Making Grain-Free Sour Dough Rise

I'm trying to make grain-free sourdough bread. I'd like it to rise. I've read that using xanthan gum or guar gum will help with that. However, they are gut irritants (for me) and I'd like substitutes. Any suggestions?

I feel there is more information needed in order to give you a good answer.

What kind of flour are you using?  What kind of yeast?  

Why is the dough not rising?

I looked at your topics and found this thread:

https://permies.com/t/161842/kitchen/Sourdough-Frustration

I am assuming your questions were not resolved at that time.

It sounds like maybe part of the problem might be the cassava flour.

Are you using a recipe that is specific for that kind of flour?

Anne Miller wrote:I feel there is more information needed in order to give you a good answer.

What kind of flour are you using?  What kind of yeast?  

Why is the dough not rising?

I looked at your topics and found this thread:

https://permies.com/t/161842/kitchen/Sourdough-Frustration

I am assuming your questions were not resolved at that time.

It sounds like maybe part of the problem might be the cassava flour.

Are you using a recipe that is specific for that kind of flour?

I'm using Cassava or Tapioca for flour.
I'm using "wild" yeast with a supplement of kefir yeast.
My source recipe calls for using rice flour and coconut flour with some cassava flour as well. That recipe has rice flour, which I'm avoiding and din't work that well in any event.

Assuming sourdough is acidic would baking soda or baking powder make it rise?
Like in sourdough pancakes?

Looking at the flours you are using, it strikes me as a very low-protein mix of flours. Without protein, you may not have enough structure to hold bubbles and give the dough some rise.

Depending on your diet, you could try folding in whipped egg white or aquafaba just before baking to fluff up the end product.

Yesterday I checked King Arthur's flour as they are a very reputable company for flour.  That is where I buy mine.

Ideal for all gluten-free recipes, our carefully tested blend of white rice flour, whole grain brown rice flours, tapioca starch, and potato starch yields baked goods with no grittiness or aftertaste. Non-dairy and non-GMO, our flour (made without xanthan gum) is the choice of gluten-free scratch bakers everywhere.

https://shop.kingarthurbaking.com/items/gluten-free-all-purpose-flour

Their Blend with cassava:

Our blend of almond, cassava, and coconut flours is an equal substitute for conventional all-purpose flour in any non-yeasted recipe. With 4 grams each of protein and fiber per serving, it’s a nutritional powerhouse. It has three simple ingredients: almonds, cassava, and coconut and no preservatives. That’s it! Just the good stuff.

https://shop.kingarthurbaking.com/items/measure-for-measure-paleo-flour

As you can see the cassava blend is recommended for non-yeasted recipes.

So maybe this helps explain what the problem is.

I thought the problem might have something to do with the blend.  That is why I checked with King Arthur's blends.

Though if you know someone who is using the recipe you are using with good results then maybe it just needs more experimenting.

It is my hope that this will get resolved.

Anne Miller wrote:Yesterday I checked King Arthur's flour as they are a very reputable company for flour.  That is where I buy mine.

Ideal for all gluten-free recipes, our carefully tested blend of white rice flour, whole grain brown rice flours, tapioca starch, and potato starch yields baked goods with no grittiness or aftertaste. Non-dairy and non-GMO, our flour (made without xanthan gum) is the choice of gluten-free scratch bakers everywhere.

https://shop.kingarthurbaking.com/items/gluten-free-all-purpose-flour

Their Blend with cassava:

Our blend of almond, cassava, and coconut flours is an equal substitute for conventional all-purpose flour in any non-yeasted recipe. With 4 grams each of protein and fiber per serving, it’s a nutritional powerhouse. It has three simple ingredients: almonds, cassava, and coconut and no preservatives. That’s it! Just the good stuff.

https://shop.kingarthurbaking.com/items/measure-for-measure-paleo-flour

As you can see the cassava blend is recommended for non-yeasted recipes.

So maybe this helps explain what the problem is.

I thought the problem might have something to do with the blend.  That is why I checked with King Arthur's blends.

Though if you know someone who is using the recipe you are using with good results then maybe it just needs more experimenting.

It is my hope that this will get resolved.

I'm allergic to almonds and wish to avoid grains including  rice.
So that flour won't work:(

N Thomas wrote:I'm allergic to almonds and wish to avoid grains including  rice.
So that flour won't work:(

I was not recommending them,

I was trying to show you how they blend their flours and what they said about cassava.

! thought the problem might have something to do with the blend.  That is why I checked with King Arthur's blends.

Though if you know someone who is using the recipe you are using with good results then maybe it just needs more experimenting.

It is my hope that this will get resolved.

Anne Miller wrote:

N Thomas wrote:I'm allergic to almonds and wish to avoid grains including  rice.
So that flour won't work:(

I was not recommending them,

I was trying to show you how they blend their flours and what they said about cassava.

! thought the problem might have something to do with the blend.  That is why I checked with King Arthur's blends.

Though if you know someone who is using the recipe you are using with good results then maybe it just needs more experimenting.

It is my hope that this will get resolved.

Thanks for clarifying. Sorry I misunderstood.

Wow, these responses show incredible tenacity! Here's another try.
N Thomas wrote:

I'm using Cassava or Tapioca for flour.

So ingredient 1 is  Cassava or Tapioca (aka: yucca, manioc, pari...)
Like Craig Howard said, baking powder plus acid will produce bubbles.
You can get your acid from the waste products of yeasts that you have chosen:

I'm using "wild" yeast with a supplement of kefir yeast.

What does your "wild" yeast eat?
What does your kefir yeast eat?  
Can you eat what those yeasts eat (digest) after they have eaten it? In other words, can you eat fermented fruit (since you said no grains)? Can you eat fermented dairy?
Can you eat baking powder or soda?
Answer these questions and you will receive one or more fermented bread recipes.

If you're just looking for alternatives to xanthan and guar to experiment with, there's carrageenan, agar agar, and gelatin. I think you can get less processed forms of carrageenan that are healthier. I've never used it, so don't know how the different forms compare. And I've never used any of those in bread, so I can't give you any suggestions on how to use them.

If your bread still isn't cooking in the centre, you could try making a deep slash lengthwise down the middle of the loaf before baking. You'd need a thick batter for that to work, though.

Amy Gardener wrote:Wow, these responses show incredible tenacity! Here's another try.
N Thomas wrote:

I'm using Cassava or Tapioca for flour.

So ingredient 1 is  Cassava or Tapioca (aka: yucca, manioc, pari...)
Like Craig Howard said, baking powder plus acid will produce bubbles.

[I use baking soda in my recipes. I don't use baking powder because I wish to avoid eating aluminum (sodium aluminum sulfate or similar in the ingredients).

You can get your acid from the waste products of yeasts that you have chosen:

I'm using "wild" yeast with a supplement of kefir yeast.

What does your "wild" yeast eat?
[I assume it will eat rice flour. My recipe is based on use of rice flour. I sub in cassava in its place.]
What does your kefir yeast eat?
[It will eat brown sugar and milk and be robust. It can eat coconut milk but it will weaken on that diet.]
Can you eat what those yeasts eat (digest) after they have eaten it? In other words, can you eat fermented fruit (since you said no grains)? Can you eat fermented dairy?
[I can eat fruit fine, excepting oranges.  I can't eat dairy.]
Can you eat baking powder or soda?
[I prefer baking soda only.]
Answer these questions and you will receive one or more fermented bread recipes.

Okay, the ingredient list for your bread so far is:

Cassava (aka, tapioca or yuca or manioc or pari)
Arrowroot
Baking soda
Eggs
Fruit (excluding oranges)
Wild yeast
Kefir grains
Olive oil

Please confirm that these are okay.

One question that you didn’t answer: “Can you eat fermented dairy?”
You said that the kefir “will eat brown sugar and milk” so you will have to feed them to keep them alive or keep buying new kefir (that’s a complex culture that includes yeasts and milk eating bacteria https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kefir
Thinking specifically about the kefir, can you eat what remains after the kefir colony eats the milk? In other words, since you will feed your kefir brown sugar and milk, it will digest those food items and expel some additional delicious ingredients that will greatly improve your bread. Before you answer definitively, consult your doctor! With fermented dairy, you get fermented cheese, and with that you get the puffy amazing bread, pan de yuca.

Amy Gardener wrote:Okay, the ingredient list for your bread so far is:

Cassava (aka, tapioca or yuca or manioc or pari)
Arrowroot
Baking soda
Eggs
Fruit (excluding oranges)
Wild yeast
Kefir grains
Olive oil

Please confirm that these are okay.

One question that you didn’t answer: “Can you eat fermented dairy?”
You said that the kefir “will eat brown sugar and milk” so you will have to feed them to keep them alive or keep buying new kefir (that’s a complex culture that includes yeasts and milk eating bacteria https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kefir
Thinking specifically about the kefir, can you eat what remains after the kefir colony eats the milk? In other words, since you will feed your kefir brown sugar and milk, it will digest those food items and expel some additional delicious ingredients that will greatly improve your bread. Before you answer definitively, consult your doctor! With fermented dairy, you get fermented cheese, and with that you get the puffy amazing bread, pan de yuca.

Hi Amy,
I can't eat fermented dairy. (I occasionally place the kefir grains in cow milk to keep them robust but rinse them in distilled water after to get the dairy off.)
I do feed the kefir grains regularly. The kefir I put in bread is a small sample taken from larger batches.
Doctors being doctors, I expect they will say to play it safe and just not use dairy in any bread I make.

Tonight, a few friends are coming over and one is in a similar situation: no nuts, no grains, no dairy. Really rough situation! I will bake this recipe today with fresh rosemary.
I'll skip the teaspoon baking powder and replace it with 1/4 t soda (so 3/4 t in all). The sour flavor (acid) will come from the apple cider vinegar. All the other ingredients are on your list N Thomas!
https://bakeitpaleo.com/rosemary-cassava-bread

Hi,

You might want to check out this post of mine and the whole thread it's in about gluten-free bread baking. There's a lot of info there that might help you. Spoiler: I suggest psyllium husks, prepared as in that thread. And if you're OK with starch, starch (tapioca starch, potato starch, etc.) apparently improves the texture a lot though I've always wanted to avoid it.

You probably already know this, but an effective sourdough really has to be "trained" to eat the flour you are going to end up using. If you get a sourdough sponge going successfully (which often takes a couple of weeks, and maybe a few false starts for "weird" flours as you need to use in gluten-free baking), and then you switch flours on it to make the bread, it might not take to the new flour at all.

Another thing is an ingredient that will stand up to high-temperature oven baking and will allow air bubbles to form. Gluten performs this function in regular breads, it's very stretchy, doesn't poop out at oven temps, and will surround a little bubble of sourdough-fermented air, keeping the air in and allowing the bread to rise. If you can't make the air stay put inside the bubbles, it will escape and you get a brick. So that's why some people use the gums if they're not allergic (xanthan, guar, and locust bean) and also some starch or starches.  Lots of the things you'd think would work for this don't, they stop holding things together at high temps (not sure but I suspect arrowroot is one of these). So I say try the psyllium husks as an addition to your flour mix. All this takes patience and lots of experimentation to get right.

Go ahead and experiement with bread making like this if you like, but I have a simpler suggestion too that may or may not meet your goals. Just make quick breads. They're more like a cake or crumbly cornbread in texture, but they hit the spot. They use chemical leavening (something like baking powder) instead of sourdough or bread yeast. I think you can make a perfectly good aluminum-free baking powder from good old bicarbonate of soda and cream of tartar or any other acid ingredient, better if it's dry which is why cream of tartar works well. (C of T is a leftover of winemaking.) There's a chemical reaction between the two, the batter rises and presto, it's very reliable. It's not the texture of sourdough bread, but it can be really delicious. Any recipe that calls for baking powder will do, just change out the flours to something you can use. Some psyllium husks can help even in these recipes if you want more rise, and it will help it be less crumbly, but then you're back in experimentation terrirtory again. Just my two cents, I hope you get some delicious baking going!