the new biodynamic forum on permies.com

Recently, somebody posted some stuff about how they were not fans of biodynamic. They went so far as to suggest that it was fact that biodynamic is ... crazy?

I wish to make a few things clear.

On my forum, I am interested in publishing open, respectful discussion on biodynamic stuff. I have seen several examples that have been excellent. I would much rathe buy food labeled "biodynamic" than "organic". In fact, I would pay triple for biodynamic.

I do not like publishing stuff that suggests that people on permies.com are anything less than perfect. Nor do I want to publish anything that states "the truth".

I am looking forward to learning more about biodynamic through the discussions in this new forum.

thanks Paul, thoroughly enjoying learning a bit more about planting by the phases of the moon, and have just ordered a 2013 N Am calendar to get busy on this next year..and have been doing some on linne research that has me doing a lot of thinking. Ordered the book and figure this can't HURT to be more cautious about dates I plant or harvest..etc.

I attended a seminar about Biodynamics in Pittsburgh last weekend. I had never heard of this and went to learn with an open mind. It was a very interesting over view and gave the basic principals as well as explaining the herbs and additives that they added to their garden soils and their compost. Much of the process makes sense, several of the plants used in Biodynamics have been promoted on here as repelling pests from plants or promoting plant health in other ways. I did not care for the idea that I had to buy their calendar each and every year. The herbs and other additives could be grown and produced and fermented yourself at home [ assuming you had a cow or some way to acquire cow horn ] but the calendar changes each and every year and you are forced to purchase that item from them. The small number of reviews that I have read on the net about Biodynamics have been very mixed, some claiming better more healthy produce some claiming its results are the same as organic garden produce and some claiming the guy who came up with the idea was a flim flam man. People have used the time of year as shown by the fazes of the moon as a planting guide for centuries. Biodynamics takes this idea to a whole new level . The Lady who gave the seminar in Pittsburgh is having another one when she mixes up her manure tea and other mixes and said she will give everyone who attends a Gallon of the mix. It is an hour drive for me, and I hate to go to the City, but I am debating about attending just to get a Gallon of the mix and see how it works. Her 3rd seminar will be in the fall and let people taste the biodynamic veggies and fruits. At this point I am not convinced that Biodynamics has a Huge impact on garden production, but I fell that it certainly does no Harm. It may help, but I would need to see more proof to become a convert and buy their calendar.

Mike,

Gardening by nature is nothing new. Some aspects of biodynamic practices tap in to that science. I happen to be a follower of the old ways and the study of nature so I do believe there are some merits to biodynamic gardening.

There is a ton of free information covering every topic imaginable out on the internet. Here are links to free Biodynamic calendars.

http://www.astrologie-info.com/mocal.cgi?&language=eng&sidtrop=si
http://www.the-gardeners-calendar.co.uk/moonplanting.asp
http://www.rhythmofnature.net/biodynamic-calendar-april-2013

(P.S. I try to avoid Pittsburgh as much as possible too! Doesn't everyone? Lol)

Hey all,

When I first heard about biodynamics, I didn't have a problem with the concept. But I can see where much of the applied spiritualism can be a bit much for some people. That's fine. I happen to be able to not get bogged down by things I might not necessarily be able to take on faith. I read a lot of epic fantasy, and it's still occasionally a guilty escapist pleasure of mine, so suspense of disbelief is well-practiced with me. I focused, however, on the parts that jumped out at me that make immediate sense after you pare it down to what the normal person can accept in somewhat scientific terms, or at least in accordance with what we think we know about horticulture:

1)There are many natural systems that are governed by the physical and measurable effect the moon's gravitation has on the planet as a whole. This should be adequate reason for further inquiry on its own.

2)While I don't understand exactly what the burial of specific things in a horn have to do with fertility (I am not casting aspersions, I just don't understand it), I can understand making specialised compost of plants that are commonly used as foliar sprays and herbal tonics elsewhere, and putting them in locations where they will culture horticulturally important microbes and bacteria by being at the right place at the right time for the moon's gravity or some change that occurs with it to kickstart the lifecycles of these microbes.

3)I can further understand the use of these specialised composts as innoculants, to introduce beneficial cultures onto the surface of plants and in the soil before bad ones can overpopulate them.

I'd like to do more reading on biodynamics. I have to admit that I put my skeptical spectacles on when I heard that this was Rudolph Steiner's baby, and that it goes hand-in-hand with his Waldorf School. I know people who've gone to Waldorf schools. I can see exactly why it's a perfect fit for some people. I can also understand why they can be completely ill-suited for others, and why some people might not even look past the Rudolph Steiner name. They do promote spiritual concepts that do come off a little "out there" to the uninitiated, and they raise children that way. But I don't see it as any crazier than reincarnation or transsubstantiation. And virgin births, well we can swing that ourselves these days. Was it Arthur C. Clarke that said something about sufficiently advanced technology being indistinguishable from magic to those who don't understand it?

-CK

Soil pH changes all day long, and according to changes in moon and stars, according to scientific studies made by Ehrenfried Pfeiffer, a soil scientist who studied Steiner's methods. His farm is still operating. He was one of the scientists promoting no-till crops back during the Dust Bowl. He has wonderful essays on soil. Anyway, his scientific studies seem to prove that planting b y the moon and stars works and has science behind it.
I am trying out some things he recommends, and they work....making nettle tea for tomatoes, for ex.; making a humus pile of rotten logs and leaves so that I always have plenty humus.
He has all sorts of interesting info in his books on soil and making compost. I am thinking I will learn all I can about the biodynamic method.
I also love Sepp Holzer and Fukuoaka [but my seed balls crumbled, haha].

I'd love a brief overview on the technical aspects of biodynamics if there is one, or we could have a discussion here. I've heard about nettle tea for tomatoes. What other specific preparations are there, and for what applications?

-CK

chris, I will post a reply tomorrow. I am no expert on this topic. I can go through Pfeiffer's book and givbe you an idea what it is about. Much of it is highly technical studies that only an agronomist could appreciate! He has other books which explain the science behind planting by the stars. I don't have his other books, but I want to order them from his farm up north. His farm or farms were in Va. or NY, I think. If you search, his name comes right up on Google.
One thing I recall that is useful is his emphasis on soil structure. I think he said, you need to concentrate on getting a good soil structure by adding lots of humus to soil, and not worrying so much about pH. So I went out in the woods and piled up rotten logs and limbs and leaves. You have to be careful robbing logs of humus because the logs are full of hornets sometimes, or snakes, and/or are food for woodpeckers. I decided to make my own leaf pile for that reason.
I am going to a program on planting by the heavens next week. It will be taught by a Cherokee friend's husband. I think he is also part Indian. I will report back on that.

The problem I have with this system invented by Rudolf Steiner is that while he was one of the first to point out problems with conventional farming methods, his views on problems of
cows And bees were revolutionery for exemple
His solution to these problems were obtained by talking to his Spirit guide....
His Spirit guide seems to suggest a mixture of established folk wisdom ( i have nô issue with that Thousands of years worth of experiance) And somethings that seem to come out of thin air. The latter I do have an issue with.

Also I worry about who is running the show as vétilla folks seem to set themselves up at experts And charge lots for teaching this stuff

David

Also Steiner was a proponant of eugenic therory in humans , am not so keen on that either

Hey David,

Where it comes to the practice of eugenics, I'm with you. At the same time, I can understand the drive to ameliorate humanity. I just don't think that doing it that way is worth the cost. I'm also Canadian, but of Polish descent, so not exactly a proponent of the master race theory.

I am not going to denegrate someone else's beliefs because they seem frivolous to me; I was raised, and in some respects, still am, Catholic, if it is possible to consider oneself so while having reservations about some of the practical implications of doctrine (opposition to birth-control/condoms for any reason). Most of wicca appeals to me, largely because of the strong respect for the earth it engenders, something largely lacking from Catholic policy.

But I would like to understand the nuts and bolts of biodynamics, not only compost and innoculant recipies, but planting schedules and the reason behind them. I'd also like to be able to figure out why planting according to the moon might work in a biological context.

-CK

http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/Agri1958/Ag1958_index.html

I always think its best to go right to the begining
So here is a link to the man himself

David

And an alternative view
http://biodynamicshoax.wordpress.com/2010/06/01/introduction/

Let me know what you think after reading both

David

Chris, I just spent half an hour posting a reply, and it doesn't show up here. Maybe Paul has to review them first. I tried to upload photos and edit my reply to remove typos, and it didn't work.

Greta Fields wrote:
Maybe Paul has to review them first. I tried to upload photos and edit my reply to remove typos, and it didn't work.

Greta, there's no reviewing round here
Feel free to try again, and if it still doesn't work, it'd really help to post something here, and the people that know about that stuff can have a look.

First, thanks to Paul Wheaton for the non-biasing gesture , including bio-dynamics into the dialog.
Since my own intro to BD , decades ago, there are still rumours, falsehoods and misinterpretations conferred onto its genesis and practises.

I have recently sought to learn more about perma-culture and to incorporate both in my own gardening project and especially in an intending community project in northern ontario.
About a month ago, i was invited to present a BD intro to a 100-hour permaculture workshop with about 25 keen participants, in Toronto.
Ironically, the same phrase came up there as in this thread....While considering anything, especially something unfamiliar ,it's wise to suspend ones' disbelief about it sufficiently to discern its premises.
BD properly done complements anything to do with living entities, and enabling nutrient rich food was/is central to its mandate .

Chris Kott: i co-ordinate with others, a BD community garden in north toronto, in case you are interested in connecting , and/[color=green] or were you part of that workshop by "GardenJane" and Jillian Hovey?.... cheers.[/color]

I was not, but I'd love any information you can send my way. Really glad to know that people are doing this stuff. Do you guys go the whole nine yards (innoculants, planting according to a biodynamic schedule, what else?)?

Oh, on a related note, my favourite winery is Southbrook, certified biodynamic by Pro-Cert., and I really like their Connect Red, which is only sold as organic, but whatever.

-CK

It's our 10th year in that space about 1 1/2 acres. and membership is open to anyone interested in learning BD.
Each year there are newbies , so there is always an overlapping of shared know-how.
We do the best we can with our situation, using the calendar/cycles, applying the herbal preparations, BD compost,etc. There are several other gardeners/farmers out in the country who don't have the same restrictions as to how we manage our leased land.

Yes, we are friends of southbrook, and they provided the wine for our annual wine and cheese evening at the guelph organic conference both last years now.

Since co-founding this , i'm now mainly one of the organizing advisors, and so don't know if this link will give you further clues , ( since i don't use facebook) but it's a start,( if you use facebook) :

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Carrville-Community-Garden/168029616582112

I am a Biodynamic farmer. Though you all might be interested to learn what this means, to me. Here is a little rundown of how Biodynamics permeates my farm-

Planting by the moon makes sense when you consider its gravitational influence. I grew up surfing, wathching the moon pulling the seas back and forth with profound consequences for the qualities of the waves. In farming, the moon's pull can encourage downward or upward growth. By timing the germination of our seeds to be in harmony with either the rising or the descending force of the moon, we make life that much easier for the little sprouts. Similarly, the timing of fertilization can boost its effect on either the root growth or fruit development, by working with moon cycles. As I tell people, the moon is important, but certainly it is secondary to the sun. Try planting tomatoes on a fruit day in January. The sun is the king and the moon is the queen. You cant put the cart before the horse, but when both forces are working for your objective, the results are supreme. The moon is too influential on the water of this planet to disregard its effects on water-based life.

Our farm is treated as a single super organism, the whole living farm organism. Just like a complete ecosystem functions as a coherent whole, so does our farm. The balance of plants, fungi, and animals is key to the total health of the system, and the individual health of our cows, carrots, and apples. I try to step back and take a bigger view of the farm, like a satelite birds-eye view that lets me manage the larger whole. Healthy individuals reside in healthy systems. The cycling of water, nutrients, consciousness are not unrelated to each individual on the farm. We may work with individual bricks to build a temple, but their collective organization results in something greater.

Compost is more than its chemical analysis. Biology, for that matter, is more than its material components. We cannot measure and quantify everything that is a part of life as we know it. So we utilize the unseen, microbial world. The various compost preparations, BD 500-508 are not voodoo, they are microbial innoculants. When the microbial life of the soil is optimized, mineral compounds are transformed in subtle ways that makes them suddenly assimilatable to our plants. The chemical analysis may show the same number of phosphorous molecules per gram, but their form is changed, their electromagnetic charge is altered, and they become more conducive to incorporation in farm life. Biodynamic compost both adds mineral material to our soil, and adds the boilogical agents that make these minerals more available to our plants.

In ecology, the sum is more than just the total of its parts. The team is more than just the contributions of its individuals. One clutch relief pitcher can be the difference between championship or failure. Sometimes a very small amount of diversity can result in a very large outward effect. So we plant companion plants, so that our fields look like a healthy ecosystem. It does not have to be overwhelmingly diverse, just skillfully varied. We dont know why it works, but we follow the eternally wise example of mother nature. A few parsley plants to root deeply around our tomatoes add something unquantifiable to the health of the system. Just like a few oak trees in our clover fields, or burdock growing in the greenhouse. The effects are not linear, they are dynamic!

Large herds of grazing mammals have long been identified as enriching the soils that they leave behind. Bison on the plains, buffalo in Africa, these are our models. So we utilize the cow in the same way, rotated around our farm with large rest periods between impacts. The soils are fertilized, innoculated, and trampled. These cycles leave behind more rich soil than they started with. And we enjoy the fruits of cattle raising, milk and meat as gifts for our proper stewardship.

There is always room to learn more about this wonderous pursuit called farming. There are things I read that I dont agree with. Rudolf Steiner is a man, who lived long ago in a far off land. His esoteric theories dont have to have any bearing on my understanding of agriculture. You dont have to be a Steiner student to practice Biodynamics faithfully; I am not. Whatever umbrella group you identify with, you can choose which parts you embrace. People that construct some Biodynamic straw man to disagree with have their own problems to sort out, in my experience. Diversity of opinions are good for the whole, just like we have here in Permaculture. Biodynamics is just the same, it means something different to every individual. Let's hope it is always that way.

I look forward to sharing and collaborating more with regards to Biodynamics. It is another tool we can use to produce healthy food and a healthy Earth. All good things-

I just view it as intellectual dishonesty to state that there are some things we cannot know. I think it is more truthful to say that science is not there yet. There was a time we didn't know what the sun was or why it did what it did. The scientific process wasn't inadequate to the task of explaining it; we just hadn't gotten there yet.

Practically speaking, I imagine ther are a lot of things you do that I would love to look at. I think biomimicry is the simplest problem-solving tool I have come across.

I would love to see the whole biodynamic theory of gravitation thing. I have only ever seen it described as an optimisation of cosmic energies, which is easy to dismiss as mystic bunk (not making a judgement, just assessing how most people read it).

-CK

Well spoken Adam Klaus - bravo! I am a biological and ecological scientist by training and in spirit. And -well - I never paid much attention to biodynamics. Recognition that there are phenomena outside the range of human and technological perception is an honest admission of the limits of science and/or religion. Intuition is useful. Who knows what perceptions we mere homosapiens have lost over evolutionary time?

Carry on
Karhy J.

Adam, could you go through more about the nuts-and-bolts of what you do as a biodynamic farmer? The whole mimicking an ecosystem thing resounds over most of permaculture from what I've read. I would be especially interested to know how composting is different for you than it is in a typical backyard composter.

I have read, though only briefly, about a handful of plants that are used in innoculant preparations, I think some of them include dandelion, valerian, and chamomile. Why are these specific plants significant? Are they nutrient accumulators of specific kinds? How many of these are there and how do you use them?

And what's the deal with the cow's horn? Does the keratin or calcium or some other component of the horn host the appropriate microbiology? Is it food for the critters, or does it provide space/shelter, like the tiny voids in biochar?

You don't happen to have links to this info, or a booklist I could browse, do you? I am a voracious reader (pun intended).

You also mentioned companion planting. Could you give some examples of what works well for you? I am adding parsely to my tomato guild with basil, oregano, and peppers, so it is good to have some early support in favour of that idea. Is is fair to say that you consider polyculture an integral part of biodynamics? Is that just a personal view, or could it be said to apply to biodynamics as a whole?

Also, foliar sprays, teas, innoculations, that bit with the ground-up quartz. Do you do any of this? Again, recipes would be good, if you have links to them.

I try to buy as much biodynamic stuff as I can, but the lack of availablility makes it more feasible to grow my own. Any help is greatly appreciated.

-CK

Chris-
Biodynamics is a system and a philosophy that works for me. I cant speak to anything more universal or scientific than that. When you start farming in earnest, you find what works for you, and that is a beautiful thing.

I tell people, I am concerned about 'What'. 'Why' is a question that I dont care about. I want to know 'what' works, and leave the mystery of 'why' to those with more time. I want to farm successfully, not justify my methods. 'What' is enough for me.

If you genuinely want to learn more, great. There is a relevant thread, 'Best Book for Learning about Biodynamics' that you might find at the top of the Biodynamic forum. I made a good suggestion there for a book by E. Pfeifer. All his works are excellent. He was a teacher and a scholar, whereas I am a humble farmer. I will point out the moon to you, but not going to fly you there. Good luck.

Here's a link to a pdf that might answer a few questions - Demeter Association - Biodynamic Farm Standard

manfred everly said
First, thanks to Paul Wheaton for the non-biasing gesture , including bio-dynamics into the dialog.
Since my own intro to BD , decades ago, there are still rumours, falsehoods and misinterpretations conferred onto its genesis and practises.

Would you care to elaborate ?

David

Thanks, Adam. I am no scientist myself. I try to learn from EVERYBODY, and especially people on here that I disagree with. I mentioned Pfeiffer, not to bash anybody over the head with science, but to help others keep an open mind. Pfeiffer showed that soil pH changed according to changes in moon and stars./
Some things just seem to be common sense. I kept having trouble getting hollyhocks to germinate, and one day I read that they need light and must not be covered. Well, duh, that is why nature made the seeds so flat and thin. I quit covering them and they came up. Same with a lot of daisy seed. They just need to be pressed on top of soil.
I am curious where Adam's courses are given. I think Pfeiffer's farm still gives courses. The Cherokee course did not take place here as planned, so I can't report back on that. I think it will be rescheduled. I don't know HOW to plant by the heavens yet, and I never read about Steiner.
I read somewhere that bison learned how to return to former grazing grounds by following shifting star patterns. But when we try to make them stay in Yellowstone Park, they run out of food and aren't allowed to move on to new grazing grounds. I think we made a big mistake replacing cows with bison.

David Livingston wrote:manfred everly said
First, thanks to Paul Wheaton for the non-biasing gesture , including bio-dynamics into the dialog.
Since my own intro to BD , decades ago, there are still rumours, falsehoods and misinterpretations conferred onto its genesis and practises.

Would you care to elaborate ?

David

David,... not sure which part you mean. However, if the latter, i'd rather address them if/when/as they arise. No point in listing the ones i've heard, in various circles, effectively further to polarize.
....manfred

It may go without saying that folks may assign differing meanings to some words,and subsequently attach characterizations to them which are unacceptable to others which cherish their own meaning. When this is discovered as likely, there can be a reticence to engage further , because the meanings form the premises from which they view the world. So, necessarily in the interest of enlightened dialog, a more tentative, yet substantial mode may be adopted to quantify/qualify premises which are pertinent to genuine interest in the topic or query.
Some such words might be "substance", or spirit, or forces, spiritual science, life, death, incarnation, being, nature, I , Ch-Ching, etc.
Or "all is vibration". What is real? harmony? love?

In order to address the simplest thing completely, from a wholistic view, it would take volumes of dialog....hence all the lectures and books written on the exploration of biodynamics or any other relevant area of life on earth or elsewhere. Without sufficient basis of shared premise, it's no wonder that characterizations fill an impatient void, and sometimes create a more insurmountable impediment to under-standing to the degree of the energy invested into it.
At least that's what i have experienced thus far generally...and so seek to pre-empt or avoid.
Then there's dynamic context and criteria....all to be defined for comprehensive grocking.

Anyway, to point to one tiny part of one entity briefly... the horn, ....a cow's horn (or a buffalo horn) with 3-plus birthrings on the lower portion of it....not a steer's horn...because the (preferably BD-raised) cow is the ultimate popular exemplar of primarily digestion, and fertility, fully grounded on the electric earth, peacefully processing volumes through several stomachs, rendering substantive form more palatable to subsequent participants in the nourishment cycles.
Its horns are indeed accumulator/antennae.. channels for cosmic forces finding their complementary way through a living entity of complex content , towards the earth-surface and below.
The cowhorn is much thicker/solid at its ends than a steer-horn, and this concentration of focussed silica connected to the blood and endocrine systems enables optimum fertility and (enlivened) calcium ... not to mention the obvious complement in milk, when not cooked to alteration .

To further enhance the natural flow of energy, the emptied horn(s) are filled with the processed substance from the other end and laid below frost in the earth, arced upward to continue holding, intensifying, embodying the essence of fertility in the substance.
Once this is imprinted during the active-earth cycle of fall-spring, its potency is available to transfer via lemniscular, alternating vortexial stirring of water, and applied directly to the soil on a calendar-appropriate late aft/eve,...preferably cloudy day. Its potency is only minutely describable as inocculant, because it is essentially the energy pattern which is conferred to the (organized) water . In all such activities, mindful intent and content of consciousness are not a small factor in the outcomes.
But , sometimes simply for brevity of explanation, a microbial mindset can accept the principle, or even as homeopathic. (The same applies to compost piles with other preparations similarly imbued.)
This is not complete by any means , for paragraphs can and have been written on any single aspect of the above, and likewise with the atmospheric/complementary half of this duality of optimum growth/cosmic-nutrient parameters. In short, such measures and perspective are the reasons that it has also been referred to as quantum agri-culture.

Y'all can now roll your eyes... , or role your I's ...manfreed

i reserve the right to correct,clarify,resolve and recant.

Thanks Manfred- that was deep.
I really enjoyed your articulate explaination of the cow's horn. You went way beyond my comprehension in a very enlightening way.
Biodynamics is such a wonderous perscpective on life and farming. Please share more when the time allows.

If you answer again Manfred, I would be interested in knowing the source of the information about energy patterns. This is not the same as fractals, is it? I keep running across allusions to the importance of energy forms, like vortexes, and I don't know what it is called or what to read about.
Horns are interesting subjects. I noticed how deer rip my butternut trees to shreds, but the trees grow up healthy here, and bear nuts, whereas butternuts in many areas have a disease and do not bear nuts. I wondered if the deer inoculate the bark with some anti-fungal property or something.
Anyway, I quit worrying about my deer-scarred butternuts.

Are we discussing energy matrices here? As in, materials with specific configurations, down to the molecular level, that channel energy, or allow for it to accumulate.

Also, if the horn is acting as an energy matrix, is it possible to use landforms, natural or ones we put in ourselves, to funnel/divert/channel that energy? Is that suggested at all that anyone knows of?

-CK

Chris Kott wrote: is it possible to use landforms, natural or ones we put in ourselves, to funnel/divert/channel that energy? Is that suggested at all that anyone knows of?

-CK

I'm not sure about this being a part of biodynamics but my friend uses natural objects to create good energy in the garden. He is the one that got me started with gardening by the moon.

Feng Shuei is the arranging of spaces for proper energy flow. Could they be compatible ideas?

-CK

Chris Kott wrote:Feng Shuei is the arranging of spaces for proper energy flow. Could they be compatible ideas?

-CK

And location. This is going to sound a little wacky but this year I moved my garden to the opposite side of the property. The energy actually feels better in the new location. The new area is so relaxing that I am going to create a little spot for me to hang out.

Feng Shui is not only about the elements but location and direction. I am going to have to read up on that more.

Greta Fields wrote:If you answer again Manfred, I would be interested in knowing the source of the information about energy patterns. This is not the same as fractals, is it? I keep running across allusions to the importance of energy forms, like vortexes, and I don't know what it is called or what to read about.
Horns are interesting subjects. I noticed how deer rip my butternut trees to shreds, but the trees grow up healthy here, and bear nuts, whereas butternuts in many areas have a disease and do not bear nuts. I wondered if the deer inoculate the bark with some anti-fungal property or something.
Anyway, I quit worrying about my deer-scarred butternuts.

Hi Greta, If you mean the flow of energy or cosmic in-flu-ence thru the horns, this was outlined by Steiner in various texts. (There is more about the other end and how it all works together.) And the archetypal horn shape is no mistake as a form....custom-made for that entity. What a travesty that they cut them off conventionally, denying them fullflow and genetic consequences....as evidenced by how genetically challenged cows'horns develop if left to grow out....even back, into their own skulls.
You may also have heard of created "flow-forms" for the water...forming cascading gentler vortices for the purpose of larger volumes instead of hand stirring...however that usually involves an electric pump.
I'm not sure about fractals according to the definition. Maybe holographic might be closer?

manfred- quick question for your knowledge-

what are your thoughts on the bull's horns? I fully appreciate the perceiving nature of the cow's horns, and their vital role in the life and health of a cow.

For my own selfish concerns over farm safety, I have been using dehorning paste on my bulls. For male animals that I plan to harvest young as beefs, I let their horns be. But for my bull, who I plan to have for 4-5 years, I have been preventing the growth of their horns. Not something I feel great about, truly.

I never hear much discussion of the meaning and value of the bull's horns. My understanding is that they are solid, unlike the blood-filled cow horns. Is this right? I have been told that whereas cow horns are remarkable organs of perception and communication, bull horns are basically large fingernails used as weapons. This seems a bit callous, but I dont know anything myself. I would really appreciate your thoughts on this subject.
Thanks for your teaching