Polyamorous Permaculture People

Who is polyamorous?

This could be a place to discuss it!

I have been in a polyamorous relationship with my partner for a year now.

After much contemplation between all of us - we're realizing that this type of dynamic can't be forced.

It must come naturally.  It is no different than love.  It is love expressed in a manner outside of societal norms.

Seemingly quite appropriate within the permaculture spheres in my humble opinion...

What are your experiences with polyamory?

It’s been great for me, after the initial learning curve.  It has definitely been a growth catalyst.  It’s helped me communicate better, and analyze the reasons why I feel certain things, and adjust accordingly.  I’m married and have one other partner.  I think the key is for all parties to be supportive and open with each other.

I have been in poly relationships and was involved with the poly community in the SF Bay Area. While I like poly relationships, the community I experienced was troubling. I don't know how to reconcile these things. At this point, I'm reluctant to bother with relationships, they seem more trouble than they are worth.

Stacy Witscher wrote:...While I like poly relationships, the community I experienced was troubling...

Can you elaborate on "troubling"?

There were numerous issues. Most poly relationships involve a lot of agreements. Some of the people I knew were manipulative with these agreements, many of these people just didn't keep their agreements. I knew several people that had children with other people that were the result of these broken agreements, not good.

It seemed like everybody was so concerned with dating that they had time for little else in their lives, not really my style. It didn't seem balanced to me.

But I really like the idea of not needing to be someone else's everything or vice versa.

I've seen a few poly relationships in my social circles, and they seem to fall into a few categories.  TLDR, relationships are hard & communication is critical to every kind of relationship.

The healthy ones generally involve a LOT of communication.  The day-to-day, the boundaries, the expectations, the stuff that's fun, the stuff that doesn't have to do with the partners.  Discussing metamours is a coin flip.  The healthy types usually have been 'full of love', being able, willing, and wanting to share as much emotional affection as they can.

I've seen less healthy situations where there wasn't enough communication.
I've seen less healthy situations where relationships were opened up 'to keep things interesting' when what was needed was better communication and couples counseling.

Polyamorous homesteading scenarios are very plausible and doable.  It makes a lot of sense from the 'many hands make for light work' perspective as well.  Just keep focusing on the relationships...

Perhaps premies tend to be highly independent??  With that said, a rule of thumb to remember may be 'to not hold others accountable for your happiness.'

Hi! Poly girl here. It can be a challenge to find like-minded people...who get as excited about chickens, gardens, sustainable living...and polyamory. To be honest, haven't found many like-minded people in my area. That can be difficult, as I'd love to connect with other people who are in the same boat. A few years back I purchased 10 acres on a south-facing mountainside in Lake Lure, NC. Someday, I dream of building sustainable community on that mountainside with likeminded people.
Until then, I rub shoulders with people that either a. love to garden and commune with nature but don't understand my lifestyle, b. are poly or kinksters who don't in the faintest understand my love of nature/sustainable living/etc, or c. don't fit into any of these categories.
My dream? Find another partner to is into all of the above in equal parts. That would be so cool.

Laura - I'm right with you. It's very difficult to find people who share your passions. Oh well, such is life.

ME TOO.  I thought I found someone that fit those categories and then some a couple of weeks ago, but he ending up ghosting me the day we were suppose to meet.  He seemed too good to be true, and I guess he was🤷🏼‍♀️

That's the reason why most people have one couple and many friends. One for the sexy things, other for the horizontal exercise.

Are sexy things and horizontal exercise are they not the same thing haha

Stacy Witscher wrote:There were numerous issues. Most poly relationships involve a lot of agreements. Some of the people I knew were manipulative with these agreements, many of these people just didn't keep their agreements. I knew several people that had children with other people that were the result of these broken agreements, not good.

It seemed like everybody was so concerned with dating that they had time for little else in their lives, not really my style. It didn't seem balanced to me.

But I really like the idea of not needing to be someone else's everything or vice versa.

It seems to me that in any dating scene wether monogamous or polyamorous your going to have recreational daters.

Monogamous or poly relationships both require the same things wich is communication,  agreements and commitment to the agreements.

I think there are people out there who are not necessarily polyamorous, but maybe think they are, but in reality they are just noncommittal type who can no more commit to their poly agreements than they could to a monogamous one.

Maybe it's a fine line or maybe the fine line does not exist and I am just projecting the need for commitment to polyamorous relationships. Polygamy which not polyamorous certainly does require commitments and those relationships do have agreements/rules.

You’re right, there are always those non committal types, but I think with poly, they have a chance to be up front and honest about it.  Sure, some are toxic and not going to hold to agreements, but if both parties are up front, honest and safe...they can do their thing with minimal harm to themselves or others.  

That’s not my preference-My stomach turns at the thought of sex without emotional connection, trust, and at least a little commitment.  But I can understand why some people prefer that.  Personally (I could be wrong), I think people that have that mindset may be damaged, and should probably get therapy, or find a spiritual practice to help them.  But that’s just like, my opinion, man.

Seth Gardener wrote:Monogamous or poly relationships both require the same things wich is communication,  agreements and commitment to the agreements.

I think there are people out there who are not necessarily polyamorous, but maybe think they are, but in reality they are just noncommittal type who can no more commit to their poly agreements than they could to a monogamous one.

Maybe it's a fine line or maybe the fine line does not exist and I am just projecting the need for commitment to polyamorous relationships. Polygamy which not polyamorous certainly does require commitments and those relationships do have agreements/rules.

@Seth - I think you are precisely correct.  I don't think you are projecting at all.  And I think that is why most poly relationships ultimately fail - or at least ultimately end - just like most monogamous ones.

I don't mean to suggest that a majority of people identifying as polyamorous are really just commitment-phobes.  Maybe they are, maybe not; I have no idea.  What I do mean is that the same human failings are challenges to poly and monogamous relationships alike.  And while some commitment-phobes who fail at monogamous relationships may flock towards poly relationships, they are most likely kidding themselves that it will make any difference.  Their poly relationships will fail for precisely the same reasons.

I have only limited experience in non-monogamy, and I hesitate to generalize from my own experiences and values.  Nonetheless, it is simply a fact that ALL relationships involve SOME expectation of the other person/people that they will honor certain agreements.  We call that "commitment."  What precisely those agreements are can range all over the map.  But regardless of what has been agreed, the relationship will start heading off the rails if one party feels those agreements aren't being honored.  I feel pretty safe in saying that this is universal.

Even in the most casual relationships - such as just roommates - there is an expectation of shared commitment to certain agreements.  They agree to pay the rent on time; to respect the others' boundaries, however those boundaries are defined; to be considerate, in whatever way consideration is expected, etc.

With more serious relationships - such as lovers living together - most of these agreements will reman in place, though the details might be renegotiated.  And there will be new agreements added on top.  In addition to being good roommates, lovers agree to being affectionate, to dedicating a certain amount of time to shared activities, often to some commingling of their finances, etc.

The details of the agreements in every relationship are unique, but the process of reaching an agreement is the same.  If it is done well, it involves lots of communication, the ability to express oneself, and honesty with oneself and one's partner(s).  And just the same, it implies the expectation of disappointment if one party fails to live up to the agreement.  If it is done poorly, then the communication is imprecise or clouded with emotions, assumptions are left unspoken, or else what is spoken only misleads because the speaker isn't being honest about what they really want or are prepared to do.

I really don't see how these basic facts are any different within a polyamorous dynamic or a monogamous one.  The only difference is that polyamory expands the possibilities of unique agreements lovers might decide to adopt.

It is usually only monogamous types discussing poly lifestyles who would say things like "oh, polyamory, that means relationships without rules or commitments."  If they only thought about it for a few seconds, they would realize what an absurd simplification that is.  To start with, since those same people are usually obsessed over the agreements involving sex in particular, just consider all of the possible permutations there.  Who is allowed to have other lovers?  How many?  Alone?  Together?  Spontaneous, or announced in advance?  Lovers for physical gratification only, or for romantic attachment as well?  Lovers who cohabit, or not?  Lovers who will also be co-parents, or not?  Etc., etc.

Each possible permutation equals an understanding of what can be expected from the other person/people involved.  Once expressed by all, that understanding equals an agreement to which you expect the other(s) to commit.  No matter how "open" an open relationship may appear, it doesn't take much delving to uncover the layers upon layers of commitments on which that relationship is actually based.

I think that the language we use says a lot about where we are coming from. I don't necessarily think people changing their relationship is a failure, it can be just a change. The relationship worked for a period of time and now everyone can be adult enough to admit that it isn't working anymore for whatever reason. I don't regret all of my relationships, my marriage for sure, but not the rest of them.

Jamie - I find your last paragraph somewhat offensive, but poly people can have similar thoughts about monogamous people, like if you were only as evolved as us you wouldn't be so insecure and jealous. But aside from that, most poly people are in relationships with their lovers, just as primary, secondary or tertiary ones. And there are asexual poly people. It's not generally just hookups, that's more like swinging or sex parties.

I did not intend to offend.  I was just sharing my opinion based on my (limited) experience and perspective.  Like I said, I could be wrong, and probably not EVERYONE that has casual sex without emotional investment has past trauma that influence their actions and attitudes, but in my experience, that’s been the case. And I’m totally ok with finding out I’m wrong and adjusting my opinions accordingly. There are very, very few opinions I’m completely attached to.😏

Jamie - I didn't know if you were trying to be offensive, just pointing out how it could be misconstrued. But again, why assume these are casual relationships? I wouldn't call a decade long tertiary relationship casual. I consider it far less casual than serial monogamy.

Stacy, I think I should have posted Seth’s statement before mine.

“I think there are people out there who are not necessarily polyamorous, but maybe think they are, but in reality they are just noncommittal type who can no more commit to their poly agreements than they could to a monogamous one.”

I have a 2 year tertiary relationship in addition to my marriage that’s committed and anything but casual.  I’m sorry for the confusion😳

Fair enough, nice discussion.

Hello, Permies, and thanks, Rob, for making this thread.
First, let me say that if I had a superpower that allowed me to brainwash anybody I talked to, and I could only choose one or the other:
Wipe anti-polyculture bias (when it comes to landscape and food production)
or
Wipe anti-polyamory bias in relationships,
Then I would choose the former. In my experience, putting a mirror up to the system of toxic conveniences that is modern life makes the subject of multiple partner relationships seem like light conversation.
Ok, now on topic,
It's obvious that no two people are quite the same, thus relationships between people have even more diversity and complexity! In the mono/poly dichotomy, we see what strengths one mode has over the other. However, when it comes to what causes broken relationships, it's never the presence of a third-party or a lack thereof. Focusing on the two extremes can be helpful, but to grow in how we live with respect to others, we must navigate what lies between. Right livelihood is an expression that says "hey there's something just not quite right about how we've been doing things!" It encompasses everything we need to live, including love. I hope to sow seeds for fruitful discussion on how to facilitate multiple partners and address the issues that derail us from experiencing a continuous reciprocal flow of love with our kind.
Polyamory just means, to me at least, many loves. Here's my just-thought-up application of the permaculture zoning technique to where you get your loving:
Zone 0 = yourself, the source of your love
Zone 1 = lovers with whom you are co-creating life, family, business, community, etc.
Zone 2 = serious romantic partners or close kin such as family and dear friends
Zone 3 = support system of relatives, friends, likeminded people, local businesses, and any other mutually beneficial relationships
Zone 4 = broader community of neighbors, townfolk and internet people whose approval you may welcome but, do not rely on for support
Zone 5 = anything that takes much and gives back very little

Jamie Kennedy wrote:It’s been great for me, after the initial learning curve.  It has definitely been a growth catalyst.  It’s helped me communicate better, and analyze the reasons why I feel certain things, and adjust accordingly.  I’m married and have one other partner.  I think the key is for all parties to be supportive and open with each other.

Exactly, my girlfriend is married.  

We dated years ago...I didn't want to commit and then she began dating someone while we maintained a very strong friendship.

When I attended their wedding, I thought I had made the biggest mistake of my life!

Turns out I am friends with her husband now.

I help him throw hay bales.

He helps me with projects.

Together we are building our collective homesteads and have a back up plan if one of them should fail (long story).

We have come to realize that it does indeed take a village, and we are creating our very own.

It's working for us.  It's challenging at times, but the pros far outweigh the cons.

Our communication across the board has improved tremendously.

I'm still shocked this is my life.

That’s awesome Rob!  I love the mutual aide network poly is able to provide, both materially and emotionally.  

Grey, I love your idea of permaculture polyamory zoning!

Jamie Kennedy wrote:My stomach turns at the thought of sex without emotional connection, trust, and at least a little commitment.  But I can understand why some people prefer that.  Personally (I could be wrong), I think people that have that mindset may be damaged, and should probably get therapy, or find a spiritual practice to help them.  But that’s just like, my opinion, man.

That's a bold opinion to share. Isn't there a rule here about "shoulds"?

Anyway, in my case, if I court a nice lady and she plays along that's enough trust and emotional connection to satisfy me. The rest will follow, or it won't. I don't feel damaged, I just like women a lot I guess. Although I might be damaged in some blind spot.

Spiritual practice is always a good idea, damaged or not

There sure has been some interesting dialogue here.  I'm glad everyone has chimed in.  There's a lot of diversity in people's opinions on this matter.  Many of them are negative, even from the "pro-poly" here.  I was very curious to see what direction this thread would take.  I'm glad it has received the responses it has thus far.  

Honestly Francis, the more I think about it, the more I think that opinion might partially be me projecting my emotions about my younger self onto others.   It would be an understatement to say I was a bit “wild” and definitely DID need therapy and spiritual practice.🤷🏼‍♀️

Jamie Kennedy wrote:My stomach turns at the thought of sex without emotional connection, trust, and at least a little commitment.  But I can understand why some people prefer that.  Personally (I could be wrong), I think people that have that mindset may be damaged, and should probably get therapy, or find a spiritual practice to help them.  But that’s just like, my opinion, man.

What's interesting is that this is a presumption that many people make about those engaging in polyamorous relationships.  It's not like a giant swingers club with wild raging orgies all the time.  Besides my girlfriend (who is married), I don't have time to date very often.  

Homesteading is a busy life, and in my case, one that consists of going over to my girlfriends house to help throw hay bales with her husband when she turns an ankle. It also looks like him coming over regularly to help me work on the construction of the commercial kitchen we are building.

Our parents and many of our friends don't understand it, nor do they have the desire to.  A lack of desire to engage in dialogue about it often leads to quick judgement being passed and a lot of unnecessary drama being created about a situation made up in their own minds.

Now, I'm not implying or suggesting that is what you are doing, but I notice some patterns in your written word above and wanted to share my own thoughts.  Regarding therapy, I have routinely worked with counselors in the past, am currently working with a financial and health coach, and am an active member of my church.  I respect your opinions, man...and I hope my feedback on them is respected in turn.

I’m gonna try to clear this up one more time before I give up and melt back into the shadows😏. Here’s the first part of that post that wasn’t included-

Jamie Kennedy wrote:You’re right, there are always those non committal types, but I think with poly, they have a chance to be up front and honest about it.  Sure, some are toxic and not going to hold to agreements, but if both parties are up front, honest and safe...they can do their thing with minimal harm to themselves or others.  

Here’s the post where I tried to clarify my meaning.

Jamie Kennedy wrote:Stacy, I think I should have posted Seth’s statement before mine.

“I think there are people out there who are not necessarily polyamorous, but maybe think they are, but in reality they are just noncommittal type who can no more commit to their poly agreements than they could to a monogamous one.”

I have a 2 year tertiary relationship in addition to my marriage that’s committed and anything but casual.  I’m sorry for the confusion😳

So.  I’m poly..married with a boyfriend (I helped him finish building his house, so I can relate to you, Rob).  I was trying to say I’m uncomfortable with getting physical with someone before I get to know them very well and establish an emotional connection.  I guess I miss worded it, and failed to provide context?

Rob Kaiser wrote:Our parents and many of our friends don't understand it, nor do they have the desire to.  A lack of desire to engage in dialogue about it often leads to quick judgement being passed and a lot of unnecessary drama being created about a situation made up in their own minds.

I agree.  This has typically been my experience.  Not that I attempted to discuss the details of my own non-monogamous relationship with too many people, but when I did I most often found that they weren't really interested in understanding.  Some would initially make sounds as if they were trying to understand or discuss, but it usually became quickly apparent that they were not.

Of course, nobody says that they have to agree with me.  They can have their own opinions and prefer their own types of relationships; that's fine.  I don't want anyone to think that I am dismissing these people as unreasonable or closeminded simply because I couldn't convince them of my viewpoint.

There was more to it than that.  It seemed like the entire topic of discussion - and the reality of me, a person they knew, who was actually doing such an unconventional thing - provoked an emotional reaction on their part.  In the most extreme cases, I would say it was almost a fear reaction.  They wished to slap a quick and easy label on the entire concept, and thus on me, and shoo it away.

Others, like my parents, didn't show such an extreme reaction.  Yet I still don't feel like I have ever discussed it with them in which they actually for one minute openly and dispassionately considered the options, or examined their own assumptions and choices, or were truly open to the idea that other people might choose an alternative lifestyle without fitting into some easy label like "commitment-phobe," or "hippie-wannabe," or "just plain crazy."

Jamie Kennedy wrote:I’m gonna try to clear this up one more time before I give up and melt back into the shadows😏.

Please don't melt away,  I misinterpreted your words and I apologize.  I'm so used to judgmental opinions that I didn't think before jumping to conclusions, which kinda makes me the judgmental person in this case lol sorry

Of course you are right,  sex without any feelings makes me uneasy too and doesn't feel healthy.

See that's weird to me. While I have no problem with people wanting sex with emotional connection, I don't feel like there is anything inherently wrong or unhealthy to have sex without that. There is a biological need for sexual release. I have had plenty of therapy and my opinion on this matter has not changed over decades. Over my lifetime, I have been monogamous, polyamorous and celibate. Those were my choices at various points in my life and I have always felt that they are all entirely valid.

Stacy Witscher wrote:See that's weird to me. While I have no problem with people wanting sex with emotional connection, I don't feel like there is anything inherently wrong or unhealthy to have sex without that. There is a biological need for sexual release. I have had plenty of therapy and my opinion on this matter has not changed over decades. Over my lifetime, I have been monogamous, polyamorous and celibate. Those were my choices at various points in my life and I have always felt that they are all entirely valid.

We're on the same page I'm sure, it's just a matter words vs meaning. At I first I read Jamie's comment as a condemnation of frivolous people but that's not necessarily the case. I don't need much encouragement to get going but doing it with someone who doesn't care at all, for whatever reason, would probably not be fun.  I wouldn't want to play with a woman that's with me to hurt someone else or because she feels she has to. Stuff like that. Pretty sure I wouldn't enjoy it.

I've only been in monogamous relationships, for a long time I wasn't aware there were alternatives. Monogamy always felt contrived to me. At first I thought it was lust (as a young man I had plenty of that) but now that I'm older I know there is more to it. I met my woman before I learned about permaculture, in which she has absolutely no interest. Permaculture is a big deal to me but so is she. Polyamorous relationships make more sense in my mind.

I've never been in a poly relationship as I'm not interested, but it seems to me they'd be very difficult to manage. Keeping things straight with one partner can be challenging enough, but enter a third party where competition is very likely to crop up, and you've introduced a whole other set of problems. Again, I have no experience but just seems to me from everyday relations and work environments that there's can be a lot of turmoil when people are competing to be the 'favorite'. Immature behavior, to be sure, but not uncommon.

As for being each other's 'everything' in a monogamous relationship, that does not have to be the case at all as each can have their own work, personal activities, other friends, etc.

My husband doesn't mind my boyfriend. My boyfriend's wife doesn't mind me. We actually all get along, swell.

Gregg - The big joke about the poly community is that it makes something exciting, an affair, into a mundane scheduling issue. I think that others have stated it well. Being poly isn't going to fix your primary relationship, if you are unsatisfied with your partner, this isn't going to change that. It actually makes it much clearer.

Stacy Witscher wrote:The big joke about the poly community is that it makes something exciting, an affair, into a mundane scheduling issue.

Hah!  I hadn't heard that one ; )

Stacy Witscher wrote:Being poly isn't going to fix your primary relationship, if you are unsatisfied with your partner, this isn't going to change that. It actually makes it much clearer.

Very true.  I suspect that this is a common fallacy.  I've certainly known people to turn to polyamory or open relationships out of desperation, because they have a failing relationship and/or a relationship that contains a fundamental sexual incompatibility.  They think the excitement of new sexual partners, or even just the "whiff of freedom," will make them happier and thus all will work out well.

Well, it might make them happier, at least temporarily as individuals.  But it isn't going to fix problems they already had as a couple.  Only fixing problems fixes problems!  That takes time, honesty, communication, compromise ...in short: hard work.  And sometimes it takes the willingness to admit that some things can't be fixed and you both need to move on.

At best I would say that happy side relationships can take some of the pressure of a troubled primary relationship.  Not a fix, but a temporary reprieve, and hopefully enough time to do all that hard work.

Jamie Kennedy wrote:That’s awesome Rob!  I love the mutual aide network poly is able to provide, both materially and emotionally.  

Grey, I love your idea of permaculture polyamory zoning!

It very much is a mutual aide network...we all help each other when needed - in all ways.

The permaculture polyamory zoning idea *is* cool - this topic sure has stirred up some good dialogue!

Gregg Brazel wrote:I've never been in a poly relationship as I'm not interested, but it seems to me they'd be very difficult to manage. Keeping things straight with one partner can be challenging enough, but enter a third party where competition is very likely to crop up, and you've introduced a whole other set of problems. Again, I have no experience but just seems to me from everyday relations and work environments that there's can be a lot of turmoil when people are competing to be the 'favorite'. Immature behavior, to be sure, but not uncommon.

As for being each other's 'everything' in a monogamous relationship, that does not have to be the case at all as each can have their own work, personal activities, other friends, etc.

That's a common response from someone who's never had the experience.

Personally, I find that it's not any more or less difficult to manage - as they are all relationships.

The only real difference is that I'm sexually active with a select few of them.

I try to make this analogy to those who have children...you love each of them both equally - but differently.

The turmoil that you mention is present in all relationships - but how we manage it is key.

My partner and I are polyamorous in spirit but not actively dating/searching at this time in our lives. I'm really surprised at how uncommon polyamory seems in the permaculture world. Granted, I haven't gone looking for social groups based on permaculture yet. I'm about to move to the Southern Tier NY area where we're buying 6 acres, so I will probably find the right groups of people up there and perhaps dating will feel right.

I love the permaculture "zones" for relationships, that's really sweet.

Juniper Oliphant wrote:I'm really surprised at how uncommon polyamory seems in the permaculture world.

But is it, really?  I'm curious that this is your observation.  Or were you judging simply by the traffic of posts on this thread?

My own experience comprises attendance for years running now at a 100+ people Permaculture Gathering.  That Gathering is, in turn, largely organized by people from an intentional community prominent in the area.  My impression is that more than a few are of the type amenable to polyamory.  Still a minority, I'm sure, but a larger portion than in the general population.

My ex-GF once briefly lived in that same intentional community.  Her impression was that it was rife with polyamory.  Or, at least rife with promiscuity by people who used the language of polyamory.  She seemed to think most of them were rather poor at being polyamorous, and there was much BS involved, with resultant drama.  Of course, her observations may have been biased.