I guess this is a intentional community question because that is where a lot of us will be living if we are lucky.How many feel the economic collapse of the usa is at hand and how many feel it is not and explain why you feel the way you do.How many of you have read G.Edward Griffin's book "The creature form Jekyll Island" and how many know what the federal reserve is?

yep, its all pretty wacky, and unstable- the collapse is inevitable.

this i have known for a long time, its not hard to see actually. the foundation is rotten.
i thought it would happen years ago! so its like...come on already, just fall down already!

then again, what i really think is going to happen is the a good portion of the economy will collapse (IS collapsing already) but at the same time other economies are building up. so i think that the less stable and unsustainable parts of the economy will decline, but the parts that are integral are just getting going stronger. so i dont think the whole thing will collapse all of a sudden, more gradual...while "economies" and certain kinds of industries will not be as affected.
and theres a major readjustment taking place.

also alternative kinds of "economies" barter, gifting, communities like you say...hopefully alternative currencies..... not neccessarily paper money kinds of economies

though the future is unwritten, i feel certain that we arent going to be going back to what was.

i think that a lot of people want that...to just get back to what was...feeling the economy was healthy then...but it wasnt. it was just good for a small number of people (as it mostly is now)

Folks like Lyndon LaRouche have been predicting collapse for decades. It will come, but the question is when? When will the dollar stop being the reserve oil currency? Depends on when the powers that be decide it will happen. Seems to me Iran and Indonesia (Muslim and Oil rich) need to fall first, and we haven't even started our propaganda war on Indonesia. Once the US has served it's purpose to become the world hegemon, then it will fall. Probably 5-10 years out, min.

Next question: Will we have a 'collapse', or a 'frog in the pot' scenario? People keep eating GMOs and 'low fat' so the 'Soft Kill' option seems to be working, so I don't see any need for a catastrophic scenario. This is based on the assumption that the 'Powers that Be' are hell bent on reducing world population. Plan 'A' (GMOs, soy, phyto-estrogens, pthalates, etc.) are working fine to reduce fertility, so no need to escalate unless there's some sort of timeline, which is doubtful; they've already waited hundreds of years so a few more won't hurt.

Nice thread.

I can not disagree.

I moved this thread to Meaningless Drivel. It makes no contribution to the intentional community/ecovillage forum.

While permaculture principle can offer significant advantages during difficult times, this is not a Doomer/Prepper/SHTF site. Might I suggest americanpreppersnetwork.com/ or something with a similar theme.

My 2¢: collapse is a process rather than an event.

I appreciate everyones feedback.I've seen the whole spectrum with this question.I've made some people really mad.Some have the mindset that "It can't happen here".We americans are above all of that,and I hope we are but fear we are not.One lady I know that teaches junior college told me the consequence of burrying your head in the sand is that you end up with a sunburned ass.Meaningless drivel,I hope it turns out to be just that but I fear it will be the most meaningfull event on the 21'st century,unfortunately.

Here is a sign. Every great nation thru history erected a spire. Much like the Washington Monument. As each empire fell the structure would fall. At least the main one. Ours is very damaged. To me it looks crooked. It is not unrepairable. It is up to us all to make sure our life is not destroyed and our country. The dark ones are afraid of us. It must start in our hearts folks. It must start now.

well maybe you think i am fruit for saying so - but i dont fear the collapse,
truthfully i am looking forward to it =)

or well...not looking forward to how badly it could be for certain places...and people, not saying i want people to suffer. but i think a lot of those places...well they wouldnt be that affected by it. the poorest people things cant get much worse for them.

and if anything they have survival skills, know how to grow food, how to be conservative and not waste, and have community- cause they have to.
so likely the people most affected by it are the wealthier people...even those who would be considered "poor" by american standards.

and i have been for a long time, actually.
but i have already been through my own private economic collapse, over and over and again...at this point i really couldnt get more frugal, and have gotten so used to living without money, conserving everything, making do with whats on hand, inching along.
it wouldnt likely affect me much, cause i am already living so lean. at least with money. actually if anything my skill set would be more "valuable" than ever...because i know how to grow food and build structures...and get by on scraps and salvage and not much else.

and maybe its weird to someone coming from a different perspective- but i think we will all be the better for it, as i have found for myself.

and i think its the only way we can move forward into a more sensical world with a more stable economy

so i am not a prepper or whatever..coming from a really different perspective

I like this video: Toby Hemenway - How Permaculture Can Save Humanity and the Earth, but Not Civilization

Tyler Ludens wrote:I like this video: Toby Hemenway - How Permaculture Can Save Humanity and the Earth, but Not Civilization http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8nLKHYHmPbo

excellent, just got through the first 15 minutes of that and so far completely agree with what hes saying.
i like when people can articulate these things well...i try myself...but cant say i succeed usually.
and theres such a gap...or something....peoples base assumptions, ideas about the way things have to be, what we need, and how people are used to things....so used to dysfunctional things its like they cant get things dont have to be dysfunctional.

i think most of what is falling away, most of what is collapsing, is stuff that really should not have been built up and relied upon anyway. now theres so many props to prop up the other props, to hold together something that should never gotten so ingrained.
when we let that stuff fall away and get clear on real priorities...well things are much simpler than they are made to be.

its really not particularly hard to get what one bottom line needs to keep inching along.
some food, some clothing, some shelter, some folks around to share and exchange and love on =)

its just very difficult to do a bunch of dysfunctional stuff, and try to make it functional....while trying to prop up things that should be left to fall away.
though, now because of how things have been or so long...and the systems are out of balance....it has become more difficult.
especially in certain locales.
i agree with being "regenerative" rather than just sustainable. i also think this is much easier than we make it, to be so....most of it involves NOT doing- keeping it simple.

well so far that seems to be similar to what he is winding up to say.

watch the rest later, too much sunshine to be on the computer this long.

John, check out some of Jack Spirko's thoughts on the subject - The Survival Postcast - lots of food for thought. (He's a permie too.)

During the Great Depression, I believe we had a stronger nation.
People were more resourceful, and had more realistic dreams.

We learned how to survive based on what we could produce. If you couldn't produce a meal, you went to bed hungry. If you couldn't fix your car, you walked. If you couldn't fix the tractor, everybody grabbed a shovel or hoe. It wasn't a "throw-away society" because there wasn't anything to throw away.

Today, there are more people working in 'service industries' than in manufacturing. As fewer and fewer people have expendable income to spend on services, that industry will shrink as have our industrial industries.

The growth of our economy was based on debt. Most people are so deeply indebted now that they cannot take on more debt. That will grind our economy down to a near standstill. The only people who seem comfortable taking on more debt are our government. They depend on future taxes to pay existing debt. Where is this money going to come from as fewer and fewer people are capable of paying higher taxes? There will come a day that our government will be forced to default on its debt. That is when the shit hits the fan.

That's my 2¢

since you metioned a book i have yet to read but am somewhat familiar with:
end the fed by ron paul
the 5000 year leap (i think its by cleon skousen but not certain)
cant thimk of others at the moment the JBS has a lot available on their website i believe

Tyler Ludens wrote:I like this video: Toby Hemenway - How Permaculture Can Save Humanity and the Earth, but Not Civilization

finally got a chance to watch this whole thing, and wow! totally agree 110%....

sorry if this seems irrelevant or whatever, to go on about this- but i do think he has identified exactly the root causes, and lays it out very plainly.

and i do think its extremely relevant- these are THE solutions.
much as it may seem permaculture is "just a way to garden", or some of the other things he says...this may all seem like separate stuff to someone...but to me its all connected.

i mean these are the same conclusions i have drawn, though i would say some of it differently...and some of it he just touches upon like talking about "hierarchy" and such.....what he calls hierarchy i would talk about "dominator culture" and "private property" paradigms...similar....and that this culture and what it teaches, is a form of violence...a subtle form perhaps but still...a form of violence, in which everyone is hurt- even the perpetrator.

and very related to agriculture...wiping out habitat...for not just animals and other species...but even wiping out habitat for ourselves. perhaps its odd...but i am concerned about the habitat for the wild human animal as well as for other life forms......as well as whatever places still existed for nomadic like hunter gathering cultures, who do not understand and cant co habitate with private property.

i also LOVE LOVE what he says about earth gods vs sky gods...the detached and inaccessible "superior" gods of dominator cultures versus the gods of the land, and relating to the land as sacred.

well i'm a neo pagan....and an animist...so that deeply resonated with me.
and i came to that long before permaculture, i think its...well i would say its more of an all encompassing way to come to the same ideas as permaculture. and to me- it does seem to be at the heart of a "permaculture" movement....
not that we want, or need everyone to become a neo pagan or whatever....but the basic difference in paradigms...the paradigms of community and diversity, or belonging in place rather than the conquest mindset that neo coloinialist culture teaches....regardless of whether one sees this as animism or neo pagan ideas, or refuses to accept the whole of that...these basic (but very different from the isolationist and ego mania of dominator culture) memes and underpinnings...are what needs to be seen to heal our world. i also think...that this is our natural way anyway...that the ideologies of dominator culture are actually the anomoly and dysfunctional.... throughout all of the different cultures of the world very very small percent have perpetuated that ideology of colonialism...so this gives me some hope actually. that can be untangled- the headtrip , and we can come back to the natural mind, to the natural world.

and i know...for some people...that may especially seem to have little do with these issues...but to me this is one of the main causes - the ideological underpinnings of the dominator culture...this is one of the points that set the rest to follow to alignment
imo of course...of course...just my ideas....
thanks for posting this anyway, i got a LOT from watching it.

I'm so glad you like it, it is one of my favorites and folks are probably sick of me posting it constantly. :p

Not sick of it; first time I've seen it, although I'm aware that soil depletion and debt are the reasons almost every major civilization have failed. Thanks for the watch. And for the record, my economics mentor Dr. Robert Rooney, former economic adviser for the Getty oil corporation and my economics mentor at CSULB (he gave up his suits for overalls, pigs and avocados), claimed he was so far right that the JBS was a Socialist organization. As I grow older I'm tending to agree with his view.

greg patrick wrote:soil depletion and debt are the reasons almost every major civilization have failed.

Soil depletion is just another kind of debt, isn't it? Both are taking from the future.

The feds 100-year charter is up in 2013. Of course that does not matter as we have two Goldman Sachs puppets running for office. The "collapse" already happened. In 2008. We've been borrowing money left n right just to stay afloat. Eventually our debt will be no good and martial law will officially be declared. We're in a soft form of ML now. If you don't homestead now, you better find someone who does. Or you'll walk into a fema camp and get destroyed. Empty stomachs are hard to fight.

Get away from the population. And enjoy life.

I think everyone needs to take a deep breath and relax. The world is not ending to tomorrow.

^this is something thats important to consider, societies may end, governments may collapse and be overturned, which of course is sometime a glorious thing in and of it self, that is until you consider the lives lost i nthe process

BUT

life goes on, the world heals, and SOMETIMES everyone is better off for having gone through the hard times, with liberty occassionally emerging from the rubble, but in the end, as life conitinues, the wise learn to see the good in all and realise that whatever happened or is gonna happen is in the hands of God, destiny, or nature way (whatever it is the individual sees as the driving force behind disaster and miracles)

and as life goes on, its not honestly too important when the disaster strikes, but what you DO when the disaster strikes - do you freak out and lose all hope, or do you struggle on and do you best to ensure liberty, life and love go on?

I've spent some time looking into the planned collapse. None of it really matters when you're homesteading. It's better to focus on a good life rather than why life in a city sucks. I think Paul has done the same.

Country life. You've been doing it for hundreds of thousands of years. Why stop? McDonalds isn't that good.

I've been in the woods since the 80's ,I'm 56.I just like the woods and have always wanted to live here where I'm at.Currency collapse was not the motivation.I'm in the middle of a few thousand acres,I own 5.My nearest neighbor is about a mile away on the highway where there is a small community."The money masters" and jim rogers clips got me to noticing the economy.I had never really understood or cared about it.I've watched video clips on Argentina and Iceland that had recent economic collapses and am coming up with my own plan in the event of a monetary breakdown.Watching it the way you watch tv or the radio when there is a big storm on the way.It may not even happen but it probably will and was just looking for feedback to see what others have done,appreciate the info on the survival site.I will be looking at it from time to time.I was a boy scout and have hunted all my life.I guess it's time to get real about things and get ready.Most people have no idea what the hell is going on,I guess they never have and won't until it hits and then they will be there looking for a handout.It will be interesting.

I see a gradual decline in U.S. military and economic power as both positive and inevitable. It would be nice to see it happen without an all out war with China.

During the recent U.S. election, both candidates spoke of North American energy independence yet there was very little mention of Canada. We have the world's second largest petroleum reserve and other resources that are in short supply south of the border. Fifty years from now, I expect the U.S. to still be a huge regional player. Canada, Mexico, and other close neighbours will have the most to gain or lose as American economic and military objectives shift.