How to meet men: Things every young lady might want to know

I had a look at what Roberto said about cigarettes. On an online dating site, I chose to go in an entirely different direction.

I said, I'm not interested in cigarettes or those who smoke them, for many reasons that go beyond the air pollution. Not interested in entering the social, socioeconomic or gene pool that would lead to such a decision.

I actually got a few positive responses. I took it down after a while, because it was just an experiment. The responses were sort of a high-five from like-minded individuals. So it didn't prove to be a way to find a suitable mate.

Bethany, I think online dating works great when you put some work into it. I ignored 95% of the messages I got from guys cause they were all, "wanna coffee?" "hey. S'up?" types. I went through profiles and contacted people who interested me. You have to balance your time input with the quality of your messages. One guy I contacted just got a quick jokey note complimenting him on his use of semicolons. He responded back with a jokey note of his own, we nerded out over punctuation for a bit, started emailing multiple times a day, met up for bananagrams, and ended up becoming very good friends.

I contacted my now husband because he said he liked metal and classical music which I thought was an interesting combo (he's since told me it's actually very common) and because he said one of his favourite things was a stretch of new asphalt which sounded genuine and like there might be a story there. There must have been something else there cause it sounds pretty light now that I've written it down :)

People who couldn't be bothered to read my profile and ask questions about it or make comments about my pictures didn't warrant any time or energy spent on them. Unfortunately the number of those people can be discouraging which is why I think you need to put the time in, look for the guys with something real in their profiles and contact them yourself.
I wound up meeting a few guys I really liked and one i ended up loving despite (maybe because of) being super picky about who I even bothered to talk to

Hike the Pacific Crest Trail or go work in outdoor education. I met my wife on the PCT, where she had her pick of the litter as 90% of the hikers were men. Even as a straight guy, Its hard not to notice when sizing up “the competition” how disproportionately handsome, kind and intelligent dudes tend to be in situations like long distance hikes (voluntary vagrancy, happily homeless and proactively practicing poverty) and teaching outdoor ed (almost no pay or professional respect but lots of deeper rewards). I theorize this is because, in order for a guy to have the stones to choose these paths in life, he has to have the self confidence that he’s got something to offer other than money or status. You also tend to find people seeking self realization and willing to work for it.
An additional benefit for ladies in outdoor ed is how middle managers tend to be women who act like female Harvey Weinsteins in their hiring of mostly people they are attracted to.

Roberto, I would like to invite you to have a "cup of something" with me here in TN.  I bet our conversations would be very interesting.  

I thought your advice was right on.  

I am in TN, so it is a bit of a hike for the time spent together.

Be well, again, thanks for the terrific advice.

Natalie  

I read the one for meeting girls... more poignant for me. I read the one for meeting men... I think that's called reconnaissance, as I am not interested in dudes :)

Maybe my $0.02 will help some fella and dame.

First, the concept of "Finding a good man" is frequent, and elicits much advice and sympathy whereas the concept of "finding a good woman" usually elicits some condemnation - accusatory questions regarding "what do YOU mean by good?". It would be good to address THAT.
Many men will hold a simplistic view of a woman - and many women will hold a simplistic view of a man - both making explicit and implicit claims to their own complexity, or "simplicity", with the ultimate result of no-one meeting their vague calculus of just what exactly constitutes "good". Perfect method of unrealistic expectations leading to a readiness to "fall" for the "one who says the right things". Love is not "falling" - it is climbing.

You can't con an honest man. Seriously - all con-jobs rely on the mark having some desire that can be magnified; absent that variable, cons don't work. Falling for the wrong one means walking blindly. I've done it. You probably have too.

Second, I would like to point out the "folksy" wisdom that gives me unending discomfort: YOU (I) attract. You (I) date where you're (I'm) at, you (I) attract what you are (rather, what compliments what you are). This is the rub.

Want a "good" man? Only "good" women get them. Want "respect"? Be respectABLE - demands are funny as they show the demander's mind, and are RARELY met. Want "real"? Honesty? Compassion? Stability (as though that isn't a myth for the fearful insurance customer)? Consistency? The mother of all factors: Self-Aware?

"He has to MAKE me laugh." - that is the most common thing I see on lists. Tell me, are you a shrew who demands the world entertain you - then complains that it frequently fails? That certainly sounds harsh (honesty does that) but - does your R.B.F. label you a person who frequently scowls? Yes, making a face long enough DOES stick - and the older you are, the easier it is to see your average mood by the lines well-worn.

Unless you paint yourself to look completely different than you are. Does that have an effect on the "reality" of the men you attract? Again, one praises honesty as long as it isn't honest. Lipstick, blush, and eyeshadow have biological components - scientifically speaking, wearing those three things tells the world that you're horny (blood rushes to the face, changing the color of the skin, lips, and eyes). Is this the message you intend to send? Yes? Fine. No? ....

A man who will not be happy, cannot be happy, and it is the result of his own mode. Ditto for women. The real pain in the ass is that "happiness" is not a goal - it's a feeling just like saddness or hunger - and is a result of uncoontrollable pressures. Being GENUINE however....

A "tough" person has to be tough, a "strong" person has to be strong, and a "happy" person has to be happy - EVEN WHEN REALITY ELICITS SOMETHING ELSE. A genuine person is free to experience all of the emotions - as they come - and TO LET THEM PASS when they are done.

In any case, I cannot speak for "men" as that would be to presume upon the peculiarities of nearly 4.5 Billion human beings. For me? Here is what I find attractive (enough to risk the pain of rejection, and the threat of a psychotic #METOO overreaction):

Femininity. Me man, you woman. If you're trying to convince me that you are me, I don't really have a need for you. I am masculine, this is my wheel-house, and it is my duty - you are feminine, it is your wheel-house, and yes, it is a duty.

Calm. How important is it? Does it need to be done RIGHT NOW?!?! Does it warrant an emotional outburst or lots of words, over and over and over? Probably not. This shows PERSPECTIVE.

Thoughtfulness. Feelings are externally indexed, reacting from them is easy and no-one ever had to learn how to react. Learning how to feel, and think - simultaneously... that's freaking hard, but it shows - and it shows character.

Loyalty. What? You don't like the thought of betrayal and excuses? Neither. Do. Men. (all of them). A woman with constant excuses or "reasons" for their behaviour is NOT attractive - she's dangerous. If you "want" me for my job - you'll leave when the job does, and so I find I have no interest. I am not a paycheck - like you making dinner out of love and genuine desire (feminine nurturing), I provide out of love and genuine desire (masculine provision). Sometimes you can't make the home warm, sometimes I can't pay the bills. That's life, and Loyalty says that PARTNER exists FOR THE BAD TIMES. We don't really "need" when everything is great do we? Loyalty to death - anything less is betrayal waiting to happen. Ride-Or-Die. It's the sine quo non of everything that matters.

No-List. A list of demands is a list of expectations - resentments - disappointment. Like the current list? No. If your list is "general character traits" then awesome! If your list is more tangible... what will happen if my 6'1" becomes 3'6" due to a wheelchair? Expect someone with no flaws to over-look all of yours? Like to talk about people who aren't around - because they "are" or "aren't"? Reality does not care about your desire, and will walk rough-shod over your feelings. What you "want" will forever be a list of what you don't have. This means genuine and adaptable - with strong loyalty.

Offer what is asked. Is trust earned? Not remotely; it is given and then either validated or betrayed. Is forgiveness earned? Good God No! Is sex a bargaining chip - to offer when pleased and withhold when miffed? Is "respect" given and taken based on the week's events? Ever say "nothing" when asked what's wrong - but demand "honesty" of your man? Yes, that is lying. Don't lie.

I could go on - but you get the idea. In a few words: A beautiful soul. It shows, better than L'Oreal. It makes a woman APPROACHABLE to me; it makes her face shine, and her eyes to provoke me to conquer a city if she wished it.

That's actually the point here - I am terrified of the power in my chest that appears should I fall in love (any man who isn't doesn't know himself). That's what I offer, and that's what I risk. That's what masculinity means as regarding romance. Do you believe that is a small thing - that it can be demanded and discarded on a whim? Then you are not for me. What do you offer in return?

What do you offer in return?

Yes, I can see ALL of this just by how a woman responds to my smile from across the smoke-deck.

Oh! Great-hips, long curls, and fingers like spiders-on-a-ball-of-yarn doesn't hurt... (like square shoulders and cut-up forearms do for women... yeah, I know about that.) - but for me, it's mostly in the honest smiling eyes.

Be what matches what you want.

At least, that's what would attract me.

----->

Here are the ice-breakers I have considered, but have yet to try (All of them begin with 'Hi! I'm Spencer...') - ladies should comment on them:

"I was looking in my phone, and I didn't see your number - I don't see how this relationship is going to work if you don't give me your number"
"Why aren't you my girlfriend?" (I really want to try this one - it seems fun)
"Are you single?"
"I have nothing clever to say which, incidentally, strikes me as a clever way to say that I want to talk to you, but feel awkward in the attempt."
"You're pretty, wanna complicate my life?"
"I'm weird; if you're not, this is never going to work."
"IT'S TUESDAY!" (on any day other than Tuesday)
".... well, I said my name... I am relying on you to carry the conversation until I'm certain you aren't going to bite my head off or something..."
"I like plants and fuzzy creatures, but I try not to make a thing of it."
"It takes more than a pretty face to get into my pants." (probably not the best, but it would shit-test her really quick!)
"Are you interested in entering into negotiations for a lifetime contract?" (That one is pretty bad but, girls are weird so....)
"I'm scared of what you could do to me but, risk equals reward..." (honest, but I don't like it)
"You're pretty... that's it... that's all I've got."

Vote for the one that will cause YOU to meet your man.

Pearl Sutton wrote:  Add to our pouch of tricks, maybe? I'd rather have a pouch, a pretty one please.... :)

What's in your pouch of tricks? Both literally and figuratively. Literally, for my life in general (I'm not even really looking for a man right now, only sometimes wish I could) I always have business cards on me that have my name and email address at least, phone number is optional, if you are using them for dating, I'd vote email only, easy to give your number over email. If I were someplace like at a laser show and was interested in a shy guy, I'd come up with a question he can't answer, and has to think on, or find out, and offer him a card "When you find out, email me, I'd love to know!" Gives him a good excuse to make the next move. Also if he asks a friend "I met this girl, and she said this and gave me her email, do you think she's interested in me?" his friend will know to say "pretty good chance, yes. DO IT!" If his friend has any social skills, he'll know that's  a good sign. And as far as deal breakers go, I had a guy I told that to say "oh I can't do computers or email at all." oooh... wow. I type like I breathe. Probably a deal breaker. If he really interested me, a good excuse to see him again "Really? I'd be happy to teach you!"

Figuratively in my pouch is the trick of asking questions. I'll ask anyone anything. I find it an amusing way to talk to strangers. In line at the grocery store, show one of the magazines to the lady behind me in line "would you wear this outfit in public? I think I'd get arrested for showing too much flab!" That gets fun. Because I'm in the habit of it, it's easier to use on a guy. I think it was on the other thread, I said I ask guys when I'm at Habitat for Humanity or second hand stores "What is this thing?" I learn all kinds of interesting stuff, and have fun conversations, that are easy to extend or cut short.

What's in your pouch?

Spencer Miles wrote: Here are the ice-breakers I have considered, but have yet to try (All of them begin with 'Hi! I'm Spencer...') - ladies should comment on them:

Here is my votes and comments:

"Why aren't you my girlfriend?" (I really want to try this one - it seems fun)

Unless you are talking to someone like me who has problems about answering the question that was asked, not the intent. You might not like my answer.  Might be a hazardous one.

"I have nothing clever to say which, incidentally, strikes me as a clever way to say that I want to talk to you, but feel awkward in the attempt."

I'd give you half point for that. you are trying, but is that really your best? And what am I supposed to respond? "I'm sorry you can't think of anything clever." seems rude. I'd be more into "I had a clever line ready, but you smiled at me, and I forgot it, so pretend this is it!"

"You're pretty, wanna complicate my life?"

Watch out for a girl who replies yes, this could get weirder than you want. :)

"I'm weird; if you're not, this is never going to work."

A bit too abrupt I'd think. Too many really easy rejections. and someone like me would interrogate you about how you are weird.

"IT'S TUESDAY!" (on any day other than Tuesday)

Easy to misunderstand. I'd be amused by "it's Tuesday! I had a dream I'd meet the girl of my dreams on Tuesday, are you her?"

"It takes more than a pretty face to get into my pants." (probably not the best, but it would shit-test her really quick!)

ooh that's risky. do you want to know how she reacts to shit that soon? I can see getting slapped for that one. Or just bitchslapped down HARD.



I think I'd find all of these too clever, too rehearsed, too obviously a line. Any guy that throws obvious lines like that is in the habit of it, I don't feel special, I feel like a fish getting too close to random net that doesn't care what it scoops out. Could be just me. I'm probably old enough to be at least your mother. I am not 17. I might be too cynical. Tailor it to the lady, instead of rehearse it in the mirror. I'd rather hear "that sweater matches your eyes!" than any of the lines you said. Means you LOOKED at me before you got clever. Means you thought about it before you pulled out line #318 that you have used 6 times in the last month.
That's my two cents :)

I liked your post, it was well thought out :) The list might need work. And reading your want list, I'm nowhere near it even if I wanted to be, so consider that too if you didn't like my answers. They were just honest feedback. I'm already not your target market. Good ideas, hope you find the lady with the spider fingers!

Pearl - It is awesome that you got the impression that I actually try pick-up lines! I'm 35 and in Grad-School. Isolating... and I frequently see "women" (when I was 20, I thought I knew stuff too...) who don't get passed the reaction to my smile so... it's all academic (a pun). Last time I actually used a line was when I was 17 - it worked, and I messed it up by being 17.

In any case, thanks for the intel! Most of my "lines" are conjured with the idea of saying "I think you're pretty, but that would be ruined if you're a haggus, so... 1. are you single, 2. do you think I'm attractive and 3. are you a haggus?" - but not actually saying it 'cause, folk don't respond well to candor out-the-gate.

You seem friendly! If you really are "old enough to be [my] mother" then... do you have a daughter?

eheheheheh....

Besides, it isn't the sweater, it's what's underneath the swea... oh... wait, no, that's fine just... not the WHOLE point (like 25% of it)

:D

Spencer Miles wrote:I read the one for meeting girls... more poignant for me. I read the one for meeting men... I think that's called reconnaissance, as I am not interested in dudes :)

Maybe my $0.02 will help some fella and dame.

First, the concept of "Finding a good man" is frequent, and elicits much advice and sympathy whereas the concept of "finding a good woman" usually elicits some condemnation - accusatory questions regarding "what do YOU mean by good?". It would be good to address THAT.
Many men will hold a simplistic view of a woman - and many women will hold a simplistic view of a man - both making explicit and implicit claims to their own complexity, or "simplicity", with the ultimate result of no-one meeting their vague calculus of just what exactly constitutes "good". Perfect method of unrealistic expectations leading to a readiness to "fall" for the "one who says the right things". Love is not "falling" - it is climbing.

You can't con an honest man. Seriously - all con-jobs rely on the mark having some desire that can be magnified; absent that variable, cons don't work. Falling for the wrong one means walking blindly. I've done it. You probably have too.

Second, I would like to point out the "folksy" wisdom that gives me unending discomfort: YOU (I) attract. You (I) date where you're (I'm) at, you (I) attract what you are (rather, what compliments what you are). This is the rub.

Want a "good" man? Only "good" women get them. Want "respect"? Be respectABLE - demands are funny as they show the demander's mind, and are RARELY met. Want "real"? Honesty? Compassion? Stability (as though that isn't a myth for the fearful insurance customer)? Consistency? The mother of all factors: Self-Aware?

"He has to MAKE me laugh." - that is the most common thing I see on lists. Tell me, are you a shrew who demands the world entertain you - then complains that it frequently fails? That certainly sounds harsh (honesty does that) but - does your R.B.F. label you a person who frequently scowls? Yes, making a face long enough DOES stick - and the older you are, the easier it is to see your average mood by the lines well-worn.

Unless you paint yourself to look completely different than you are. Does that have an effect on the "reality" of the men you attract? Again, one praises honesty as long as it isn't honest. Lipstick, blush, and eyeshadow have biological components - scientifically speaking, wearing those three things tells the world that you're horny (blood rushes to the face, changing the color of the skin, lips, and eyes). Is this the message you intend to send? Yes? Fine. No? ....

A man who will not be happy, cannot be happy, and it is the result of his own mode. Ditto for women. The real pain in the ass is that "happiness" is not a goal - it's a feeling just like saddness or hunger - and is a result of uncoontrollable pressures. Being GENUINE however....

A "tough" person has to be tough, a "strong" person has to be strong, and a "happy" person has to be happy - EVEN WHEN REALITY ELICITS SOMETHING ELSE. A genuine person is free to experience all of the emotions - as they come - and TO LET THEM PASS when they are done.

In any case, I cannot speak for "men" as that would be to presume upon the peculiarities of nearly 4.5 Billion human beings. For me? Here is what I find attractive (enough to risk the pain of rejection, and the threat of a psychotic #METOO overreaction):

Femininity. Me man, you woman. If you're trying to convince me that you are me, I don't really have a need for you. I am masculine, this is my wheel-house, and it is my duty - you are feminine, it is your wheel-house, and yes, it is a duty.

Calm. How important is it? Does it need to be done RIGHT NOW?!?! Does it warrant an emotional outburst or lots of words, over and over and over? Probably not. This shows PERSPECTIVE.

Thoughtfulness. Feelings are externally indexed, reacting from them is easy and no-one ever had to learn how to react. Learning how to feel, and think - simultaneously... that's freaking hard, but it shows - and it shows character.

Loyalty. What? You don't like the thought of betrayal and excuses? Neither. Do. Men. (all of them). A woman with constant excuses or "reasons" for their behaviour is NOT attractive - she's dangerous. If you "want" me for my job - you'll leave when the job does, and so I find I have no interest. I am not a paycheck - like you making dinner out of love and genuine desire (feminine nurturing), I provide out of love and genuine desire (masculine provision). Sometimes you can't make the home warm, sometimes I can't pay the bills. That's life, and Loyalty says that PARTNER exists FOR THE BAD TIMES. We don't really "need" when everything is great do we? Loyalty to death - anything less is betrayal waiting to happen. Ride-Or-Die. It's the sine quo non of everything that matters.

No-List. A list of demands is a list of expectations - resentments - disappointment. Like the current list? No. If your list is "general character traits" then awesome! If your list is more tangible... what will happen if my 6'1" becomes 3'6" due to a wheelchair? Expect someone with no flaws to over-look all of yours? Like to talk about people who aren't around - because they "are" or "aren't"? Reality does not care about your desire, and will walk rough-shod over your feelings. What you "want" will forever be a list of what you don't have. This means genuine and adaptable - with strong loyalty.

Offer what is asked. Is trust earned? Not remotely; it is given and then either validated or betrayed. Is forgiveness earned? Good God No! Is sex a bargaining chip - to offer when pleased and withhold when miffed? Is "respect" given and taken based on the week's events? Ever say "nothing" when asked what's wrong - but demand "honesty" of your man? Yes, that is lying. Don't lie.

I could go on - but you get the idea. In a few words: A beautiful soul. It shows, better than L'Oreal. It makes a woman APPROACHABLE to me; it makes her face shine, and her eyes to provoke me to conquer a city if she wished it.

That's actually the point here - I am terrified of the power in my chest that appears should I fall in love (any man who isn't doesn't know himself). That's what I offer, and that's what I risk. That's what masculinity means as regarding romance. Do you believe that is a small thing - that it can be demanded and discarded on a whim? Then you are not for me. What do you offer in return?

What do you offer in return?

Yes, I can see ALL of this just by how a woman responds to my smile from across the smoke-deck.

Oh! Great-hips, long curls, and fingers like spiders-on-a-ball-of-yarn doesn't hurt... (like square shoulders and cut-up forearms do for women... yeah, I know about that.) - but for me, it's mostly in the honest smiling eyes.

Be what matches what you want.

At least, that's what would attract me.

----->

Here are the ice-breakers I have considered, but have yet to try (All of them begin with 'Hi! I'm Spencer...') - ladies should comment on them:

"I was looking in my phone, and I didn't see your number - I don't see how this relationship is going to work if you don't give me your number"
"Why aren't you my girlfriend?" (I really want to try this one - it seems fun)
"Are you single?"
"I have nothing clever to say which, incidentally, strikes me as a clever way to say that I want to talk to you, but feel awkward in the attempt."
"You're pretty, wanna complicate my life?"
"I'm weird; if you're not, this is never going to work."
"IT'S TUESDAY!" (on any day other than Tuesday)
".... well, I said my name... I am relying on you to carry the conversation until I'm certain you aren't going to bite my head off or something..."
"I like plants and fuzzy creatures, but I try not to make a thing of it."
"It takes more than a pretty face to get into my pants." (probably not the best, but it would shit-test her really quick!)
"Are you interested in entering into negotiations for a lifetime contract?" (That one is pretty bad but, girls are weird so....)
"I'm scared of what you could do to me but, risk equals reward..." (honest, but I don't like it)
"You're pretty... that's it... that's all I've got."

Vote for the one that will cause YOU to meet your man.

^
Yes. If any guy approached me with a tenth of this kind of genuineness and insight, I would totally talk to him even as mortified and emotionally stunted as I am.
Maybe we also need a joint "how to be dateable" thread. To teach me how to not be a jerk.
So far my standoffishness wards off all the nice people and does nothing to protect me from scary lock-you-in-the-attic sorts.
The guys who gripe about "nice guys finish last" are lock-you-in-the-attic sorts trying to guilt/manipulate women for sex 'cause they feel entitled and are mad they don't get any.
"Normal" guys definitely come off to me as lacking the ability to empathize with women. Communication like this proves otherwise.
I think we are all looking for someone-with-whom-my-soul-can-interface-via-talky-mouthparts, prerequisite to physical stuff.
I think mother bears are pretty feminine.

I like
"I have nothing clever to say which, incidentally, strikes me as a clever way to say that I want to talk to you, but feel awkward in the attempt."
because it disarms the mutual awkwardness by addressing it directly. If a guy becomes vulnerable towards me, I'm not going to attack him even if I don't like him. If he says something like "Hey sexy" I automatically go into self-defense mode and try to kick his bloated ego in the ego nuts. Because obviously he's a rapist with a closet full of dead babies. Duh.

Make sure that your hand where a ring would go, is visible. And don't have so many other rings that it might look like a wedding ring, to confuse the guy. The decent ones aren't going to pursue someone who looks like they're wearing a wedding ring. I've known single women who wear rings all over that hand and finger. And they say they're not trying to use it as repellent, they just like rings.

Dale Hodgins wrote:Make sure that your hand where a ring would go, is visible. And don't have so many other rings that it might look like a wedding ring, to confuse the guy. The decent ones aren't going to pursue someone who looks like they're wearing a wedding ring. I've known single women who wear rings all over that hand and finger. And they say they're not trying to use it as repellent, they just like rings.

I represent that remark! As my weight shifts I move the rings I like to wear to the fingers they fit on. But none of my rings look like classic wedding rings.

Spencer Miles wrote:Pearl - It is awesome that you got the impression that I actually try pick-up lines! I'm 35 and in Grad-School. Isolating... and I frequently see "women" (when I was 20, I thought I knew stuff too...) who don't get passed the reaction to my smile so... it's all academic (a pun). Last time I actually used a line was when I was 17 - it worked, and I messed it up by being 17.

In any case, thanks for the intel! Most of my "lines" are conjured with the idea of saying "I think you're pretty, but that would be ruined if you're a haggus, so... 1. are you single, 2. do you think I'm attractive and 3. are you a haggus?" - but not actually saying it 'cause, folk don't respond well to candor out-the-gate.

You seem friendly! If you really are "old enough to be [my] mother" then... do you have a daughter?

Better line, and yeah, I am. But I don't have a daughter :)

Besides, it isn't the sweater, it's what's underneath the swea... oh... wait, no, that's fine just... not the WHOLE point (like 25% of it)

:D

Aaaand that's the kind of comment that sounds 17 :)
And how do you tell if she is a haggus? (interesting word.) Apparently you are screening for looks before that point, since you used the word pretty first, so what are you screening for next?
And I assume you don't even try these on any woman who isn't pretty, by who's standards? Women with perfect features hear better lines, women who aren't as pretty tend to learn to be more cynical :) So are you looking for the desperate in between ones, who have more hope? Inquiring minds wonder things... :)

I will answer in 2 posts, about my last relationship, and my new one...

Pearl Sutton wrote:I don't have a clue. I guarantee it. I have been in more bad relationships than I care to think about.

Any wise women out there who want to help out the lost ladies?

About this point.... Others mentioned it too. It has nothing to do with a father being so and so, because it is not just about the father, it is about many other things that happened to you. Let's face it: who is a magnet for us, and who are we a magnet for! This has nothing to do with "the head" and doing a good choice.

i give you one example: my sister in law, with a father who was drinking and then divorces from the mom. She married my brother and thought "great, a familly with no alcohol". I guarantee, zero risk in all the familly. But my brother did not listen to her when he decided to buy a bar as business!
And she AGAIN found herself in problems due to alcohol!

Our inner system  - our heat, our guts - will just look for the situations  that look like what we lived before, because these situations blocked us, and we want to do something to go back to a better fluidity of our life energy. We will pick up who we need at such a deep level that our mind will not see it. If we both are ready to work at this level, by using somatic methods and not cortex/talk/mind/pure logic, then incredible things will come out.

So i have ONLY ONE criteria: real capacity and dedication to become ones better self!
A lot of people want this in theory. But they run away in fear - or get angry -  when it comes to really do it. Because it is not easy and very activating and needs awareness and consciousness.

This is what happened to me like 4 years ago or so.... After being 40 day into a new relationship that was very promising about doing some permies stuff and a guy knowing the traditonal way of life in a place I was not born in, catastrophe - yes it happened quick. I was threatened by another guy who was under cocain, and got no help, uncovering the hidden trauma... i was with a guy with a father I knew had been more than abusive, and he looked well recovered ....exceptfor this point: "I am a too small child to defend my mom". This day I saw the frightened child, and the shock he got ruined our relationship, however hard I tried. I saw his inner child this day, but I saw that he was stuck in his incapacity to give support to a woman much after.

So what did I do? Well, it took me 2 years to give up, but what did I learn?

i asked myself "What is the common point between him and exs?" The main obvious common point was about some guilt about protecting their mother. Then I asked myself "Is it relevant to me as well, though I dont think so? What is there and I do not see it?" My father is super nice and my parents never quarelled. Actually there was the reverse, my mom was guilty because her work when she was pregnant gave me some damage because she manipulated alcohol, and not the one that is drinkable.... also propanol and isopropanol etc. Then i started to see I had to protect my mom, by not telling my familly when I had some health issue! To protect my mom from feeling guilty...

So my 1st advise is to work on your past physiological traumas, even for the ones that are said psychological, they always have a somatic part.
You will see them by comparing the persons you are attracted by, friends or partners, and also who like you etc, all relationships. You can also use what attracks you as a hobby or job. This will reveal to you the somatic part that is under all you like. We are not so free about what we like! Why do I like what and who I like is a basic question to know yourself! Basically, there are stuck energy in 2 forms: the famous fight and flight. Running, travelling, are about escaping. Aikido and boxing are about fighting. Climbing is about past falls, or even your mother when she was pregnant of you... (yes I have seen it and when I asked the guy to ask his mother about it, he said he already knew the answer and I was right about my guess). Actually, as in my own example, it took most of my adult life to figure out that I was picking up guys with a very strange and difficult to see common point, and that I could see myself and a point I needed to free myself from.

I am myself trained in somatic experiencing and it helped me to see all this. I have just discovered another similar somatic method, and you can have a look at the testimonial of this 46 y.o. woman https://www.attachmentrepairmodel.com/testimonials/

Somatic therapies are for me real perma-therapies! I have really found the same principles as in permaculture.

Interesting point. In my this-can-never-happen-again efforts, I realized that the common point between all the guys who I had horrible relationships was, their mother abused, neglected and/or abandoned them. I tend to only be interested in extremely emotionally intense relationships where the man initiates. But when they're doing this because they have mommy issues and are terrified of being abandoned, there's problems. I believe the reason I don't see the red flags is, I was "raised" by parents who were neglected and abused by their mothers/my grandmothers. I was raised to compensate for mommy issues of my then alcoholic parents. So I make every effort to smooth things over, make things work, and de-escalate anxiety and conflict. It seems that the healthier females pick their mate, and aren't picked by him, so that may be a problem I need to address as well, my complacency and overwillingness to humor people. I don't want to be a minion/gopher/retainer/familiar but it seems to be the role I fall into most easily, and lemme tell you, the people who want that in a romantic partners are evil bastards. THEY only want to be served and obeyed and admired, but I eventually get disillusioned and "rebellious" which is when the locking-in-attics and physical abuse seem to start.
I wanna know how they can spot me so easily. I mean there aren't really that many dudes who were abandoned by their mother, are there? And they don't all turn into paranoid, possessive woman-beaters, right? I mean like why? wwwwhhhhhhyyyyyyy i just want to go out with someone who likes trees but doesn't want to keep me under lock and key. it shouldn't be this hard.

Besides, it isn't the sweater, it's what's underneath the swea... oh... wait, no, that's fine just... not the WHOLE point (like 25% of it)

:D

Aaaand that's the kind of comment that sounds 17 :)
And how do you tell if she is a haggus? (interesting word.) Apparently you are screening for looks before that point, since you used the word pretty first, so what are you screening for next?
And I assume you don't even try these on any woman who isn't pretty, by who's standards? Women with perfect features hear better lines, women who aren't as pretty tend to learn to be more cynical :) So are you looking for the desperate in between ones, who have more hope? Inquiring minds wonder things... :)

Funny how "boyish" is one of those words that means both bad and good... I get pretty grossed out when women make lude remarks at me (they do, and it is rather foul), but it's nice to know that someone finds me do-able... balance includes things that are impolite, as well as things that aren't. Romance without physical attraction is a non-starter. No, that doesn't make it superficial, but like I said, it's about 25% of meeting someone (provided it's a balanced meeting). I am quixotic and naive, but not enough to think that it will work when our animal bits have to be ignored... suppression isn't healthy.

It is fair to wonder what I mean by "pretty". What I mean is those things that strike me as pretty - not sexy, but rather pretty. Still have yet to meet a woman who functionally understands the difference. Sexy is obvious and, unless it is in very narrowly defined context, for me it is NOT attractive - kinda gross and really sad. Sure, I see "sexy" girls all the time (I attend university) but I am not attracted to them - at least, not the part of me that continues to be relevant for any measurable length of time. Pretty provokes me to love and to protect, to endeavour to make the pretty one smile, because it's pretty. "Sexy" is provacative, but very transient and supremely useless (unless other foundations have been lain, and it is just for me... then it is something else entirely).

If a woman tries to be "sexy" all the time, it is sad; if she tries to be sexy just-for-me... it makes me feel valuable and cherished. Yeah - I want to feel that just as much as women do. Thing is, "trying" to be sexy is usually a turn-off.

I have heard many women talk (angrily) about "blue-eyed blondes with big boobs" and, while some guys like that sort of thing, I. Do. Not. I am also not attracted to spindly thighs exposed by pants-that-were-torn-new (and CAN'T be comfortable). I do not like the appearance of a woman who looks as though it took her an hour to look that way, but is trying to make it look like she didn't take an hour to look that way. Some women walk like they are on their way to murder someone - not pretty, and usually a symptom of shoes that don't fit right, cost too much, and probably aren't comfortable. Many women try as hard as they can to be the object of a leer - then resent the leers. That's reasonable.... not pretty.

Notice the pattern? Pretty girls don't know they're pretty, and don't try to make up for it. It's awesome when I see one - and it isn't sex that crosses my mind when I do. It's love - not that I fall in love, but rather that I'd like to try. When she looks like it would matter if I adored her - I am more inclined to adore her.

I am also really put-off by women who make derogatory remarks about themselves, with an expectant look for negation from me. I am attracted to women who can joke about their appearance, but there is a point when it gets too... solicitous. I despise being solicited in that manner.

The full-matter of it is Genuine. I most certainly have a preference of taste - but it isn't a dogma, just a would-be-nice-fantasy - and only for me if she is so inclined (and comes by it naturally). I've seen a few women who look like what I'd draw if I could but, that amounts to essentially nothing. There is no accounting for taste, and it would be little more than an awesome bonus.

A pretty girl in my eyes shines when I see her - when a girl shines in my eyes, she is pretty. It really doesn't matter what she looks like.

Ha! Super vague and complicated - but, sooooo awesome :)

Anywho... a haggus is one who acts haggy... usually shown by biting sarcasm, off-handed put-downs, gossip, frequent behavioural-belief commentary, demands, ingratitude, disloyalty, dishonesty, revolt-for-the-sake-of-rebellion, and mostly a large gulf between words and deeds....

Apparently, haggus is also some kind of weird British food...

Xisca Nicolas: Words of wisdom! This is why I'm not looking right now. I have stuff to fix in myself first.
That link is broken, check it?

I am now just starting a new relationship, and I am at the same time curious and afraid about how much I have changed and what will happen.

As it has been written a lot in this topic about "criteria", I will say up to what point that can be absolutely useless... Non smoker was on the list, and I just have reduced it to "non smoker in my house and in my car".

My last relationship was over for more than 2 years, and I was actually still mourning about the stupidity of what had happened, and that I was not going to find in anybody the part I liked without the part that I did not like. Actually, I was even trying to imagine my life alone and that it was best to stay off. I am right now with a person I know for nearly 2 years, though I know about him for even more. At this time he was with a woman already. Anyway he was absolutely not the person I would ever have imagined to be with, especially because I knew his father! I started to have a friendly opening to him actually when I met his son, because this young guy could not have a that bad father.

A few months ago, he told me that he was separated, and that he had decided to have goats again. I had given plants to his son before. We regularly have talked about tips for plants and also for health and back pain etc. Actually I can laugh about who said she did not know how to accept flowers, as I did accept flowers without noticing, because they were artichokes! What a nice permie "bouquet de fleur"!

I cannot say I saw nothing and how he managed to get closer to me haha, but I had doubts too, as it was so slow, and I was not wanting to accept at all. The list of cons was also quite long, and I was really not wanting a relationship at all with anybody.

I don't even know how it changed. It might be his honesty about saying who he was. It can be about having seen what is my one-only-criteria: not only the desire to be a better person, but his way to go slow but steady and do it. He is working hard at lowering his cigarette consumtion for example. He pays attention to his diet and has been recovering from fatigue little by little, during the time I have been myself doing the same. He is authentic and smart about his philosophy of life. I feel respected and I am given time to feel ok. I have expressed my fears and what events from my past I had to face and overcome though it had nothing to do with him. And then there is a big point, he is able to show tenderness in a usually more feminine way and he is conscious that he did not have enough and needs it and that it is not a shame, though it is a shame for most people in a latin culture! I also need this, and know at mental level that we all should give each other more cariño (the spanish word is so nice!) because this is the main condition we need to give each other the support to overcome the bad stuffs in life!

The best relationship is when you can do your job yourself, and not anybody doing it for you, while knowing that without support, you would not be able to really regulate yourself that well. We cannot fix others, but we cannot fix ourselfs alone either, this is the great paradox! Without this, I cannot believe a relationship can be fulfilling.

Also, I can see very clearly the impact of the past in a relationship, and the necessity to become aware and take time to notice - by stopping and giveing space - what happens. Example: by speaking strongly about something he disapproves because it is unfair, that was a bit strong for me, because my parents never ever did this. When I am taken by surprise I know I get shocked. First I could stop him, by saying that I understood, but that the people were not here to listen to him, and that I was... I said it made me feel bad. Then I noticed that I was dissociated, translate as "not feeling present". I explained, and got his kind help with a hug to help me come back. I could even let myself be trembling and then yawn and sigh when I felt better. Then I could say some joke about all this, and we could feel together again. If there is no way to repair the bonding when exterior event happen, then couples see the distance between them increase, and they do not know how to get close again. This is only a physiological process, and we should all know about it and practise it! This morning he had to go to work unexpectedly on sunday, and he was looking low and not paying attention to me. I just went and told him I could observe he looked preoccupied. He answered about what he was actually really feeling, that he was used with a lack of respect, because nobody was able to organize the work properly and that he had to shut up. Of course it was a bit hard for my hear to listen to what he could not say to the right persons! But it was not unexpected, and I "stayed there" because I knew I was helping him to discharge what was looking like a weight on him. When he had a better face after talking, I just said I was happy to see him with a better face now. But I have taken no weight myself, I just gave support for a natural process that everybody is able to do. Even animals do this and give each other support this way! We humans have just forgotten how to do it, and we confuse with "helping" and "saving". Of course we can help, but we should not do this instead of giving support, to not create a confusion.

Women are often a bit too much "savers" and need to know how to become like pets: give just love, and let the people balance themselves through the contact. (of course i do not include any other aspect of pets, and it is about being loving pets to each other, it is not one way!) And you need to find a guy that has no shame about being caring, at least when there are no witnesses! Your dog never solves your problems nor fill your papers, but gives your strength back to you by being there. If you do this and no more, this should filter quite a lot of men...

Pearl, the link should be working...

Sarah Koster wrote:Interesting point. In my this-can-never-happen-again efforts, I realized that the common point between all the guys who I had horrible relationships was, their mother abused, neglected and/or abandoned them. I tend to only be interested in extremely emotionally intense relationships where the man initiates. But when they're doing this because they have mommy issues and are terrified of being abandoned, there's problems. I believe the reason I don't see the red flags is, I was "raised" by parents who were neglected and abused by their mothers/my grandmothers. I was raised to compensate for mommy issues of my then alcoholic parents. So I make every effort to smooth things over, make things work, and de-escalate anxiety and conflict. It seems that the healthier females pick their mate, and aren't picked by him, so that may be a problem I need to address as well, my complacency and overwillingness to humor people. I don't want to be a minion/gopher/retainer/familiar but it seems to be the role I fall into most easily, and lemme tell you, the people who want that in a romantic partners are evil bastards. THEY only want to be served and obeyed and admired, but I eventually get disillusioned and "rebellious" which is when the locking-in-attics and physical abuse seem to start.
I wanna know how they can spot me so easily. I mean there aren't really that many dudes who were abandoned by their mother, are there? And they don't all turn into paranoid, possessive woman-beaters, right? I mean like why? wwwwhhhhhhyyyyyyy i just want to go out with someone who likes trees but doesn't want to keep me under lock and key. it shouldn't be this hard.

You are on a good track!
It is not that easy, because actually, abandonment is one of the most common violence we can experiment! Also common are shame, humiliation and making guilty.

I also have this sort of fear of abandonement, and my new boyfriend as well. But we both have the reaction of trying hard to not reproduce it, and we are both relyable about at least trying our best in this respect. (like bulldogs that won't let go what they have grasped!)

It seems you see your pain into those guys, and that make you attracted! What you really want is to soothe and let go this wound yourself. No mystery, we all want to let go things that we stayed blocked in, creating a lack of fluidity. You have become good at using social skills to lower anxiety and conflict, which is super great, but there are others ways to react when there are conflicts. Do not "abandon" this way you know, just find more and use other ways alternatively from the beginning instead of rebelling later. They spot you because instinctively they can see that you have only this way of dealing with conflict!

Just see the difference with my second story... By the way, I picked the first one, and got picked by the second, and it took him a hard job of several months to convince me!

Nicole, I think you hit the nail squarely on the head with your advice
   he makes me laugh
   he's someone I can respect--in other words, someone who listens and can learn and is relatively smart
   someone who loves Jesus

Keep it simple folks. Don't go looking for story book knights in shining armor. There are a LOT of "average" guys out there who, given the opportunity can be everything you've hoped for and more. Don't let the forest obscure your vision of the trees.

Ooooo look, a shiny moderator hat, complete with purple sparkles Let me put that on....



We noticed that quite a few posts in this topic we're veering toward the Cider Press topic of overpopulation and climate change and all that fun stuff. Thankfully, we've got a topic over in the cider press all about that:

Over population, family planning, and adoption

So, if you'd like to discuss that aspect of relationships, please do so in that topic over there.. It might also be really handy for people to edit out the overpolulation discussion from this thread, so we don't derail it.

Thank you so much!

Now I can take off my hat! Fwew! That thing's heavy! (And I'd much rather be Twilight Sparkle than Trixie, but Trixie's the one with the hat.. You can blame all pony refrences to my brony of a husband, ha! Like I said, go for the nerds, LOL!!!)

Get him to explain what went wrong in his last relationship. Some things are acceptable. She died, she got transferred to Japan , she ran off with someone, she has many admirable qualities, but we always fought etc.

But if he tells you that she was a horrible cunt, or a god damn bitch or just the stupidest twit that he has ever met, then you'll know the sort of woman he looks for. And it will be easier to determine whether you'd like to join that crowd.

I've had women tell me to about this asshole, and that asshole and this liar and that liar, with a never-ending litany of negative qualities associated with men in their past. This tells me more about her than it does about these fellas. I assume that she is either really foolish or really judgemental. Sometimes you hear something like this and then she says, but I had addiction problems. Red flag. Red flag. Red flag. I don't care if those addiction issues stopped 80 years ago, I am done at that point. I think people being in recovery is just fine, but let them date other people who are in recovery.

Gotta say, my husband is a recovered addict. In the whole time we've been dating/married, he's never touched any of the substances. That means he's been clean for 14 years. It probably helps that I've never drank/smoked/done-any-drugs and have no inclination to. Many people can obviously drink responsibly... but it probably will never work out to have a recovered addict with a responsible drinker.

The more I think about it, the more I realize that addiction is a disease. It's like many diseases (such as Crohn's) that you can keep in remission. But, it's never gone. And you mess up, and you're back out of remission.

So, my advice would be to exercise extreme caution with recovered addicts, and to not get involved unless you're willing to support them by not drinking. But, still, I don't think everyone needs to rule them out entirely.

My personal advice is to stop searching. Get comfortable being alone, and learn everything you can, about yourself. Then, if he doesn't find you first, you'll feel more confident, more content with who you are. That kind of confidence is incredibly attractive - especially if you're looking for a guy worth having. Before then, chances are the guys you'll find/attract are either the ones who are more likely to prey on your weaknesses, try to 'rescue' you, or have little confidence in themselves, and are often insecure - which is also not as attractive as a confident man, and insecurity often leads to very unhealthy relationships. If I sound like I speak from experience, it's because I do.

Nicole Alderman wrote:Gotta say, my husband is a recovered addict. In the whole time we've been dating/married, he's never touched any of the substances. That means he's been clean for 14 years. It probably helps that I've never drank/smoked/done-any-drugs and have no inclination to. Many people can obviously drink responsibly... but it probably will never work out to have a recovered addict with a responsible drinker.

The more I think about it, the more I realize that addiction is a disease. It's like many diseases (such as Crohn's) that you can keep in remission. But, it's never gone. And you mess up, and you're back out of remission.

So, my advice would be to exercise extreme caution with recovered addicts, and to not get involved unless you're willing to support them by not drinking. But, still, I don't think everyone needs to rule them out entirely.

Your husband is incredibly lucky, that this addiction problem didn't destroy his entire life and his ability to find a decent woman. I know that I would have advised my daughters strongly against it. In fact, if one of my daughters were attracted to a recovering addict, I would probably do something to make that person feel unsafe, as a means of driving them away. But obviously, this has worked for you and your husband. 14 years is a long time. I don't view addiction as a disease and I don't think I ever will. To me it's a personal failing. But, people can overcome personal failings as well. But potato potatto. He cleaned up, and then he really cleaned up in the dating game. So more power to him and to you. I don't expect to ever give up this particular bias, because I think the chances of it all going horribly wrong, are just too great. I'm someone who puts a lot of faith in statistics, perhaps more than I should. So for me, it would be utter folly to go down that road, simply because I would be setting myself up for failure, because I could never stop worrying about that particular problem resurfacing. There's a terrible thing that I sometimes say, and maybe I should stop. I often say that Jesus makes no sense to me, but I think he's just great for women and children, and those with addiction problems. I've known several people who got involved in church and left some horrible shit behind. They believe it's a spiritual thing, I believe it's a social reinforcement thing, but either way, many seem to be effectively cured. Go Jesus!

Dale Hodgins wrote:Get him to explain what went wrong in his last relationship. Some things are acceptable. ...
But if he tells you that she was ...
... I don't care if those addiction issues stopped 80 years ago, I am done at that point. I think people being in recovery is just fine, but let them date other people who are in recovery.

Nicole Alderman wrote:Gotta say, my husband is a recovered addict. In the whole time we've been dating/married, he's never touched any of the substances. That means he's been clean for 14 years. It probably helps that I've never drank/smoked/done-any-drugs and have no inclination to. Many people can obviously drink responsibly... but it probably will never work out to have a recovered addict with a responsible drinker.

The more I think about it, the more I realize that addiction is a disease. It's like many diseases (such as Crohn's) that you can keep in remission. But, it's never gone. And you mess up, and you're back out of remission.

So, my advice would be to exercise extreme caution with recovered addicts, and to not get involved unless you're willing to support them by not drinking. But, still, I don't think everyone needs to rule them out entirely.

Pamm pamm, my case here too! Don't rule them out, they are strong enough to have gotten through this, and this is precious! It builds a personnality that is worth feeling thankfulness for!
But yes, I drink zero, I even avoid vinegar and fruits...
With my previous BF, we were "drinking responsably", which I did only because of him, and I did not see the problem, and it was.
So he knows that I feel bad even if he drinks a beer, and he knows this is REAL, I mean that I do not want to put pressure "for him". I do not try to fix him, but me. The difference is huge.

Dale, I understand your fear. We also fear most what we do not know. Actually we all have addictions, and 2 points here:
- it depends to what you are addicted
- the best way is to have many different "good" addictions! You can be addicted to be in the garden.... and even this will spoil a relationship if you are too addicted and to only this!
If you don't know this: education through positive reinforcement is based on addiction...

About being a desease: this is a social engagement issue, coming from the lack of support and the lack of nice relationships with other fellow human beings! We should be addicted to tenderness and sweetness, and I do not mean in food...

They believe it's a spiritual thing, I believe it's a social reinforcement thing, but either way, many seem to be effectively cured. Go Jesus!

Yes spirituality is about this... it is about the autonomic part of us, our inner wise, the "brain" they discovered we have in our heart and guts, and it is mainly the vagus nerve.... That easy but stupefying that we do not know it more!

Guys, we will never get involved with anybody that does not match our inner unconscious system! Discover yourself and the others at this level, and you will know all you need. This is what means sayings like "the heart can see what the eyes cannot see"!

My standards were set a long time ago, and I suppose that's probably true for almost anyone my age. And, since I've looked after myself quite well, I haven't lowered my standards, I've raised them quite a bit in the last couple of years.

So, while I think it's commendable that some people are able to look past serious shortcomings in another, I'm sure that for me, my new higher standards are the way to go.

I have quite a list of red flag items, that would make me go no further in pursuing a woman of Interest. I sometimes wonder if women make such a list, when I meet some of the guys that are somehow able to find a girlfriend. I wonder where is he finding women who will accept someone of this caliber? I've hired somewhere around 600 guys from the bottom of the labor market. Mostly guys who have seriously messed up their personal and professional lives, to the point where they are feeding garbage cans for me at minimum wage, when they are 40 years old. And some of these guys have girlfriends who don't seem completely fucked up. And I don't get it. I look at this guy who is going absolutely nowhere in his life and I wonder, how is it that he is able to find a mate that isn't from the bottom rung? The only explanation I'm able to find, is that he found someone whose self-esteem is quite low, so she doesn't understand that she could do far better. I'm not just making judgments on these guys based on their low income and prospects. I've listened to the vile thing they talk about and the way they talk about women.

My phone's at 6%. I guess I better post. The list of my red flag items will have to wait for another time.

Regardless of whether you are a girl trying to meet a guy, a girl trying to meet a girl; a guy trying to meet a girl; or a guy trying to meet a guy:

- You aren't going to "fix" or "tame" another person, especially someone from your past. Ever catch yourself saying "they'd be great if they only changed A, B, C, and D... if they love me, they will change", or you meet someone new that has the same issues as someone from your past, and you date the new person thinking "this time it will be different, proving it wasn't my fault the last relationship failed"? Dating people who all have the same issues is usually an attempt to resolve such a past issue. Also consider that if you "win" someone over that was already dating another person, you had better be ready to be cheated on as well...

- Eventually a person who changes their behavior around you (not the same as changing!) will either start being themselves again or will become miserable, and other issues will come up. A big one I see/hear is trying to get a guy to stop doing things with their buddies, and instead spend every night with their girlfriend instead. Trying to remove a person's social circle is manipulative and unhealthy, and will sabotage a healthy relationship.

- You have to be comfortable with/love yourself first. If you can't stand the idea of NOT being in a relationship, then you need to work out why that is. Financial support isn't a good reason for entering a relationship, look for a roommate to share rent instead. Family pressure to start a family should be ignored, it's your decision and life-long responsibility when that will happen, not your parents or other family. Fear of being alone? Be more specific- what specifically about being alone causes you fear?

- Part of being comfortable with/loving yourself involves finding what interests you and brings you passion/joy in life, and then doing those things. Whether it's a hobby, sport/activity, or lifestyle. Once you start doing these things, then look around for others doing the same things- not just people that message you with a generic "I really like what you're doing" or "did it hurt when you fell from heaven?", but those who are actually doing it for more than a few days. People will say and do lots of things with the hope of finding a one night stand. If that person wasn't doing those activities before then they will likely drop it once they find someone too. Then you could be forced to pick between them and the things you enjoy doing.

Once you are doing things you enjoy/love to do, talking to others around you that are also doing those things because it's also their passion becomes a lot easier. You aren't talking for the sake of "hooking up", you are just 2 people sharing a love for the activity. If you also discover there are other things about that person that you like then great, maybe there can be a more involved relationship. Or you may discover that the only thing you have in common is a shared interest in one particular hobby, and dating long term wouldn't be a good fit.


This is a sort of passive or Taoist form of finding someone I suppose, a type of "non action". Being yourself and finding joy doing things as yourself and letting life bring others near you who are also honestly enjoying life, like leaves in a stream- the eddies and flows will bring you to others in time and you can then develop a healthy relationship for the right reasons. Then down the road, being your true self is one of the best steps for maintaining that healthy relationship, rather than "it takes lots of hard work"- if it's lots of hard work to be happy with a person, it seems like you have the wrong person.

Just so everyone knows, I'm a long way from not being an introvert.  I am working on it, but it's a lot easier to give advice sometimes than to take it myself.  

I was at a social event last night (The Banff Mountain Film Festival, travelling best of show).  A woman who I was even acquainted with already, who had been sitting near me was standing near me at the snack table at the intermission.  She is quite attractive to me, and as I said, I already know her a bit, but then just as I was going to head up to her to chat, two other goddesses in the same realm walked over to her.  It was apparently too much for me to connect with.  I diverted my approach, and walked across the room to talk with some guys about the films and about meeting up for a hike.

 A laughed at myself about it afterward as I drove home... reminiscing about this thread.

 Interestingly, the part that I wrote about your world opening up as you reach out was so apparent, by the opposite feeling that I felt.  There is an overwhelming closing-in feeling that doesn't feel as though it can be challenged.  I know, from past experience, that it immediately dissolves when you break free of it in the moment.  It is like the fear of falling.  I remember at age 17 standing on the edge of a logging bridge without a railing and wanting to jump off it into the creek 40 feet below with my friends and I was so afraid that I wasn't sure I was ever going to do it (i stood there for so long that I was worried about being sunburned), but as soon as my feet left the bridge, the fear was gone.  I had accepted the fear or the consequences, and there was no problem to do it the second time.  I need to remember to make that move.  Lose the fear with that movement.  I think it's a powerful lesson, and I know that I need to remind myself of it as much now as ever.

You'll never be happy with anyone until you are happy with and love yourself.

Oh, the best way to weed guys out is to absolutely refuse to have sex with them.

Dale Hodgins wrote: some of the guys that are somehow able to find a girlfriend. I wonder where is he finding women who will accept someone of this caliber?

Another post eaten by my computer. Try this again.

Something that seems a lot of people are unaware of is how much this society (American, can't speak for the others) programs a woman to feel inadequate if she doesn't have a man. From the clothes for sale at the stores that are designed to appeal to men, the music on the radio that tells girls it will take a man to make her a princess, the female politicians who get harassed for not looking like a model, the ads for everything, the other women who openly pity a single woman, the movies that never seem to end with the woman walking off confidently into the sunset alone, it's really serious programming. Start watching it, it's horrifying when you look.

It's no surprise that a woman will accept any man if she feels she has to. It's better than being single. The number of those of us who have learned to ignore it is getting higher, but for every one of us who is happy to eat out alone, there are 10,000 buying more makeup. I know a lot of women who will skip meals rather than eat out alone. Biology tells us to attract and keep a man, but society makes us feel inadequate if we don't. A single guy may be lonely or lucky (depending on who you ask) but a single woman is inadequate. "Oh, poor thing, can't get a man."

I moved to a small rural town in Missouri, and people watching here is interesting. The girls get the full dose of normal social stuff, plus a lot of pressure to have kids,and stay close to help their family. The boys are taught they need to provide well for their family, so any of them with an IQ leave town for better opportunities, and few return to marry a local girl. The girls are just flat desperate to do what they were taught to do, and a bunch end up with men I would put on Dale's red list. I was at Walmart one day, saw an interesting interaction. Lady saw a guy in the aisle I was in, "hey, how's it going?" "oh, it's getting better, don't know if you heard, me and Natalie got divorced, it was final last week..." before I left the aisle 2-3 minutes later he had 6 women pretty much throwing themselves at him. Wow. Women who pay attention to this sort of thing call that a shark attack.

So I'm not surprised to see women end up with skanky men, because there are standards of what is wanted, and there is reality, take what's here or leave it, and leave it is a really hard response.

One of the saddest things I ever heard, but it's so accurate, was how many women who kill themselves do stuff like clean the house first. Because you know people will say you were too messed up to live, but at least they won't say you were an inadequate woman.  As far as I know, there is no comparable line for men to the Eurythmics "I packed my bags, I cleaned the floor, now I'm walking out the door." She might be gone, but it ain't because she's an inadequate woman. Incredible programming.

So don't judge the women who are with the skanks too harshly, it's hard to resist that kind of programming.

So, it looks like small town Missouri is like the Philippines of the Southern us. The guy with his shit together could do all right.

Here's something that happens with women more than men I think. Taking themselves off the market for a long time, because of something bad that happened. I know a woman who had an unhappy breakup when she was 22. She went out on her next date when she was 45. And and now she constantly laments that she never had children and much of life passed her by, while she was licking her wounds.

I know another one whose husband was one of the first people to discover the internet and run off with a woman that he met in a chat room. She went 14 years before finally going out with someone else.

One of them immediately hooked up with the fellow who had a failing business. She lent him $200,000 in little dribs and drabs. He died before paying any of it back.

When stuff like this happens, there's often someone who has to pay for it, and that someone is a future partner who was not the cause of her troubles.

Roberto pokachinni wrote:Just so everyone knows, I'm a long way from not being an introvert.  I am working on it... just as I was going to head up to her to chat, two other goddesses in the same realm walked over to her.  It was apparently too much for me to connect with... There is an overwhelming closing-in feeling that doesn't feel as though it can be challenged.  

This situation you describe, along with your feelings about it, and the fact that you keep talking about fear really makes me think that what you're talking about is social anxiety.  That's definitely something you can work on, and it sounds like you've come a long way with it.

Introversion isn't about fear.  It's an innate trait, and trying to be extroverted when you're an introvert just wouldn't be healthy.  You can be introverted and socially anxious (and so many people have social anxiety that it's probably really common), but they're two different things.

This situation you describe, along with your feelings about it, and the fact that you keep talking about fear really makes me think that what you're talking about is social anxiety.

Yes, you are probably right there.  Introversion is a genetic trait that we are born with, but it should be added that most people are not introverted or extraverted; They have some levels of both depending on the setting that they find themselves framed in in any given moment and these elements within this spectrum do tend to change somewhat throughout a person's life.  That's what the modern studies seem to say.  People can have more or less introverted tendencies, but they are generally not just introverted.  It's more of a spectrum issue, rather than one of Black and White, This or That. Here's an article about this from Psychology Today ;   I think of it more of something like Aspbergers.  There are so many different levels of it, that it's really hard to nail down to a set definition.  

So I'm going to add to what you said, Jan.  I'm introverted genetically on a lot of fronts, but I have a social element that appreciates the extraversion angle on occasion.  I am both socially anxious and socially awkward, but I'm not always this way in all circumstances.  I think the elements of introversion that can create a problem with reaching out and developing relationships are mostly fed by and added to by learned behaviors based on past experiences or unnecessary social pressures and this leads to further complications on defining introversion.  I believe that a lot of what people think of as introversion is actually predominantly social awkwardness (or greatly enhanced by social awkwardness) that is learned by social programming.  



         

10 Tips to Talk to Anyone About Anything:


Here is another article written by the same psychologist that might help with this thread.  

Bahaha - #10 on that list made me laugh.  

I have a friend who's ridiculously successful with women, and his "oversharing" seems to be one of the main reasons.

A recent example of his oversharing:  He's developed some nerve problem that makes him incontinent.  I went over to his house not too long ago, and first thing he said was, "Hey, I'm wearing a diaper!" and did a gyrating kinda dance.

Now, sure, we've been friends for almost 20 years, so maybe that's not so weird.  But he says stuff like this to everyone.  We used to be roommates, so would usually go grocery shopping together.  I don't know how many times I heard him say something suuuper personal and awkward to the checkout girl - and it would always spark a conversation.  And they'd remember him.  And talk to him the next time, too.  Bring him to a bar and add a bit of alcohol to the interactions, and he'd go home with anyone he wanted.

So maybe that's a good tip for successful conversations - not necessarily to "overshare" - just don't talk about the same shit as everyone else.