Who’s Really Practicing Biodynamics?

Hey there I’m new here, maybe yearsss who I had an account (don’t like my username but oh well)

Anyways I own and operate a regenerative organic hemp and market farm in Coastal SE NC using KNF and Biodynamic practices.

From a lot of what I have been reading lately is it seems almost no one is actually doing Steiner’s original preparations, but don’t at all or use a variance.

Do you all practice rigorously? Only follow the peeps? Only follow the cosmic rhythms? Any side by side pictures of Biodynamics vs Conventional or even Organic methods?

I 100% believe about the cosmic rhythms and influence, and have been using to a slight degree these with my sowing and growing. But want to get back at it. Actually just listened to Steiner’s lectures early this week, quite eye opening, but also he was pretty out there.

I see some of you don’t use cow horns, this kind of excites me because I don’t have money to buy horns nor a cow, but was wondering of ways to run the preps.

Hey Brandon.

Welcome.

Did you come across Redhawk's threads on Biodynamics and Soil. Worth checking out.

Here is the one on Biodynamics

Redhawk


And what we here at Permies like to call his Epic Soil Series

Redhawks Soil Series

If you're just looking for some practicing bd farmers in your area, Demeter has a directory of certified farms. Its not the end all be a but its a start.
Biodynamicfood.org

Lee Gee wrote:Hey Brandon.

Welcome.

Did you come across Redhawk's threads on Biodynamics and Soil. Worth checking out.

Here is the one on Biodynamics

Redhawk


And what we here at Permies like to call his Epic Soil Series

Redhawks Soil Series

Haha yes I saw RedHawks preps, thanks! I’ll check out the other

s. lowe wrote:If you're just looking for some practicing bd farmers in your area, Demeter has a directory of certified farms. Its not the end all be a but its a start.
Biodynamicfood.org

No I’m just wondering if those who claim biodynamics actually practice it fully? There are Zero near me and only 4 in my entire state of NC. I’ll definitely say with my limited resources so I don’t have all the preps or cow horns, but got horsetail and making a tea (sowed chamomile and yarrow and have valerian and stinging nettle on the way) and planting strictly (with experiments planting on nodes or apogee etc) on the correct days and times according to the moon and planets, and it’s a Clear beneficial difference. Can’t wait to go full BD to see the difference.

I am full on permaculture and organic. I am gradually practicing more and more biodynamic. I've used the horsetail prep, BD tree paste, and I have planted some of the plants in my yard in the prospect of continuing to use them in the future.  I also have read some books and I"m trying to incorporate the general philosphy into my practice. I've gone to a local BD farm and seen and asked questions about what they're doing. It sounds like there is a lot more BD up here than over there.
John S
PDX OR

This has me curious. Biodynamics that I know of are from a gentlemen in PA out of bradford. His tomato plants are amazing. But im looking for something short and "lame brained" to answer my question on this:I see Permaculture and biodynamic gardening interchanged a lot on some posts her at permies.
Are they both the same? is one a branch of the other?

They are different traditions that use some of the same practices and have some of the same goals.

They aren't one and the same.  It's like a Venn diagram.  

John S
PDX OR

To add to John's response, "permaculture" is a pretty broad concept that seems to me, at its core, to be an attitude/outlook more so.than a specific proscription.

Biodynamics on the other hand is a very specific set of practices, fairly narrowly defined, and rooted in a set of rules/practices laid down by Rudolph Steiner and his cohort about a century ago.

To draw the square:rectangle comparison ; all biodynamic practices are permaculture but not all permaculture is biodynamic.

I also remembered two other local-ish resources for Brandon l, if he's still looking. The Josephine Porter Institute in W. VA is a biodynamic research farm and they also produce preps. And in N. GA there is a man named Hugh Lovell who is perhaps the best known, most respected BD practitioner in the US today. Although he's pretty advanced in years so I don't know how.much farming is going on at his farm anymore

I would mostly agree with s. lowe but I have one main disagreement.

Since Rudolf Steiner was a psychic, a lot of his information is spiritually based, and not from empirical, scientifically based studies.  Many permaculturalists dislike Rudolf Steiner and biodynamics for that reason.  I don't feel that way, but many do.

Many permaculturalists hate "purple" permaculture-things that aren't proven, hard science.

I think they have a lot of overlap but not all of the biodynamic practices are permaculture.  

John S
PDX OR

John Suavecito wrote:I would mostly agree with s. lowe but I have one main disagreement.

Since Rudolf Steiner was a psychic, a lot of his information is spiritually based, and not from empirical, scientifically based studies.  Many permaculturalists dislike Rudolf Steiner and biodynamics for that reason.  I don't feel that way, but many do.

Many permaculturalists hate "purple" permaculture-things that aren't proven, hard science.

I think they have a lot of overlap but not all of the biodynamic practices are permaculture.  

John S
PDX OR

John, I'm curious what bd practices you would consider to not fall under the permaculture banner?

It's also worth noting that Steiner was very  much a scientist. He did a number of experiments with chromatography as well as working directly with farmers and gardeners to test specific uses of the techniques he recommended. He's more in the old tradition of scientist/naturalist like Goethe or Schauberg than a lab coat chemist but he wasn't just channeling information with no context.

All that said, I definitely understand why people wouldn't like biodynamics for all its "purple" baggage. I personally view it as a system that combines both "brown" cultivation systems/techniques with "purple" spiritual/social techniques designed to anchor the gardener/farmer's emotional energy to the crop. Its actually remarkably well designed to put a person into a "permanent" mindset in relation to their garden, which is why it seems like a natural fit under the permie umbrella

When you talk about the energies of the moon, when you talk about putting ground quartz crystals and herbs upside down in horns, bladders and intestines, many permaculturists don't consider those preps to be scientifically validated.
John S
PDX OR

s. lowe wrote:

John Suavecito wrote:I would mostly agree with s. lowe but I have one main disagreement.

Since Rudolf Steiner was a psychic, a lot of his information is spiritually based, and not from empirical, scientifically based studies.  Many permaculturalists dislike Rudolf Steiner and biodynamics for that reason.  I don't feel that way, but many do.

Many permaculturalists hate "purple" permaculture-things that aren't proven, hard science.

I think they have a lot of overlap but not all of the biodynamic practices are permaculture.  

John S
PDX OR

John, I'm curious what bd practices you would consider to not fall under the permaculture banner?

It's also worth noting that Steiner was very  much a scientist. He did a number of experiments with chromatography as well as working directly with farmers and gardeners to test specific uses of the techniques he recommended. He's more in the old tradition of scientist/naturalist like Goethe or Schauberg than a lab coat chemist but he wasn't just channeling information with no context.

All that said, I definitely understand why people wouldn't like biodynamics for all its "purple" baggage. I personally view it as a system that combines both "brown" cultivation systems/techniques with "purple" spiritual/social techniques designed to anchor the gardener/farmer's emotional energy to the crop. Its actually remarkably well designed to put a person into a "permanent" mindset in relation to their garden, which is why it seems like a natural fit under the permie umbrella

By my definition, he was very much not a scientist, for reasons that John noted.  I am one of the people that greatly dislikes biodynamics.  Dr Redhawk does a great job of explaining why some of the preparations work, and I think some of them have value, but I dislike all the mumbo-jumbo that is associated.  It creates a very cult-like feel that doesn't leave room for asking questions or experimentation.  I personally feel the same results can be achieved with simple, practical steps and without the esoteric ideas.

I kinda do biodynamics, and I say kinda because I'm just getting started and did my first ever application of a biodynamic preparation last year. Right now I don't make my own preparations and I purchase things like the bd500 horn manure etc. I do plan to get into making my own preparations on site, but in due time. For example, I just got cows on my farm, and in the not too distant future I will be able to make my own bd500.

My wife doesn't understand biodynamics, and she doesn't need to. She doesn't ridicule or belittle what I do and respects what I believe in. She doesn't believe in anything beyond atoms that make up everything, and doesn't believe in invisible energies beyond gravity and magnetic fields. I understand the biology going on with some of the biodynamic preparations and I also believe there is much more going on in the universe than just atoms.

Esoteric concepts and mumbo-jumbo aside, I find interesting the success farmers have when choosing to practice biodynamics, freeing themselves from off farm inputs and having a completely closed system of making their own sustainable on-farm inputs, and they don't go back to their old ways. It seems to me if it didn't work, or was unsustainable, it would be abandoned. Farmers & gardeners practicing biodynamics report that things "seem to come together" or "everything falls into place" resulting in healthy crop production with little disease and pest pressure.

In my opinion, I think biodynamics has a place as one of the tools to choose from in permaculture for the sole reason of creating on-farm sustainability that is independent, regenerating and self-cycling.

James Freyr wrote:
Esoteric concepts and mumbo-jumbo aside, I find interesting the success farmers have when choosing to practice biodynamics, freeing themselves from off farm inputs and having a completely closed system of making their own sustainable on-farm inputs, and they don't go back to their old ways. It seems to me if it didn't work, or was unsustainable, it would be abandoned.

James, I respect your opinion and I think everyone needs to follow their own path.  I would say this.  Of all the successful farmer's in the world, including those that are sustainable, what percentage of them do you think use biodynamics?  I don't know of course, but my guess would be that the number is very, very low.  That leads me to believe that, at a bare minimum, there are other ways that work as well.  Paul of Back to Eden Garden fame, for instance, no longer brings any inputs unto his land, and his gardens are amazingly productive.  For every "famous" person like Paul, I think there are a lot of people just quietly doing it.  Amish are another example.  I don't find biodynamics as some terrible thing, I just find it unnecessary.  Take it with a grain of salt of course, I've only read about it and not put any of it into practice.

I personally agree with James, pretty much straight up.  I don't pretend to understand exactly why biodynamics works, but I can see that it works. I use some of the preps, and I am interested in pursuing more of them, particularly following Dr. Redhawk's adaptations.  I am not committed to it if there are parts that don't work.  If a maul is too bulky, use a hatchet.  It's one of the tools that we can use.  

My main point is just to explain that not all of biodynamics would be accepted as part of permaculture.  Some people are 100% committed to both, but some are not.

John S
PDX OR

I would find it fascinating if the two of you would do some kind of side by side testing of it.  Two or four or six beds in the same area, all other variables as close as possible to the same, and use a biodynamic prep on half, and some suitable substitute, say compost or compost tea, on the other half, and see what the results were.  No matter the results, it would be interesting, and I would trust someone on permies to be more honest about the results than someone I've never heard of.  If biodynamics truly do offer a benefit, I would be willing to give it a try.  If it doesn't appear to make a big difference, then people would have more data to go on when deciding whether to use them.

Trace Oswald wrote: Of all the successful farmer's in the world, including those that are sustainable, what percentage of them do you think use biodynamics?  I don't know of course, but my guess would be that the number is very, very low.

I don't know what the numbers are, but my guess also is the number is very low, under 5%, but it appears to me that interest in it is growing, and with progressive changes happening around the globe in the last few decades, it gets more mention now I think because it is different. I think that biodynamics may be attractive to farming & gardening folks who also embrace some type of spirituality. (I'm trying to compose my response as a contributor without my moderator hat on, but while I am a moderator here I am trying to carefully craft a reply while not turning this thread into a discussion about spirituality, which is very challenging for me because it is a fundamental part of biodynamics, and we have a biodynamics forum)

That leads me to believe that, at a bare minimum, there are other ways that work as well. Paul of Back to Eden Garden fame, for instance, no longer brings any inputs unto his land, and his gardens are amazingly productive.  For every "famous" person like Paul, I think there are a lot of people just quietly doing it.  Amish are another example.  I don't find biodynamics as some terrible thing, I just find it unnecessary.  Take it with a grain of salt of course, I've only read about it and not put any of it into practice.

Yes indeed, I wholeheartedly agree there are other ways that work very well. I believe there are many sustainable ways to produce food aligned with permaculture and stewardship of the land for different people to choose from. I think people choose what they're comfortable with.

Trace Oswald wrote:I would find it fascinating if the two of you would do some kind of side by side testing of it.  

Maria Thun (1922-2012), a biodynamic farmer, has done this.

I have read Steiners agriculture lectures, and in them he asks everyone to test, replicate results and prove or disprove the instructions he is giving. Maria Thun devoted a lifetime to researching Steiners instructions, growing fruits and vegetables side by side using and not using preparations and planting during different times of the lunar cycle for example, keeping records of the results and amassing a body of work. In the book Gardening For Life - The Biodynamic Way there are really neat photographs of some of the side by side comparisons of some of the vegetable trials.

I 100% understand your (and other's) reticence and resistance to biodyanimcs Trace. There's a lot of strangeness afoot to say the least.

But I would second the recommendation to look into Maria Thun as her (and her son Mathias) have conducted plenty of trials to convince me that the astronomical circumstance effects plant growth. And I would urge folks who are curious to look deeper into Steiner's own history. I agree that the basis of biodynamics isn't rooted in decades of trials, but Steiner wasn't just some random person who 'channeled' some message one day and spread it far and wide. There is a reason that he was asked about his take on the state of agriculture, which lead to the lectures that are the foundation of biodynamics. And it is because he, and his community, were running all kinds of trials on technique and timing within the context of pre-ww1 northern european farming.

The other thing that I want to touch on is in response to John about the unscientific aspects of BD. And I just want to say that that disclusion of those practices from permaculture only works from a framework that includes only 'brown' permaculture and no 'purple' stuff. And I personally believe that the primary function of the purple stuff (whether it is BD or something else) is to tie folks, emotionally, to their gardens. It doesn't really matter whether spraying ground up quartz mixed into water in a super specific way, on a specific day, actually does anything physiologically to the plants as long as it gives the garden a deeper importance to the gardener. A lot of biodynamics, from my perspective, is about cultivating the gardener to create a deeply committed care taker for the swath of earth in question.  

Trace Oswald wrote:...Paul of Back to Eden Garden fame, for instance, no longer brings any inputs unto his land, and his gardens are amazingly productive...

Could you please clarify a bit about what falls under the category of "off-land input"? I thought his entire system was and still is built upon arborist wood chips being brought in? I like wood chips and use them, but I see them as an input and also something that requires some brutal machinery to process. I'm interested in learning cover cropping techniques and home made compost/tea type things more closely related to biodynamics in the future so just trying to scratch the surface of what might be, and what might not be, thanks!

John Suavecito wrote:Many permaculturalists hate "purple" permaculture-things that aren't proven, hard science.

My perception is different from yours.

I think most permies, maybe 60% embrace "there are many schools of thought under the permaculture umbrella."  About 25% think that permaculture isn't permaculture without a purple vibe.   And 15% are adamant of what you suggest:  no purple allowed - not one spec.  And Bill Mollison was part of this 15% - and I do think that since the word is his we should have some respect for that.

As for proven hard science or nothing:  that would be a smaller group within the 15%.  Maybe half?  And I kinda think that innovation and anecdotal attempts is the predecessor to hard science.   And it is that innovation and attempts that are the roots of this community.

Trace Oswald wrote:  Of all the successful farmer's in the world, including those that are sustainable, what percentage of them do you think use biodynamics?  I don't know of course, but my guess would be that the number is very, very low.  That leads me to believe that, at a bare minimum, there are other ways that work as well.

I wish for things.  

And my vocabulary and my ideas and my wishes shift as the decades pass ...  

I wish for more food to come from gardens rather than farms.  Because of this wish, I prefer to see 100 million successful gardeners than a million successful farmers.  

I know that near missoula, one of the most successful farms is a biodynamic farm.  

When you say "there are other ways that work as well" that gives my innards all sorts of thoughts ...   "work as well" could be "the USDA has classified this material as food for human consumption" but that would not be as "well," to me, as food grown in a polyculture on rich gardener's soil.  

I get the impression that a lot of people start with gardening and, in time, move to organic gardening ...

      ... and in time, move to permaculture gardening

             ....  and eventually settle on biodynamic

I would rather eat poorly gardened biodynamic food than conventionally farmed food.

I wish to encourage permaculture gardening and biodynamic gardening.  And I choose to believe that all of biodynamic gardening falls within the rather broad definition of permaculture.

Tyler Greene wrote:

Trace Oswald wrote:...Paul of Back to Eden Garden fame, for instance, no longer brings any inputs unto his land, and his gardens are amazingly productive...

Could you please clarify a bit about what falls under the category of "off-land input"? I thought his entire system was and still is built upon arborist wood chips being brought in? I like wood chips and use them, but I see them as an input and also something that requires some brutal machinery to process. I'm interested in learning cover cropping techniques and home made compost/tea type things more closely related to biodynamics in the future so just trying to scratch the surface of what might be, and what might not be, thanks!

A good question Tyler.  Paul doesn't bring in wood chips to his gardens or orchards anymore.  He only uses soil created by his chickens.  The argument could easily be made that he can do that because he brought in huge amounts of chips to begin with.  I think most people start by bringing in something, and hopefully, get to the point where they can bring in less and less.  That's what I am trying to do.

paul wheaton wrote:

Trace Oswald wrote:  Of all the successful farmer's in the world, including those that are sustainable, what percentage of them do you think use biodynamics?  I don't know of course, but my guess would be that the number is very, very low.  That leads me to believe that, at a bare minimum, there are other ways that work as well.

I wish for things.  

And my vocabulary and my ideas and my wishes shift as the decades pass ...  

I wish for more food to come from gardens rather than farms.  Because of this wish, I prefer to see 100 million successful gardeners than a million successful farmers.  

I know that near missoula, one of the most successful farms is a biodynamic farm.  

When you say "there are other ways that work as well" that gives my innards all sorts of thoughts ...   "work as well" could be "the USDA has classified this material as food for human consumption" but that would not be as well as food grown in a polyculture on rich gardener's soil.  

I get the impression that a lot of people start with gardening and, in time, move to organic gardening ...

      ... and in time, move to permaculture gardening

             ....  and eventually settle on biodynamic

I would rather eat poorly gardened biodynamic food than conventionally farmed food.

I wish to encourage permaculture gardening and biodynamic gardening.  And I choose to believe that all of biodynamic gardening falls within the rather broad definition of permaculture.

Good point Paul.  My choice of the word "farmer" was poor.  Conventional farms aren't anything I really know about or spend any time thinking about.  With regards to this discussion, I guess "gardener" or "market gardener" or something would have been better.  To clarify, when I say "work as well", I don't mean people that grow anything I can fit in my mouth to fill my stomach.  When I say "work as well", I mean growing food that is as healthy, safe, good tasting, and nutrient-filled as anything grown on a biodynamic farm (or garden).  Regardless of any of that, I agree with everything in your post.  I personally see biodynamic gardening as organic gardening with some unnecessary rituals thrown in.

Trace Oswald wrote: I personally see biodynamic gardening as organic gardening with some unnecessary rituals thrown in.

I could see that many people would find them "unnecessary".

And I see many people that love, love, love permaculture gardening and for the first times in their lives they feel, to their soul, to have a magnificent and beautiful purpose to their existence.   And switching to biodynamic is, to these people, an "upgrade" and the rituals make the whole experience more satisfying.  

When we explore dollars per acre, this joy doesn't appear obvious.  But I think that for some, this joy in the horticultural experience of growing food, does have monetary value.  

The thing I worry about the most is people selling biodynamic food that followed instructions (or worse, skipped some of the "unnecessary rituals") without the joy - just to try to harvest that extra coin with less expense.  

I think it is great that a person looks at biodynamic, runs the math, looks at the profit per acre according to what has been proven according to their values and says "pass."   That's a good thing.  THAT person will choose a path other than biodynamic.   The "profit per acre" path is not the path to biodynamic.   At the same time, I deeply hope that this person does not discourage others from choosing the biodynamic path.  

That's how I think most "purple" permaculturalists see it.  It would still be permaculture without the purple, but not feeding joy to their soul, so it wouldn't be motivating for them.  They don't care if other people still want to do it without joy or a sense of spirit, but for the purples, that's not how they garden or live. They don't want to live without music or art, and they don't want to do permaculture without joy or the sense that everything is connected.

John S
PDX OR

John Suavecito wrote:That's how I think most "purple" permaculturalists see it.  It would still be permaculture without the purple, but not feeding joy to their soul, so it wouldn't be motivating for them.  They don't care if other people still want to do it without joy or a sense of spirit, but for the purples, that's not how they garden or live. They don't want to live without music or art, and they don't want to do permaculture without joy or the sense that everything is connected.

John S
PDX OR

John, I don't see that as an "either or" proposition.  I made a post a bit ago about planting from a place of joy.  If people get that sense of joy and connection from biodynamics, all the best to them.  I get that same joy and peace from my gardening as well.  I get it from watching sprouts emerge from seeds, from seeing the buds form on my trees each year, from finding dozens of worms in every scoop of soil, and on and on.  I believe very much in science and physics, but that in no way lessens the joy I get from the miracles of nature, and it doesn't take away from the feeling of wonder when I see life ending in the fall and beginning again in the spring.  I like to think most people that are interested in permaculture have that connection.  

Biodynamics brought me here, to Permies. I don't claim to practice it fully or faithfully though. I probably would but I don't have enough time as it is... I do like to think however, that a biodynamic gardener wouldn't freak out if they knew how I keep my garden.

I do have a question though. What the hell is a purple permie?

Dan Fish wrote:Biodynamics brought me here, to Permies. I don't claim to practice it fully or faithfully though. I probably would but I don't have enough time as it is... I do like to think however, that a biodynamic gardener wouldn't freak out if they knew how I keep my garden.

I do have a question though. What the hell is a purple permie?

Paul made a post about it here:  Purple permaculture - brown permaculture

This dialogue kind of explains my interpretation:
Geoff Lawton: The reason that teachers were registered, why there was a teachers registration mainly put up is cause some teachers were missing out subjects, particularly earthworks and some teachers were teaching metaphysics.
Bill Mollison: And some people will teach you theory.
Geoff Lawton: So we are about science and ethics...
Bill Mollison: Horror....
Geoff Lawton: ...and not metaphysics. The unproven sciences will discredit and dilute our system.


I look at biodynamics and the like as "purple", meaning the more spiritual, metaphysical way of looking at things.  To me, it would include dowsing and things like that as well.  "Brown" to me is an approach that can be measured by scientific method, can be seen under a microscope, is shown by side to side comparison.  If you plant different gardens beds, use one as a control, use compost tea on one, use biochar on one, and use a compost tea and biochar on one, and compare your results, that is "brown" to me.  Money doesn't enter into the equation for me, but it does for others.

Trace Oswald wrote:

John Suavecito wrote:That's how I think most "purple" permaculturalists see it.  It would still be permaculture without the purple, but not feeding joy to their soul, so it wouldn't be motivating for them.  They don't care if other people still want to do it without joy or a sense of spirit, but for the purples, that's not how they garden or live. They don't want to live without music or art, and they don't want to do permaculture without joy or the sense that everything is connected.

John S
PDX OR

John, I don't see that as an "either or" proposition.  I made a post a bit ago about planting from a place of joy.  If people get that sense of joy and connection from biodynamics, all the best to them.  I get that same joy and peace from my gardening as well.  I get it from watching sprouts emerge from seeds, from seeing the buds form on my trees each year, from finding dozens of worms in every scoop of soil, and on and on.  I believe very much in science and physics, but that in no way lessens the joy I get from the miracles of nature, and it doesn't take away from the feeling of wonder when I see life ending in the fall and beginning again in the spring.  I like to think most people that are interested in permaculture have that connection.  

The point is that, in my experience, purple permaculturalists don't feel that joy anymore when they are insulted or demeaned. We have seen quite a bit of it over the years.  If you don't like it, do your thing somewhere else and don't try to shut down the party.

John S
PDX OR

To directly answer the original question: best source is already on the thread from s. lowe: a Demeter certified directory is exactly what you want. http://biodynamicfood.org/ Go talk to those people, they will be your best first-hand source of information, much better than us yammering internet weirdos.

AND

I lived two summers on an Earthship project in Driggs, ID. There were 3 Demeter certified farms in the valley. Two of them supplied us with produce for our weekly wood fired pizza stand at the farmer's market. It was darn convenient when we ran out of topping to just pop over to their stand. Gotta say, fine tasty produce. I asked around a lot after that, and the consistent answer I got was this:

"Yeeeeah... I've heard good things about [biodynamics], but it's just not something that works into most practical farm schedules. You get done what you can get done." The realities of most farm life doesn't come with the luxury of extra time, for something that can seem rather silly. Tracey's right when she finds it unnecessary - there are plenty of practical ways to make your plants grow.  

SO

My understanding of BD is limited but comes down to two basic parts:

(1) moon stuff and (2) preparations

(1) There's the lunar cycle, where the moon in different places corresponds to strengthening parts of the plant, much like a magnetic tide. It's not such a wild idea, especially because they've discovered cryptochromes in plants. https://www.abc.net.au/science/articles/2014/01/24/3931083.htm

(2) The preparations and infamous "horn." Basically you're just making specific composts. A lot of this goes over my head. But it has a lot to do with minerals. IE - Horsetail is basically silica. Burying the horn is basically like creating the world's most amazing yogurt starter. Shape is also important here. The horn is the same shape created by the vortex - the little tornado that happens when you spin water really fast to poach an egg, the whirlpool when you drain your bathtub.

Is this a bunch of hooey?

This is my favorite part about biodynamics, and why is it utterly relevant to the conversation around "purple" and "brown" permaculture styles. Here's the hypothesis: The more precisely you follow the recipe, the greater results you will see. And don't take my word for it! The best thing about science is that you do the experiments yourself, and accept the feedback. Biodynamics holds up brilliantly in brown because the more controlled you are about the process, the more you're gaining.

Following on with the browns and purples:

I had a revelation moment here in Australia. I've been living here for the past 16 months, saturating in the mindset of the original permaculture people. I'll see if I can explain it, because it's been swimming around as a vague concept in my mind.

See if you can shift your frame for a moment, whether you identify as brown or purple. Instead of a world where browns look down on purples, and purples discounts brown, what if you placed them on a spectrum? Much like we do at the beginning of a PDC, when students line up on the spectrum between "earth care" and "people care." And what if instead of purple and brown, you called them art and science. They are both so important to the whole of the permaculture movement - that odd global group of early adapters and ecological experimenters, who have seen enough of the current data to discern a disturbing pattern about human life on this planet and where it's heading.

Art is how we understand the world, how we process. Did you ever lose something, and listen to a sad song that helped you connect with how you were feeling? This is the essential value of art. Yes it's messy and silly and colorful and completely necessary in everything. Even farming. And the control of science helps us become better observers and caretakers, noting the subtleties and preciseness that the artists miss.

We need both. And it's time to build some heckin' bridges people.

This is what we've been training for.

IN CONCLUSION

Bury that horn Brandon! Then get back to us and see if it did anything!!!

Ramble over.
Thanks for reading if you made it this far!

For anybody that thinks biodynamic is a bunch of hooey, I would like to request that you refrain from posting in this thread or in the biodynamic forum.  

Somewhere on the internet is a place for sculptors to talk about sculpting.  I don't think it is good for a farmer to go there and tell them they are stupid because they just don't make enough money.  Or "I'm not convinced" or whatever.  

If you are not into it, you are wasting your time and everybody else's time.  

Thanks Trace! Sorry I generally don't hop on the internet during the weekend. Didn't want to seem unappreciative.

I really enjoyed this thread.

I was not fully aware that there is a biodynamics forum here on Permies.

I looked it up because last week I had an interesting trip to the nearest BD farm here. It is about half an hour away and was founded 30 years ago by the municipality of Munich.
It sits on about 300 acres of land which where once flat and plain fields. About half of it is used for crops.
In the course of the years hedges, trees and orchards have been planted, there are little creeks and greenhouses and it is an absolute paradise.

The members of our environmentalist group got a guided tour (one of their "businesses" apart from producing greens is an educational/informational institution, as well as a kindergarten and a composting site, and of course the farm shop which also sells organic produce from other farms).
They are part of the Demeter association which in Germany has the strictest guidelines concerning organic food production.
Apart from the produce they have a special light cow breed (the soil is former peat bog) where they only sell the males, no milk. They gave up the sheep as the lady who did this quit. They have bees, they do seed selection and similar things.

I was really impressed with the site and the feel.
It is running profitably for many years now which also has to do with the proximity to two important towns with enough affluent customers (the Obergrashof is a company constituted under civil law). The city of Munich is promoting  and fostering the whole project.

I really fell in love with the whole site and wish I had both more money to spend on the excellent products (although I only bought "regular" organic produce which was not harvested on the farm - right now they had mainly cress and chives) and that it was located nearer. I would not make a trip of half an hour for organic shopping when I have a similar shop in the next little town which I visit quite often due to kids school related activities, my other garden plot or simply going there by bike.

Just wanted to share my experience.
If you want to take a look at the site (in German, you can click around to see some pics), here is the link: Obergrashof