• Post Reply Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
  • New Topic
permaculture forums growies critters building homesteading energy monies kitchen purity ungarbage community wilderness fiber arts art permaculture artisans regional education skip experiences global resources cider press projects digital market permies.com pie forums private forums all forums
this forum made possible by our volunteer staff, including ...
master stewards:
  • Anne Miller
  • jordan barton
  • Pearl Sutton
  • Leigh Tate
  • paul wheaton
stewards:
  • r ranson
  • Nicole Alderman
  • Greg Martin
master gardeners:
  • Carla Burke
  • John F Dean
  • Jay Angler
gardeners:
  • Nancy Reading
  • Mike Barkley
  • Christopher Shepherd

the first wofati greenhouse design

 
steward
Posts: 11864
Location: Northern WI (zone 4)
3285
3
hunting trees books food preservation solar woodworking
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I can't really confirm or deny the math, but if it's accurate and you have 240 lbs of weight spread evenly along a 4' long 3.5" diameter pole, it'll be fine.  Take that same pole and pretend a 240 lb person is hanging from the middle and it will barely deflect.  And that's with a point load at each hand.  Spread out their load and they'd barely bend it.

I'd probably try to aim for the fat end of the poles to be under the heavier parts of the roof.  So probably all the poles would have their butt end into the depth of the wofati.

The 10' span of the purlins may be a bigger concern.  Use fat logs for those
 
Posts: 58
Location: Harrodsburg, United States
23
2
dog chicken pig
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Josiah, have you had a chance to look at the document Julie mentioned? It has some very applicable data, at least if the species are comparable to what you have there at Wheaton Lab. The Montana Fish and Wildlife website indicates the predominant species of tree is either Douglass fir or Ponderosa pine, I believe they are typically considered to be slightly stronger than the spruce listed in that document. The numbers I saw seem to confirm Mike's comment that the beams and rafters are a bigger concern than the actual 3.5" roof poles.
 
steward
Posts: 17991
Location: Pacific Northwest
8441
7
hugelkultur kids cat duck forest garden foraging fiber arts sheep wood heat homestead
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Dez posted these great pictures of the greenhouse build in his Bootcamp thread. I don't know if anyone spotted them there, so I wanted to make sure you saw how it's coming along. It's super exciting to me!

round wood posts for building structure

roundwood framework for greenhouse

Am I right in assuming that these are the posts surrounding the trench area, where I drew the lady standing?

sketch of Truly Passive Wofati Greenhouse

 
Posts: 17
8
3
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Could you please point me toward the discussion on how the thermal wells were installed? I'd like to try putting in a thermal well and setting a water tank on top to prevent freezing in the winter. Thanks!
 
master steward
Posts: 35656
Location: missoula, montana (zone 4)
hugelkultur trees chicken wofati bee woodworking
  • Likes 3
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
You mean this?  https://permies.com/wiki/145105/wofati-greenhouse-design-build-raw

 
Mary Combs
Posts: 17
8
3
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Yes - thank you - one of the videos has an explanation that you used an excavator - dug out a platform for the excavator at the depth its arm extends to and then dug the rest of the depth from that platform. I have an excavator - though I'm not sure the maximum depth it will dig. I'm also not sure I have 30+ feet of cover - but it would be a fun fact to discover when I have the time to try out this technique. I was hoping you had some clever method of drilling a hole to set the casing into, without the expense of a well drilling company. if it is just a matter of digging it in, that's within our capabilities. Its just that disturbing that much ground will create a mess that will take at least a year to settle - and the area around a water tank is going to potentially stay sloppy for a lot longer once the ground is disturbed. I'm interested in any other thoughts you might have on this application of a thermal well.
 
Posts: 58
Location: Mid-Missouri
4
4
forest garden fungi tiny house
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Are the live zoom discussions being recorded?

If yes, is there a thread with a listing for them?

I'm unable to attend the live zooms but would like to follow along as I'm hoping to be able to build a similar structure this November. A single resource with all the relevant designs, plans, discussion threads, zooms, would be wonderful.
 
pollinator
Posts: 153
Location: Pacific Northwest
67
4
forest garden fungi wofati cooking solar homestead
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
They're being recorded for the movie, not sure if they're planning on releasing them in their entirely
 
paul wheaton
master steward
Posts: 35656
Location: missoula, montana (zone 4)
hugelkultur trees chicken wofati bee woodworking
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
We do a zoom thing 3 times per week.  All 3 are recorded so taht bits might make it into the final movie.  The friday sessions are posted cuz that was what we offered to the kickstarter backers at $50 and up.
 
paul wheaton
master steward
Posts: 35656
Location: missoula, montana (zone 4)
hugelkultur trees chicken wofati bee woodworking
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

I was hoping you had some clever method of drilling a hole to set the casing into, without the expense of a well drilling company.



We've talked about this quite a few times.  We think we can make a hole about six feet deep with our electric auger.   And there are some ways of making holes by hand that are super slow.  We are open to more ideas.  

Here's a possible idea:  https://permies.com/t/54084/permaculture-projects/Digging-extendable-post-hole-auger

So - put a tall post in the ground next to the hole, or maybe set up a tripod.  Maybe something could be dug 20 feet deep in a few hours.

 
paul wheaton
master steward
Posts: 35656
Location: missoula, montana (zone 4)
hugelkultur trees chicken wofati bee woodworking
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
From dez's thread:

 
Posts: 73
13
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I haven't seen a suggestion for this with the search function, but I thought it might be at least an interesting discussion to bring up. Would it be worth the while to apply a thermal barrier to the inside of the greenhouse?

I was researching a ghillie suit that was made to thwart infrared imaging.  It had a super-cheap, DIY way to make thermal barrier. You spray glue two sides of bubble wrap together, with the bubble sides facing each other, then you spray glue emergency blankets to both sides of the bubble wrap, making a bubble wrap-space blanket sandwich.  It struck me as a pretty cheap way to make something with abundant materials (space blankets are fairly cheap; like a dollar each, maybe less if you buy a lot of them). And it seemed to work pretty well for him.

So I was wondering if I could apply it to an empty shed and skimp on putting up insulation and drywall.  I found that thermal barrier is to be used mainly in conjunction with insulation, but it's usually used in the attic to reflect heat back out when the sun beats on the roof, and to reflect heat rising back down and away from the barrier.

What sayest thou?
Thermal-barrier-for-Greenhouse.png
bad drawing by dork
bad drawing by dork
 
pollinator
Posts: 1694
Location: Massachusetts, 6b, suburban, nearish coast, 50x50, full sun, 40" year-round even distribution
173
4
kids purity trees urban writing
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Just found a bit about greenhouses from the original horse Bill Mollison--he talks about growing stuff you'd have to import that would cost lots of land and labor for people elsewhere: ginger, coffee, tea, pineapples, cinnamon, vanilla (and I'd add chocolate).  He was suggesting sinking the first story of a 2-story greenhouse, but  the editor of the pamphlets wrote this: ". . .beware of severe thermal stratification problems in 2- story greenhouses. One story with dwarfs performs much better. --DH]"  In case this is relevant.  page 92 of the pdf document "Introduction to Permaculture", the PDC Mollison gave in New Hampshire.
 
Nicole Alderman
steward
Posts: 17991
Location: Pacific Northwest
8441
7
hugelkultur kids cat duck forest garden foraging fiber arts sheep wood heat homestead
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Lots of work has happened on the wofati greenhouse!

This one is from Josiah's thread at the end of January



And the beginning of February




Here's an aerial picture from Josiah's thread:

aerial view of wofati greenhouse

And then

Celebrate! The roof is cobbed and ready for it's tarp and then earth!
 
Nicole Alderman
steward
Posts: 17991
Location: Pacific Northwest
8441
7
hugelkultur kids cat duck forest garden foraging fiber arts sheep wood heat homestead
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
A new Boot, Matthew Stone made this timelapse of dirt being added to the top of the greenhouse!



You can check out his BRK blog here!
 
Nicole Alderman
steward
Posts: 17991
Location: Pacific Northwest
8441
7
hugelkultur kids cat duck forest garden foraging fiber arts sheep wood heat homestead
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
There's more sneak-peaks of the Abyss Greenhouse in Josiah's thread!

man chainsawing roundwood greenhouse
the front of the greenhouse is coming along!


earth-sheltered greenhouse build
a view inside the greenhouse!
 
Nicole Alderman
steward
Posts: 17991
Location: Pacific Northwest
8441
7
hugelkultur kids cat duck forest garden foraging fiber arts sheep wood heat homestead
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Ooooh, and Josiah just posted, two new videos, too!

This one is about optimizing low-angle light:




And this one gives a nice pan of the front of the greenhouse:

 
pollinator
Posts: 302
Location: Wheaton Labs
690
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
The design continues! The mass wall is fully installed on the North side of the greenhouse. Now that the framing has settled under the weight of its earthen roof, it's time to figure out the South facing glass wall!

I want to design the South wall carpentry to absorb or deflect the force of the shifting round wood so that it does not damage the glass or reduce its water tightness. I have two primary strategies that are steering this design.

1. Create air gaps between the glass and any round wood or directly tied dimensional wood.

2. The glass supporting frame is fastened to the roundwood structure at its base, but simply rests against the roof edge to allow for slight slipping between the two.
Scan_20210406.jpg
here is a first scale drawing of the carpentry in the side wall
here is a first scale drawing of the carpentry in the side wall
 
Josiah Kobernik
pollinator
Posts: 302
Location: Wheaton Labs
690
  • Likes 3
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
The glass shop that I was planning to work with is apparently backed up with jobs until August, and none of the other shops that I have contacted have any experience or willingness to consult on a custom glass roof installation. Time to dig deep and figure it out!

We want to use tempered, un-coated, double pane units. The larger the unit, the less overall frame shading.

My research is now aimed at determining which kind of sash (aluminum, vinyl, with curb, just a nail fin, etc) will be the most appropriate for our design.

We could just get the double pane units without any cladding, but custom fabricating fittings for bare double pane units sounds risky to me. I'm better suited to working with a chainsaw.

Scan_20210406-(2).jpg
front view of South wall carpentry
front view of South wall carpentry
 
Now I am super curious what sports would be like if we allowed drugs and tiny ads.
Ernie and Erica Wisner's Rocket Mass Heater Everything Combo
https://permies.com/t/40993/Ernie-Erica-Wisner-Rocket-Mass
reply
    Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
  • New Topic