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Alternative water sources (just in case)

N. Neta

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In order to make your home more resilient in case of a short-term crisis or a long-term disaster… 
What alternative water sources could you add?

I’m thinking primarily for drinking, cooking and sanitation… watering crops is secondary.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts and experience.

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Douglas Alpenstock

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In summer, I wouldn't hestitate to boil and use rainwater from our barrels.

In winter, I have snowbanks, large pots and a giant woodpile. As long as I collect away from the dog runs, I'll be all right.

John C Daley

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Look at this topic for large scale capture and use of rainwater for domestic purposes, a 20,000L tank would last a long time, 2 months and if you have rainfall most months you may not run out either.

benefits of rainfall collection

John Daley Bendigo, Australia The Enemy of progress is the hope of a perfect plan
Benefits of rainfall collection https://permies.com/t/88043/benefits-rainfall-collection
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Mk Neal

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I suppose I could haul a trunkful of water buckets from Lake Michigan, then filter and boil it. same as what comes out the tap w/o the chlorine...

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Alex Mowbray

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Hey,

list of concepts,

Reduce moisture needs, by staying in a cool and shady place,

You need to filter urine before you drink it.

You can get significant portions of water from food, so knowing how to manage this is essential,

trees and plants contain significant amounts of water understand how to extract and use this, from making cuts on vines, to collecting moisture from leaves,
or cutting down the tree and drinking from it,

understanding how to read a water table to dig for water, identify trees to dig near, and feel for cold damp soil, knowing soil types and permeability of different soils.

In a pinch you could disconnect a washing machine and dishwasher and drier to find water, Please clean it

In an emergency the taps still contain some water, But you will be putting air into the pipes which causes significant issues, you hear this over time causing rattling.

You can dig out gutters and dig out drains and squeeze the humus, to get water, Please clean,

Air conditioners, and fridges, can be utilised to condense air vapour and collect water.

Australia Athletes had a massive advantage in 1980s because of there ability to manage hydration better,
with electrolytes, salts etc.

Dead animals, please clean,

compost heaps, please clean,

Rivers, dams, beaches, please clean and desalinate,

sewer man holes, have significant amounts of water, please be careful you may die collecting it, also please clean,
your toilet, Please clean,

coffee machines,

Spero Meliora

S Bengi

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Possible Water Source
Impure Surface Water: Lake/Pond/Puddle/River/Stream, use ozone/chlorine/boil
Impure Shallow Well: hand dug or sand point well, use ozone/chlorine/boil
Deep Well:
Rainwater Catchment: metal roof + tank/sand fill "pool-pond", use ozone/chlorine/boil
Plants: Sap from palms/maple/grasses/etc, coconut water,
Animal: Milk
Seawater/Desalination: RO system required or solar still
Water Vapor Condensation: think about an AC unit dripping

Possible Water Reduction
Composting Toilet: use the sun to dry it out
Bath: Rag+bucket bath vs a shower
Cooking: Eating raw, eating fermented food, eating with your hand (roasted potatoes+chicken right off the grill)
Laundry: Freshen it up with just sun and wind, rewear them, long soak+bleach, low-water appliance/full load

Iterations are fine, we don't have to be perfect
My 2nd Location:Florida HardinessZone:10 AHS:10 GDD:8500 Rainfall:2in/mth winter, 8in/mth summer, Soil:Sand pH8 Flat

N. Neta

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John C Daley wrote:
benefits of rainfall collection

Thank you so much, John…
A fantastic resource.

John C Daley

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Glad you enjoy the rainfall topic.
S BEngi what is an RO system please?

Douglas Alpenstock

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RO = reverse osmosis, the reduction of dissolved ions, typically salts, using pressure to derive pure(r) water by forcingt it to the other side of an engineered membrane. Cells do this naturally, so it's a nature clone, sort of. (Definition is from memory, so may be incomplete.)

There are different kinds of membranes, so they do need to be tailored to the water source. A source of controlled pressure is also required. Biofouling is a big issue. I'm looking into one for my well water -- too salty, too high TDS, crazy high flouride.

John C Daley

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OK, there are so many acronyms I cannot remember them all.
I did have to look up TDS, it was what I guess itv may be, but the topic was interesting;
safewater.org/fact-sheets

It mentions the high # Total Dissolved Solids is not in itself a problem, but it indicates there may be other issues with the water.
Its a good read its a bit like that song, you put your left footin....

You filter the water, then run through some minerals, then add something, then check PH then do something and finally drink it!
Iy mught be better to drink beer and wash the dishes in it was well, with all the dangers of well water!

WHAT HAPPENS TO THE WATER WHEN THE TDS LEVEL IS HIGH?

Alone, a high concentration of dissolved solids is usually not a health hazard. In fact, many people buy mineral water, which has naturally elevated levels of dissolved solids.

HOW CAN WATER TREATMENT FACILITIES REMOVE TDS?
Water treatment facilities can use reverse osmosis to remove the dissolved solids in the water that are responsible for elevated TDS levels. Reverse osmosis removes virtually all dissolved substances, including many harmful minerals, such as salt and lead. It also removes healthy minerals, such as calcium and magnesium, and ideally such water should be filtered through a magnesium and calcium mineral bed to add the minerals to the water.

But as I read all I can find about water in North America, there are always problems, and thats why I have taken up the role of converting everybody to rainwater, the problems are miniscule compared with [cw] well water.
THE ONLY PROBLEM WITH RAIN HAPPENS WHEN THERE IS NONE!!

We have areas in Australia where there is no rain for 10 years, in Bendigo here, it can be 12 weeks or more.

Marc Dube

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As someone who hauls in all of our water I have put lots of thought into this. Currently we get all of our water from a municipal well that is between home and my work so I just get it on my way home and no special trips are needed. I know of 2 other municipal wells I can access if I need to for some reason. I have a mental map of every pond close by that is suitable to collect water from and have a filtration system if I need it. I want to get a pump so I can pump water from a pond into the tank on the truck.

I have not put much effort into rain water because we get so little of it so far apart that the first flush system required would take half the rain that fell (we had less than 10 inches this year).

N. Neta

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Marc Dube wrote:I have a mental map of every pond close by that is suitable to collect water from and have a filtration system if I need it. I want to get a pump so I can pump water from a pond into the tank on the truck.

This is brilliant, Marc…
I actually heard someone talking about the importance of making a “water map” of your region, but I never understood it.
Now I get it…
Thank you.

John C Daley

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Marc, capturing 10 inches a year would still help.
In the past first flush systems did not exist, and the water was ok, the trick being to have large tanks so things can settle and also the water cleans itself over time.
Nowadays any first flush could be diverted to a separate tank for use on the garden or toilet flushing.

If you have a 35 x 25 foot house thats 875 sq ft times 10 inches of rain.
Giving you 729 cubic ft of rain = 20,400 Litres

By any measure that is a lot of water, approx 5000 Imperial Gallons.
Over a year it averages 100 gallons a week!

How much are you hauling on average a week?

N. Neta

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John C Daley wrote:
THE ONLY PROBLEM WITH RAIN HAPPENS WHEN THERE IS NONE!!

John… we’re in a dry Mediterranean climate with only 2-3 rain events a year (15-25cm of rain in total a year).
We catch every drop of rain from the roof into 3 concrete ponds dug in the ground.
In total, we catch about 40,000 liters every year.
We use the water for irrigation, but I was wondering what’s the best way to make the water safe to drink in case we have to…

John C Daley

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I live in a similar area, Bendigo has about 18 inches of rain.
That volume captured is fantastic and well enough to have for domestic purposes.
I am acutely aware of the resistance to using rainwater for drinking etc in North america, but when you think about it all water starts off the cycle as rain!!
I have difficulty accepting so much well water is used with all its own set of problems and expence.

I suggest you look at this topic which I add to as time passes.
Then perhaps line up your questions after that.
BUT ESSENTIALLY you start with a big tank to encourage settlement of solids etc and your ponds may have that effect.
You would move that water to a smaller tank say 2000L and set up a floating discharge pipe inside,
floating-water-intake-tankster-for-best-tank-water/

Other ideas for floating discharge pipes from tanks

After this type of system you can pass water through a simple cleanable disc filter

Douglas Alpenstock

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John C Daley wrote:Marc, capturing 10 inches a year would still help.
In the past first flush systems did not exist, and the water was ok, the trick being to have large tanks so things can settle and also the water cleans itself over time.
Nowadays any first flush could be diverted to a separate tank for use on the garden or toilet flushing.

If you have a 35 x 25 foot house thats 875 sq ft times 10 inches of rain.
Giving you 729 cubic ft of rain = 20,400 Litres

By any measure that is a lot of water, approx 5000 Imperial Gallons.
Over a year it averages 100 gallons a week!

How much are you hauling on average a week?

Rainwater catchment is always worthwhile, if only for garden or grey water systems. There is an essential limiting factor: a Canadian prairie winter. Unless your cisterns are buried deep, they have to be drained for 6 months of the year. I just dumped all my rainwater on trees today.

John C Daley

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If tanks were planned as the house is constructed and placed in the basement, would they be ok?

Douglas Alpenstock

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Yes, I have seen basement cisterns in areas where developments are too close to have safe separation between septic mounds and water wells. Provided that the buildings are heated, the cisterns are safe.

Some neighbours of mine have buried cisterns as well, and truck in municipal water since water wells are hit-and-miss. Provided they are well insulated and the supply piping is deep enough (8 ft.), they are perfectly reliable.

For catchment purposes, it's worth noting that an important percentage of the annual precipitation is deposited as a solid.

John C Daley

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important percentage of the annual precipitation is deposited as a solid.

What do you get theree

Marc Dube

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John C Daley wrote:

important percentage of the annual precipitation is deposited as a solid.

What do you get theree

He means that a good portion of the precipitation comes as snow during the winter.

I have a small cistern in my basement which works good but totally wish it was much bigger, I would gladly give up basement space for water storage. Outside tanks are not worth it as it is below freezing for 6-7 months a year, so the only viable option for longterm water storage is underground which has its own costs.

N. Neta

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John C Daley wrote:I suggest you look at this topic which I add to as time passes.

Thank you so much John… so much to learn…

John C Daley

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SO, precipitation which I assumed measures the amount of rainfall in Australia, is different when there is snow?
If you have an actual 10 inches of rain, and 3 ft of snow how is that recorded?

Apart from the risk of snow wrecking gutters, can the snow melt be captured?

Douglas Alpenstock

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Snow it tricky, since it can be light as a feather (powder) or as dense as wet mashed potatoes. Snowfall is measured and converted to mm precipitation based on its density.

Yes, snow melt is routinely captured in ponds/dugouts and natural wetlands. This early surge of water is very important to the natural ecology and to replenishing groundwater.

To this point, I haven't captured snowmelt per se, since there are usually many freeze/thaw cycles that would destroy tanks. Instead, I move it onto trees, garden beds, and perennial beds to provide insulation from the cold, slow down premature budding in spring, and give everything a slow drink at the start of the season.

Though I live up on a hill, I'm starting to contemplate a lined catchment pond for snow melt off roofs. In a drought year, that reserve could save my garden and fruit trees.

N. Neta

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Anyone knows how long you can keep water in (plastic) bottles, and is there a better way to keep clean drinking water for a longer period?
Or would you just fill up containers with clean water every month, and use the “old” water for other purposes…?

John C Daley

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A bit more information will make it easier, what alternatives are there?
Some plqstic is ok, some will impart a slight taste or small, but it may be better than nothing.

John C Daley

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I have just been told by a chap from Indiana who no lives down the road from me, that 1 inch of rain equals 8 inches of snow.
Hr was remembering things he learnt at school.
is that still close enough?

Also, I think you could retrofit ' bladder' tanks into a basement to hold water over the winter.
Australian Bladder tanks

Douglas Alpenstock

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John C Daley wrote:I have just been told by a chap from Indiana who no lives down the road from me, that 1 inch of rain equals 8 inches of snow.
Hr was remembering things he learnt at school.
is that still close enough?

That's about right for a heavy, wet maritime snow right around the freezing mark. Looking at different sources, they estimate the water/air ratio based on temperature, which makes sense. So powder snow in a cold environment might require 3x as much snow for 1 inch of rain.

N. Neta

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John C Daley wrote:A bit more information will make it easier, what alternatives are there?
Some plqstic is ok, some will impart a slight taste or small, but it may be better than nothing.

I guess I don’t make myself clear enough, John…
Let me try again…

I want to prepare for the possibility of two types of events/crises/disasters…
A short term - let’s say a week
And a longer term - let’s say 3 months
Where the water supply from the city is nonexistent…

Any ideas how to prepare for these two scenarios for mainly drinkable and cooking water…?
(I have solutions for irrigation and possible showers)

Thanks a million…

John C Daley

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IBC [ international bulk containers] work well.
Why bother with bottles why not look at bulk storage, there are plenty of tanks available for that .
Capacities range from 200 -20,000 Litres.

N. Neta

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John C Daley wrote:IBC [ international bulk containers] work well.
Why bother with bottles why not look at bulk storage, there are plenty of tanks available for that .
Capacities range from 200 -20,000 Litres.

I was considering using 1,000 or 2,000 liter IBC - but when I researched if these can be reused, Google responded with “For the most part, IBC totes are fairly easy to reuse. Typically they can be washed and refilled two to three times before they outlive their usefulness.”

That two to three times bothered me as IBCs are quite costly where we live.

What is your experience with that, John? Or anyone else?

John C Daley

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I have had them on my farm for 10 yeras, regularly filling and redrawing from them.
I do not understand the comment you highlighted.

Some tanks have degraded in sunlight, but they were earlier supplied tanks, maybe they are all better quality today.
Some tanks I believe cannot be used because of the earlier contents, but they are identified in someway I am not familiar with.

Douglas Alpenstock

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N. Neta wrote:... but when I researched if these can be reused, Google responded with “For the most part, IBC totes are fairly easy to reuse. Typically they can be washed and refilled two to three times before they outlive their usefulness.”

I suppose that may apply to specific industrial or food grade uses. For rainwater collection, they will last for years and years.

N. Neta

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Douglas Alpenstock wrote:

N. Neta wrote:... but when I researched if these can be reused, Google responded with “For the most part, IBC totes are fairly easy to reuse. Typically they can be washed and refilled two to three times before they outlive their usefulness.”

I suppose that may apply to specific industrial or food grade uses. For rainwater collection, they will last for years and years.

Thanks Douglas… good to know.

John C Daley

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How did your project go?
Is it up and running?

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