• Post Reply Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
  • New Topic
permaculture forums growies critters building homesteading energy monies kitchen purity ungarbage community wilderness fiber arts art permaculture artisans regional education skip experiences global resources cider press projects digital market permies.com pie forums private forums all forums
this forum made possible by our volunteer staff, including ...
master stewards:
  • Nancy Reading
  • Carla Burke
  • r ranson
  • John F Dean
  • paul wheaton
  • Pearl Sutton
stewards:
  • Jay Angler
  • Liv Smith
  • Leigh Tate
master gardeners:
  • Christopher Weeks
  • Timothy Norton
gardeners:
  • thomas rubino
  • Jeremy VanGelder
  • Maieshe Ljin

can i ferment grains after cooking them?

 
Posts: 37
1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
It always says to ferment the whole grain, then cook, but what if I boil the quinoa and then add vinegar and let sit for a couple days???!!
 
steward
Posts: 1897
Location: Coastal Salish Sea area, British Columbia
1057
2
books chicken food preservation pig bike solar wood heat rocket stoves homestead ungarbage
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
i am confused as to why you would want to do this.

All I have ever read is to do it before hand. Now if you are wanting to make wheat vinegar maybe this would be the way to go. I imagine the grains have something which protects them from going off. Now once the grain gets cooked, it basically turns them into very easily digested food for organisms.

Fermenting the grains prior to cooking them, means the seeds are alive/active/protected. and than they are cooked and eaten

Cooking the grains first renders the food cooked, and than it basically needs to be protected from being taken over by any number of organisms.



One reason for fermenting/soaking prior, is it removes some of the phytic acid from the grains. I do not think this would happen after.


Is there a certain dish you are wanting to create that needs to be acidic? Because once the food becomes cooked it will be soft. Than adding the vinegar to it would make it even softer/mushy. I can't think of that as tasty. Another thing is you usually rinse the vinegar soaking water off.  The way you are suggesting i would think it would get soaked in and be hard to remove.



Now if you were wanting to make miso, you could get the right culture and this would require the grains to be cooked before hand.


All i can suggest would be for you to try it as an experiment for all of permies. and than report back here with what you find. :)

Good luck
 
pollinator
Posts: 820
Location: South-central Wisconsin
329
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
You can, yes. It's one way to get rid of any unwanted organisms that might have been on the grain. But be aware that it will change the properties of the grain somewhat.
 
pollinator
Posts: 1234
Location: Chicago
422
dog forest garden fish foraging urban cooking food preservation bike
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Wouldn't fermenting after cooking basically give you sour mash, first step in most grain alcohols?
 
pollinator
Posts: 3827
Location: Massachusetts, Zone:6/7 AHS:4 GDD:3000 Rainfall:48in even Soil:SandyLoam pH6 Flat
555
2
forest garden solar
  • Likes 3
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
sake, and amazake is make by fermenting cooked rice with koji.
Soy sauce is made by fermenting cooked soybean with koji
cooked Barley/Wheat/Rice is also fermented with koji

Tempeh and Onchom by fermenting cooked beans/peanut/coconut/etc

There is also Peuyeum which is fermented cooked cassava.

There is also Tape Ketan too
 
Posts: 2
  • Likes 3
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Hi
I'm interested in this also .. I see hodmedods do a fermented whole grain barley.. it looks interesting but I can't find any info on how it's done...people seem to be eating it direct from the jar without cooking so I'm guessing it's cooked.

 
steward
Posts: 16058
Location: USDA Zone 8a
4272
dog hunting food preservation cooking bee greening the desert
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Daphne Széles wrote:It always says to ferment the whole grain, then cook, but what if I boil the quinoa and then add vinegar and let sit for a couple days???!!



Maybe I am wrong but adding vinegar to the grains will cause them not to ferment.

If you want the grains to ferment after cooking just leave them out for a few days.

Look at them, smell them after a few days do the grains still seem edible?

Then let us know how this experiment went.

I personally would not want to try to ferment after cooking.
 
pollinator
Posts: 458
231
hugelkultur forest garden food preservation medical herbs wood heat
  • Likes 3
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Think about the process of fermentation. You can go two main ways.
1. Allow existing microbes on the grain to ferment. This is a mixed community of microbes (lactobacillus, etc.) so the result may vary with location and time of year. It's whatever is deposited on the grain by nature. The results are usually good if you provide the right conditions and do it for the right amount of time. This is how you make your own levain or sourdough starter.
2. Cook the grain, killing the wild microbes.
    a. If you leave this cooked grain out, bacteria and fungi in the air will settle on the grain and start growing. Usually not great results.
    b. Inoculate the cooked grain immediately with koji or other pure cultures to get a specific flavor and texture. Results are usually good, depending on your skill and sanitation levels during processing.

Adding vinegar to cooked grain is not fermentation. It's bypassing the process of developing acids through fermentation and going right to the end product. There is certainly nothing wrong with using this method and I do it for lots of things to help preserve the food. If you add vinegar to cooked grain and let it sit for a few days the acids may break down some of the grain components but it's already too acidic for lactobacillus to grow. If you want to try it, I'd be interested in the results. It might be good after 2 days then start to go manky, but who knows? So much depends on your process and temperatures, etc.
 
Anne Miller
steward
Posts: 16058
Location: USDA Zone 8a
4272
dog hunting food preservation cooking bee greening the desert
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Thanks, Robin for explaining this in a much better way than I was able to.
 
gardener
Posts: 742
Location: 5,000' 35.24N zone 7b Albuquerque, NM
517
hugelkultur forest garden fungi foraging trees cooking food preservation building solar greening the desert homestead
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I'd like to raise my hand and ask a clarifying question in this very informative thread:
If acetic acid bacteria (vinegar) eats alcohol that is produced by yeasts that eat the natural sugars in the cooked grain, is the fermentation activator that is missing with vinegar some kind of yeast (such as that in the sourdough starter that Robin mentioned) that could be added to the cooked grain? Instead of buying koji or a pure culture, could we just use our sourdough starter culture?
 
Robin Katz
pollinator
Posts: 458
231
hugelkultur forest garden food preservation medical herbs wood heat
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Amy, that's a great question. The sourdough starter has live microbes so when you add food liked cooked grain, you'll get alcohol or acid, depending on the bugs and conditions. I've noticed my homemade sourdough starter can sometimes have an alcohol whiff to it along with the acidic flavor. Maybe my starter is weird but it makes good bread.

It would be really fun to try and make a continuous sour grain culture just like you would do with sourdough starter. It's the same process, but I've never tried it. I'm pretty sure this concept has been used in other places around the world. If anyone has any experience with it, I'd love to hear about it.

Edit: I should clarify about adding vinegar. If the vinegar you are using has live cultures in it, depending on how much you use with the grain, the microbes can start up fermentation again. With both alcohol and acid, the bugs will produce these chemicals until there is so much that it inhibits further growth. Some of the microbes will go dormant and many die at this point. This is why you buy certain strains of yeast for different kinds of brewing alcohol. Some strains have a higher tolerance for alcohol. Pasteur yeast for champagne has a very high tolerance.
 
Mark Turner
Posts: 2
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Yes this was the sort of thing I was thinking of .. but I was thinking of using kefir whey or kombucha as a starter..
But I guess sourdough starter sounds a good way to go.
 
I'm not dead! I feel happy! I'd like to go for a walk! I'll even read a tiny ad:
rocket mass heater risers: materials and design eBook
https://permies.com/w/risers-ebook
reply
    Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
  • New Topic