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concerns with using cardboard/newspaper as a mulch

paul wheaton

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posted 16 years ago

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Just a few months ago I was asked to take a look at a site and give my opinion.

There was an apple tree that had very few weeds under it and the tree looked sickly. When I asked about this, the owner told me about how she cleverly beat out the weeds by laying newspaper down and then covering it with a bit of dirt - now the tree did not have to compete with those weeds!

And y'all know how I feel about this practice so I was thinking this was connected to the problem. So we dug down a bit. About an inch deep we found the newspaper. About a quarter of an inch thick. We could steal read some words on it. It was all back and white newspaper - the color inks contain toxins.

This newspaper had been laid down five years previously.

It is my obnoxious opinion that the newspaper did, indeed, beat the weeds, and it also cut off all air and water to the roots of the apple tree under the newspaper. So the only air and water available to the tree where where the tree's roots extended beyond the newspaper.

As to the carboard or paper being made from tree cellulose alone - I've heard this before and did some of my own research and came back from the research more convinced than ever that I choose to not use newspaper or carboard in my projects. I guess it would be far more helpful to you all if I took better notes on that journey.

Susan Monroe

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Location: Western WA

posted 16 years ago

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But WHY did the paper not break down? In the desert, you would think at least the termites would eat it. In wetter areas, you would think the paper would absorb moisture, and soil microbes would go to work on it.

That's very peculiar! What part of the country was this in?

It sounds more like the soil was dead. I wonder if she had applied herbicide under the tree to kill the weeds first, then laid down the paper?

There aren't supposed to be any newspapers now that have toxic colors, as they're supposed to be soy-based so they can be recycled. I don't know that the same can be said of all printing inks, though.

Sometimes we have to be careful about attributing certain causes to certain situations. If my chickens disappeared, it might be goblins, or it might be spirits, or it might be foxes, or it might be a neighbor.

Sue

Jocelyn Campbell

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posted 16 years ago

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Hi Sue, Paul was looking at the ground under my grandmother's sickly apple tree here in the suburbs of Seattle. The tree is positioned next to her raised vegetable beds on the south end of the lot which gets sun only because it is facing the street - otherwise the lot and the neighborhood are quite shady with lots of tall evergreens.

My grandma (93 and still living and gardening on her own!) gardens mostly organic, but has used tree spikes for the tree - likely chemical - and doesn't use herbicides that I'm aware of. I've worked her garden for her in the past, and I know her methods. Lots of composting, lots of mulching, and pulling weeds or digging out the invasive salal or blackberries if needed. She probably uses too much wood chip mulch around some things, but it's free and she's one of those Depression-era frugal folks, if you know what I mean.

The soil was quite damp, and still alive. The paper just seemed to mat up and petrify into a solid barrier under the wood chips. I'm pretty sure there was probably still grass or plant matter under the paper, though I can't recall if she added compost under the paper, or between the paper and the wood chips. The wood chip mulch on top of the paper was composting and beginning to grow plants - that's how long it had been there.

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Susan Monroe

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posted 16 years ago

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But WHY would it not rot? If she's got moisture, oxygen, microbes and earthworms, WHAT is preventing decomposition? If the newspaper was shutting off oxygen or moisture, there wouldn't be worms or other insects.

To me, that is a real puzzle. Maybe whatever is preventing the breakdown of matter is also the problem with the tree. I'm just saying that cause and effect aren't always what they seem to be, so I wouldn't be in a hurry to attribute a certain cause to a condition without more information, esp when so many other people have good results using the same methods.

Has anyone sent a soil sample to a good lab? If the newspaper and chips have robbed the soil of nitrogen, it should show up in a soil test. But I have always understood that high-carbon sources just sitting on the surface and not mixed in wouldn't be much of a threat to nitrogen levels. Unless maybe there was a serious nitrogen shortage prior to application of the paper and chips???

I don't even bother with newspaper anymore because it breaks down too fast to be much good. I use corrugated cardboard, 6-ply when I can get it, and it won't even last a full year. And I DO have a shortage of available nitrogen, my last soil test indicates.

'Tis a puzzlement!

Sue

paul wheaton

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posted 16 years ago

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This was about a quarter of an inch thick. Maybe a third of an inch thick in places.

In order for it to break down, it would need nitrogen, water, oxygen and microbial activity. Assuming it has some toxic glues in it, I would think that some of your normal microbes/mycelium would find it distasteful. Further, only the top can be decomposed - the bottom would be too dry, low in air and low in N. Since there is a little slope right there, the water is going to run right off.

To break down something that is almost 100% carbon will take a bit of nitrogen. And there probably isn't all that much finding its way there.

(I just had a thought - maybe the best use for old newspaper is as a form of roofing!)

Nancy Reading

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I merged your stuff with the following thread. I hope that is okay by you.

How Permies works: https://permies.com/wiki/34193/permies-works-links-threads
My projects on Skye: The tree field, Growing and landracing, perennial polycultures, "Don't dream it - be it! "

paul wheaton

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posted 16 years ago

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Over the last week or two, I've done a bit of research on this topic.

I feel I need to push my notes out while it is still fresh in my head.

First, it is possible to make newspaper/cardboard that would be safe (by my standards) for gardens. But most use chemicals that I am not comfortable with.

This is a massive area of study. Somebody could fill a few chapters in a book on this. So I'm gonna take some shortcuts and say:

1) the wood lignins that make up most paper could get okay paper with mechanical smashing, but better paper comes from a chemical process. Hence, chemical process is preferred. Some papers/cardboards contain a lot more gick (to make it look nice longer) than what folks will usually see for mulch.

2) Cardboard is usually several layers of paper glued together (or a very thick paper) sandwiching a corrugated layer of paper. These layers are glued together. Usually the glue is corn starch based - enhanced with a variety of petroleum chemicals.

Another problem is that newspaper/cardboard tends to not break down particularly fast. And since the mission is usually to smother something that is already there, it is placed in sheets. If too thick, it could make a layer that cannot be penetrated by water or air - maybe for many years.

Last spring I visited somebody's garden where an apple tree was doing poorly. After digging around a little, a layer of newspaper was found about an inch under the soil. It was about a quarter of an inch thick and had apparently been put down to kill weeds about five years earlier. It killed the weeds. And it was making the tree sick. And it wasn't breaking down.

If anyone is tempted to use newspaper or cardboard, I would like to suggest using organic hay or straw instead.

Joel Hollingsworth

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posted 16 years ago

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Okay on the shortcuts, but let me say this:

Many modifiers are mineral, not petrochemical. Glossy paper tends to have chalk or bentonite, the starch paste might be modified with lye (much as soap is...not very toxic or long-lived) and/or borax (mild but persistent toxin).

Lignin doesn't play a positive role in most paper. Most of the processes that seem purely mechanical have a hidden biochemical aspect. Even when they are chemical processes, the chemicals used are usually byproducts of papermaking i.e. sourced, ultimately, from trees. For example, the lye for Kraft paper is made by burning wood leachate ("black liquor" to a papermaker), rather than leaching wood ashes (traditional processes, in reverse order).

I could imagine a layer of gley forming from most any mulch. Glad to hear the problem was solved in that instance! I think the real key is to keep observing.

"the qualities of these bacteria, like the heat of the sun, electricity, or the qualities of metals, are part of the storehouse of knowledge of all men. They are manifestations of the laws of nature, free to all men and reserved exclusively to none." SCOTUS, Funk Bros. Seed Co. v. Kale Inoculant Co.

paul wheaton

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posted 16 years ago

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And it goes on and on and on .... an industry rich with different ways of doing things.

I think another important thing to keep in mind is that some cardboard/newspaper is more toxic than others - and there isn't an easy way to tell the difference.

As for lye: that stuff always gives me the willies. Granted, after a chemical reaction with the right stuff, it can be very inert. But just because one reaction leaves it pretty harmless doesn't mean that all reactions with it would. I choose to be nervous about it until I know more.

While it is true that some of the modifiers are not petroleum based, my impression is that most are. Further, some of the glues used are not corn starch based, but are chemical based - and I would guess that this would be petroleum based also.

Sheesh, what a mess .... so I guess the big thing to me is: there is enough funky stuff going on here so that I steer clear. And I understand that in the permaculture world I am in the minority on this one. Most permaculture folks are not concerned (including Sepp Holzer, Bill Mollison and Paul Stamets).

Leah Sattler

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posted 16 years ago

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I prefer hay for alot of reasons. for me most of it is just practical. I don't have loads of paper. definitly not enough to mulch a large area with. Hay I can usually come by in large quantities and often have lots leftover waste from the critters. anyway. with paper/cardboard i think in smallish quantities there is little worry about most, if any, lingering chemicals. but as with anything, a large amount could simply overwhelm natures system for dealing with normal amounts of substances. layers of paper can form a pretty good water and vapor barrier too.

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Brenda Groth

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posted 16 years ago

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a few questions that I wonder if your research may have answered.

first..are food grade containers made of less toxic materials..such as cereal boxes and the like? I run those through my paper shredder ..that brings us to question # 2

two...would they break down more quickly run through a paper shredder?

i run my junk maiil and food grade cardboard through paper shredder and apply around perennial crops and plants..such as around the berry bushes..etc..

i don't ever use just paper alone..i'll mix layers of paper with layers of mulch of plants products and manure..

Brenda

Bloom where you are planted.
http://restfultrailsfoodforestgarden.blogspot.com/

Brenda Groth

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posted 16 years ago

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one other thought..ok..if we shred the paper and mix it with other compostables..such as the dead plants, leaves, pine needles, manure, etc..would it maybe be better to pull the mulch off in the spring..and mix it..and then reapply it?

Brenda

Bloom where you are planted.
http://restfultrailsfoodforestgarden.blogspot.com/

John Meshna

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Location: Vermont

posted 16 years ago

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My answer is yes. Mold, bug eggs and disease can winter over in the garden so picking up the old stuff and composting it before reapplying it as compost is a good idea. Make sure it's a good, hot composting process to kill off any unwanted pathogens, bug eggs etc..
With some plants like asparagus, berry bushes etc. you're better off raking out all the dead tops and mulch in the fall and refreshing it with new material in the spring to prevent reintroducing "rust" fungus.

John Meshna (owner)
Blue River LLC
1195 Dog Team Road
New Haven, Vt 05472

paul wheaton

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posted 16 years ago

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I have not read anything anywhere that suggests that food grade cardboard is any better. I would speculate that it's worse: non yellowing - chemicals to preserve the bright colors - chemicals (petroleum wax) to keep the box from getting soggy. In "the omnivore's dilemma" the author mentions that mcdonalds packaging contains butane (lighter fluid) in its packaging to keep the package sound. He also mentions how toxic the butane is. And then (if I recall correctly) that there are a lot of other gross things in the packaging.

John Meshna

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posted 16 years ago

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You do have to be concerned about the packaging material. Some things are still made with toxic material as you pointed out. It's one reason I never used or recommended hydro-seeding when I was in the landscaping business. They say the mulch is made from newspaper with soy inks but how can you tell? There's no testing agency or standards for it.
I was in the news paper recycling business for s short time too. We used to collect newspaper from major and minor newspapers around Vermont and shredded them and put that material though a John Deere bailer to make bales of mulch for dairy farmers. We had to sort everything because people consistently disrespected the process and put everything from garbage to metal cans in the newspaper. Some of the newspaper came from regional collections around the state from home owners and that stuff was the worst for contamination.

John Meshna (owner)
Blue River LLC
1195 Dog Team Road
New Haven, Vt 05472

Jami McBride

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Location: PNW Oregon

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posted 16 years ago

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I really appreciate this information. I didn't know all this about paper and thought it was a relatively clean resource. Seems all we hear about is recycle, but there is a downside to re-using man's modern waste items, and it's good to be reminded.

Thanks,

~Jami

Joel Hollingsworth

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posted 16 years ago

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paul wheaton wrote:
petroleum wax) to keep the box from getting soggy...butane (lighter fluid) in its packaging to keep the package sound. He also mentions how toxic the butane is.

Petroleum wax composts easily and completely, as long as there is fibrous material nearby to keep it wet. It is among the least toxic petrochemicals I know of.

Butane is not very toxic, and the toxicity is short-term rather than cumulative. You will smell it before it becomes a problem for you; kids who huff cooking spray and fuel industry workers are the only ones who should really worry. It doesn't stay in food or packaging for long: the fact that it evaproates so easily is why it's used by the food industry in the first place. Perhaps you mean a different chemical? Or maybe Mr. Pollan has made one of his not-too-rare errors in organic chemistry? I respect his work tremendously, and he does extremely well at checking facts from outside his professional sphere, but he covers so much territory that a few errors get through.

paul wheaton wrote:
some cardboard/newspaper is more toxic than others - and there isn't an easy way to tell the difference.

As for lye: that stuff always gives me the willies...just because one reaction leaves it pretty harmless doesn't mean that all reactions with it would.

The worst thing in my opinion is copper, which will make a sample of the paper burn funky colors. You couldn't ask for a simpler test.

Your reasoning is absolutely sound about lye: the limits to the toxicity of its products isn't proven by just one reaction, it takes a little more chemistry knowledge to understand.

Lye is made of sodium ions and hyroxyl radicals. Hydroxyl free radicals are always present in liquid water, and if they end up in unexpected places (due, e.g., to fermentation

), your body has a whole suite of enzymes to handle them. Sodium atoms, unlike chlorine atoms, don't form covalent bonds with biological chemicals. The bonds they do form are almost purely ionic, which means that water regularly breaks them on its own: no enzymes or other cataylsts needed. In fact, the bond between sodium and biological chemicals is so fast to form and break again that lye and similar compounds are catalysts in their own right, for uses like biodiesel production.

I think it will take less emotional energy for you to investigate a little more, than you would spend worrying about it.

Jami McBride

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posted 16 years ago

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Speaking for myself - I do not 'worry' about it. I burn my plain, no tape/labels, cardboard and paper in my fireplace as I need it. Then I add the wood/paper ashes to my compost pile for more processing *grin*

What does concern me is the push in society to use these things, and others, in substantial amounts, often in place of other more natural choices. Like using much newspaper as mulch in place of leaves or wood chips, because the paper is easy to obtain and you are helping to recycle. It can be easy to forget that newspaper or leaves (off your own trees) are not equal in many ways. This is the part I feel get's forgotten, and where I can appreciate reminding by other like minded people.

Yes it all breaks down, that's not the issue to my way of thinking. Bringing serious amounts of cardboard, newspaper or such. onto one's property brings with it the creation/processing chemicals inside those products, is that self-sustaining? (a personal question we each answer for ourselves). Using some would not be a big deal, but considering it equal as a resource with other carbon sources is what I'm concerned about. We are constantly bombarded with encouragement to use such things, I feel this thread is a good balance, speaking to the other side of the use of paper products.

So I guess it comes down to 'What is Permaculture to you?"

A big part of it for me is 'clean' - striving to get and stay clean, cleaner in every area of my life and that of my family, animals and land. Am I annal and rigid about this - nope! Just a work in progress....

~Jami

Joel Hollingsworth

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Location: Oakland, CA

posted 16 years ago

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CurrentWave wrote:

Yes it all breaks down, that's not the issue to my way of thinking. Bringing serious amounts of cardboard, newspaper or such. onto one's property brings with it the creation/processing chemicals inside those products
~Jami

Oh, okay.

I agree with you: I bring as little paper into my life as possible, though I have consciously decided to use more paper in three instances. First, napkins, because a) water is scarce here, and b) clothes lines are not easy enough where I now live that I would use them for napkins. Second, coffee filters, since partly de-oiled coffee is better for heart health. Third, cotton swab handles, because the plastic ones don't take much less energy to make, and using paper also rescues the cotton fibers.

I recycle any paper that I can: my compost pile eats maybe four pizza boxes, a box of cotton swabs, more napkins and paper towels than I can comfortably imagine, and two bushels of waxed paper (bakery and fast food mostly) per year, precisely because the fibers in these can't be commercially recycled. I certainly don't purchase things to get more compostable carbon! And I was a little uncomfortable with the idea of ordering more junk mail in order to consume the paper, but didn't want to sound judgemental.

Brenda Groth

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posted 16 years ago

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I had a friend read this thread..she lives in Midvale Id and she has used cardboard boxes for mulch in her properties..several as she has moved several times..and she has had really good success..she covers the cardbaord with mulch or compost...she has also had good success with carpeting upside down..but she did say it breaks down much much slower.

Brenda

Bloom where you are planted.
http://restfultrailsfoodforestgarden.blogspot.com/

Brenda Groth

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posted 16 years ago

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second thought today...the cardbaord boxes that I was considering using as a mulch on my garden came from shipping to me trees and plants this spring..and so I was HOPING that the source..plant companies..would have more consideration of what was in their shipping containers.

? maybe not.

I still haven't used them..they are collecting themselves for fire starters for the wood boiler..however..the thought keeps passing my mind to use them between the berry rows..out back..they do say 100 % recycled cardbaord..but..that doesn't mean they didn't add something to them..

well whatever..maybe they'll just go into the fire.

i do continue to use junk mail and food container packages run through my shredder though with no ill effects ..so far.

Brenda

Bloom where you are planted.
http://restfultrailsfoodforestgarden.blogspot.com/

Joel Hollingsworth

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posted 16 years ago

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"100% recycled" means slightly more than "100% natural"...so, not much.

There is no reason to add anything to cardboard. It doesn't need to be lilly-white, it just needs to have a fairly high proportion of reasonably long fibers in it.

The box manufacturer usually prints its name on its products, if you're really concerned. Sounds like there's not enough to raise much concern. And the things I'd worry most about won't be solved with fire...seeing as you spread your ashes on your soil.

Paul's original comment had been about creating anaerobic conditions with impermeable mulch, if I read it right. Sounds like a job for EM, I guess...

paul wheaton

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posted 16 years ago

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This would be a good time to point out that one could create cardboard using 100% mechanical means, plus using organic corn starch for the glue. So, I suppose there could be something called "organic cardboard". Further, as Paul Stamets points out, the seeds of edible plants could be worked into the cardboard. So when you get a package, you can bust open the cardboard and then toss it out on your lawn. A few months/years later you can have all sorts of fun stuff growing there!

Jeremy Bunag

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Location: Central IL

posted 16 years ago

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paul wheaton wrote:
This would be a good time to point out that one could create cardboard using 100% mechanical means, plus using organic corn starch for the glue. So, I suppose there could be something called "organic cardboard". Further, as Paul Stamets points out, the seeds of edible plants could be worked into the cardboard. So when you get a package, you can bust open the cardboard and then toss it out on your lawn. A few months/years later you can have all sorts of fun stuff growing there!

That would be sweet! I wonder how to get this from theoretical to in-practice!

Joel Hollingsworth

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posted 16 years ago

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May I humbly recommend fermentation, rather than 100% mechanical means? And glutinous adhesives (e.g., flour paste), rather than pure starch, as a glue?

If you want to get really fancy, you might consider various plant wastes as the core of your cardboard, rather than corrugate. I think a half-layer of the right sort of straw would work, for example.

Brenda Groth

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posted 16 years ago

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well as i mentined here one time before..i got a gift from canada in 2002 where the tag was imbedded with wildflower seeds..it was cardbaord..and you planted the tag and grew plants..so it has been "being done" for at least 7 years in Canada..at least on a small scale

Brenda

Bloom where you are planted.
http://restfultrailsfoodforestgarden.blogspot.com/

Chris Chaisson

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posted 16 years ago

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My experience has shown me that shredded paper and cardboard work well, especially when well layered with grass clippings for air, nitrogen, and hence . composting.

Soils are also a big factor: sand will be less likely to turn it into gley due to porosity in soil. Clay will be opposite.

We are also working with inoculating the carboard with stropharia mycelium. This seems to be the biggest missing element- overall soil health. especially if you are sheet mulching on tilled or disturbed soil.

As far as contaminants go- watch for shiny and glossy surfaces. compounds will be broke down by mushrooms, but heavy metals will not. grow a mustard crop??

Soil temp is extremely affected by sheetmulch and will not work in northern climates for vegetables other than cold loving crops.

My latest thoughts have been to use a hammer mill to shred the cardboard and place shredded cardboard on top of myceliated cardboard.

check out our east coast mushroom lab:
www.wildbranchmushrooms.com

Pix will come in october.

rose macaskie

Posts: 2134

posted 16 years ago

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jeremy bunag, read paul stamets book if you want to know how to do the sweet idea or write to him and get his innoculatd cardboard off him, he has a trade name, some contributer was talking about this name "fungi perfecti" i think it is. You can read a lot of his book "mycelium running" on the internet, its posted there, look for "mycellium running" paul stamets, and of all the articles on it, choose the one posted by google and you can read enough to learn a awfull lot but not everything. I have just got his book today, great, so now i will be able to read everything and its an easy read. and i loved all i read from the parts of it he has posted on internet. agri rose macaskie.

Jeremy Bunag

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posted 16 years ago

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rose macaskie wrote:
You can read a lot of his book "mycelium running" on the internet, its posted there, look for "mycellium running" paul stamets, and of all the articles on it, choose the one posted by google and you can read enough to learn a awfull lot but not everything. I have just got his book today, great, so now i will be able to read everything and its an easy read. and i loved all i read from the parts of it he has posted on internet. agri rose macaskie.

Alright! Thanks for the book reference. It looks like it's available in the library system (I work at a state university and love to search the state school system for books I want to read!), so I'll add it to my list to read! I've heard of Paul Stamets a lot, and of his Fungi Perfecti, but never really delved too deep...

rose macaskie

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posted 16 years ago

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I have myself felt very doubtfull about using knewspaper, something i started a few years ago and gave up on, i was scared it was not really good for the soil so this forum is great for me. As far as i can make out, the verdict from polyparadigms studies is that its fine, so i can start again, Its easy to pick up a lot of cardboard in the middle of madrid at the paper ryecyling bins when they get over full and the paper gets left outside. My family really don't like me scavenging however, so i wont be able to go full swing at it. rose macaskie.

rose macaskie

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posted 16 years ago

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Have you read the first book of Laura Ingalls Wilder, The Little House In The Big Woods. The story line is a bit boring but they have lots of descriptions of how they used to make things, like how they smoked meat in a hollow tree with a fire made of hickory chips, how father made bullets, how they made butter, maple sugar and butchered the pig and how they ate ate bear steaks and how they made soap. This last ties in to the lye factor in this forum.
They poured water through the ashes they had kept all year from their fire and stove, i suppose and they mixed up the water that came through the ashes, lye, with the fat they had dissolved from some live stock they had killed, if i remember right. I suppose soap making, came after butchering time.
I looked up lye this morning and it said that there is lye you can use for food preserving and other that is for industrial use.
I don't know how lye works in cardboard making, i have not looked up cardboard making yet.
The series of the Laura Ingalls Wilder book was strange, in the books they were usually miles from anywhere and never or nearly never saw any neighbors and if they did they were, keep to yourselves type of people and in the series they had their hands in all the neighbors pies. agri rose macaskie.

Joel Hollingsworth

pollinator

Posts: 2103

Location: Oakland, CA

posted 16 years ago

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Lye plays one major role in making Kraft (brown) paper, which is the bulk of most cardboard produced, and also can be used for some varieties of glue used in corrugate, but this role is minor.

Kraft paper is made by using lye to separate wood into individual fibers, by digesting the substances that hold fibers together. This is almost exactly like the early stages of rotting for wood (the process that makes "punk"), except quicker. The fibers are washed, and the wash water (the jargon word for this is "black liquor") is processed to re-claim the lye used. Because most of the minerals in wood end up outside the wood fibers, this liquor can produce more lye than was added: it has almost all of the minerals added, plus most of the lye that the wood would have produced if it were burned.

Some varieties of paper are digested using acid instead of caustic solutions. These are worse for the environment on several counts, not least of which is the acid continues to attack the fibers, so the printed matter must be replaced and the material even has lost most of its recycling value. In games of "rock, paper, scissors," if someone asks how paper beats rock, I say "sulfate emissions from the paper mill dissolve the rock."

Brenda Groth

pollinator

Posts: 4437

Location: North Central Michigan

posted 16 years ago

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cute observation Rose..that is why her little house was on the prairie or in the big woods..depending on the issue of the books..they did move to a city during part of their lives too so they were closer to people then.

i have the series of books and i find it very interesting how they did homestead their places and yes lye was used to make soap after the butchering season..and it was very dangerous..could really burn you badly.

soap was made that way at home up until very recently by a lot of folks..some still may make it at home..we certainly have enough wood ash from our boiler to do it ourselves..and that is one reason why i ask my husband to be careful what he does with the wood ashes..they can be dangerous to plants..as they can introduce lye..

Brenda

Bloom where you are planted.
http://restfultrailsfoodforestgarden.blogspot.com/

Jennifer Smith

Posts: 720

Location: Zone 5

posted 16 years ago

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As you can see by the photos of the new bed I am using brown paper horse feed sacks as my paper barrier layer. What do you think? It is actually dairy feed so I feel it should be food grade, lol.

Joel Hollingsworth

pollinator

Posts: 2103

Location: Oakland, CA

posted 16 years ago

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The only problem I could see is if they are plastic lined, the way coffee bags and some dogfood bags are. If so, you might plan to pull up the plastic after enough time has passed.

I would guess they're made of kraft paper, one of the lowest-impact sorts of paper. And I'm pretty sure a one-time application won't add much in the way of minerals, even if the glues and dyes were of the worst sorts in current use.

Posts: 106

posted 16 years ago

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have any of you read Joe Jenkins "Humanure" book? It is amazing what thermophilic microbes in a properly heating compost pile can do. he has tested and found they break down chemicals we would never believe could be digested. Newsprint is candy for them. If there is any concern, use it to mulch, then later toss it on the compost pile. I myself have used appliance boxes. they break down fast, I put them in the front of the greenhouse, there is not a trace of cardboard there right now, when it was the worms were thick underneath. I have used hay and straw for mulch and have been so overwhelmed with weeds that I am thinking of getting cardboard from Lowes and putting it along the asparagus row as I just can not weed that much.

rose macaskie

Posts: 2134

posted 16 years ago

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In the country i put ash in the mop bucket to wash the floor with it works a treat. It is also great at oven cleaning type jobs. i have not burnt my hands with it yet maybe i p0ut too much water to ash for it to be really dangerouse. This sort of forum seems to get one talking of very homely types of details.
Though the ingals of the Laura ingals wilder books lived in the town for a winter or two i don't remember them taking a very livley part in their neighbors affairs, just trying not to starve to death and working. agri rose macaskie.

rose macaskie

Posts: 2134

posted 16 years ago

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I have been reading Paul stamets book, the fungi growers use cardboard to feed their fungi and what worries him is if there are dioxin in the cardboard. He says that European an US and Canadian cardboard should be OK, i think he sights some rule that stops them filling cardboard full of plastic, i should look it up and be exact about it but i want to write something else. agri rose macaskie.

I agree. Here's the link: http://stoves2.com