In a pickle over pickles

Hi all,
I've been fermenting cucumbers in small, one or two jar batches, for a few years.  They get eaten pretty fast.  I got a big crop of cucumbers, and I want to make pickles.  Problem is, I need them to last a while.  I've had the fermented pickles go bad in the fridge.  What did people do in the old days, before canning?  I can remember, 50 years ago, going to the deli and seeing a big crock of pickles on the counter.  It wasn't refrigerated.  How did they do that?

I would be interested in this as well. Same here Lori, they get eaten pretty fast. I do fridge pickles too, but yeah after a while ---no bueno. If anyone out there knows some lost art of preserving great pickles let us know.

Hi Lori,
I'd like to help you solve the pickle pickle. Here's what I understand and some questions for you:
1.

I've been fermenting cucumbers in small, one or two jar batches

(key word is "fermenting" instead of packed in vinegar)
2.

They get eaten pretty fast.

(sounds like you're happy with your recipe and you are good at fermenting! Please explain how you currently ferment cucumbers and share your recipe)
3.

I need them to last a while

(question: how long would you like them to last?)
4.  

I've had the fermented pickles go bad in the fridge.

(question: what made them bad, for example rubbery texture or mold on top, or something else?)
5.

What did people do in the old days, before canning?

(sounds like you want to ferment but not heat-process the fermented pickles)
6.

I can remember, 50 years ago, going to the deli and seeing a big crock of pickles on the counter.  It wasn't refrigerated.  How did they do that?

(sounds like you prefer not to refrigerate. Since we don't know how long these pickles were sitting on the counter unrefrigerated or how cold the establishment was, or if the pickles were lacto fermented in brine or if they were packed in vinegar, this will probably remain a mystery after 50 years)
Please give us more information or clarify if I misunderstood anything in this summary. With more detail, pickle sleuths world-wide can dive into some helpful suggestions for you and many other curious readers.

i suspect higher salt concentration in your brine will help fermented pickles stay good longer. some recipes for real old-school ‘full sours’ go all the way up to 10%salt, and you need to soak them in water for a bit to make them tolerable. do you know the concentration you usually go for?

greg mosser wrote:i suspect higher salt concentration in your brine will help fermented pickles stay good longer. some recipes for real old-school ‘full sours’ go all the way up to 10%salt, and you need to soak them in water for a bit to make them tolerable. do you know the concentration you usually go for?

I have a Ball blue book (put out by the jar company) from the 1970s which has these instructions on salt-curing and de-salting cucumbers. You can see that these were considered the first steps before adding spices or vinegar mixtures.

So far the method that has worked for me is to do a one day high salt brine on the cukes to draw some of the water out. Then they go into fermentation jars with airlocks, along with dill, grape or horseradish leaves, salt, and garlic. After a week or so when the main fermentation has stopped, I put them in quart jars and add 1 Tbsp rice vinegar. I then cap with lids that have a system where you can pull a vacuum with a syringe type arrangement. This isn't foolproof but it helps.

I have had the same problems with refrigeration storage as you. They start to get scum on the top and eventually mold and go bad. Adding extra vinegar helps a lot with that. Also, I found that I need to monitor the salt content in the jars because microbial action will use up the sodium chloride and make the environment more susceptible to microbial growth - an unwanted feedback loop.

I am currently finishing off the last quart of cucumber pickles from last year and they are still crunchy and good. The key seems to be monitoring every few weeks and adding rice vinegar and salt as needed. The jars are full of living things that still metabolize in the fridge, even if it is much slower.

I think ya'll are probably right ---at least for me. I'm guessing a higher concentration of salt is what I need to do. Thanks for the picture of the old recipe Mk. There sure is gold in them old books.  ---and I like the idea Robin of spiking with a high salt cure day. Also horseradish leaves I haven't tried so, maybe that will be on the docket here. Pickles are my favorite, but I've also done Kimchi and that is very delicious too. Thanks everyone for taking time to give us ideas!

Curt

You'll also want to consider the temperature at which the "completed" pickles are stored, as they will continue fermenting. The fridge slows it down considerably, but if you do not have infinite refrigerator space (and who does?), you'll want to look for the coolest place possible to store them that is above freezing. A root cellar would be ideal, but an unheated garage or a closet that stays closed most of the time and is draft-blocked would also be possible.

Amy Gardener wrote:Hi Lori,
I'd like to help you solve the pickle pickle. Here's what I understand and some questions for you:

Wow, good questions!

(sounds like you're happy with your recipe and you are good at fermenting! Please explain how you currently ferment cucumbers and share your recipe)

They're delicious!  Everyone says they're the best pickles they ever ate. Really tasty and crisp.   I wash the cukes, slice the bigger ones in quarters.  I put them in a clean jar and pour the brine over, 1 tablespoon sea salt to 1 cup water.  I add a garlic clove, a split, small pepper that I grow (a sweet, Basque variety), about a teaspoon of pickling spice, and a sprig of dill from my garden.  I let them sit for about 3 days under the sink, and then put in the fridge.  My fridge isn't that big, so I don't have a lot of room.

3.

(question: how long would you like them to last?)

Until they're all eaten, LOL.  A few months, at least.

(question: what made them bad, for example rubbery texture or mold on top, or something else?)

They sometimes get moldy.  The water goes bad, getting slimy, and it stinks, like turtle water.

5.

(sounds like you want to ferment but not heat-process the fermented pickles)

Yes, if possible.

6.

(sounds like you prefer not to refrigerate. Since we don't know how long these pickles were sitting on the counter unrefrigerated or how cold the establishment was, or if the pickles were lacto fermented in brine or if they were packed in vinegar, this will probably remain a mystery after 50 years)

Well, they probably had vinegar in them.  It was in NYC, would probably have been Kosher,  in the 1960's in the summer.  No air conditioning.  So pretty warm.

Wow, excellent answers Lori!
Now let the fermentation wizards give you their best replies. I shall retreat to my ancient library and consult experts far and wide. I'll be back....

To encourage more conversation to assist Lori and others, here are the things that I gleaned from pickle experts, particularly Sandor Katz in Wild Fermentation; Harold McGee in On Food And Cooking: The Science and Lore of the Kitchen, and Preserving Food without Freezing or Canning: Traditional Techniques Using Salt, … and Lactic Fermentation ...[by] The Gardeners & Farmers of Terre Vivante. These are inspiring reference books.

1.  Sanitation. Lactic fermentation uses bacteria that live on the veggies that are used in the pickle making process (cucumbers, peppers, garlic, herbs). There are many other less useful yeasts, fungi and bacteria that may be on tool surfaces, in water, containers and so forth. Most will die but the residue is waste in the “turtle water.” Fermentation employs specific strains of bacteria that love the anaerobic salt brine environment. Clean, even sterilize non-dedicated containers or first use crocks so that competing bacteria and contaminants don’t impact the process.
2.  Artisan vessels. Using a jar with loose lid or airlock to release gas is perfectly fine however, old clay crocks and barrels used exclusively for lactic fermentation have years specialty microbes ready to be used for fermenting. Keep pickling crocks for pickles only. Don’t sterilize these if all is going well.
3.  Water issues. Make sure there is no chlorine in the water. Make sure the water is filtered if there are quality issues.
4.  Time. Fermentation can go fast or slow. Instead of 3 days, look for bubbles. Taste. My pickling processes take weeks at room temperature.
5.  Under the sink and other strange places. If your sink station is anything like mine, baking soda, compost bin, food particles, garbage can, temperature swings, a mouse trap, lack of air flow, and general contamination may be present. Make sure the place where the crock is stored is clean. Historically, people have stored pickle crocks in the cool earth. The cucumbers and spices grew there! What grows under my sink is not anything I’d want to eat.
6.  The brine. Lori has a 7.2% brine solution which should be fine. To slow down fermentation, add more salt (maximum 10% brine solution by weight). Adding salt after fermentation slows down the fermentation process for longer storage.
7.  Submerging the pickles in the brine. Make sure the pickles are weighed down in the brine solution with a clean plate and a clean non-reactive weight (like a jar of water). When using a stone for a weight, make sure the stone does not have lime. Adding alkalinity can change the pH of your mix.
8. Avoid cutting the pickles. I lacto ferment Armenian cucumbers as they are too long to ferment whole. I cut them into long chunks then let them ferment then store in a cool place. They last about 2 months before losing crispness and becoming mushy. Ideally, the protective skin should prevent over exposure to the brine and they would last longer if I kept them whole. It’s a trade off, and 2 months is better than nothing. The inside of a cucumber, like the inside of any body, is different than the outside. The outside of a cucumber is protective and has bacteria and protective skin that aid in the fermentation process. The inside is mostly water and this can reduce the salt concentration and change the fermentation process. Leave cucumbers whole if possible.

Most important, fermentation is science AND art. We cannot control all the variables. We get better with careful observation and understanding of the unique micro-climate that is each person's reality. It's okay to fail and learn. Keep experimenting and share discoveries!

Amy Gardener wrote:To encourage more conversation to assist Lori and others, here are the things that I gleaned from pickle experts, particularly Sandor Katz in Wild Fermentation; Harold McGee in On Food And Cooking: The Science and Lore of the Kitchen, and Preserving Food without Freezing or Canning: Traditional Techniques Using Salt, … and Lactic Fermentation ...[by] The Gardeners & Farmers of Terre Vivante. These are inspiring reference books.

Wow, thanks Amy!  That's all very helpful!  I think I could definitely use a bit more care with cleanliness.  I'm in an apartment, so finding cool, dark areas is a problem, and my kitchen is basically a glorified closet; very small.  

How in the world do you bury them in the earth without dirt getting in?  

There were bubbles this last batch I made; when I opened up the jar, it was actually fizzing, like champagne!  You leave them a month?  I've been doing 3 days.  Should I leave them longer?

I find the 1 tablespoon to 1 cup of water too salty.  That's the recipe I have in my book, but I remember now that I cut that down in the past, as I found them inedible, even when rinsed.  

I've been using pint jars, and I can't find anything to weigh down the cukes so they stay in the brine.  I just dug out my big jar that's probably a quart, and jammed the cukes in so they can't float.  But once I pull one out, that will change.

Interesting about not cutting them.  Some just won't fit otherwise.  Now that I remember it, those pickles of lore and legend from my childhood deli were whole.  The old Jewish guy who owned the place would ask, "You vant a peekle?" He'd fish one out and wrap it in a piece of waxed deli paper, so you could eat it without getting your hand messy.   Nice memories of times people today just wouldn't understand.  I also remember going into the candy store (right next to the deli!) and putting my hands in (up to the elbows!) the ice water in the soda bottle cooler.  And the guy would always yell, "Hey you kid, get'ya hands outta da wahda!"  Yup, no electric coolers back then, not for soda!  And all the soda came in glass bottles, which we return for the deposit.  They refilled them; none of this recycling crapola.  Why do they have to melt them down each time?  Just refill them!  Some of the bottles had been used so many times, the labels were faded off.  Labels were printed on the bottles, not paper.  Better days, in a lot of ways.  

When I was a teen-ager, my father and I made 15 jars of salt brine, naturally fermented cucumber pickles in the Fall, with fresh, newly-harvested, crisp small pickling cucumbers.

I wrote down the recipe and all its steps of production and still have it.  One thing we found as critical, was to thoroughly wash and scrub the cucumbers with a scrub brush to remove any earth, and then soak them for half an hour in ice water (water with a lot of ice cubes)--before doing anything further with them.

More recently (now that I am 80), I told my 13-year-old grand daughter I used to make pickles.

She likes to bake, cook and experiment-- and asked me to teach her- working alongside her making my own jar while she made hers.

I purchased 2 basic "pickle kits"  for us, made by Mason Jars, that includes a jar, screw-on plastic ring cap, and a silicone rubber gas check that is flat, makes a tight fit over the top edge of the jar mouth, and has what looks like a small nipple in the middle. The nipple is scored with an X at the very tip, and is designed to allow pressure of gas from fermentation to escape as it is produced, but contracts and self-closes when pressure stabilizes--to prevent entry of outside air.

The kit also includes a heavy-duty glass weight  with a molded glass handle on top, and is the same outside diameter as the inside diameter of the mouth of the Mason large-mouth jar.

My pickle jar produced perfect, crisp pickles. But the only dill I could buy was small bottles of dried powdered dill leaves, or small fresh-cut sprigs of dill stems and leaves. As it turned out, neither provided the strong dill flavor I remembered from my youth, when we purchased and used freshly-harvested dill plants , with stiff stems, leaves and flower heads, in the late Summer/early Fall

My grand daughter's pickles turned out good, she said--but grew what she thought was mold on the surface of the brine, and she discarded the batch

I made two sets of salt brine pickles over the past couple of months.  The first bottles  sat in the coolest place in the house (a basement shower stall with the bathroom door closed and lights off.)  

They were crisp and delicious after two weeks, and I transferred them to the fridge.

The second batch I put immediately in the fridge, and checked them every couple of days. After two weeks, they had not started fermenting and had not changed from dark green to light green. The fridge was too cold to start and continue fermentation.

So I moved them to the basement shower stall, and they immediately began fermenting.  I should note that I had also used some other, smaller wide-mouth jars with metal lids, and just turned down the lids with a little space left to allow for overflow of the brine and release of gases.  

The jars were set on  an enameled metal baking pan to catch the overflow.  

I also had to buy a set of 4  Mason plastic caps for the jars, as the kits only came with ring closures that held the silicone gas release cover strips in place-- not designed for permanent storage of the pickles after fermenting.  I purchased the caps  from the same store where I bought the Mason pickle kits, sold in a box of four.  

As I was now using several non-Mason brand jars,  I needed more glass weights. I found them on Amazon, a box of four imported from China by Country Trading Company. The box says they are for wide mouth jars made by Ball and by Kilner. They are heavy-duty cast clear glass with a square handle on top. They are designed in New Zealand and imported into Canada.     For more info go to www.countrytrading.co       They are located in Stoke, New Zealand.

As I was unable to purchase mature dill plants with stiff stems, leaves and flower heads in July, I purchased organic Tunisian  dill seeds from Organic Matters, in Nelson, British Columbia, Canada.  I have not tried this batch of pickles yet, but am hoping the dill seeds (several tablespoons of them per jar) will generate the dill flavor I am after.

Bruce Koffler       bkoffler@securesearchinc.com

Welcome to the forum, Bruce.

Thank you for sharing your pickle experiences.

Hi Laura,
We have had a large batch of olives sitting in the dark for over 5 years which has a mother (white fungus) sitting on top of it, and do pickled mini cucumbers.  We use a mix of salt, sugar, and vinegar
3/4 lb brown sugar
3/4 lb sea salt
3 bayleaves
1 tsp each of whole cloves, peppercorns, juniper berries (pimento)
4 pints if water
1 pint vinegar
Bring to the boil and allow to cool
Put blanched cucumber into sterilised jars, top up with liquid and seal

Blanching the vegetables sanitises the skin and softens it a bit.
Ensure that blanched vegetables go straight into iced water to stop the cooking process.

We use the same mix plus 2 oz of sodium nitrite when pickling beef, lamb or pork belly.

Cleanliness is an absolute when doing any preserve.
Hope this helps.

it's fun to see this old thread come up. i had similar pickle troubles about that long ago as well, and found that in my environment i can only let them ferment for about 24 hours, maybe less depending on the season, and then they need to get vinegar added right away and go into the fridge. And still they keep fermenting.
I have found that where I am, a refrigerator pickle is the only thing that will give me the snap of a dill pickle I want.
As for those pickles made in the 1960s in NY without air conditioning- I not quite that old, but my mother's family is from that area and had a hotel/kosher restaurant from the 1920s (maybe earlier, not sure), their pickles were kept in a basement. Think wine cellar. they made vast quanities of sauerkraut, pickled onions, and cucumber pickles to last the whole year. Any deli that had its own building probably was also using its basement to store their pickles.

Have you looked at Chinese pickling jars or a Harsh crock? Both have a rim that you fill with water to create an air lock that help prevent mold growth. You can add to the ferment or just run through the batch you start with. I have a clear Chinese pickling jar on the counter that I use and add vegetables to. No reason it couldn't be dedicated to cukes.

I did about twelve gallons of pickles last year and I am still eating them. They are perfect.

I just lacto-fermented them. Put them into jars with 5% saltwater and some herbs thrown in. My root cellar was under construction so the jars stood in the woodshed for months. The only important thing is to keep the cucumbers underwater.

I think we have a tendency to overthink. Fermenting is so simple.