour, so yeah the cider press may be warranted.

I know my views on the subject would offend the easily offended.

I feel like my philosophies on parenting would be good fodder to put into one of those podcasts where I required $25 to download it. Exactly like my political podcast and my relationships podcast. Just because if somebody is going to hate me I want to get $25 from them first.

I agree, that there are all kinds of ways to raise kids...isn't that the case with most any subject in permaculture though?
'It depends' on so many factors...I think most of us just want to do our best for our children and want the best for everyone else's too.....and many of us in hind site see what could have been better choices and sharing that could be helpful too.
I don't think the forum would have to be in the cider press..
On the other hand, I've been thoroughly amazed at what subjects folks find to argue loudly about so I see how it could end up there

It definitely has the potential to go sour, but honestly, when I think of that forum, I think of it more along the lines of making it work with a homestead and young children - time management, teaching permaculture as a part of homeschooling, tiny tool recommendations for little ones that want to help - parenting philosophy will inevitably get dragged into it, but this is a really big subject, and a huge part of everyone's lives.

I think relegating it to the Cider Press sets it up to be a shit show, whereas just creating the forum opens up a place where simple, civil discussion can take place.

The issue of spanking is sure to come up. We can even label it as beating. If one parent thinks that this path is the optimal path for them, I could see 500 parents... No wait, I have to rephrase this... I could see 500 people go batshit crazy saying that such a parent is a monster and no one should ever ever ever ever ever spank a child.

It is that batshit crazy stuff that would make it so that this form might need to be in the cider press.

And this is just one subject out of hundreds that could go down the same path.

We tried to have some of the cider press stuff in the past and it just turned into a lot of work for the staff. We ended up deleting threads and deleting entire forums. As is the cider press is working out pretty good - although there have been a couple of issues, just not nearly as bad as what we saw in the past. So cider press is working out quite well.

It is possible to start this forum outside of the cider press. And then we just to, at a later date, and only if it gets to be terrible, delete the whole forum and start over in the cider press.

I am going to leave the cider press decision to burra. After all, if this turns into a lot of work, it will be most likely be her that is doing the work.

I look forward to the threads about corporal punishment, forced adoption of the parents religion, cooperation through deprivation, how to get your kids to accept your political views, forcing kids to be vegan, forcing them to eat meat, why public schooled kids are better, why home schooled kids are better, adoption of children of another race and how to retain some connection to the society that threw them out or sold them ... CIDER PRESS.

Do we already have a forum that's about bringing permaculture to kids?

Maybe we need two forums. 1 forum would be about how to teach kids permaculture. That to be a public forum . The other forum would be about parenting. That would be in the cider press.

Creative spelling and punctuation brought to you by my voice recognition software.

I think the original request was "a forum dedicated to raising children in line with permaculture principles", not for every possible view under the sun....I can see where there might not be an agreement on 'permaculture principles' from the beginning though.


edited to add quote I was responding to.....

I look forward to the threads about corporal punishment, forced adoption of the parents religion, cooperation through deprivation, how to get your kids to accept your political views, forcing kids to be vegan, forcing them to eat meat, why public schooled kids are better, why home schooled kids are better ... CIDER PRESS.

Judith Browning wrote:I think the original request was "a forum dedicated to raising children in line with permaculture principles", not for every possible view under the sun....I can see where there might not be an agreement on 'permaculture principles' from the beginning though.

My original concept was something along the lines of "how can the concepts behind permaculture help us raise children," not how to teach permaculture to kids, which is a very different (and probably narrower) topic. In particular I was thinking about the more philosophical ideas - "slow and small solutions", zones and sectors, outputs from one area being inputs to another, etc.

I can see how the topic could get quite contentious, and I appreciate Paul considering the idea at all since he and his folks are the ones who would have to maintain the forum.

I can see a lot of debate about permaculture principles or ethics as it applies to parenting. I can see people standing up to say that their way is the way and there is no other way. And, of course, insisting on other people raising children the one true permaculture way.

I could be wrong. Maybe everything will be just lovely. But I think it will end up being what Dale suggests, only everybody's opinion will be labeled as the only permaculture way.

Again: we really need burra to weigh in on this.

OK, OK, both my ears are burning.

I'll be honest, it is gonna be me sorting out the mess and trying to calm down raging wars behind the scenes. I can feel the fury of the inevitable discussion on vaccinations right now.

I'm going with the cider press...

Steven,

I think your suggestion is lovely and Noble.

I feel like I am bringing a slimy gob of ick to the table. I'm afraid I've been poisoned in the past.

I like to think that your lovely thoughts are partially born from the hard work of the staff in the past to carve out yucky stuff so that what you see of these forums seems to be all lovely.

Burra Maluca wrote:OK, OK, both my ears are burning.

I'll be honest, it is gonna be me sorting out the mess and trying to calm down raging wars behind the scenes. I can feel the fury of the inevitable discussion on vaccinations right now.

I'm going with the cider press...

I suspected that that would be the answer.

What do you think of my suggestion of to new forums: one for teaching permaculture the kids and one for permaculture parenting?

paul wheaton wrote:Steven,

I think your suggestion is lovely and Noble.

I feel like I am bringing a slimy gob of ick to the table. I'm afraid I've been poisoned in the past.

I like to think that your lovely thoughts are partially born from the hard work of the staff in the past to carve out yucky stuff so that what you see of these forums seems to be all lovely.

Thank you, and thanks to you and the staff for keeping permies useful and friendly (unlike so many un- and under-moderated sites out there).

paul wheaton wrote:What do you think of my suggestion of to new forums: one for teaching permaculture the kids and one for permaculture parenting?

Well we have a homeschooling forum, and a teacher's lounge forum, but you're right, not really anything for teaching permaculture to kids. OK. I'll have a go at creating them very soon. Is 'teaching permaculture for kids' the right title? And I guess it belongs in the education section, whereas permaculture parenting would belong in the 'living' section?

I think we could have a forum in the education category that is simply called:

Kids

And then we could have a forum in the cider press called:

Parenting

I think that the names of the categories and the name of the forums need to be kept short. At the same time, the whole site is dedicated to permaculture, so putting permaculture in the name of a forum seems a bit redundant. Just as putting something about education in a forum name where the forum is in the education section seems redundant.

I thought you said that the parenting forum should go in the cider press. Did you change your mind?

Haha I totally get the fear! Parenting wars are the worst, I despise how it brings out this ironic nastiness in people, when we're all fiercely debating the best way to raise loving, responsible kids

I suppose I'm rooting for a mommy forum that gets me - I'm in a lot of natural parenting groups, but for the most part, none of them really take it to the level that I feel a lot of users would here, knowing what it's like to babywear while piling up a hugelbed, stacking firewood while you sing Old MacDonald, moving your gigantic hoop coop tractor frantically while baby sleeps in the pack n play in the yard...

Ahhh. Either way, I'll be excited to see how this idea goes, I'm rooting for it to be as amicable and stress free as possible.

paul wheaton wrote:I thought you said that the parenting forum should go in the cider press. Did you change your mind?

Nope, my brain just fell out. I've scraped it off the floor and put it back in. Not sure how long it will stay there. Some days are like this...

I recently heard something where 50 to 100 years ago the most commonly embraced style of parenting was to do very little. And it was through advertising that children were put up on a massive pedestal.

On homesteads, children started to work at the age of 4. By the age of 6, they work really hard and they work really long days. Homesteaders could create a significant workforce through breeding. I think I heard something a couple of years ago about how this is now illegal.

I think it might be interesting to have a forum where anybody can ask questions but the only people that can make suggestions are people whose children have turned out to be really excellent.

Sorry, I guess I'm just adding further confusion to this topic.

paul wheaton wrote:I think it might be interesting to have a forum where anybody can ask questions but the only people that can make suggestions are people whose children have turned out to be really excellent.

Is my brain supposed to be capable of figuring out how to make that happen? And who gets to decide whose children are excellent? I'm going with just 'cider press' for now, until further notice, or inspiration strikes.

Burra Maluca wrote:

paul wheaton wrote:I think it might be interesting to have a forum where anybody can ask questions but the only people that can make suggestions are people whose children have turned out to be really excellent.

Is my brain supposed to be capable of figuring out how to make that happen? And who gets to decide whose children are excellent? I'm going with just 'cider press' for now, until further notice, or inspiration strikes.

It was just a crazy idea that would be impossible to implement. Kind of painting a picture of how this really should be in the side of breast.

Side of breast is how my voice recognition software interprets cider Press.

parenting forum
kids forum

Enjoy - but not too much because it's nearly my bedtime and I don't want to have too much mess to sort out in the morning...

Anyone with pie should be able to add suitable threads to the kids forum - please help out by doing so, or by creating new threads! I don't like empty forums...

If anyone with four apples or more wants to start a thread in the parenting forum, please feel free.

Don't have kids, but the parenting topic is of course interesting and important.....

Don't like the Cider Press concept per se, but would not want to be in Burra's shoes either, like a single smoke-jumper circling over an ever-expanding fire.

@Paul "...do very little."
"... put up on a massive pedestal."
"... turned out to be really excellent. "

Unfortunately all of these statements likely will fall into the "one man's trash is another man's treasure" department I fear.
Under the best of circumstances, you could keep the parenting forum open and weed out non-compliance. But I have to agree that given the touchiness of the topic, the gatekeeping effect of Cider Press may be the best option.

Ooops....looks like it was just made so.

Woohoo! I know it's touchy, but I'm excited

I promise to play nice!!

To restate what burra said:

Anybody who has pie, now has the superpower find threads in other forums and add the new kids forum to those threads.

This feature has recently been added for people with pie: the ability to make a thread appear in as many as 3 forums. In other words, the ability to add forums to a thread.

This is a great way to populate a brand new forum with lots of excellent content from years gone by.

paul wheaton wrote:To restate what burra said:

Anybody who has pie, now has the superpower find threads in other forums and add the new kids forum to those threads.

This feature has recently been added for people with pie: the ability to make a thread appear in as many as 3 forums. In other words, the ability to add forums to a thread.

This is a great way to populate a brand new forum with lots of excellent content from years gone by.

Can topics be in both 'parenting' and regular forums (not cider press stuff)? I thought cider press effectively locked out folks with not enough apples, so some old topics might end up closed to the OP if they are moved or added to 'parenting'.....

I'm mentioning because I see a topic in 'parenting' that is also in 'ancestral skills'. https://permies.com/t/51419/ancestral-skills/Ancestral-Parenting (EDIT...it was when I wrote this...corrected now)

I know this is kiiiind of awful, but I thought of it when Paul mentioned the standards of excellence with kids, Bill Burr on medocre kids and overpopulation

I don't even like comedians, but this guy is freaking hilarious.

Judith Browning wrote:

paul wheaton wrote:To restate what burra said:

Anybody who has pie, now has the superpower find threads in other forums and add the new kids forum to those threads.

This feature has recently been added for people with pie: the ability to make a thread appear in as many as 3 forums. In other words, the ability to add forums to a thread.

This is a great way to populate a brand new forum with lots of excellent content from years gone by.

Can topics be in both 'parenting' and regular forums (not cider press stuff)? I thought cider press effectively locked out folks with not enough apples, so some old topics might end up closed to the OP if they are moved or added to 'parenting'.....

I'm mentioning because I see a topic in 'parenting' that is also in 'ancestral skills'. https://permies.com/t/51419/ancestral-skills/Ancestral-Parenting

Cider press stuff is different. I'm not sure exactly how it is handled, but I think you should not be able to add a cider press forum to A thread.

Destiny Hagest wrote:I know this is kiiiind of awful, but I thought of it when Paul mentioned the standards of excellence with kids, Bill Burr on medocre kids and overpopulation

I don't even like comedians, but this guy is freaking hilarious.

That video was only 5 minutes long and I got a whole lot of laughs out of it. Thanks for sharing - I needed that.

Both of my children are smart, productive and able to support themselves. Both of my brother's children messed with drugs early on and they are a drain on the system and on the family. Twenty years ago, I warned him that if he failed at parenting, he would still be raising kids when they are 40. It's heading in that direction. Some of it may have been luck. Some was very predictable.

We should refrain from naming anyone, if the outcome was not good. Nothing wrong with naming parents that did a great job.

I went through my old posts and added a bunch to the "Kids" forum. They would fit in "Parenting," too, but since everyone stayed really polite and helpful, I didn't want to constrain them to the Cider Press. There's a lot of threads that have happened on here about parenting that went really well, but generally people were asking specific questions, such as "How do you garden with a baby?" and "What are good permaculture books for kids?" and "How to time growing a family and starting a homestead?" and "What tree to plant for my baby's first birthday?"



Edit: I just realized I have now posted 747 posts. I feel like an airplane!

I guess this thread got moved to the cider press, I'm not sure if I can get into the cider press or not, but it seems that it's worth simply stating some permaculture principles and generally speculating on how they might be applied to create new visions of parenting, regardless of particular philosophies or beliefs.  Questions to ponder.  Then the answers can go in the cider press.  Or if this has unknowingly started a conflagration, maybe it can get moved there by someone who knows how to do that?

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1. Multiple elements to serve a single function -- it takes a village to raise a child, parents supported by whole community so they can focus on being parents and children can have maximal sane parents as nurturers and role models

2. multiple functions served by individual elements -- parents as teachers. others in the community as exemplars.  children as workers and as exemplars.  helping other parents instead of having kids yourself or in addition to.  offering to babysit to give parents a chance to recharge as an act of parenting.  reparenting oneself is a way of parenting one's children and any other children in one's life.

3. obtain a yield--what is the goal of raising "better" children?  they are happier, they bring harmony and peace and constructive choice-making to the community, they develop their unique gifts and are satisfied with their lives, not needing to take from others in order to fill the void

4. edge effects--children rub up against other children, parents of many different viewpoints

5. polyculture--similar, many varied experiences contribute to learning.  Extended family and neighborliness.  ...?

6. capturing and soaking flows--...?

7. the problem is the solution--the children are our teachers...

8. STUN--hm...cider press!...Well, but if it's already happened, then what do we do about it?  we could talk about making initiation conscious, and recognizing through an initiation ritual the adolescent impulse to stand on one's own, to rebel against the known and try the unknown, to put one's life at risk, to test the limits, to dare things with boldness or even rashness...the village honoring this with a ritual of homecoming or with an initiation in the wild.  Non-enabling? OK, more cider-press

9. perennial thinking vs. annual thinking--I think most people would agree you aren't trying to raise your kid to maximize quarterly returns at the expense of all their future productivity and happiness.  But maybe some of us have paraded our children to make an impression on the Joneses in a short-sighted way, or have "lived vicariously through our children."  Or paid too much attention to what grade they got in high school, and not enough to the massive student debt they were now choosing to graduate from college with.  Something along those lines, not sure I can think of what else this means. How has "organic" or "conventional/pesticide-fertilizer/fossil-fueled" thinking distorted our ideas of parenting?

10.  designing for permanence--think about the 7th generation!  That's the number of generations that indigenous people seem to focus on, in South Africa, among the Shoshone and Iroquois...at any rate it's a broader, more permanent view than looking at maximizing your child's wellfare by encouraging them to exploit and destroy the planet your grandchildren will live on.  Also, it should be noted that designing living systems for permanence is not the same as building rock monuments for permanence--they are dynamic, ever-growing, ever-increasing in complexity.  what makes sense today that is different from whta made sense in our parents' or grandparents' generation?

11. most of all--observe, observe, observe: I think most people can agree about this one, and all of us can do it more and better.  Listen.  

Also, it's got to be true that we as children make observations ourselves--what we learn from the world around us can be distorted by interpretation or it can be more direct.  If we are eating the food we had a hand in growing ourselves, then we're observing something very directly, and learning very accurately about the impact of our choices.

I was listening to a podcast on Fukuoka today, and how his peach trees failed at first because he did nothing after they'd already been dependent on human pruning for a long time--and yet when he let them start _from seed_ they did fabulously.  Now, human children never start in the wild (with very rare exceptions, I guess)--there's already a lot of human momentum going that influences them.  But humans can also make new choices.  But those choices may be poor choices in a context of starting from a pruned-peach-tree situation vs. starting in a more wide-open, fresh situation...how do we relate to the past thinking and past choices' consequences? how can we be more and more conscious?