• Post Reply Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
  • New Topic
permaculture forums growies critters building homesteading energy monies kitchen purity ungarbage community wilderness fiber arts art permaculture artisans regional education skip experiences global resources cider press projects digital market permies.com pie forums private forums all forums
this forum made possible by our volunteer staff, including ...
master stewards:
  • Carla Burke
  • Nancy Reading
  • John F Dean
  • r ranson
  • Jay Angler
  • paul wheaton
stewards:
  • Pearl Sutton
  • Leigh Tate
  • Devaka Cooray
master gardeners:
  • Christopher Weeks
  • Timothy Norton
gardeners:
  • thomas rubino
  • Matt McSpadden
  • Jeremy VanGelder

Will Sheep Improve Very Poor Pasture/Soil

 
Posts: 95
2
2
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I've never had farm animals except chickens which I got 6 mos ago. Now I want to tend sheep. But my soil is spent (as proven by soil testing/analysis) as this land was truck farmed for decades and obviously the previous farmers didn't do anything to maintain the soil. With only 5 sheep per acre will they build the soil back up without other inputs? If so, how long should I expect that to take? I assume I'll have to supplement their diet heavily. Any insights or recommendations are appreciated.
 
steward
Posts: 16100
Location: USDA Zone 8a
4280
dog hunting food preservation cooking bee greening the desert
  • Likes 4
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Paul, that is a great question.

I am assuming these will be free-range sheep that are not kept in a pen.

I have never raised sheep, only goats.

Over time they may help the soil though I want to suggest that you plant something that will improve the soil while feeding the sheep.

One such plant is the Birdsfoot trefoil which is a nitrogen-fixing legume that is great for the soil. As a forage, it is beneficial to the sheep.

I am interested in the thoughts of others on this.
 
Posts: 1510
110
  • Likes 5
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
like Anne says if you can get nitrogen fixers to grow that would be a great start and would be something good for sheep to eat if you can get cover crops that are nitrogen fixers to grow for a year before getting sheep. buying sheep food I'm guessing could get quite expensive.
I would get a few pounds each of clover, cowpea, field pea, alfalfa , buckwheat and vetch And rake it into soil and see what grows best. but if you get this to grow you could be well on your way to having nutritional pasture for grazing animals while at the same time building up the fertility of your soil.  but I'm no expert maybe you could contact your local extension agent for what might be best at your exact location.
 
master pollinator
Posts: 1754
Location: Ashhurst New Zealand (Cfb - oceanic temperate)
534
duck trees chicken cooking wood heat woodworking homestead
  • Likes 13
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Short answer: It's complicated.

Longer answer: Grazing livestock will improve almost any pasture system if done correctly. There is a wealth of information out there about different ways to do this, but most "permie" and regenerative methods converge on the principles that mimic the functions of a temperate prairie or subtropical savannah.

Basically, if you have a huge expanse of grassland and herds of herbivores on it, they will bunch up in their social groups and move around according to feed quality, water availability, predator pressure, seasonal shifts, and fire. This creates a constantly changing patchwork of disturbance and recovery, which in turn promotes diversity in the pasture makeup and more biological activity in the soil.

So, if you had a massive farm or ranch and set-stocked it (no subdivision, no internal fences, animals go where they like) you could pretty much let natural factors do the driving. But if any of them are missing, you will get degraded pasture and soils...maybe not across the whole landscape, but definitely in parts. This could be because the livestock congregate in certain areas and ignore others, or because the numbers are out of whack. The cycles of disturbance and recovery get muted or distorted, diversity goes down, and things get stuck.

This is why most regenerative farmers fence their land off into smaller paddocks and shift the animals frequently. The idea is to keep them moving so that every time they get into a new break, they have a variety of enticing forage to choose from and the concentration of hooves breaks and tramples some of the vegetation to feed the soil. Getting the numbers right means that there's a decent rest and regrowth period before the herd returns to a paddock. And moving them on before they chew it down to the boards leaves more biomass in the system, especially the root mass that is proportional to what's above the surface.

We're doing this on a tiny farm, with less than two acres of grazing area. It's now subdivided into ten mini paddocks and the sheep and alpaca get rotated on about a weekly basis during the growing season, stretching out to two or so in the winter when they're getting hay supplements. It's already making a difference compared to the previous system, which had a steer moving around four paddocks from September-May and a winter rest with only a couple of alpacas on the land. Lots more species showing up in the sward, especially legumes now that I've corralled the chickens, better growth in general, and less water on the surface after periods of heavy rain.

I've also seen some extreme examples of how larger farms have been remade simply by going to more subdivision and mob grazing. I visited one last autumn and the contrast between the lush, productive pasture versus the close-cropped, thistle and rush-strewn neighbouring farms was stark. The owners achieved this with low inputs, no reseeding, and simply moving the stock more frequently. They're now adding trees to the mix: alley cropping with rows aligned north-south, to allow maximum sun.

My advice would be to get some sheep on there, subdivide as much as you can, and move them often. You could oversow with mixed pasture species, especially legumes (clover, lotus, vetch) and forbs (chicory, plantain, amaranth) to get the diversity up, or you could just wait and see what happens as the ground gets worked over and the seed bank responds. All kinds of things might happen and they're likely to be an improvement on the status quo.
 
pollinator
Posts: 3859
Location: Kent, UK - Zone 8
705
books composting toilet bee rocket stoves wood heat homestead
  • Likes 4
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Phil Stevens wrote:Short answer: It's complicated.

Longer answer: Grazing livestock will improve almost any pasture system if done correctly. There is a wealth of information out there about different ways to do this, but most "permie" and regenerative methods converge on the principles that mimic the functions of a temperate prairie or subtropical savannah.



I'm going to emphasis the IF in this statement. When we first acquired our land we inherited a mutually beneficial arrangement with a local farmer who ran some of her sheep on it, in exchange for us getting half a lamb a couple of times per year. We had a couple of bad years where the grazing went wrong, mostly through our own lack of understanding.

Here in the UK grass grows vigorously while the soil is moist and the weather warm. Under those conditions our land can stock a large number of sheep. But in a prolonged dry spell, or over winter, the sheep will rapidly graze the grass short, and allow opportunistic weeds to germinate. In our case we were utterly overrun with thistles the following spring, and it took ages to get them under control, and lots of manual pulling of plants over 6 acres.

Since then we have been much more direct with the farmer about when we are happy to have sheep on the land, and remove them for months at a time when the conditions are not suitable. In practice this means that our own land is in good condition, but I have seen that her home paddock where she keeps them the rest of the time is consistently overgrazed.

The lesson we learned is that while grazing can be beneficial, the ground needs careful management, and decent rest period to recover. If I was home more consistently and had more time I would probably aim for rotational grazing with dense but very short term stocking of small areas. This is shown to promote vigorous growth, and allows species time to flower and set seed, in comparison to allowing access to the whole acreage at once.
 
pollinator
Posts: 369
Location: Appalachian Mountains
177
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I would put  nutrient for the soil first, and let it recover BEFORE putting sheep on it.  Otherwise nothing worthwhile is going to grow.  Then you can plant seeds and allow them a few weeks or months to grow before adding stock. A hay mulch can help as it will keep the soil moist and break down into further nutrients and organic matter the soil needs.  There is a reason the soil seems depleted, it is.  No matter how much hay and grain you feed the sheep, they will try to graze that pasture.  So it needs to at least have a head start.  Subdividing into paddocks is great, as it allows the land to rest and plants to put down roots before being cropped off again.  Hungry sheep will overgraze and damage it even further.  When they eat the tops, it root prunes the bottom of Forbes and that turns to compost, so the short answer is yes, grazing animals can improve the land, IF they are properly managed.  But if it is already short or nothing much growing there, that cannot happen.  

Good luck with your adventures.  
 
gardener
Posts: 2217
Location: Central Maine (Zone 5a)
910
homeschooling kids trees chicken food preservation building woodworking homestead
  • Likes 4
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Hi Paul,
I am going to have to disagree a bit with the idea that you should improve the soil before putting sheep on it. I do think you should do more than just sheep. I think you should absolutely look at reseeding with specific plants. I do think you should offer free choice minerals to the sheep so they can make up whatever is missing in the soil. I do think you should run chickens through for manure variety. Having the sheep there (and chickens too), will change things and can make long dormant seeds germinate that were just waiting for the right circumstances.

I heard Jack Spirko quote Ben Faulk that adding sheep to his pastures did more to help in one year than all the pure plant based things he had done in the previous 7 years combined. Animals are part of a healthy eco system. I think you should get animals back on there as soon as you can. Just know that you may only be able to graze them one time each year right now as things recover. You may need to supplement the feed some while the pasture gets better. As you build soil health, you may be able to have them on the same spot several times a year. It is a learning process, and you might mess it up. The next year you will get better. But my opinion is that you would be better off learning and making mistakes with sheep now, rather than waiting.
 
steward
Posts: 4837
Location: West Tennessee
2438
cattle cat purity fungi trees books chicken food preservation cooking building homestead
  • Likes 7
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Before I comment, I want to briefly add a quote from Phil's post above:

Phil Stevens wrote: ... if done correctly.



Phil's post above is excellent, and I just want to play on it. I raise cows, not sheep, but they're similar as they mostly graze ground growing forages and browse a little shrubbery and tree leaves. One difference they have in direct impact to forages is cows only have one row of front teeth, and they pull forage into their mouth with their tongue, then bite and pull. Sheep have two rows of front teeth and can bite closer to the soil surface than a cow. This means sheep have the potential to overgraze a paddock worse than cows, even possibly denuding a soil.

Like Phil's post, it's all about management, and keeping the animals on the move. Some say it takes three days for a grazed grass to begin regrowth, and that's the number I use on my farm. During the growing season, my cows are in a paddock for three days, then I move them. Always. Even if there is what appears to the eye to be ungrazed grasses which some of my neighbors may interpret as "wasteful". It is anything but that. By me moving my cows, all the forages in a paddock get to rest, allowing time to not only regrow above the surface of the soil, but to also store carbohydrate energy in their root systems for the next grazing. Grass regrowth energy comes from stored energy in the roots, and it's very important to allow time (generally three weeks but it varies) for a grass to build back up the energy stores in their roots after a grazing. Failure to do this results in weakened grasses or in a worst case scenario from repeated overgrazing is grass die-out. Nature will rapidly fill the void of dying grasses with other things, sometimes things that grazing animals don't want to graze. Rotational grazing done correctly, which is allowing for rest, stimulates grasses and other forages such as legumes to spread and improves pastures.

On my farm, I move my cows every 3 days, and it is usually 4-5 weeks before the cows have run a full circle circuit and are back grazing the first paddock again. In the spring when cool-season grasses grow rapidly, my cows can't keep up so I mow to keep the grasses tender and higher in protein instead of letting them get stemmy and go to seed. In the summer, I don't need to mow the warm-season grasses to maintain anything.

There is another benefit to this type of rotational grazing I will mention, and it breaks the parasite cycles in grazing animals. Many adult parasites come out in animal poop, lay eggs in the soil, where they hatch and then the larvae crawl up grasses and other forages waiting to be ingested by a cow, repeating the cycle. If too much time lapses, the larvae die, thus breaking the cycle. Similar things with sheep too, but may I suggest looking into sheep parasite cycles to make sure rotational grazing is done accordingly to break those parasite cycles as I am not familiar with sheep parasites.

Paul Ladendorf wrote:With only 5 sheep per acre will they build the soil back up without other inputs?



It will build up the soil biology, but it will not increase soil mineral content. Soil biology is what makes soil minerals available for plants to use, so increasing soil biology can help make available minerals in the soil that are otherwise less available in lower biological numbers.

 I assume I'll have to supplement their diet heavily.



Maybe not. I do suggest they have a mineral appropriate for sheep available free choice.

 
Posts: 15
1
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
If you have put 5 sheep on a piece of land, they will consume the nutrients that are present and will return them, less some of the carbon dioxide they breath out.  So you have really no net gain to the soil and a loss if you take away any wool or meat produced by those 5 sheep.  

Now if you put 10 sheep onto the land, you will need to feed those sheep extra feed, so now you have added back to the land the nutrients you have feed, less any wool or meat removed.  Because the land size is the same, at the end of a length of time the land will have more nutrients.

If you have the 5 sheep and put on the land organic matter equal to the amount the extra 5 sheep would consume, you will have even greater improvement, because you did not remove  any wool or meat the extra 5 sheep would have produced.

Depending on the organic matter you put the land will depend on the speed of improvement of the land.
 
Matt McSpadden
gardener
Posts: 2217
Location: Central Maine (Zone 5a)
910
homeschooling kids trees chicken food preservation building woodworking homestead
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
@ Neil
Apparently I am coming from a different angle on this than some others. While I think it would be good to supplement, there are a couple things to keep in mind. First is that having the sheep eating the plants and doing their business all over will create a different set of circumstances which may make different plants germinate or grow better. Second, is that the manure will have micro organisms in it that will help the soil to become alive. There is a very good chance this will increase the availability of minerals in the soil, which will in turn change how things grow (most likely for the better). These two benefits will happen even if you are not supplementing.
 
pollinator
Posts: 773
Location: Western MA, zone 6b
481
cat dog forest garden foraging urban food preservation
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Sheep are good at spreading some seeds,  and adding decomposed material to the soil.    But like mentioned,  adding nutrients have to come from somewhere, usually their feed.   If you rotational graze,  they can help you keep longer pasture so the soil isn't exposed to sunlight, and moisture retention will also help improve.   It will also help them graze everything more consistently instead of going back to their favorite things and cropping it too short repeatedly.   Keeping seedheads cropped will help pasture plants live longer and develop stronger roots, and slow down some of the undesirable things.    I think sheep CAN be a real benefit but I think others are probably right in that adding cover crops, mineral accumulators to bring things to the surface, nitrogen fixers to the polyculture etc. will really be the way to get the best results.

Also,  type of sheep matter.   My hair sheep were browsers as much as grazers, and preferred shrubby stuff, poison ivy, larger leafed forbs, but I know folks with some wool sheep breeds who just won't eat that stuff and prefer grassy pastures.  

 
Neil Micke
Posts: 15
1
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I remember reading that the land had been mined by the previous owners as a truck farm.  Every carrot, head of lettuce and other produce removed a certain amount of phosphorus, potash and other minerals.   Simply putting sheep on the land will not replace the lost nutrients, especially if wool and meat are also sold off the land.  The plants on the land will change, but the best plants for sheep will not prosper if they do not have the proper minerals to grow those plants.  Land that is low in pH will require added lime to neutralize the acids that keep the grasses and legumes from growing.

I rented some land that grew nothing but sour dock, golden rod with very little grass or legumes including white clover.  The land was originally broken from a white pine forest.  The owner had farmed it for 30 years and only put on dairy cow manure in rotation.   The first soil test showed pH of 5, potassium in below the extreme low level and the phosphorus also in the below extreme low level.  This nice loamy soil had the nutritive value of beach sand.

My first crop of corn( back in the early 1970's)  got to shoulder high with yields of 65 at the best and below 30 at the poorest.  Can you imagine running a corn picker in well below freezing weather for several hours to fill a 120 bushel gravity box?  It is really discouraging.

After many tons of limestone, lots of added commercial fertilizer, plenty of dairy cow manure,  the corn yields exceeded the county average by 30-50 bushels and recently the hay that came off the land was judged the best in the US by the World Dairy Expo.   Cost to get to profitable land, tremendous, profits double or triple the costs.   Fortunately we had some productive land that could subsidize the improvement of the rented land which is now part of the farm.

All said and done, the land will need inputs to bring it back to its native productivity.   The sheep will just change the ecosystem, but will only make marginal changes with out some serious changes to the soil nutrients that were mined by the truck farm.
 
Posts: 16
  • Likes 3
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Hi, I have goats and sheep and in sizeable numbers as well as cattle. I am a full-time farmer. They can improve ground if you handle them correctly. You can also destroy ground if you don't. Move frequently, don't overgraze. Don't worry about missing nutrients. Most are replenished with rest. My own ground has been farmed since the 1800s. It is a gradual thing... don't expect a jungle thicket overnight.
 
M Smythe
Posts: 16
  • Likes 3
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Dumping fertilizer on dead ground is like lighting dollar bills on fire. If you want to go broke, this is an excellent way to do it.
 
Posts: 10
8
  • Likes 8
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Hi there,

I know this post is a bit old but I just thought I'd chime in. I raise 5 dairy sheep (plus their lambs in spring) on about 3 acres pasture. I started with goats back in 2011 and the soil was rocky, dry, and lacking OM. All that grew here was loads of mustard and wild barley grass. Fast forward to last year I was able to go the whole growing season with no hay! My soil will take most seed I give it with glee, whereas before my seed never germinated. It has taken this long but I have fast tracked the soil improvement in the past 3 years by doing these things:
1. Wait until the pasture has around a ft of growth and your legumes have flowers that are dying before letting them in to eat. Grass on the other hand should be in the vegetative growth. Once grass has gone to seed it's done for that season and not dairy quality. Think shiny and very green.
2. Overseed the pasture with a diverse mix of seed before letting the animals in to graze. It could be seeds that won't even grow during that particular season. No worries. They will germinate when the time is right. Hooves are very good at planting and the seed bank will always be diverse.
3. Take them out when pasture is around 6 inches tall
4. Use electro net to give them enough grazing for 8 hrs, then take them out and put them to bed. Better to move them twice or take them out early and feed hay then to overgraze. They don't need to eat again until morning. The book Kick the Hay Habit talks extensively about this topic.
5. Provide kelp/minerals at all times while their on the pasture. They will mineralize the soil for you.
6. Never, ever, ever let them in while it's raining or if the soil is soggy. They will damage it and recovery will be unbearably long. Also don't let them in a new spot if the pasture has frost on it. Wait until the soil dries out a bit when the sun starts shining.
7. Throw one flake of hay into their new spot early in the spring each day, to make up for the lack of pasture litter and to provide dry matter. I noticed that they won't eat very much of the super lush grass in the spring without nibbling that flake first/in between. Otherwise you won't get enough grazing pressure.
8. Make sure they have plenty of water. They need water to mix with the plant material in the rumen to digest food properly. Same reason as above.

Hope this helps! Sheep are called the Golden Footed animal for a reason. Happy New Year!
 
yeah, but ... what would PIE do? Especially concerning this tiny ad:
permaculture and gardener gifts (stocking stuffers?)
https://permies.com/wiki/permaculture-gifts-stocking-stuffers
reply
    Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
  • New Topic