Jenny Jones wrote:... I think women and men have been scared of getting put in the "friend zone" when actually it's a great place to be. Get comfortable and sometimes all it takes is that day you dress nice or shake your hips a certain way or look dapper AF that the other might see you differently and get the feels. ...
While I believe this is a great dream I encourage you to look at how often it actually happens. What both sides but especially the women who say they want to be friends first. My experience has been that they nearly always end up dating and marry the guy who pursues rather than the guy who has been a friend first.(the only exception has been guys they were friends with since school days.) And there are a number of hard wired reasons why. First women are hard wired to look for the guy by his confidence to pursue. They are going to test this guy instinctively. The friend won't pass because he isn't taking the right actions. He also won't being engaging in the right kinds of touch to released the bonding chemicals to feed her drug addiction.
In order to get out of the friend zone both will not only have to have the reaction to change things but it will have to happen at the same time. If he has the reaction at 3 months and she has the reaction at a year nothing will happen. It has to happen at roughly the same time, it also has to have someone willing to risk to bring it up and it will require both parties to NOT have gotten so comfortable as friends that they are willing to risk it. So for the most part "just friends" is a death sentence to any possible relationship.
Mike Haasl wrote:Speaking for myself only... When I was 18-24 years old I was really thick. A girl could be sending me signals or flirting and I would just sit there and wonder if she was doing that or if I was imagining it. Or not even realize there were signals at all. So I'd just wait and wonder and she'd move on thinking I wasn't interested.
I wonder how many lovely relationships I missed out on by being thick. There might be other fellas like that out there so just telling a guy straight out that you're interested may save you a lot of consternation.
Since Permies is a place for kind, gentle souls, I suspect you are speaking for many here, Mike. To me, it would fit the definition of arrogance to go around just assuming people were expressing an interest in me, unless they actually told me.
I think it is blatantly disrespectful when one person assumes he or she has the right to push responsibility off on someone else they claim is their equal. From my experiences, I have certainly seen times when women have even taken it to such a point that I would call it dishonesty. We call it coyness. What really bothers me so much (beyond the initial disrespect) is that I feel it debases us as a species. I have seen the mating rituals of many animals, and many of them are based around coyness. The male pursues the female, she stops and feigns interest, then runs away. This repeats many times until he "proves" himself. Are we truly no better than this? I thought our cognitive ability and language is what is supposed to separate us from the animals. I don't understand how honesty can be considered such a bad thing.
Aside from the standard canon of flirts (like staring out of the corner of one's eye, looking at a man until he looks back then looking away, picking a piece of lint off of his shirt, etc.), one that really concerns me is just being nice. I've seen many examples where a woman tries to use being nice as a way of convincing a man to ask her out. Doesn't a good person go around trying to be nice to everyone? If a woman pulls out being nice when she wants a guy to ask her out, what will she do if the courtship is successful? One woman's average, everyday nice is another woman's "I want you to ask me out" nice. Is it respectful to expect a man to just magically know which is which for every woman? Do the vast majority of people have so much spare time they just wish someone would come along and waste it on puzzles that could easily be avoided with a little directness and honesty?
The way I see it, if a woman wants to just drop little hints, then it tells me all I need to know to ascertain that she is not right for me. It's not that I don't notice. I expect a woman to be willing to put forth the same amount of effort she expects in return from me in a relationship. I would gladly fall to my knees and shower the hands of a woman with kisses and tears if I believed she deserves it, but I will not jump through hoops like some circus animal at any woman's behest, especially a woman whom I have never dated yet or who has done nothing to deserve any such right. I don't believe I deserve much, but I believe I do deserve better than to be treated like an animal.
I recently went through an unusual situation with a woman. It was never romantic; I knew it was far too fanciful for me to be with her, so I wrote that off before I ever spoke to her. I had a feeling she could be good as a friend and as we spoke she was even more amazing than I had first thought. Eventually, she very frankly asked me if I wanted more than friendship. At fourty years, I can say I have had an experience with my first truly honest woman. Words cannot express how nice it was. It was shocking, to say the least. It brought back to my mind these lines from Byron:
"Oh FAME! — if I e’er took delight in thy praises,
’Twas less for the sake of thy high-sounding phrases,
Than to see the bright eyes of the dear one discover,
She thought that I was not unworthy to love her.
There chiefly I sought thee, there only I found thee;
Her glance was the best of the rays that surround thee;
When it sparkled o’er aught that was bright in my story,
I knew it was love, and I felt it was glory."
Only in my wildest dreams could I imagine someone so amazing think even for one second I was not unworthy to love her. I can say it truly is the definition of glory. It feels exactly the opposite of a woman playing disrespectful games with me.
And he said, "I want to live as an honest man, to get all I deserve, and to give all I can, and to love a young woman whom I don't understand. Your Highness, your ways are very strange."