Help me build a hedge wall.

Ok. So I've never done propagation before.
We have 7 black and 7rasberry plants, all in good health. I have about 500' of "berm" that I want to plant berry bushes on. We have blue berries that I am going to try to transplant, but I want to include more variety.
My idea for the area is wild, like for it to appear wild. The berm backs up to a creek and other properties, so I want to create a natural fence. The composition of the berm is dirt, limbs, and probably some trash, but I have been building it with yard debris and composting materials for almost 2 years. So aside from digging through some dry limbs to find the dirt level, it should be fairly rich soil. After I plant them, assuming they establish, I don't plan on trimming or pruning, and allowing the kids and other wildlife to enjoy the spoils of nature, thorns and all.😄
Do any of y'all have suggestions or a "here's what you do" for propagation of the berry bushes?
Approximately how many should I try to do?
If I did ras, blue, black, ras, blue, black, etc. Do you think they'd form a dense enough fence to stop (or at least deter) people/dogs?

Interesting project John,

I will give out a few ideas I have, but first I have to say that I love this idea!

I am curious though, do you want a solid wall of hedge or do you want breaks so you can access the other side?  500’ is a lot of hedge and I would think that it would be plenty for harvesting your own berries, I just hope that the other side does not attract pests, meaning humans.

Regarding the raspberries, keep the red and black raspberries at least 100’ apart to prevent cross pollination.  Maybe plant Red Raspberry, Blueberry, Black Raspberry.

I have grown blueberries and I can attest to them being long-lived, hearty bushes that look amazing in both Summer and fall.  I once tried to grow red raspberries (and I am about to try again) but mine flopped, I think due to my NOT cutting back at the end of the year.  Apparently cutting back stimulates more shoots to come up.  Also, some varieties of berries really need trimming for production.  If you don’t care about production, let them grow wild!

If you were so interested, I have found that blackberries do grow with reckless abandon  and need not maintenance just to be a hedge.  In order to optimize fruit production, there is some work involved but if you don’t care about heavy production and just want it to grow, then blackberries are a great way to make a thick, thorny self-reproducing hedge.

My last point.  If you just want a hedge, let the bushes grow.  But if you want some production, you will need netting, otherwise birds will beat you to every single berry—I know this from experience.

This is an exciting project so I look forward to seeing how it works.

Eric

Eric,
I'll try to go in order...
So I want a solid wall. I plan on doing a second planting butting up to the back side to add depth to it in a few years. As far as human pests, if they are not welcome, they can use the side facing the creek, if they are (our mail lady, trash guys, friends, neighbors, etc) , they are welcome to use the yard. We have 1 acre in a city, so what we have, we share openly and they share in return.
I do all red raspberry plants. I ain't about making myself confused thinking it was a black berry. (Black were my choice, ras were my wife's. Blue were the kids.)
Yea, blueberry plants are awesome. We have a handful and get around 5-7 gallons a year. As far as pruning, I'm waiting for it to warm up to do mine. I've watched and read a lot on how to prune them, and I've reserved myself to try to kill them all.
No comment for this paragraph.
Yea, so currently, our chickens get about 90% of our ras and black. My hope is to direct them away as well as other pests to try to keep the food areas for us and provide both food and safety for them. + I can always kick the kids in with a bucket when it's time to make jam.
I will probably square one side once they get big, just to keep them from hitting me in the face as I mow, bot otherwise, 0 maintenance planned.

Once the bushes get big enough to fill in the bushes will definitely keep out people and dogs.

While I have not propagated berry bushes I have read how easy they are to propagate.  What I have read is you can pull a limb to the ground, cover it with dirt and it will become another bush.

Blueberries like acid soil which I don't have so I have not been about to grow them.

If this were my project I would plant a mix or at least groups of the same variety.

Sounds like a fun project of which I hope you will keep us informed on how it is going.

Anne,
I'm not sure which varieties we have, but I do know we have 3 of each kind. We tried to pick them so we had a longer harvest season, so I'm hoping my mixing them up randomly, it will create something that will work year round and I won't have to worry about animals running out of free food.
As for propagation, I got the same thing from what I researched, as it sounds too easy. Hence this topic.

I don't have a problem with the squirrels, I actually like them, so if anyone has suggestions for something to mix in for them, I'm interested. Squirrel feed is expensive and the occasional raccoon destroys my homemade feeders.

Here you would have to trim the blackberries or they will kill everything else, and before they kill everything they will make it impossible to get in to harvest the raspberries or blueberries. They also spread like crazy so expect to have to prune your hedge at least twice a year to keep the blackberries where you want them rather than wandering around everywhere.

Rapberries are easy enough to propagate, wait until spring when they send out their suckers, cut off a sucker with a decent bit of root and move it to where you want.
Blackberries are even easier, they will root anywhere they touch the ground, which is not a good thing!
I have no idea with blueberries
But red and black currants really do grow from a stick pushed into the ground I get about 50% success with just shoving a 2 year old piece of wood into the ground.
Gooseberries will also root where they touch the ground so they can be layered.

Hi John. Eric is right on the netting but I’ve grown to really dislike it. The wind tangles it all up and I’m not fond of the way it looks. I started hanging toy plastic snakes from my elderberries with fishing line. Neither birds or squirrels care to get near them. Just move your fake friends every few days and enjoy your fruit!

John,

Thanks for clarifying my mind.  I am a true fan of the blackberries myself.  I think they are my favorite fruit.  I had a friend who gave 6 canes that grew to the ground and rooted on their own.  I transplanted them and they grew abundantly.  Personally I see blackberries as the cheapest and easiest way to plant a hedge, or at least that 1/3 will likely be very easy to establish.

I grew my blueberries in a poor location where a lot of trees and brush has grown up around them so they get shaded, yet they stubbornly reach for the sun and still produce berries.  I want to revive mine soon.

Red raspberries are the ones that flummoxed me.  I am sure I was not cultivating them right so maybe you can teach me a thing or two about them.

I understand now that you don’t really care about the creek side of the row, but I bet this will make a nice living wall for you in a couple of years.  Out of curiosity, are you planning on planting all 500 feet at once?  Or is this something that will be built over years.  I can certainly understand why you want the privacy barrier on a city block.

At any rate, it sounds like you know what you are doing and good luck to you.  I may come back for help on getting my own raspberries going.

Eric

Lets see if I can do this in order.
Skandi,
I would be fine if the black berry overtook everything. I love them. the fact that my neighbor has to pull new plants out of his flower bed every few months is just an added bonus. as for harvesting for some any sort of amount, I don't really care. My goal is to try to keep the birds, chickens, and kids out of my garden areas and to block unwanted access to my land.
As far as propagation of blueberries goes, based on my research, it can be time consuming (1yr) and can be tricky. I have not tried rapberries, but I had little to no success getting gooseberries and currents.

Scott,
I have tried netting. I REFUSE to go back. I destroyed half my berries trying to get the netting off a black berry bush, and half the time, the birds would ram the netting into the bush and eat to their hearts content. I do however like the idea of the snakes. I may just have to run a few around the area, hanging with enough string to move a little bit with the wind. I normally go with the reflective tape to deter birds away from our blue berries.

Eric,
I would like to try and plant as much of it as I can this year, and hopefully be able to finish it next year, but we will see. I don't foresee getting enough plants to do the whole 500', this year, although I did find a website (and then lost it), that had plants for around $5.00 a piece, which is always an option.

Everyone,
Harvesting is not my goal, but to have something that I can munch on while I'm out and about as well as offering protection from and feeding the small animals that my kids and dogs love to chase (no one has ever succeeded). I thought about separating the plants into blocks, but I came to the idea that I didn't want to walk to the other end of my yard for a snack during certain times of the year (I have bad knees and a bad back. I garden for fun, and I don't like work. Please don't make me work).

Nasty dog next door, unwanted , invasive Himalayan blackberry clippings from the never ending removal on my land were strategically dropped over fence and ignored.  Fast forward 5 years, dog gone,  new neighbors LOVE the blackberry hedge that is easily cresting the 6.6ft, solid metal fence, and runners, easily exceeding 7+ft requiring frequent trimming on MY side.

The berries are large, sweet and plentiful.  The propagation is as simple as green canes abandoned near dirt.  The thorns, well they are nasty, large, and will easily use these to scale trees, taking them over!

I honestly hesitate to share and encourage this, as it is likely an invasive species, with seeds easily spread by birds and quite possibly the river.  Is there a native "prickler" plant, bush or tree that might be used instead?

Lastly, here creeks/stream heavily forested, many very shaded in summer...you may need to choose plants accordingly.

Lorrinne,
There really isn't anything like that that is "native" to our area. We do have wild blueberry plants, but other than that, there is a NASTY vine that has huge tubers and thorns and it is a pain in the butt because the only way to remove it is to dig it up. These things suck so bad that the Forestry service even removes them (granted this is the same Forestry Service that does "controlled burns" (1–2-day max) that last for around a week and decided to try to build an entire trail system in swamps (they quit after they surveyed past the 1-mile mark)).
I know that the black berry I have does well in shade, but I'm not sure about the others. Since Florance took out a lot of my border trees and brush, I shouldn't have a problem with it being too much shade, though in the creek is almost entirely shaded nearly year-round. As for them pushing out of their designated area, I plan on keeping the area grass and maintaining it, so I feel like I could manage it.
I would be interested in trying some "rare" Himalayan Blackberries... I'd have to say it would be a shame if they somehow ended up on everyone's property around the creek...

If they grow there, you will find them along road edges, back alleys, and anywhere ground has been allowed to go wild.

Might be worth a call to local landscaper as to their most hated plants (easy to grow, prickly, grows anywhere,  impossible  to kill), and offer to come harvest or have it dropped at your place.

Willow tends to grow anywhere there is water, again, as volunteers from green sticks shoved in the dirt or green branches left laying around, and can be suckered planted by staking long, still attached branches to the ground.

Is Hawthorne or some other prickly tree, shrub, bush or plant native?

Lorinne,
I'm with you on the 'pain in the 'butt" plants, but I also want fruits to pull attract the birds away from MY seeds. I don't care if I have a bunch of tiny berry bushes starting all over the place. I already have that problem with azaleas. Hell, I took out over 300 (on one acre). I want something that can give back as well as protect.

Here is a link to the Pinterest account I had to make to add photos that I don't have on my computer.
https://pin.it/3eoOFDK

The berm runs in the following pictures.

In this one, it runs up the right side and makes a 90-degree turn up hill.

This is 180-degrees from the first picture. It is a slow sweep to the left.

This is where I am going to plant my corn. It continues it slow sweep left.

This final one is where my garden is. (R to L) It straightens out before it has to make a left turn to end the line. (I'm sorry for the quality, I tried panoramic.)

Natives are best for critters & don't become invasive. Contact yr state ag university / master gardener program or talk w a local farmer's market farmer for contact info.

John Bolling wrote:...but I had little to no success getting gooseberries and currents.

I'm not sure if you intended to say that you had little to no success growing gooseberries and currants in general, or specifically in propagating them.

Either way, I wouldn't waste my time if I were you.  You indicated that you live in Eastern North Carolina, which is just too hot for those species.  I don't care if the nursery guidelines say that your zone might be just within what they can tolerate; you're too hot.  Nursery planting guidelines are always overly optimistic.  They sell more plants that way.  I live in Upstate South Carolina.  So, in the foothills.  So, cooler than you.  And I couldn't make any success out of gooseberries or currants.

Oh, I could get gooseberries and currants to grow.  I could even get them to fruit.  But they were clearly out of their element here.  By the height of the summer heat, they would loose all of their leaves.  It was like an early Fall dormancy, except when Fall actually came and the weather cooled again they would instead leaf out a second time for the year.  And then drop their leaves for a second time come Winter.  Some of my plants grew for quite a few years, but they were always weak.  The fruit harvest was minimal for most of them, and then they succumbed to disease, one and then another and then another.

Which is a shame, because they're yummy, but it's better to accept our limitations and focus instead on species that thrive where we are.

One species that has absolutely thrived where I am - and I'm taking an educated guess that it would thrive where you are, too, as it is widely adapted - is goumi.  Elaeagnus multiflora.  I have had nothing but success with goumis.  They are hardy, fast growing, tolerant of poor soils since they are N-fixers, pest resistant, drought resistant, disease resistant... just generally full-proof.  Not to mention attractive and extremely productive.

In my experience, they don't self-seed readily at all.  So, to grow a large number for cheap, not sure if you could do it via seed.  But I understand that they do propagate well from cuttings.  Couldn't say for certain, though; I've only ever grown them from transplants.

The only drawback to goumis is that they do grow densely.  Lots of criss-crossing branches that tend to interfere with one another, thus necessitating some regular pruning.  But in a hedge, so much the better!  Skip the pruning, and let them grow into a dense tangle.  They also have thorns, though not too many.  I can easily imagine a row of closely planted goumi quickly growing into an impassable tangle.

So, that is my advice.  Good luck with your hedge boundary!

I think that your blueberries might be a waste in that space since the caning fruits are soooo much more vigorous and will spread with little to no encouragement. I wouldn't ever try to make a hedge with blueberries unless I wanted a small tidy picturesque one. Especially since there are more diseases that effect blueberries and can spread when the branches overlap or don't have good air flow. Also blueberries grow slowly and need a good pruning every 7 years to keep up fruit production.

If you want more types of stuff in your hedge, how about adding other kinds of cane fruits, like tayberries, boisenberries, marionberries, etc.

Also for native fast growing fruits that would make an excellent hedge, what about muscadine grapes? When we lived in NC, I remember a lot of places in town where they grew wild and made a natural hedge along the roadside by completely overgrowing trees and bushes. We has one plant and it completely engulfed 80' of 8' tall fencing in just four years. Just another idea since I down-voted blueberries. 😁 And grapes are easy to propagate.

Hi John good luck with project. I keep adding more each year. You don't say where you are. Hartman's is in Michigan and if you order 100 plants, in groups of 10, you can get wholesale price. it's easy when I m paying $3-$5 instead of $15-$25. I'm in zone 3 Wisconsin.have ordered several times, always got beautiful plants. Except last year when UPS beat the shit out of them. we have one area we did raspberry, blueberry, gooseberry,  with lingnonberry, cranberry under as living mulch ( not by raspberry)  On a berm I planted aronia, honey berry with nagoon(ground cover raspberry) as ground cover. Honeyberry will do ok with a little shade, aronia will tolerate either. Happy planting (and harvesting)

Jenny Wright wrote:I think that your blueberries might be a waste in that space since the caning fruits are soooo much more vigorous and will spread with little to no encouragement. I wouldn't ever try to make a hedge with blueberries unless I wanted a small tidy picturesque one. Especially since there are more diseases that effect blueberries and can spread when the branches overlap or don't have good air flow. Also blueberries grow slowly and need a good pruning every 7 years to keep up fruit production.

I think that is a good point.  I cannot imagine any scenarios in which blueberry bushes will hold their own amidst mass-planted brambles.  The canes will overtake the area quickly and you'd be lucky even to just keep the blueberries alive.  Your only chance of getting both to co-exist might be with rabbiteye blueberries, which grow taller than the cane fruits.  If you spaced the bushes more widely apart, then your brambles could become something like an understory.  But only if you planted the rabbiteyes with a several-year head start.

About the mix of plants you want to use, John. The odd one out is blueberries: they need a very acid soil [ph4.5-5.5] that is not compatible with the brambles. Also, they like it damp. On top of a berm may not be the best for them, unless you irrigate. But blueberries are finicky.
As mentioned by a few people, if you want to harvest your various brambles, they too need specific care. The good thing is that they are very easy to propagate by layering and some varieties sucker like crazy: In the spring/summer, once you have a decent growth on your brambles, bend a cane all the way to the ground, make a little ditch with a hoe and lay the whole branch, still attached, in the furrow. Cover. Wait. Next year, you will have as many new brambles as nodules you buried. If they are too close to the mother plant and you want to move them, take a sharp shovel and dig them. Plop them where you want to. Water the first year, then do it again.
In the Fall/ winter of the year, remove every cane that has fruited. [The first year, they grow the cane, the second year, they bloom and fruit. after that, they are no good to you: they just attract insects & diseases]. If they are sound, you may add to the berm, but I would not, just in case one of them is sick. [burn them: they count like wood, so you can pour the ashes on your asparagus.. Bonus!
Planting fruiting bushes will attract birds, of course, but also the neighbors' kids, so I hope you have good neighbors. If you get in trouble, I would suggest an agreement with them: They harvest all and keep half. You keep the other half... and grateful neighbors.
I'm still pondering more specifically what you want out of that hedge. You mention "a wall".  Brambles will not grow that tall. By the time you remove about 1/4 of the growth for better  fruiting, they might be shoulder high at best, although with the additional height of the berm, that may be all you really want/need.
From the choices you mention, it seems that you would not mind a few thorns to go with that wall. Hawthorns, sea berry [Hippophae rhamnoides] might fit the bill [6-10 ft. tall]. If you are going for an abundance of fruit, with thorns again, Gooseberries might be a good choice. Gooseberries layer particularly well! they get about chest high.
I'm not sure how *wide* your berm is, but there is no rule that all your plants have to be in a narrow line. The whole wall with be more impenetrable by staggering your plantings. Apple trees, cherry trees, pear trees can work too, but you'd have to figure out how to get at the crop without getting scratched all over with thorns.
One of my favorites is elderberries. No thorns on these! They do well on the edges of woodlands and in damp places. Some can grow 5-7 ft. tall and grow as a shrub or a tree. Your choice. They are truly beautiful when in bloom. Use as tea, jam/ jelly and wine.
If they grow where you are, Juneberries are great too. Mine grow in full sun as well as an understory tree. I grow juneberries because I can't grow really good blueberries in my sandbox.
All of these will invite birds and bees and you will get loads of fruit, to boot!!
Have fun. Let us know how you are coming with this project.

Cécile Stelzer Johnson wrote:...As mentioned by a few people, if you want to harvest your various brambles, they too need specific care...

While I would generally agree with this observation, I think it needs qualification.  I would say, if you want to maximize the harvest from your brambles, then they too need specific care.

On the other hand, if you chose to totally neglect your blackberries - no pruning to control height and encourage branching, no removal of old canes - then do you know what you'd end up with?  A wild bramble patch.  Which as anyone from the country could tell you, is still amply productive.  It won't be attractive, it won't be tidy, and it won't be convenient for harvest.  But it will still be amply productive.

And I wouldn't worry about disease too much, since I know that blackberries grow wild with great success across Eastern North Carolina.  You are growing a species well within its natural comfort zone; it should do just fine.  Particularly if you gathered a wild bramble to start your plantings, as opposed to purchasing a bred cultivar.  As many have pointed out already, brambles are easy to propagate, so transplanting a wild breed from cuttings or layering will be easy.

So, the question is one of objectives.  If you primarily want convenient, maximized harvest, then yes, a bramble patch as large as your intended hedge represents a commitment to significant work.  But if you primarily want a barrier to entry at your property line, an unkempt bramble patch could be ideal.  Although if you desire a barrier that also provides privacy, then you should be sure to include some taller species within your hedge as well.  As Cécile pointed out, brambles simply don't get that tall.

So I know I have a different climate than you since I'm currently in the PNW. But I have to show you what a neglected (Himalayan) blackberry is capable of.

My raspberries can easily grow 10+ get tall in a season but will fall over completely or snap in half if they aren't tied up to a trellis or fence.

On the other hand, the blackberries enjoy a trellis or fence but in the absence of one, they climb over the dead dry bodies of those who came before. 😂 After a few years what you have is a thick almost solid hedge/mound. On my property it can be 10'+ high simply climbing over the old canes and it's as wide as it's allowed to be. Give some enterprising children a machete or clippers and they can actually tunnel into it and hollow out a little cave hideout. Where the vines are near to trees, they climb 20' or more. Of course those vines are where the biggest juiciest berries hang, impossibly out of reach

Ok. I'm sorry I didn't post earlier.
My priorities are as follows: 1. Barrier. 2. Fruit. 3. Privacy.
Hurricane Florence took out several trees so I've been able to see my neighbors back yards for a while now. I'd need 20-40' of growth to cover that up. (Not an option till the younger trees fill in). I've got wild muscadine grapes, and I'm having to fight them away from the smaller trees so they can get bigger. The reason for the blueberries is that they grow REALLY good in my soil, so it's easier to use them and amend for the others than to amend it all on a plant that needs more care than I am willing. My goal is to only clean up the line facing my house, and let the rest go wild. The Himalayan black berry sounds interesting. So do some of the others. I will stagger the plants though, but I will do it from the back side, doing so will allow me to check on the conditions of the creek and behind the berm. I'd like something that is impossible to accidentally get through, and has fruit. It'll provide a barrier between the creek and my kids.

Wow, those photos of Himalayan blackberry are wild!  Thickets of whatever species of wild bramble grows natively here on the East Coast get only half that big.

John Bolling wrote:I'd like something that is impossible to accidentally get through, and has fruit. It'll provide a barrier between the creek and my kids.

I think that is a good idea. When we built our fence to contain the small children, we only had to go part way round the yard because the blackberries did an excellent job as a fence to contain the kids. Anything prickly and thorny is a good deterrent for the small ones. I have had to rescue a toddler one or twice who tried to go a few steps in and then got stuck when they realized they were surrounded by thorns.

I'm not sure how well this would apply across the pond but if I want a barrier with sacrificial fruit for birds, I'd look at pyracantha. Much more structure than blackberries and the thorns are more vicious. Apparently the berries are edible but the seeds are slightly poisonous.

With any sort of bramble or blackberry,  adding a "line" or two (be it metal, fiber, or recycled clothesline) at the 4-6 foot height I suspect would provide ample "structure" for a sturdy cane with thorns to grab onto...

Lorinne, That is defiantly something I can do. a couple T-posts and a few strands of bailing twine.

I got on the Hartmann's webpage, and here is my perspective line up.

Chester Blackberry x10

Wyldewood Elderberry x10

Jeanne Gooseberry x10

Prolific Kiwiberry x10

Phoenix Tears Goji Berry x10

Beta Ground Cover Raspberry x10

Heritage Raspberry x15

Nova Raspberry x10

Anne Raspberry x10

Jewell Raspberry x10

And this is to cover 500'. I figure if I plant 2 rows, staggered, I can get about 10' between each plant, but not all of these plants would go into the berm (Goose, Goji, & Elder. I can put them somewhere that my wife can enjoy harvesting without all the blood, sweat, and tears.)

John Bolling wrote:I got on the Hartmann's webpage, and here is my perspective line up.

Chester Blackberry x10

Wyldewood Elderberry x10

Jeanne Gooseberry x10

Prolific Kiwiberry x10

Phoenix Tears Goji Berry x10

Beta Ground Cover Raspberry x10

Heritage Raspberry x15

Nova Raspberry x10

Anne Raspberry x10

Jewell Raspberry x10

And this is to cover 500'. I figure if I plant 2 rows, staggered, I can get about 10' between each plant, but not all of these plants would go into the berm (Goose, Goji, & Elder. I can put them somewhere that my wife can enjoy harvesting without all the blood, sweat, and tears.)

Your list looks awesome and sounds delicious! Make sure to update with some pictures as it grows!
I looked at Hartman's for the first time last night and making my own list. Those prices are amazing and so many varieties!

I know, Right?
I just got off the phone with the owner. I had called about a military discount or if he offered anything with the Farmer Veteran Coalition (hoping to save on the total with the normal 10% off), he cut me a hell of a deal. (I won't give specific numbers, but it was a great deal)
I will definitely be going through them again in the future!

John Bolling wrote:I know, Right?
I just got off the phone with the owner. I had called about a military discount or if he offered anything with the Farmer Veteran Coalition (hoping to save on the total with the normal 10% off), he cut me a hell of a deal. (I won't give specific numbers, but it was a great deal)
I will definitely be going through them again in the future!

So great! Did he offer a military discount?

Yes, but it was more than 10%. He then did more on top of that. PM me if you want to know more. After everything, he then started talking about shipping dates, which caught me off guard.
They should ship March 1st.

He had to switch out the Anne with another variety due to inventory, and switched the kiwi for one that produces more, but he also caught that one or two needed a male plant to produce. I know my bees and kids will LOVE it down there this year.

James Alun wrote:I'm not sure how well this would apply across the pond but if I want a barrier with sacrificial fruit for birds, I'd look at pyracantha. Much more structure than blackberries and the thorns are more vicious. Apparently the berries are edible but the seeds are slightly poisonous.

Yes, pyracantha is grown in North America as an ornamental; never heard of anyone eating the berries.  And yes, it has formidable structure and even more formidable thorns!  I can vouch for pyracantha thriving in southern Maryland, and so it should be well adapted to the OP's eastern North Carolina location, which is only slightly hotter.

Ha, I didn't realize that you had a creek behind the berm that your little ones might want to get into. This definitely add another dimension to your quest, and I understand the brambles!
I take it you do not own 1/2 of the creek as often happens when the creek is the limit between 2 properties, right?
You don't tell us how young your little ones are, so I'm left to assume that the answer is "too young to comprehend the danger of going unattended to the creek". And, let's face it: the attraction of running water for little ones is irresistible.
Knowing that, a strategy could be to have the best fruit trees from which they could gather fruit at the other end of your property, if that is an option. [A bit like God's admonishment to Adam & Eve to not eat from the tree of Knowledge] .
Having a little area where they can grow their own radishes, care after their own chickens perhaps, "their own Paradise" if I may continue the Biblical reference here. This might actually be cheaper than creating a wall of fruiting vegetation [which trust me, [u]they will find attractive as well].[/u]
Your mind is in the right place: keep your little ones away from the creek. Mom and dad have the most important role to play; greater than growing a lot of good stuff. There is no wrong age to tell them: "I don't want you to go to the creek". "We are installing fruiting bushes and brambles to keep you on *this side* of the fence".

Wow, Hartmanns looks amazing!
I love how a thread like this helps the entire comunity!

Yea... they end up being a hand full. Ages are 7, 3, and 1. All girls. Its only me and 2 of the 3 dogs, the rest, hummmmmm, how to say it, have an easy time peeing in the yard. so yea, lots of screaming, hair pulling, being angry at each other for no reason. and it's only going to get worse as they get older. yay...
Yes, I share the creek with 4 or 5 other properties.

(Red - Creek) (Yellow- My garden) (Green - My Wife's Garden) (Blue - Retaining wall I built to ease the slope of both the yard and garden) (Gray - Shed) (Purple - Other property lines & Other planting areas for corn, potatoes, onions, and garlic.)
I know it's not the best photo, but it's what google had to offer. It's also old as hell, considering that the black car was given back to my wife's ex-husband almost 3 years ago.
We have apple and peach on the front line (facing the road, on our side of a ranch style fence), as well as blueberries and figs to the right of the driveway. When I got the property, the azaleas were so dense that you couldn't see over them on a ladder, so I had to cut paths through them with the chainsaw. As I got to do more work out there, I was able to fully remove root balls and pile them up about 10-15' from the creek. I continued to pile them up and so the berm grew. After hurricane Florance, we lost several large (1'-1 1/2') limbs that quickly became part of the berm as well, but at the cost of losing some of the privacy. I do have a cut through to the creek (somewhere between the far-left purple blob and the corner of my garden) that I will be putting a gate at, as it is large enough to drive a tractor to.
My plan is to plant (counterclockwise, starting at the bottom) from the edge of the road to the creek, along the creek (but not my cut through), to the top corner, and along the property line (purple on right) up to the edge of the retaining wall (chickens are behind the shed to the retaining wall).
My thought is to mix the black, kiwi, and raspberries along that area in 2 rows, and plant the goji, elder, and gooseberries on the topside of the retaining wall, which I will (eventually) put a fence that matches the front. I figure the girls can do flowers in between the berry plants on the wall, and use it for their own little garden, while I get to enjoy working and having a snack every now and then.
The berm had definitely reduced to "escape" attempts, but not 100%, so I was hoping that building the bramble wall might help. Not only would it be more formidable in their minds, but it would also hurt like hell, which is all the more reason not to try to go play in the creek.
The area we live in was all swamp before the Marine Corps decided to build a base here, so they used a lot of fill dirt and clay to build it up. It's not the best soil, and I'm not sure if I trust the runoff from upstream. I've seen some weird stuff seep up from the soil around here.

John Bolling wrote:Yea... they end up being a hand full. Ages are 7, 3, and 1. All girls. Its only me and 2 of the 3 dogs, the rest, hummmmmm, how to say it, have an easy time peeing in the yard. so yea, lots of screaming, hair pulling, being angry at each other for no reason. and it's only going to get worse as they get older. yay...
Yes, I share the creek with 4 or 5 other properties.
My thought is to mix the black, kiwi, and raspberries along that area in 2 rows, and plant the goji, elder, and gooseberries on the topside of the retaining wall, which I will (eventually) put a fence that matches the front. I figure the girls can do flowers in between the berry plants on the wall, and use it for their own little garden, while I get to enjoy working and having a snack every now and then.
The berm had definitely reduced to "escape" attempts, but not 100%, so I was hoping that building the bramble wall might help. Not only would it be more formidable in their minds, but it would also hurt like hell, which is all the more reason not to try to go play in the creek.
The area we live in was all swamp before the Marine Corps decided to build a base here, so they used a lot of fill dirt and clay to build it up. It's not the best soil, and I'm not sure if I trust the runoff from upstream. I've seen some weird stuff seep up from the soil around here.

The map really helps, and it looks like you have these plans well in hand. I strongly believe that you are on the right track there!
About the "runoff from upstream", I would want to investigate the "weird stuff that seeps up from the soil": This may pose a greater threat to your family than the creek and your children's attraction to it does.
As far as your three girls, don't sweat the details, and no: It does not have to get worse as time goes by: Take it from a retired teacher: 7 is the "age of reason", and such a child can be coached to help along with gardening, planting and gathering crops. It usually gets better actually.. Be heavy on the praise and light on criticism, even if you don't always feel that way. Create some situations where they "win" your praise.  Start small, maybe with radishes in your garden. Maybe make them responsible for a few hills of squash [if they like squash]. You seem to have a good imagination and you think your problems through, so it will all be fine. You will find the way with them just like you found it with your plantings.
Mom could get in on it too: You barely mention her. The main value of marriages in the olden days what that there would be 2 people to pull together on all issues, lay down the law etc. Raising children to be helpful was a very important part of this effort, as children would eventually take over the homestead and care for aging parents.
My first husband didn't even pay attention to our 2 sons until they grew of age to hold a rifle, so this chore was left to me [and it is a chore sometimes!] They eventually grew into sweet kids and helpful adults, even though they never "took" to planting gardens. Chin up: It gets better!

Cecile,
That's very sweet. Thank you. If you haven't read my other thread, New Year..., I think you might enjoy it.
I love my wife, but gardening isn't really her thing. Or I guess, the planning side isn't. So she tells me what she wants to grow in her garden, I do the prep, and she tends it. She tells me what I can't do outside my garden, like putting rows in front of the house 😞 (I seriously lost that argument), but allows me free reign over everything past the patio. (I'm not allowed to move the kids play area to put a garden there either). On top of that, I submit a budget every December for what I want to do (typically $200-$300), which she approves with only asking if we are ordering or going local for specific items, and the unspoken agreement that I have about 500% wiggle room, so as long as I spend less than $1000 on plants, I golden! My wife tolerates my gardening, but she does because she sees my passion for it and the joy it brings me, even if I'm out in the garden at midnight with a kerosene lantern planting seeds.
The girls LOVE gardening. So much so that most of my wiggle room funds go to flowers and weird plants they want (wtf is a litchi tomato? I don't know but I'm growing it. Or any of the like 15 types of flowers, or the weird root vegetables, or fancy colorful corn, seriously, they've figured me out.)(I did say no to the purple potatoes though). I made a dibble guide ( 4', points every 2") and had the 3yo planting beets, onions and garlic with me. "one, two THREE! Three daddy!" And she'd hand me a bulb to put in. "Daddy, baby plants!" While the oldest does flowers. "Can we get morning glories again?" "What kind of flowers are those?" "Is it time to plant my flowers yet?" And of course the littlest one, who hasn't had a tomato from the vine yet, will be down there picking them and running away to eat them this year.
My pictures are of my family. The profile picture is the youngest.

John Bolling wrote:Cecile,
That's very sweet. Thank you. If you haven't read my other thread, New Year..., I think you might enjoy it.
I love my wife, but gardening isn't really her thing. Or I guess, the planning side isn't.  

Thanks. I knew you were a kindred spirit. My 2 boys are grown and gone but gardening is really not my hubby's thing either. He tolerates what I do in the garden, the trees that I plant, the bees, but he knows that is MY thing. He will not till nor weed, rarely harvest. He has a line of sight to the forest where the deer come from. He does not want me to obscure that line of sight by planting bushes nearby, but that is my only restriction.
We keep our assets separate, so we never have disagreements about money.