Walk behind tractor

I mentioned that I wasn't very happy with our walk behind tiller, and my wife, surprisingly, gave me approval to check out walk behind tractors. I've looked at BCS and Grillo so far.
Important features for me are:

ease of use. (Don't want to be fighting with it)

attachments. (I will but the tiller now, but want to get other attachments in the future as our farm grows.

I only want to buy it once.

Our budget is <$4000.
Thoughts or suggestions?

Hi John,

I once looked at walking tractors.  I was drawn to the BCS 852/853 series, but I think that exceeds your $4k budget.  The BCS certainly has all the bells and whistles, but the larger Grillo's might be the better bang for your buck.  

Incidentally, does that $4k include an implement?  And which one would it be?  Also, what other attachments would you be looking at?  This matters in the final calculation when you look up the HP needs for these handy little machines.

Eric

Quick check on the Grillo line:

85D $2760
Differentiated Axel
10hp (decent but not top HP maybe ok?)
Only 2 mph forward working speed (perhaps bad for mowing)

107D $3200-$3500 depending on engine and manual vs electric start
Differentiated Axel
Steering brakes (even easier to handle)
11-11.5HP (marginally better than 85D)
Transport speed, works at walking speed in both forward and reverse

It looks like a tiller will set you back about $650 for a 22 inch, $710 for a 27 inch

So the purchase range looks like:

$3410 for the 85D plus 22" tiller

Just about $4K on the nose for a 107D plus a 27" tiller

It looks like you could afford a 107D with either tiller, but just that.  

If you were asking my opinion, I would go on the smaller end and stay under budget, but those steering breaks would be nice to have.  At any rate, those are my personal thoughts.

Eric

Hi Eric,

I have to disagree based  on  John’s “ I only want to buy it once statement” as well as his comment on fighting with it.   If there is anyway to go over the budget, I suspect he will appreciate the higher end machine.  Incidentally, I have never used that brand. I am only going by the information in this thread. Fortunately, this is his decision and not one I have to make.

Fair points John,

The larger machine plus a tiller JUST comes in under his budget (and that is without an electric starter--I don't know if this is important).  The HP difference is minimal to trivial.  But the steering breaks and the full range transmission would be some nice features.  

My expanded thoughts would be that the tractor sizing would have to be based on the future implement sizing, but at this point we have no idea what these requirements are.

Eric

If I recall, the BCS machines used an automotive-style clutch.....??   My vision here is that if the Kohler or other engines produced for the BCS are not readily available in the general engine domain, then one might be stuck with the horsepower rating offered at the time of purchase because of the specialized mating of engine and transmission.  However, if this is not the case, then the unit might be re-powered in the future with a larger off-the-shelf engine for running larger implements, assuming the frame could withstand that upscaling.....  Maybe??

John,  

It’s been a while since I really looked hard at the specifics of walking tractors, but I think the BCS had a cone style clutch.  Something about that was supposed to make the clutching easier but I don’t remember why.  What I do remember is that the Grillo were both cheaper and easier to fix.

If you are thinking about buying now and upgrading the engine at some future point, I suspect that the price will be close to buying the whole tractor over again.  Don’t get me wrong, I am a big fan of buying what is affordable and upgrading in the future, but the engine wouldn’t be the place I would think about an upgrade.

And again for whatever it is worth, when I was previously looking I was seriously looking at a diesel BCS 853, but that was over $5k and the diesel is not even available anymore.  Maybe emissions?  Too bad as I heard those were great machines.  Either way I was thinking about your  $4K max budget which is why I was thinking about the 85D plus a tiller that landed comfortably in your price range.  But if you think 107D is more appropriate (and why not?) then by all means go with that one.  Or go with a BCS model if that appeals more to you.

Two other options are are some other brand.  I know the 2 wheel tractor market is not limited to Grillo and BCS but those are the only two that I know of.  The other option is to go used.  Earthtools occasionally has used machines so maybe that would be an option.

So many thoughts might not be helpful so take or leave whatever you think is appropriate.

Eric

Since we have found a suitable plot of Land I told my Thai wife that I love these walk behind tractors.

I am a biker all my life and rode many Customs and Choppers, hence one of these one Piston engine machines - at every tree an ignition - with Ape Hanger and forward mounted Pedals is just what my mind recommended me.  Easy Farmer on his Ride.

BUT my wife told me the reason why it has to be a Kubota 4 Wheel Tractor. (Real Pity)

These walk behind tractor's harsh vibrations will grind down your bones and joints and most Thai Farmers who use these machines have the Raynaud's disease or also called White Finger Syndrome...
Not good if you are 59 years old as I am, some bones need just the last tickling and then its time for replacement...

May be I change the steering wheel of the Kobota tractor.
Just put a 6 inch steering wheel on, shorten the springs and have a low rider that you can even operate with handcuffs on...

I've used a BCS for several seasons on a market garden farm, can't remember the exact model but it's a diesel so one of the larger ones...85???something?? The engine hasn't been available on a new BCS for several years now.

While certain tasks are a breeze, like using the flail mower, there are still plenty of times when fighting the machine takes place.

Running a rotary plow in rough ground is the hardest thing on the body it will really wear you out! It's critical though in establishing and maintaining raised beds/aisle ways in the fields. It is still easier and quicker than doing bed prep by hand.

If you get a power harrow, it's heavy and that can be difficult to navigate around the garden.

Changing out the attachments doesn't always go smoothly, we do our best to keep things cleaned and lubed but sometimes you just have to shove/bump/twist/shout to get things off and on!

They are tough machines, and the work they get done is precise so a little fight here and there is worth the reliable results.

**The bigger the better in my book when it comes to these 2 wheel tractors, the options on what they can run at the PTO depend a lot on overall power and weight of the machine. None of them are so big that they would cause problem in most gardens. In fact, the larger ones usually have adjustable wheel sizes and widths to suit the planting area**

I've never once wished the tractor was any smaller while running it for any farm/garden task.

OK. first, let me say wow, I didn't get any notifications or emails on this thread, nor did I have any notification, so I don't know what is up with that, but I'm glad I got responses.
2nd, and I'll try to go in order.

Eric, Yes the 853's are a bit out of my range. As it stands now, I'd get the tiller as my only attachment, but I like some of the other attachments (bed shaper, chipper, hay baler, maybe even the potato digger/shaker )

Eric, I was looking at either the 710Dw/11hp and the 732 or the 85D. I don't really NEED it, but I do plan on expanding and I don't want to dump all the money for John Deere attachments, or a new tractor (we currently have a 1025R)

John D., Personally, I would greatly appreciate a higher end machine, just like everyone who buys a crappy 2000 Honda civic would much rather have a new Cadillac. But since I  have not recently become a person with THAT KIND of disposable income, I'm stuck with a budget.

Eric, again, Yea, I'm with you. I would like for my wife to be able to use it, so differential brakes, transport speed, and a definite ease of use are big for me.

John W., Yea, I've heard some rough stuff about the clutches, so I've got some concerns about that.

Eric, Maintenance would almost certainly be done by me, so parts prices are a big thing to me. The diesel was interesting to me also, but unfortunately it is outside of my price range. I know that there are other brands, but I couldn't find any websites for them, only sold by other companies.

See, As a rider also, I understand the joints thing.

Cole, This is why I decided to make this forum thread. I could go buy the cheap one, but I don't want something that limits what I can do. I probably wouldn't be using the rotary plow, but I would be interested in things like the flail mower or bush hog.

So this whole thing is because I don't want to shell out the money for a tiller for my tractor. I like having something smaller and more nimble that I can use in tight spaces, and a tractor is not it. I could go out and buy the attachments for the tractor, but I'd probably surpass the 4k budget. I would like to be able to have enough land to grow hay on, so hay processing equipment is certainly a possibility for the future, I'm talking MINI ROUND BALES!!! I think they're cool. but yea.

OK, I finally got the time to reply to this thread.  

John, I wholly support your call to buy that small tractor.  I used to own a JD2305 and it worked wonders for me.  I sold it to my neighbor and now own a JD2038R which does even more wonders for me.  But I think I have more land than you so that sized tractor is probably perfect.

So my thoughts--read this as my thoughts only--are to go with the smaller hand tractor.  I think it will get the jobs done that you need to do and stay within budget.  I could see stretching the budget a little bit if you did not have the 4-wheel tractor, but as you do, I think the smaller 2-wheel tractor would be ideal for smaller jobs.  Although I have never used one, the Grillo 85D looks about perfect for the job.  True, you will lack steering breaks and an electric starters, but you will stay comfortably within budget.  Really it is up to you how much you want to push the budget to get the better item.  Personally, I like to wait-and-save, but if your timeframe is closer (the reason I went with the JD2305), maybe the smaller machine is better if you need to stick to budget.

And again, I am not telling you what to do, only what I would do in similar circumstances.  But given that you already have a 4-wheel tractor (and a really good one at that!) I think that you would have a nice balance of equipment.

Just my two cents,

Eric

What I am thinking about farm machinery in general in this time of growing solar energy. "Why not produce farm machinery that runs on strictly batteries, like cars? Especially if one can have one's own solar system?

John J.

Such a tractor would be a nice idea but I am sure it would be priced well above the OP’s stated price range.  Honestly I don’t even know if an equivalent commercially available machine exists.  It would be possible to perhaps make one but it would be hard to make it top the 10 HP we are talking about here.  Also, I imagine the battery would be some combination of huge, heavy and expensive.  It’s not that this idea doesn’t have merit, it does.  But rather the machines we are talking about are sufficiently powerful for the OP and fit within his budget.

By way of comparison, I am in the process of building a solar powered battery generator—mostly because I have wanted to build one for a while.  If this were about money I would simply have gone with a gas generator, but the project is fun and therefore rewarding to me.

Interesting thoughts though,

Eric

If you're just tilling and plowing, I like the idea of a walk behind 2-wheel tractor. I also like the idea of upgrading to a diesel engine. Bigger is good, until you get older. I have a BCS, but like Grillo, too. I also have a tractor with a front loader and other implements that I could almost not live without. By far and away, for me, the front loader has been the most used implement. I am older, and it allows me to accomplish a huge amount of work: hauling everything, digging and moving dirt, unloading trucks, loading trucks, lifting, an on and on. No walk behind is going to do any of that for me.

Paul,
Yea, I have the front loader on my 1025R, and I use it for everything too. Gotta unload chicken food, let me grab the tractor. Turn manure, tractor time. Need to take my old walk behind tiller across the yard to do something else but it moves so slow it's a pain to let it drive itself up a slight incline, tractor it is. It especially comes in handy with just moving stumps around. I'll dig them out, and roll (because they are too heavy for my tractor) them where I need them. My only drawback is that I don't have a large flat area and so I end up having rows end pretty close to brush, so I either have to remove the brush, or back out the way I came in, which can really mess up a row when I finally got it straight.
I also have a box blade, rear weight box w/ hitch, and I got the Steven's Garden Package this year, which is nice for doing the rows and stuff. I've always used the tiller and hand tools to build rows.

For now, I've decided, since the diesel is out of my price range, to just go with the $2 3pt tiller to go behind the tractor, and hopefully I can save enough to buy a nicer walk behind tractor next year.

OK, John, point taken, a tractor does require a certain amount of working room and a walk behind requires less. I just have the 725 BCS - nice machine that is good for tight spaces, but at my age, it is becoming quite a wrestle.

John, I got a BCS in the late '90s because I wanted a gear-driven tiller, not a belt-driven tiller.   But...

I think the most important thing about any piece of equipment is where can you take it to get it fixed?  If it's an hour away, even half an hour, that's a lot of driving, maybe through traffic.. getting parts was difficult and expensive.

It was only 18 months before the gears seized up in it through no fault of mine.  It was loud, heavy, a lot of exhaust, took up a lot of room in the shed, along with the other accessories I thought I might as well get as long as....you know how that rationale goes.  Rarely used any of them.  The tiller box is on the back side of it near your feet, and I don't like that location for a tiller.

That's when I seriously got into Permaculture and no-till, and never looked back.  I can't imagine killing all of the soil critters and mycelium/fungi that is now in my healthy soil by slamming it with giant metal teeth.  

I have a lot of mowing to do, and for that I use a large walk-behind mower that cuts at about 4 inches, then I have a pull-behind de-thatcher that I can collect the mowings and use them as mulch and in compost.

Cristo,
I, unfortunately, fully understand where you are coming from with that. I, alternatively, am looking to expand, simply in the idea of having more land, and raising a farm along with my family. There are tools that I rarely use, but, and believe me, when I need them, they do the job (like a small tiller that I only use in my wife's garden because it is easier than doing it by hand and the soil gets super compacted each year).
Paul,
I personally have always found that old people know how to do work the right way. Its not always the easiest, but it is the best way to complete the job with the least amount of work. Its time tested, tried and true. I try to do things the "old" way every year. Last year was making straw bales from wheat, the year before was growing and processing wheat (without buying any tools). This year, I don't know yet, but I learn a lot by doing it that way. If an older person, one of my elders, tells me to do something a certain way, I ask why, but I also do it that way. I've got a bad back and bad knees, gardening is not easy on my body, so easier ways of doing things is appreciated.
If anyone is interested in seeing the kind of areas I am working in for an idea of the amount of room I have to work in, check out Help me build a hedge wall, or My log of the chaos I put myself into with gardening.

Like you Cristo, my tractor's tiller attachment and BCS, Gravely, and Bradley walk behind tillers have all seen little use in recent years. Most of this property has not been tilled for over 15 years, BUT we have a mix of soils here. There is a large amount of beautiful, loamy soil that supports 6' tall grass, AND some very clayey soil where the grass struggles to grow to 8". Most of the clay domes are left intact because they support an interesting array of plants. But, the tiller use is really the only reasonable way for me to add amendments to clay areas I want to convert to "better" soil. The only other area that gets some tiller use is the fenced garden where added soil amendments are mixed into the existing soil with a tiller to save my back.

John, my garden is an acre and I have 100 feet of greenhouses, and I don't till.   I've got heavy clay soil you could bounce a shovel off of if it weren't amended.  Talk about compaction....

So for what it's worth, that's what Permaculture does, extremely well, changing the soil into healthy, noncompacted, critter-filled soil that you add amendments, like wood chips, over the top, and the soil critters do the rest.  Worms can do compacted soil 24/7 if you feed them the right thing, like hugel trenches with wood chips over the top.  It's pretty much a once-and-done thing to do trenches.  The results are so stunning, you won't believe it.

The West Coast is in the worst drought in 1200 years, they just found out, no rain for 10 months anyway, and water supplies are low, but my hugel trenches are damp with about 1/4 the water, mycelium is growing everywhere, worms are showing up en masse where those trenches are.

Have you checked out Back to Eden gardening by Paul Gautschi?   YouTube has a lot of info.

I know about the tools that don't get used a lot, and when you need one, you really need one, but $4K for one tool?  That needs maintaining, storing, oil, gear grease, tire inflation, gasoline at really annoying prices, hauling around by a vehicle to fix it?  I don't miss that at all...

:-)

I don't mean to come down too hard on this, and this is one of the major things that changed my mind, I remember when I first started looking into no-till, I found out that the depth of the tines of the tiller is always the same, and that 6" depth, or whatever is it, the soil is actually compacted by the ends of the tiller tines sliding over it again and again.   Roots hit that compacted zone and go sideways or are deterred sometimes enough to cause stress in the plants.  Think of all  the worms, millipedes, soil fungi (which facilitates the superhighway of root growth,) and soil structure, mycelium that is being killed by kicking up the soil, destroying the networks of what makes soil healthy and nutritious for us to grow in.

When people who do no-till and use wood chips say they don't have to do as much work, they aren't kidding.

:-)

Cristo, isn't going to take several decades or even several hundred years...or thousands of years for the worms, microbes, etc. to develop a rich soil that is incorporated into the clay base? Or, are you talking of building a rich soil on top of the clay base?

I have the smallest grillo a G52. it's not a fight to use it for most things, but it doesn't have the weight to go through grass roots etc. The 5hp is more than enough for the 52cm rotovator but the weight of the machine at 70kg is not enough to keep the rear end down. I tend to only use it for mixing in amendments. Full sized or even small tractors use a huge amount of space for turning and limit planting widths to their tire width.

I was glad to come to the part of the thread where no till was discussed!

I have a “smaller” BCS, and I find it a great tool to have and use.  I don’t have a tiller, I bought a rotary plow for ease of making water distribution furrows on sloping ground.  

A friend who grows for CSA and farmers market and had to move to new ground AGAIN .  He borrowed my set up, and was enormously grateful.  He said it would have taken him YEARS to accomplish what he did in a few weeks… building beds in hard abused clay.  His neighbor (same business same soil, though he had been in the same location ~5 years) then wanted to borrow my rotary plow to do the same thing….. so my friend asked to buy the plow (not willing to lend what is not his)… I said yes😊 and charged him half what I paid, knowing full well that I would be able to borrow it when he wasn’t using it .  And he does the maintenance on my BCS, the Honda generator I use to run my milking machine othe small engines …. it’s in good hands.

It’s a great tractor, and though I am more interested in no till and soil microbiology, even so, some times I need the help of a machine…. My knees are now in their 8th decade, and I try not to use them for jack hammer type work any more.

I don’t have shoulder fatigue or reynauds but there are additional factors in developing that condition, not just vibration, and there are personal habits that enhance the development as well, gripping too tight for too long a period of time for example, and not doing hand extension exercises in between sessions on the BCS

I’ve heard my point of view countered with varying degrees of respect.  The idea put forth that a person HAS to keep going, push themself, muscle through, power through.  IMO Those are explanations for the consequences of personal choices, which appeal more to some individuals than others.

I guess it’s easier for me to believe as I do, arthritis free at my age, than for someone who has developed disagreeable conditions and symptoms.  I only bring it up as a suggestion of something to be aware of and observe in others’ habits and in our own.

My strategies involve changing activities, switching back and forth to use both sides of my body, using opposing muscle sets, maintaining symmetry , being aware of my body as I do the work I am doing.  And seeking relief of situations that don’t self correct, through yoga, acupuncture and dry needling.

When I was young(in my 40s) I had a chiropractor tell me he had given up “adjustments ” because if the bones are out of alignment, it is because muscles are pulling them out.  And over time, being out of alignment will lead to the bones reforming in the new configuration to carry the load.  (just think of a baby’s bowed legs.  Once they begin to walk, the leg bones straighten, to hold the weight up …)

I love my BCS and what ever machine you choose for a dance partner, I hope you like it as well.

On this property, the clay domes - where the compacted clay base is at or very near the surface - have, I'm sure, existed for thousands of years. The workshop of Nature has had a long, long time to convert these areas into rich soil. This hasn't happened, and there is no reason to think it is going to happen without intervention by an outside influence.
In my, perhaps misconstrued way of thinking, adding rich soil building materials on top of undisturbed, compacted, water-shedding clay domes and letting the worms, microbes, etc. do their work is still going to require at least several decades of continual amendment to even modify an inch or two of the clay soil.
I may cut the H--- out of worms, fungal hyphae, and other soil denizens and destroy compacted clay soil structure if I TILL once, or even a few times, and thereby mix all of the added amendments into the upper 6" of the compacted clay, but I'm guessing that all these critters and the aeration channels and water channels they leave will be back in place in the tilled, modified soil long before amendments sitting on top of the compacted clay soil have made a dent in the compacted clay itself - which has a low population of soil critters to start with. I think tilling can give the soil critters and soil modification a bit of a boost in the long run. IMHO tilling has a place in soil building, just not a continual year after year place.
Off topic?

Hey everyone,

I actually had this discussion with the OP earlier.  Like all you guys, I am a firm believer in no-till, to the point that I actually build my own soil/bedding to plop on my ground for gardening.

All that being said, the OP has made his choice and understands the consequences and has decided to go ahead and till anyways.  And given that this is HIS land I am supporting his decision.  

Maybe at some point he will transition to no-till but at the moment this is not his plan and I support him anyways.

Eric

I support  OPs right to choose, and his choice.  I also see our threads as discussions which fully explore any given topic.  To me, that extends the resource beyond one person’s current needs.  I like to think we are creating a resource for future people.

I was just going to respond to Eric’s comment about the clay domes on his property.

In order to make soil from mineral material, what I have found most important is live roots in the soil.  I go for very deep rooted perennial grasses first.  Western wheat grass is a wonderful pioneer species.  The deep perennial grass roots form symbiotic relationships with the whole soil food web community… and if you can supply those grasses with enough moisture to get going… my experience is that the rest will take care of itself,.  I usually mulch if I can, to conserve moisture because the more the plant grows, the more it has to share with everybody else.  And the mulch is additional habitat.

Another thing to be aware of, and a good chance many are, is that mechanical plowing or tilling creates a compaction layer beneath it in addition to some polishing that occurs in some soils, with some implements. That’s not a reason not to till, so much as something to be aware of.  A good remedy is to take a shovel and sink it through the layer of tilling compaction, pull back to make a break through.

No need to do this every where!  Just here and there if you are walking out in the field.  

Wow. Thank you Eric, although it is interesting to see everyone's options.
I've tried soil building (every fall and winter), but my conditions are wet. The soil is clay and sand, so whatever I add to it, gets mixed in, and then sinks under a layer of clay sediment, and so I have to find it again the following year. I've played tennis in my garden before, it packs super tight with no effort. With my efforts, I've turned it from beach-sand tan to almost milk chocolate (maybe a little darker) colored, but I'm still having problems with the water sitting so long it forms a layer of sediment. I'm interested in no-till, but for me, in this location, which is where I do most of my food production, it is not a viable option at this time. I have other areas where I am trying different no-till techniques, areas that aren't as water logged, but they are 1/10th or less in size.
I do have a little bit of topsoil left over from redoing my yard, and I've been mixing ( 1/2 bucket per trailer) it into the manure to try to get a good mix (topsoil has worms and dead grass mixed throughout). (I leveled and reseeded my yard with fescue to get rid of the Bermuda grass. It wasn't holding the soil, and the fescue will promote better soil health. + I can get it to grow in my crappy soil.)
As far as post tilling compaction, most of the areas I use a tiller, I will come back in with the hoe, dig around and see what I've done to the soil, and build my rows and whatnot.
Also, I'm pretty confident that most of you can run circles around me. I'm 28, and arthritis is something. I can show you 5"+ of paperwork from the VA when I got out, all medical. I'm here to learn a better, less back breaking, healthier way of doing things. I don't need to grow a garden, hell, it costs us more money to do than what a reasonable person would spend, but I enjoy it.
If you want to preach, go ahead, but don't be a jerk. For those supporting my rights, thank you. For those trying to educate me, thank you. Either way, I am trying other things, but this was mainly for this specific area.
Other test areas: potatoes in soil that is 5 part sand, 3 part clay, 2 part compost (Worms won't touch this area). Raised beds with layers of manure, topsoil, and yard debris (carrots & sweet potatoes). That cardboard weed barrier/killer idea thing (flower beds). And wood composting in beds from (untreated) sawdust (wife's garden. I use it as a mulch and till/mix it in with the shredded plants at the end of the season). (The sawdust seems to be the most effective for building the soil here, but it still compacts pretty well after a month (a great improvement from 4 years ago).

Someone asked about electric farm equipment. Johnny’s sells an electric tiller and an electric wheel hoe. They definitely don’t compare with a two wheel tractor, but they should do the job much faster than hand tools. Price tags are a little more than $1000. I have no experience with these, just saw them on Johnnyseeds.

John Bolling wrote:
Also, I'm pretty confident that most of you can run circles around me. I'm 28, and arthritis is something. I can show you 5"+ of paperwork from the VA when I got out, all medical. I'm here to learn a better, less back breaking, healthier way of doing things. I don't need to grow a garden, hell, it costs us more money to do than what a reasonable person would spend, but I enjoy it.
If you want to preach, go ahead, but don't be a jerk. For those supporting my rights, thank you. For those trying to educate me, thank you. Either way, I am trying other things, but this was mainly for this specific area.

I'm also among the ranks of disabled agrarians. I haven't found a way to switch to no-till yet. It requires things I just can't do right now. Fortunately Permies has fewer jerks than a lot of forums out there.

I use a small garden tractor with a tiller attachment. That works well for me, my bad shoulder probably wouldn't do too well with a walk-behind tiller. I am, however, tempted by the walk-behind combines and bean harvesters I keep seeing on Alibaba. None in the US though, at least not that I've found. Even if one of those vibrates too much for my shoulder, I'm sure I could modify it to sit sidecar on my tractor. If anyone here sees a seller in the US, I'd be interested.

Paul Young wrote:Cristo, isn't going to take several decades or even several hundred years...or thousands of years for the worms, microbes, etc. to develop a rich soil that is incorporated into the clay base? Or, are you talking of building a rich soil on top of the clay base?

Paul, dude, Permaculture, Permaculture, Permaculture.....it can happen in a few weeks if you do it right.  Permaculture copies what Nature does.  Whatever clay base there may be, if clay is damp it's some of the best soil there ever was for nutrition, for holding water, for encouraging the growth of soil fungi.  Once you add organic matter and top it with wood chips you get the best stuff ever.
 
As a quick example, emulate where a mushroom grows.  You won't need any tools to see what happens underground where there's a mushroom.  Don't disturb the mushroom, but about 6 inches out from the stem, just using your finger, you'll see mulch on top, a little farther down rotted mulch, then soft friable damp clay (or whatever kind of soil it managed to grow in) with white stuff in it, that's mycelium, that stuff is gold.  It is the superhighway of soil improvement and root interaction among plants that actually help each other grow.  And you'll see that the plants next to the mushrooms are also doing well.  Check for morning sun or afternoon sun, wind, all of the conditions of that location and copy that.

Also look around for any large branches or logs nearby, look underneath those logs, and you'll see the same conditions.  That's what hugel trenches are about.

The trick to clay is never expose it to the sun, then you get bricks.  But in just basic gardening we water our plants.  The minute you add a thick organic mulch (not rocks) you will start adding food that the worms want.  If you start adding hugel trenches, mulch, manure it all changes within weeks

I just did a new keyhole garden with a compost bin in the middle on absolutely bare, unimproved hard clay soil.  In 2 weeks worms moved into that compost circle that I keep damp and covered, and are already migrating nearby.   I lined the bottom of the keyhole with 3" semi-rotted branches, manure, then soil, then totally rotted wood I could twist and break up with my hands, then the last layer of soil, then wood chips (as opposed to bark chips), and it's already got signs of mycelium forming, the wood is damp, the soil is damp.  We don't get rain from May through November, and I hardly water vegetables I put in this garden.

It's just what Nature does, and it's the best of Nature.  If we set it up, set it in motion, it does the work.  That's what makes plants and our food healthy.

Just for the record, Cristo, I've dumped organic matter by tractor load on top of some of those undisturbed clay domes for a number of years. Makes beautiful surface dwelling organic soil and plants grow really well for a while. By the way, I am quite aware of the capillarity of clay soils and their nutrient exchange capacities. Oh, surprise, I even know how Fungi grow whether they are Zygomycetes, Ascomycetes, Basidiomycetes, or Fungi Imperfecti. I was employed as a biologist for 30 years in my earlier life. For certain, there is a whole world of things I don't know, but I've been around the block a few times, and I have learned a little bit during the journey.
What I've found to be true by experience with this property is that the minute I stop dumping organic
matter onto a clay site, it quickly, in a year or two, returns to its original clay dome condition. Like I had never touched it. So, in the long run, have I really changed the soil composition?
I could put a raised bed on top the clay, but if I removed it, I have a feeling that the soil underneath would still just be clay you would be poking your finger into. One may make compost in a few weeks, but that's not soil building. I don't think soil building happens in a few weeks, or even a few months. Permaculture takes years to truly amend the soil.The organic matter needs to get down into the soil, not just sit on top of it, and it takes decades for the worms and soil borrowers to mix it in naturally. Also, even with soil building plantings in place, it takes years for enough plant roots and other organic matter to permeate the soil and form a deep, rich soil even with burrowing organisms doing the mixing.
"dude" Really???

Sorry, off topic, but I just HAVE to say this.

Paul

It sounds like you have done a lot of research on your clay domes.😊. I wouldn’t be surprised if you have experimented with  flocculating that clay!

I am the kind of person who would just LOVE to have a turn with it.

I know that clay and sand are very different, and availability of water… so many variables involved.

I had less than 1% carbon in my desert soil, including the calcium carbonate.  I had seeds and irrigation water.  I bought goats, portable solar powered electric fence and a BCS and sickle bar mower.  When I couldn’t get the goats on the plants, I mowed, being careful not to take “too much” of the plants’ sugar factories- photosynthetic parts.  

In threee years I had dark black soil 8 to 10 inches deep, where I had begun with bright red sand.

I had to sell up and move, but I had included big blue stem grass in what I planted.  They are able to put roots down 18 feet!  I think if I had been there the 5 years since I left, the roots would be down deep, and that layer of topsoil would be 2 to 3 feet deep….

Sounds like a job well done, Thelka. I'm aware of the flocculation of clay to precipitate it from water but not aware of how I might use it. I'll have to research it here. Grasses are great for putting down deep, fibrous roots that, in the long run, add organic material, create air channels as those roots die, and moving nutrients. The clay, seemingly potter's quality, is soggy wet in Winter, and almost concrete hard and dry in Summer leaving little opportunity for roots to penetrate. The saying around here is: "If you want to make concrete, just add sand to the clay soil.".
I can add organic matter to the clay soil's surface, but, short of digging or tilling, I have no way of getting it actually into the soil. Digging a hole for a tree just makes a water holding pot for the roots to drown in in the Winter and Spring, and a dry pit in the Summer. So, I avoid planting trees in the clay unless I break up the clay soil with a shovel for a large diameter beyond the planting hole and keep it watered in Summer.

I just wanted to say this as a gentle moderator reminder about Paul’s rule about being nice.  Yes, the OP has chosen to till as opposed to a more soil-friendly alternative.  And he is both aware of what tilling does and has stated that he has plans to build more soil in the future.

That being said, he has made his choice and I think we should respect him for it and not beat him up for not doing what we would want him to do.  BE NICE!!

Paul Young wrote:J  What I've found to be true by experience with this property is that the minute I stop dumping organic
matter onto a clay site, it quickly, in a year or two, returns to its original clay dome condition. Like I had never touched it. So, in the long run, have I really changed the soil composition?  

 

Yeah, that's right, when we stop amending any soil with organic matter it gets used/eaten/ it breaks down into the elements that made it up in the first place.   We've stopped feeding the soil critters, the fungi, and they leave/die.  Any kind of gardening is about creating native conditions for non-native vegetables, fruit, plants, so it is a continuous process.   Gardening is a continuous process.

When you asked would it take several decades or several hundred years....no, not for providing amended soil to grow vegetables/fruit in.  But it's not a once-and-done thing.

The one thing that lasts the longest is hugel trenches, burying wood that is soaking wet, covered in manure, tucked in with organic matter, clay soil protected from the sun with wood chips.  We don't get to stop after that, but it's way less work for several years.  

Sounds like you've got the idea that because it's clay, it's a brick, add sand and it's even more of a brick?  It's only a brick if you don't water it.  It's only a brick if you put it in the sun to dry out for 30 days.  If we think of clay soil like wheat flour instead of white flour, wheat flour takes a little longer to absorb water, but once it does it holds it even better than white flour.  There's more nutrition in wheat flour and in clay soil.  There's more structure for soil critters in clay soil.   It just has to be kept out of the sun, which is the beauty of wood chips, which also hold moisture,  and grow mycelium and other fungi.   It's just a win-win.

Some of the best clay at my place is where the gophers have dug up sandstone into bits and it got incorporated into the clay, about 60% clay/40% sandstone sand and bits...it's so friable I've never seen it even set up and get brick-like, even where it is naturally located.  I can put a shovel into it with ease.   I've used it in containers and in raised beds, the plants absolutely love it.

Paul Young wrote:J "dude" Really???

Well, it's just a West Coast phrase for, "I can't believe it!!"  Sorry, surfing background, it just slipped out

I think most folks here have found this out, when we start adding amendments to any soil, the more needy the soil is, the faster those amendments break down/disappear/get used up.   The amounts of amendments matter, as in 3" to 6" at a time, really thick, not just a little smattering of stuff.  Then slowly but surely, over the years, the amendments don't get used up quite so fast and they sit on top more.   Top layers still need maintenance amounts added often twice a year.

Then taking a tiller to it?   That would instantly take the stuff off the top, pretty much defeat what actually works with clay soil.

I want everyone to love their clay soil.  I want everyone to say, "Thank the holy soil critters I have clay soil! I am so lucky!"  And it really is the case, so I'm just clay soil advocate.  :-)

Ok, this thread is starting to drift off topic.  If you want to start a new thread about the benefits of no-till then I suggest that you go ahead and start one over in the soil section.

If you want to make suggestions about buying a piece of equipment, please feel free to continue to comment.

But any more commentary critical of the OP decision to buy a tiller will quietly disappear without any more warning.

Eric