I'd say that being a man is a lot safer (with some qualifications) than being a woman, and that includes safety from this high level of bullshit. We don't have the fashion element so much, but looking good is still pretty important, but looking big and tough is better. If looking good get's involved, then generally this also equates to narcissism, however. We have our own stuff that we are told to be, but its not so blatant and its not always so destructive as what is done to women. Women do not really notice that a man in North American society is expected to always be strong, and to not show his difficult to deal with emotions unless it is anger. As much as social advances have helped society in general and women in particular in the post WW2 era, the world among men has changed only slightly. This constantly being strong (not just physically, but emotionally) business takes its toll on men since everything else is buried or hidden from society, and comes out in the breakdown of intimate relations. The type of strength that is acceptable in the society of men is one that either puts other people down or props himself up. Strength of character need not be necessary for such man; his character has been undermined by these societal expectations. If a male can successfully navigate the social labyrinth to both put other people down and prop himself up, then all the better. If a man does not do these things, then he is not really manly enough for many social circles, especially amongst men. The interesting thing is that a really well-rounded man, in this society, with these cultural expectations, will be able to do all that and still give the impression that he has a strength of character and the abililty to show true affection and love. If he's able to pull off that neurotic acrobatic act then he's liable to be really really successful in this dysfunctional society.Something that seems a lot of people are unaware of is how much this society (American, can't speak for the others) programs a woman to feel inadequate if she doesn't have a man. From the clothes for sale at the stores that are designed to appeal to men, the music on the radio that tells girls it will take a man to make her a princess, the female politicians who get harassed for not looking like a model, the ads for everything, the other women who openly pity a single woman, the movies that never seem to end with the woman walking off confidently into the sunset alone, it's really serious programming. Start watching it, it's horrifying when you look.
"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world; indeed, it's the only thing that ever has."-Margaret Mead "The only thing worse than being blind, is having sight but no vision."-Helen Keller
Jan White wrote:Bahaha - #10 on that list made me laugh.
...
So maybe that's a good tip for successful conversations - not necessarily to "overshare" - just don't talk about the same shit as everyone else.
Gardens in my mind never need water
Castles in the air never have a wet basement
Well made buildings are fractal -- equally intelligent design at every level of detail.
Bright sparks remind others that they too can dance
What I am looking for is looking for me too!
The wishbone never could replace the backbone.
The wishbone never could replace the backbone.
Sonja Draven wrote:Nicole, your description of introversion is right on!
There is a small handful of people in my life, the core people (close friends and some family), who I don't need a break from in the same way and in fact interacting with them energizes me. They know me well enough we're just being ourselves, we have in jokes, we have history, we have acceptance. When we have a family reunion there could be 10 or 20 of us in the same room and I can handle the noise and chaos because they are all in this layer or the next one.
There is the next level out (friends, more distant family and closer coworkers) which is somewhat draining but not much. We aren't intimate in the same way as the core people but there is genuine affection and shared history there, we've been through the trenches together and talked about our families and dreams - so unless i'm having a really rough day, these are enjoyable people to spend time with.
Coworkers/acquaintances - draining but not like I'm feeding a vampire full-time
Next level - like I'm feeding a vampire full-time
Each layer out becomes more draining to interact with and the farther out they are from the core, the more me/alone time I need to recover from those interactions.
I think this is why I hate dating so much. Every initial interaction feels like you're at the vampire level and you're trying to act as if you're at level 1 or 2.
Gardens in my mind never need water
Castles in the air never have a wet basement
Well made buildings are fractal -- equally intelligent design at every level of detail.
Bright sparks remind others that they too can dance
What I am looking for is looking for me too!
Dale Hodgins wrote:So, it looks like small town Missouri is like the Philippines of the Southern us. The guy with his shit together could do all right.
Here's something that happens with women more than men I think. Taking themselves off the market for a long time, because of something bad that happened.
Gardens in my mind never need water
Castles in the air never have a wet basement
Well made buildings are fractal -- equally intelligent design at every level of detail.
Bright sparks remind others that they too can dance
What I am looking for is looking for me too!
Well, I noticed that if a woman was being specific and detailed in their profile then their decision was made and pretty final. That was my experience. I did try to contact a few of these women, but they would most often be put off or slightly offended with the assumption that I had not fully read their profile.With online dating, he mentioned not contacting certain women because they said they wanted a taller man. I think that's a mistake. I contacted whoever I wanted and let them look at my profile and vital statistics and decide for themselves if something in there was a dealbreaker. Now I know studies have shown that men tend to have a certain type of woman and that's that. Women on the other hand tend to change their type based on their current partner's appearance. My husband is nothing like what I always thought my type was, so don't rule yourself out. Let the other person decide. If your conversation and personality click with the other person I bet a lot of other stuff won't matter so much anymore.
"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world; indeed, it's the only thing that ever has."-Margaret Mead "The only thing worse than being blind, is having sight but no vision."-Helen Keller
Pearl Sutton wrote:
Sonja Draven wrote:Nicole, your description of introversion is right on!
There is a small handful of people in my life, the core people (close friends and some family), who I don't need a break from in the same way and in fact interacting with them energizes me. They know me well enough we're just being ourselves, we have in jokes, we have history, we have acceptance. When we have a family reunion there could be 10 or 20 of us in the same room and I can handle the noise and chaos because they are all in this layer or the next one.
There is the next level out (friends, more distant family and closer coworkers) which is somewhat draining but not much. We aren't intimate in the same way as the core people but there is genuine affection and shared history there, we've been through the trenches together and talked about our families and dreams - so unless i'm having a really rough day, these are enjoyable people to spend time with.
Coworkers/acquaintances - draining but not like I'm feeding a vampire full-time
Next level - like I'm feeding a vampire full-time
Each layer out becomes more draining to interact with and the farther out they are from the core, the more me/alone time I need to recover from those interactions.
I think this is why I hate dating so much. Every initial interaction feels like you're at the vampire level and you're trying to act as if you're at level 1 or 2.
Interesting post, you just explained something about myself to me. In your system, my world is 90% 1 and 4. only a few people are in the inbetweens. I either am totally fine, or totally drained. Not much middle ground. Explains why I do best with very close people or total strangers. Strangers I don't care what they think so I can bounce and be my weird self, as with people I trust they know who I am and aren't scary. So they are all 1's. People who I have met a few times are stressful, because I don't know who to be. And an awful lot of people are in that stressful group. Way more than in the close group. Once someone is not a stranger, they are a stressor until they make it to a 1, then they don't scare me anymore. Which explains why on the Meyers-Brigg test I get 50-50 on the introversion/extroversion scale. It's not that I'm in the middle, it's that I'm both extremes.
Probably also explains a lot of my bad relationships, if I like a guy, he becomes a 1, whether he should be or not... at which point he can hurt me really badly, as I have few walls against people I trust.
Fascinating! Thank you for that insight! I'm going to have to contemplate this.
The wishbone never could replace the backbone.
The wishbone never could replace the backbone.
Standing on the shoulders of giants. Giants with dirt under their nails
Standing on the shoulders of giants. Giants with dirt under their nails
Standing on the shoulders of giants. Giants with dirt under their nails
Roberto, from my experience, a lot of guys lie about their height (whether it's to themselves and others or just to others, I'm not always sure) and it's worse on dating sites.
Ok. I'll definitely keep that in mind if I decide to market myself online again. :)Jan is right that a lot of the physical stuff is flexible for a lot of us women. They aren't as often the deal breakers.
He commented that men marry women hoping they never change, but they do. Women marry men hoping they can change them, but they can't.
First, there is no point meeting men if you don’t know why you are interested in it. Don’t do it because it is the time of your life or because of social pressure. Please don’t do it because you are interested in children, because hopefully the relationship will last longer than that phase. And kids know if that is the only glue… Be honest with your motivation. Are you doing it because you are looking for companionship, physical or financial security, emotional and physical intimacy? What are the main drivers for you?
Doing the work on yourself is the best thing that you can do (do not expect that you will have positive results trying to work on someone else, and do not, ever, put yourself in the place of a counselor within your relationship). Yes, we are all damaged, and no, it's not your job to be a psychologist or counselor. for your mate. You can be wise counsel, but not a counselor. It takes a strong relationship to do it, but suggesting that there are serious issues that need dealing with for the relationship to continue to grow and survive, and then also suggesting that seeking a counselor is really the only way to do that, is a big but very necessary step sometimes. That is all that you can do. It's up to the other person to seek and find the right counsel and to do the work necessary to make your relationship work.A better plan in my opinion is to see what needs to be modified in your own life to attract the type of person that would complement you. If there are emotional scars in your past, it is a TERRIBLE idea to combine the role of counselor and lover. I have been there- not good at all. Find someone who can provide that role separately. And recognize we are 100% damaged goods, none of us make it without scars. Someone looking for an undamaged past is looney. Just the two functions need to be separate.
"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world; indeed, it's the only thing that ever has."-Margaret Mead "The only thing worse than being blind, is having sight but no vision."-Helen Keller
-- Wisdsom pursues me but I run faster.
Mark Tudor wrote:- You aren't going to "fix" or "tame" another person, especially someone from your past. Ever catch yourself saying "they'd be great if they only changed A, B, C, and D... if they love me, they will change", or you meet someone new that has the same issues as someone from your past, and you date the new person thinking "this time it will be different, proving it wasn't my fault the last relationship failed"?
Dating people who all have the same issues is usually an attempt to resolve such a past issue.
Xisca - pics! Dry subtropical Mediterranean - My project
However loud I tell it, this is never a truth, only my experience...
elle sagenev wrote:You'll never be happy with anyone until you are happy with and love yourself.
Xisca - pics! Dry subtropical Mediterranean - My project
However loud I tell it, this is never a truth, only my experience...
Xisca Nicolas wrote:
elle sagenev wrote:You'll never be happy with anyone until you are happy with and love yourself.
This is often said so... but we are a social species, so if we are single, we have to keep the necessary social relationships in any other way than a couple.
I think the main bad reason to be in relationship, is to get our necessary "social engagement" needs...
(check the polyvagal theory from Stephen Porges)
....which unfortunately means that our society fails to provide the necessary, and thus pushes people into relationships to fulfill this healthy need.
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Dale Hodgins wrote:Taking themselves off the market for a long time, because of something bad that happened. I know a woman who had an unhappy breakup when she was 22. She went out on her next date when she was 45. And and now she constantly laments that she never had children and much of life passed her by, while she was licking her wounds.
Xisca - pics! Dry subtropical Mediterranean - My project
However loud I tell it, this is never a truth, only my experience...
Jan White wrote:This situation you describe, along with your feelings about it, and the fact that you keep talking about fear really makes me think that what you're talking about is social anxiety. That's definitely something you can work on, and it sounds like you've come a long way with it.
Introversion isn't about fear. It's an innate trait, and trying to be extroverted when you're an introvert just wouldn't be healthy. You can be introverted and socially anxious (and so many people have social anxiety that it's probably really common), but they're two different things.
Xisca - pics! Dry subtropical Mediterranean - My project
However loud I tell it, this is never a truth, only my experience...
Perhaps. The Dune reference does not go unnoticed, but the idea of a secret society of manipulative kung fu witches in charge of my partner choice does not make me feel like my own heart's desire would be respected. Certainly, it was not the case with Dune's main character.Bene Gesserit training would be very helpful in this profession.
"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world; indeed, it's the only thing that ever has."-Margaret Mead "The only thing worse than being blind, is having sight but no vision."-Helen Keller
You can see with only one eye open, but you'll probably run into things and stub your toe. The big picture matters.
You can see with only one eye open, but you'll probably run into things and stub your toe. The big picture matters.
I actually burst out laughing when I read that! Much better than needing to be absolutely in love with the way the person looks, which is how most people seem to operate. More realistic and saner. Good for you.1) that I can imagine making out with that person without wanting to barf,
It can be very tricky. I don't have kids, but I've co-parented with my partners who have had kids. It's not easy, but it can be done. I think you would do fine as a mother of someone else's children, if you chose to do that; you have your relationship with your father as the foundation for how you know in your heart a child needs to be treated. That's gold. Not saying you should go against your instincts and gut feelings on that, I'd just say, that you have as much foundation for motherhood right there then many who take the plunge.I also mostly rule out guys with kids, for a few reasons. I don't have any and I don't know what it's like to be a parent, which makes me feel like a non-peer to parents.
I Just need to say, from my perspective, you should focus on this. Get yourself solid about this, and you will have a foundation that you can stand on. You will gain strength from knowing that you are in control of yourself and that will correlate to control in the situations that you are in.I also need to learn to SLOW THE F*** DOWN and not get super lovey dovey attached to someone within 2 hours of meeting them.
I also need to learn how to open up to people without handing them all my puppet strings. Right now it's kind of system lock-down, nothing's getting in.
"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world; indeed, it's the only thing that ever has."-Margaret Mead "The only thing worse than being blind, is having sight but no vision."-Helen Keller
I also need to learn to SLOW THE F*** DOWN and not get super lovey dovey attached to someone within 2 hours of meeting them.
Dale Hodgins wrote:Except when I was married 25 years ago, I have always been the one with the least invested in the relationship, and I've enjoyed the power that that equals. The problem with that is that you end up listening to a lot of complaints, when they figure that out. Many women will say that they are happy keeping it light. But give that a year or two, and it often changes. Then you deal with anger and accusation.
Come join me at www.peacockorchard.com
Sarah Koster wrote: I guess it's easier to see and read someone's facial expression if they're not towering above me like the clouds, and I'm so bad at reading social cues and body language that every little bit of help counts.
Ages 7-15 literally no one touched me, because I didn't let people hug me etc. Age 15 I was clinically psychotic, maybe because no one touched me?
My only early childhood trauma was almost dying from asthma a few times
get super lovey dovey attached to someone within 2 hours of meeting them.
I think my own social anxiety is most intense in situations where ritual behavior rather than creative interaction are relied on, where the particular ritual behaviors that will be required is unpredictable.
In America we have a mixture of cultures and everybody has their own idea of what's the right or wrong way to act, what to say etc. in a given situation.
when you don't know what you're up against, or what ritual phrases and gestures are gonna be directed towards you from whom, it's hard to be prepared, especially when there's not a clear formula to follow.
Xisca - pics! Dry subtropical Mediterranean - My project
However loud I tell it, this is never a truth, only my experience...
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